A related question about whether prostitution really is a victim less

[hedgehog]

crime.

It's pretty well documented that JFK's first encounters with the opposite sex involved visits prostitutes while in his teens. I came across a suggestion in one book that he was also seduced as a teen by one of the nurses at the Mayo Clinic while he was a patient there.

Question: What part did these depersonalized first encounters play in the fact that he was apparently unable to form a monogamous relationship later in life? Could this be a situation similar to selling hard drugs to minors in that while the product is desired and paid for, the young customer doesn't really understand the hazards?

If someone reduces sex to an impersonal act performed to respond to basic urges, can that person also engage in sex as a very personal, meaningful activity? If a heterosexual uses person(s) for meaningless sexual activity, how well can that person empathize with others, especially others of the opposite sex?

[Kelly Rupert]

1. I see what you're saying.

Nursing isn't a victimless crime. Because of nurses, JFK was unable to form a monogamous relationship, and, in fact, was unable to empathize with anyone ever, especially females. We must immediately put an end to nursing, before our society suffers the consequences.

[Joe for Clark]

2. Funny.

Joe

[skypilot]

3. I would guess...

...that lots of people, male and female, have used at least one person strictly for sexual purposes. I don't quite think that doing that would preclude making more meaningful connections later unless the person is already damaged in some way--for example, someone who was sexually abused or assaulted.

[vicman]

4. I, personally...

have never had "meaningless" sex. I assure you, each and every time, I sincerely and totally "meant" it. Is there actually any such thing as "meaningless" sex? Or maybe you mean the sex occasionally had when a marriage has gone fallow and loveless. That may actually get close to the "meaningless" label.

[hedgehog]

13. How can I explain color to a blind man?

[vicman]

24. :)

The experiences in your life that inform you about sex are your experiences. The experiences in my life that inform me about sex are mine. On this subject we can never be anything but blind to any other human being's experience of life. We can only tell others what to think and what to do.

[Der Blaue Engel]

5. So your argument is that a) prostitution harms innocent johns

by somehow making them incapable of monogamy.

And b) prostitution is by definition "an impersonal act performed to respond to basic urges" to the exclusion of all other sexual encounters.

Then there's c) something I can't even follow about heterosexuals being incapable of empathy (as opposed to homosexuals in the same situation?) because they've had meaningless sex?

Let me just sum this all up with a big :wtf:

[mrcheerful]

9. Funny how the human mind always tries to make up excuses for someones behaviors.

Sometimes its even amusing. I wonder what the OP would come up with dealing with a nut case that thought all women that had sex with him were whores and those that refused him were just high class whores?

[hedgehog]

10. I was thinking specifically of husbands who are unfaithful to their wives.

If a man uses a prostitute (note the verb), can he fully respect any woman as an equal.

Since homosexual prostitution does not involve using the opposite sex, the question would not apply.

[lvx35]

6. I think its a good question.

If you look at the way prostitution commodifies human beings, you will see its part of some much bigger problems in our capitalist system, and yes I do believe there are victims. And yes, I do believe the exploited and exploiter are damaged in such a relationship.

[asthmaticeog]

7. In pretty much the entire animal kingdom...

sex IS an impersonal act performed to respond to basic urges. It's our culture that ties the reproductive act to romance and monogamy. How one conducts one's sexual life has no bearing on his or her ability to empathise with others. Though non-empathetic people are probably more likely not to form lasting relationships (duh), the reverse, that people whose sex lives are casual are automatically non-empathetic, doesn't logically follow. And I would hardly call JFK a non-empathetic person just because he was a dog. Reagan, for example, wasn't a horndog, and he wrecked the lives of the poor. John Ashcroft is another notorious non-slut who plainly lacks empathetic qualities. I'm sorry, but your O.P. is more a rorshach blot of your attitudes toward sex than anything useful for discussion about developing or stunting empathetic abilities vis formative sexual experiences.

edit: boy, did I misspell a lot of stuff.

[hedgehog]

12. While JFK obviously had empathy for people in general, he was

rather notorious for his treatment of some of the women in his life. I'm thinking specifically of an early incident when he was not available when Jackie had a still born child. Forcing her to pretend in public that she didn't know about his affairs is another case.

Sexual monogamy is no guarantee of empathy, but the question was, how empathetic can a person be who is unfaithful to his or her SO?

