Isn't religion and sprituality supposed to be a POSITIVE thing?

[Armstead]

Call me crazy, but I've always thought that religion and the pursuit of spiritual values was at base a positive drive within people. A search for higher meaning in life. A belief in the connections between people. A quest for the transcendant unity of all life. The cultivation of inner peace and love....Stuff like that.

I realize that organized religious institutions and movements have lways been misused through history as a means to do just the opposite, and to find excuses to seperate and persecute.

But gee, golly gosh, you'd think as time went on we'd have grown up a bit. You'd think that the positive basis of religion would gradually supercede the negative uses that humans come up with for what is basically a healthy and natural instinct for spiritual enlightenment.

Instead, we're getting worse again. The intensifying clash between religions. The meddling right wing in the US. The potential that religious conflicts could escalate and perhaps destroy the world, or at least send us back to the Dark Ages.

I dunno, call me old fashioned, but it seems to me that the drive to find inner peace, harmony and altrustic unity ought to be a positive force in society, instead of a source of nconflict and division.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

1. Wouldn't that be nice?

[wtmusic]

2. The power mad have always known that religion

is a powerful tool to control the masses. Inner peace and harmony are a noble aspiration, but most will "sell out" to power (wealth) in a heartbeat.

[Armstead]

6. I can appreciate how the power mad misuse it

There are a lot of human drives that lend themselves to bad behavior.

Hunger, control of resources, wealth, fear of those who are different.....Those are logical reasons for conflict. I'm not saying it's right to fight or exploit because of those, but at least there's a certain consistency there.

However, it seems that religion should be just the opposite, as a countervailing force. The fact that it seems to be making things worse just looks like a fundamental and nonsensical paradox.

[wtmusic]

12. What never fails to amaze

is the vulnerability of contracts. I've learned the hard way (several times) that they are worthless if a signing party REALLY wants to break them.

In a sense the Bible is a contract with Christians, just as the Constitution is a contract with Americans. When we fall under the spell of baser instincts like greed and fear, we can always find an escape hatch from these commitments. Civilization moves backwards.

[JDPriestly]

3. Jimmy Carter's book Our Endangered Values

gives a refreshing view of how religion supports the idea of justice. It's a great book for our time. I recommend it.

[BiggJawn]

4. Perhaps it's a sign...

That we've outgrown the need for religion?
The same "My Gawd can kick YOUR Gawd's ass" crap that's been going on seemingly forever.

To me, religion has always been about control of the masses by a small select group. That surely isn't a positive drive, is it?
Oh, and clergy livin' large off the sweat of their flocks, too.

[Armstead]

9. I'm talking about the instinct behind religion

I don't care what Cosmic Conclusions one ultimately comes to.

I'm saying that the basic drive behind religion logically would make people behave better, not worse.

Logically, unbelief or athieism or nihilism could be a driver for bad behavior, if one believes there is nothing to answer to and nothing bigger to believe in. (I'm not saying that is the result of non-belief. Just saying that it could be used as a justification.)

But instead, the opposite is true. The more religious and spiritual we become as a society, the meaner and more intolerant we get.

It's a conundrum.

[RaleighNCDUer]

15. Religion and spirituality are antithetical.

Religion is about control. Spirituality is about interconnectedness.

Religion is the means by which spirituality of the many is controlled and channeled according to the wishes of the few.

Spirituality is perfectly possible in an atheistic context - it's called Humanism. That's why Humanism is not a religion -- it is the opposite of religion. I would argue, however, that spirituality is rare, at best, in a religious context. The structures, and strictures, of religion work against it.

Religion proports to give us answers.
Spirituality encourages questions.

[SPKrazy]

26. While Some Religions may be about control

Certainly not all are

and some find spirituality within the context of religion

certainly relgion and spirituality aren't the same, but some are spiritual and not religious, some are religious and not spiritual, and some are religious and spiritual.

I like to think of myself as the latter.

[RaleighNCDUer]

30. I've yet to see any religion that is not about control.

That's not to say that religion cannot be used as a path for spirituality. And some religions seem to be better suited for that path than others. But all religions say "this is the way it is done" and with that statement, you have control. If anything, I see religion as an impediment to spirituality.

Religion is football.
Spirituality is surfing.

Me, I sit on the beach and read.

[SPKrazy]

37. That's cool!

I find God in nature, and people.

I attend church for more social reasons probably, although I am quite enamored with taking communion, as it brings a sense of closeness with a view of God that I can understand.

Although, sometimes understanding God is a lot less important than just being.

[BiggJawn]

17. You don't really believe that, do you?.

"Logically, unbelief or athieism or nihilism could be a driver for bad behavior, if one believes there is nothing to answer to and nothing bigger to believe in."

So "logically" speaking, I should be running around stealing, murdering, cheating, fucking other men's wives, etc. because there's "nothing to answer to"? Nothing? Let's see now, There is no god to punish me if I murder somebody, but there's PLENTY of man-made laws to deal with me enough ion the here-and-now so that anything in the "hereafter" would at best be redundant.

Bullshit. Big STEAMING pile of Bullshit. I live a moral (sometimes PAINFULLY so) life because it's the RIGHT thing to do, NOT because I have a fear of some creature in the sky with no face who sits on a hard chair who is going to tell me to take the "down" elevator (ala Jack Chick).



"But instead, the opposite is true. The more religious and spiritual we become as a society, the meaner and more intolerant we get."

I think you may have the answer to your question staring you in the face right there. Rationalize it as a "fault of Man" and no fault of "god" if you wish.

[Armstead]

23. Yer missing the point

Let me try to repeat that more clearly.

This is neither an endorsement or criticism of God, alternative spiritual beliefs, athiesm or agnosticism.
My reference to athiesm was just in contrast to those who hold a belief in some Divine Power. If one does not have a belief in a God to answer to, it would be one logical option that they would feel less requirement to live a moral life for that particular reason.

It doesn't mean that a person can't be an athiest and still be moral or live a moral life. Merely that it would be a choice.

[BiggJawn]

24. It would be ONLY "one logical option"

As it would also be "logical" to assume that since Gawd forgives ANYTHING, no matter HOW vile (except for insulting Him) ANYTIME before you draw your last rattling breath, a Christian person could go on a rampage that made Charlie Manson look like a pantywaist, so long as he "repents" before AHH-Nuld slips the mickey to him in San Quentin.

Perhaps what you're trying to explain is "Free Will", but by using the fallacy of the "Immoral, fearless of Divine retribution Atheist", you've clouded your issue.

"My reference to athiesm was just in contrast to those who hold a belief in some Divine Power. If one does not have a belief in a God to answer to, it would be one logical option that they would feel less requirement to live a moral life for that particular reason."

Well....To me, that's alot like saying "Some of my best friends are Mexican, BUT..."

BTW, it's spelled "Atheist", w/a CAPITAL "A"...

[Armstead]

27. Don't be so touchy

Some of my best friends are Atheists. I even let them into the house on occasion.

Gosh I even consider myself an agnostic.

Once again, my comments were not meant as a slight on Atheism. Nowhere do I say that a belief in free will makes one less moral. In fact it is a sign of better character to be moral for its own sake than to be moral in the hopes of getting a big payoff in the end.

But I do believe that religion represents what should be an instinct for positive harmony, instead of a cause of violence and conflict.

[BiggJawn]

28. Sorry.

I'm not backing down. So you let Atheists in your house, BFD, My next thought is "Sure, but would you want your daughter to MARRY one?"

"Once again, my comments were not meant as a slight on Atheism."

Once again, that's too bad, because that's exactly how I took it. Christianity has a rich enough history of violence and evil that you could have pulled examples from without having to drag your hypothetical ammoral Atheist into the discussion.

There's already enough opinion out there that we eat little babies and are cruel to puppies because "Them folks ain't skeered o' GAWD". Your "I'm just sayin'" mouthings add fuel to it.

[muriel_volestrangler]

22. Religion is about declaring your allegiance to specific beliefs

about the universe, and promising to follow them. The word comes from the Latin for "to bind". That religion will define your required behaviour as 'good', but nothing says that the rest of the world will define it as 'good' as well. It has nothing to do with helping your fellow humans. And that has always been the case. Some sects do emphasise helping people, but there have always been others that say beliefs, not actions, are the only important thing.

The drive behind religion is curiosity on how the universe came to be as it is, a hope that you can influence life by supernatural means, and uncertainty whether you will continue to exist after your body dies (and in what condition - bliss, agony, more life, etc.). Again, this is unrelated to your generosity to others - unless you think you're being judged by a supernatural being.

I have no idea what people mean by 'spirituality'. I'm beginning to think that a lot of people do use it to mean "caring for others", rather than anything to do with a non-physical soul. If that's so, then I'd agree that being more spiritual would imply more tolerance, but I'd see that as unconnected with religion.

[Allyoop]

16. "Evolved" Christianity

I recommend Episcopal Bishop John Shelby Spong's "The Sins of Scripture" - Exposing the Bible's Texts of Hate to Reveal the God of Love. He makes a strong argument that Christianity must "grow up" or die. Those of us who have rejected all the evil of Christianity as it has been practiced, may be able to read this book and find a way back to a new faith (if that is our need and desire).

[BiggJawn]

18. Thanks.

Nothing there I want to "find my way back to". Spong's pretty cool, just the same.

[KittyWampus]

5. "We're" Getting Worse? No, It's Exactly The Opposite. We're Getting Better

And the fact that the Haters are slowly becoming the minority frightens them even more. So they scream louder and lash out more.

Remember the millions who protested WORLD WIDE before the Iraq invasion even began?

Remember the celebration of the Harmonic Convergence?

[Armstead]

10. I used to think that

But right now it seems like we're getting worse on many fronts.

I hope I'm just reacting to short-term events, and that in the bigger picture you are right.

[KittyWampus]

13. Bigger Picture is the perfect term, Armstead. Think Of Human Dinosaurs

who have the Consious Awareness that they are becoming extinct.