I'm also thinking of the way women were treated back in the 60's. I am speculating that greater respect for women and less tolerance for prostitution since then are somehow related.

[asthmaticeog]

23. Except that

acceptance of prostitution is UP since the '60s, as well as respect for women. Also, an empathetic person can be unfaithul. There are more causes of infidelity than lack of empathy, you're being way too reductive.

What you're doing here is using pseudoscientific language to rationalize your cultural biases in re monogamy, prostitution, the western romantic/chivalric ideal, etc. While its certainly useful to have this discussion, it'd be more useful to start from a valid premise.

[opihimoimoi]

8. Ban Nursing if the results are as you say.....

Man has always been polygamous....hence the many wives and /or husbands in our distant and not so distant past.

It was them Levites who promoted the one husband one wife deal....When GOD was a WOMAN...by Merlin Stone....she explains the shift from a very happy life style(Caanites, etc) to that of repression and Guilt...Hebrewism....

All our distant cultures embraced sex as a means to gratification.....why should we be any different? Because we are civiliazed? BS.

The repression of sex leads to the escalation of deviant behavorior IMHO......

Come, we go eat ice cream

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

11. Nah. We should outlaw religion that once favored it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution#In_the_ancient_world

In the ancient world

Near East

One of the first forms is sacred prostitution, supposedly practiced among Sumerians. In ancient sources (Herodotus, Thucydides) there are many traces of sacred prostitution, starting perhaps with Babylon, where each woman had to reach, once in their lives, the sanctuary of Militta (Aphrodites or Nana/Anahita) and there have sex with a foreigner as a sign of hospitality for a symbolic price.

Prostitution was common in ancient Israel, despite being tacitly forbidden by Jewish Law. Some prophets, like Hosea and Ezekiel, strongly fought it. Within the religion of Canaan, a significant portion of temple prostitutes were male. It was widely used in Sardinia and in some of the Phoenician cultures, usually in honour of the goddess ‘Ashtart. Presumably by the Phoenicians, this practice was developed in other ports of the Mediterranean Sea, such as Erice (Sicily), Locri Epizephiri, Croton, Rossano Vaglio, and Sicca Veneria. Other hypotheses regard Asia Minor, Lydia, Syria and Etruscans.

In a story in the Bible, a prostitute in Jericho named Rahab assisted Israelite spies with her knowledge of the current socio-cultural and military situation due to her popularity with the high ranking nobles she serviced, among others. The spies, in return for the information, promised to save her & her family during the planned military invasion as long as she fulfilled her part of the deal by keeping the details of the contact with them secret & leaving a sign on her residence that would be a marker for the advancing soldiers to avoid. When the people of Israel conquered Canaan she left prostitution, converted to Judaism and married a prominent member of the people.

[Warpy]

14. I've taken care of hookers in hospital

and the range in job description is pretty amazing, from a series of orifices in street hookers who generally perform the BJs that a wife may veto to call girls who are paid to provide believable out of town "girlfriends" in public and supply a fantasy life in private. All spoke positively of favorite "regulars." Some had boyfriends, same sex partners and husbands and seemed to understand the difference between a business transaction and real affection. I found little lack of empathy among them and observed some very caring behavior directed toward hospital roommates.

As for Kennedy, I doubt the alleged trauma of his teenage years was what turned him into an insatiable horndog in his 40s. I rather think he was already like that in his teens. If that encounter in the hospital actually happened, something I am highly skeptical of, it would likely have NOT been an impersonal exchange of body fluids, but been prefaced by a period of courtship.

Even married spouses use each other sexually from time to time. It can't all be hearts and flowers.

[hedgehog]

15. I wasn't thinking of the hookers, but rather their customers.

Here's an extreme case: how much empathy does a soldier in a war zone show when he pays a girl for sex rather than giving her the money for food?

[Warpy]

28. I've also taken care of men, a large percentage of whom

especially among vets of foreign wars, have availed themselves of a prostitute's services at some point in their lives. I have observed few men who were heartless bastards to the women in their lives, and the heartless bastards I did observe were probably that way despite what they may or may not have done with other women sexually.

[VelmaD]

16. This may ramble a bit but stick with me

Because of the threads on it I've been contemplating prostitution and porn all morning and having some thoughts. My first issue is that the VAST majority of prostitutes are there to service men. Whether the prostitute is male or female they are almost always performing their services on a man. Most of the porn produced is also aimed at the male audience (though I will acknowledge that there is more porn aimed at women now than there was in the past.) And I'm tired of how the sexuality of our culture is so male-centered.