[Armstead]

14. I just don;t want them to make me and thee extinct in the process

[Lerkfish]

7. Religion and spirituality speak to the highest potential of man

but the problem, as always, is that its too easy to control man by the lowest and base motivators: hatred, fear, greed, lust, jealousy, etc.

If faithful people would only keep their eyes on the prize, things would be better.

I think what it really is, is that organized religions have done a disservice to man in this vital regard: by ritualizing faith, they have put a ring in the nose of followers which allows them to be lead around like cattle. Once that ring of unquestioning obedience is in place, it is nothing at all to hand the lead over to another master.

this is something that the republicans understand too well: RW christians, for example, have been conditioned to accept leadership without question, as long as it appears to address a base fear or prejudice -- abortion and gay rights, for example. So, by shuttling money or favors to megachurch leaders, the leaders in turn will hand the leash of their congregations gladly over to the republicans, delivering votes and fanatical adherents.

Faith is a beautiful choice, if willingly and knowingly made. If enforced by rote or ritual, it becomes an empty cask.
And you can fill an empty cask with anything at all.

[bowens43]

8. Fundamentalism is a mental illness and it's pandemic. n/t

[schmuls]

11. Wow do I agree with you - these people are dangerous n/t

[seabeyond]

19. finger on nose, pointing to you. yessssss. lol lol hence the stupidity

where so many are taking the journey in hteir spirituality. further they go off the path, harder they pray and demand, yet they are not willing to listen.... fnd the higher, that is where there is lite, to walk our journey. they are lost in darkness, confusion, fear, anger, anguish......

[Taxloss]

20. Well ...

... while I concur that we should share "the drive to find inner peace, harmony and altrustic unity", I would disagree that belief in a higher power or the supernatural is necessarily the route. Albert Schweitzer described the fundamental as "reverence for life":

It also became clear to me that this elemental but complete system of values possessed an altogether different depth and an entirely different vitality than one that concerned itself only with human beings. Through reverence for life, we come into a spiritual relationship with the universe. The inner depth of feeling we experience through it gives us the will and the capacity to create a spiritual and ethical set of values that enable us to act on a higher plane, because we then feel ourselves truly at home in our world. Through reverence for life, we become, in effect, different persons. I found it difficult to believe that the way to a deeper and stronger ethic, for which I had searched in vain, had been revealed to me as in a dream. Now I was at last ready to write the planned work on the ethics of civilization.

http://www.schweitzer.org/english/aseind.htm

I recommend reading Schweitzer as a way of providing a synthesis of values and ethics that can apply equally to those of all faiths and those of none. It's inspiring stuff.

[Armstead]

21. I'm not saying that is necessary

I'm talking nabout the search for some sense of harmony with the universe, whatever the route.

If one believes athiesm is the path, that's fine.

All I'm saying is that the individual motivations for seeking truth and some sense of spiritual fulfillment is contrary to the byproducts of religion today.

[RaleighNCDUer]

31. A wonderful quote.

I think it is a perfect description of how I define 'spiritualtiy'.

And I am an atheist.

What is that quote from?

[Taxloss]

34. It's from "Albert Schweitzer Speaks Out" (1964)

I strongly recommend Schweitzer to all atheists (I am an atheist myself). He provides a wonderful framework for an ethical approach to the universe regardless of faith or lack of faith.

[FreedomAngel82]

25. For the most part it is

Sometimes people get out of control or like to control (see AFA for example and their like). Other people use their spiritual beliefs for good (see Jimmy Carter for example).

[Ladyhawk]

29. My opinion is that religions have always painted themselves as positive,

but in most cases, the opposite is true. Organized religion has done far more harm than good in this world and we'd all be much better off without it.

I should add a disclaimer saying that I realize that spirituality and religion are two different things. I've watched church dynamics my whole life and I don't like what I've seen. I'm not sure how a church can maintain positive spirituality, although I am sure there are some decent churches out there. It's just they don't exist in my limited experience.

I'll shut up now. It's 5:30 a.m. and I can't sleep. This subject always upsets me because so much harm has been done in the name of something that is supposed to be good. As far as I can tell, organized religion is worse than useless and it saddens me.

[porphyrian]

32. Says who? - n/t

[leftofthedial]

33. No! It's supposed to make you afraid of hell, you sinner!

Gays, new agers and liberals have perverted religion into some touchy feely mush that doesn't stand for anything anymore! Religion is serious business that DOES stand for something! And that something is HELL! Eternal Damnation! The only way to avoid going to HELL is to hate everyone who is going to HELL more than they hate you!

[JVS]

35. People would just fight about something else.

If not religion, then nationality, or race, or politics, or favorite color, or about economics. People are violent

[rpgamerd00d]

36. ... not according to this:

[oscarguy]

38. In My Opinion Religion and Inner Peace Re:most Religions Anathema

I have no tolerance for any and all religious lunatics whatever the particular BRAND they prefer. They are causing and have caused so very, very much of Human misery throughout the entire history of Mankind. Be a HUMAN BEING and the HELL with all this Religious nonsense. ...Oscar P.S. God told me to say this.