What does it say about us? I worry that men are given all the signals that sex should be available to them absolutely any time they want it. That the people they are involved with (usually women, but sometimes male partners as well) should be willing to do anything they see in the most out there porn. That if they aren't or if the man lacks a partner he should be able to just go buy sex from someone. And if he isn't comfortable with that, there's any amount of porn out there to cater to any whim, no matter how strange. And scariest of all, some men take it to the extreme and believe they can take sex from an unwilling partner.

The messages sent to women are complicated and conflicting. If we want sex...we're a slut. If we don't want it...we're frigid man-haters. If we won't do absolutely any sex act, we're a prude and our partner has the right to go somewhere else. If we will do just about anything...well, if there a word worse than slut? But the main message we get is that our bodies are commodities that don't really belong to us. Particularly our sexuality.

The only real positive I've seen come out of the porn industry in the last decade is the increase in the amount of porn directed at women as a market. It would be nice for once to be able to explore our own sexuality without having to deal with men telling us what it is we should want. But I think this is counter-balanced by the amount of porn being made where women have baseball bats shoved into places they really aren't intended to go. It's hard to revel in women's sexuality with the glut of double-penetration porn out there.

Sorry to ramble. :) I'm just really conflicted on all this. I've seem the research from both sides. That porn doesn't increase the incidence of rape. That watching porn does effect how people view women and particualrly rape victims. It makes my brain sweat.

On prostitution I'm conflicted as well. In a perfect world I would have no problem with people selling whatever personal service they wanted. But we don't live in a perfect world and I worry about the message sent to both women and men about women's worth and role by prostitution.

[hedgehog]

19. Ramble away, your last sentence bears repeating:

"On prostitution I'm conflicted as well. In a perfect world I would have no problem with people selling whatever personal service they wanted. But we don't live in a perfect world and I worry about the message sent to both women and men about women's worth and role by prostitution."

[Skittles]

26. the more things change the more they stay the same

good post, Velma :thumbsup:

[Crabby Appleton]

17. re prostitution

Why should it be legal to have sex for free, but not legal to do for money?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

18. arguably he enjoyed de personalized sexual encounters and had to get married to be considered

a legitimate politician.

some people do like casual sex. it has nothing to do with sex with prostitutes though

[hedgehog]

20. I was wondering whether his introduction to sex as a casual

activity made it hard or impossible to form a different relationship, later.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

22. even if you are 14 you still make a choice to have sex with a prostitute right?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

21. I Say God Bless Those That Can Engage In Meaningless Sexual Activity. God Bless Em.

Some of the most fun I've ever had has been while engaged in passionate sexual activity in which both of us understood there was no more depth other than instant gratification of sexual desire.

And yes, one can engage easily in both meaningless and meaningful sexual relations, depending upon their emotional investment. There is definitely something to be said for engaging in such activity with a partner of which there is deep emotional ties. But damn, when I think of the immense amount of fun I've had engaging in the meaningless kind as well.

Course, had nothing to do with prostitution, but your OP seemed to go beyond that concept anyway.

[porphyrian]

25. I'll try, in order.

I'm not sure, but that's more of an argument for the destigmatization of mental health care than against prostitution.

People know cigarettes are bad for them but smoke them anyway. I don't think I believe in that correlation.

Yes, just as someone who buys and eats ice cream at a parlor for no other reason than hunger can have a satisfying, healthy meal at home. Again, this sound more like an emphasis on the need for better mental health care.

Just like you can use someone to cut your hair for money and still acknowledge that hair stylists and barbers are people, too, and feel bad for them when they are mistreated.

[mondo joe]

27. If a man pays a woman to clean his apartment can he respect women as equals?

What a nutty new barf bag of an argument.

Even if men somehow did experience some weird affect as you describe, it's within the bounds of PERSONAL CHOICE and does not make him a victim.

[VelmaD]

29. well, many of them expect us to do it for free...

and don't respect us

[mondo joe]

30. And do you think that's because they once paid for a maid service?

Or poor choices in men to have relationships with?

[VelmaD]

31. Neither...I think it's because our society...

let's too many men grow up thinking they're entitled to have everything taken care of for them.

[mondo joe]

32. If society lets men think that, what does it let women think?