Why do Christians think they can rule the United States

[Strathos]

I've been arguing with a freeper on another forum and he told me that Christians have to vote the way they think God wants them to vote. I told him he didn't have the right to decide if I could get married or not and for this to even be on the table is ridiculous. Do you think Christians or any American has the right to tell another American they can't get married?

I'm so fuckin' tired of these radical Christians and all their bible spoutin' I'm about to go postal. LOL

Not really, but man, it just wouldn't take much.

[muntrv]

1. Ask this freeper if he believes "thou shalt not kill" and if he does, why

he supports war in Iraq?

[Monkeyman]

4. THOU SHALL NOT LIE

[renie408]

6. Oh, don't get me started.

How about the fact that homosexuality gets mentioned something like less than ten times in the whole Bible and caring for the poor and helpless gets mentioned over 3000 times?? But do you see the freepers getting worked up over helping the poor?? Hell, no. But they will flat foam at the mouth if you mention gay marriage.

[Psephos]

23. You're right about freepers and gay marriage, but maybe not right about helping poor

This story was in the news recently. Don't shoot the messenger (that's me). ;-)

Red-Blue Charity Divide

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/12/13/opinion/main2260285.shtml

Here's an excerpt:

This year, as in most, half of all charitable giving likely will occur between Thanksgiving and Christmas.

Arthur C. Brooks, who has written extensively on charity and civics, takes an interesting look at who is busy in the giving season — and who isn't — in his new book, "Who Really Cares."

Brooks looks at the familiar demographics of philanthropy, but also at how what we believe affects what we give. This book will and should lead to some hurt feelings.

Brooks' main point is that liberals simply do not give to charity as much, or as often, as conservatives. A key culprit, he argues, is the liberal belief that government, not private citizens, should be responsible for the redistribution of wealth. Therefore, wealthy liberals don't take it upon themselves to donate time and money to charity as frequently or as vigorously as conservatives.

Here's an excerpt from a John Stossel piece on the same subject:

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=2682730&page=2

Finally, the single biggest predictor of whether someone will be charitable is their religious participation.

Religious people are more likely to give to charity, and when they give, they give more money: four times as much. And Arthur Brooks told me that giving goes beyond their own religious organization:

"Actually, the truth is that they're giving to more than their churches," he says. "The religious Americans are more likely to give to every kind of cause and charity, including explicitly non-religious charities."

Stereotypes die hard...on both ends of the political spectrum.

Peace.

[Canadian Socialist]

39. I read a similar report here in Canada

saying that Canadian's give less to charity than Americans. What wasn't noted in the study is that Canadian's don't need to give as much to charity because we have a much better social security net than Americans. If you factor out the charitable donations of Americans to medical and social causes, you will find that Canadians give much more to charity. Our medical and social expenses are mostly covered by taxes, therefore there is no need for charitable donations to those specific causes.

[Tesha]

54. A key diference is that Liberals don't attend church as much...

> Brooks' main point is that liberals simply do not give to
> charity as much, or as often, as conservatives.

A key diference is that Liberals don't attend church as much,
so we're not nearly as motivated to make donations that just
serve to keep our clubhouse open. When a fundy tithes to their
church, they're rung up as big time charitable givers when, in
fact, their charity just comes right back to themselves in
the form of maintaining their favorite social club.

It would be interesting to see statistics that counted only
real charitable giving, giving that passes beyond the control
and benefit of the donor. (And yes, I'd certainly count into
that any actual charitable work done by the fundies' churches,
so long as it wasn't benefitting church members or proselytizing).

Tesha

[renie408]

55. I was thinking more along political and not personal lines

You don't find support for the poor a prominent plank in the GOP platform, while they scream pretty loudly about gay marriage.

[renie408]

56. About Brooks study...

Did it take into account percentage of income? And how does a charitable institution decide which of its doners are liberal and which are conservative...and why are they keeping that data? Also, does 'charitable giving' include tithes? What about charitable giving or activity that isn't institutional? What about those things where you add an extra dollar to your grocery bill to help feed the hungry? Or the canister on your vet's counter that accepts donations for the Humane Society?

[baldguy]

74. If John Stossel says it, then you know it's a lie.

That study includes all charitable giving - including the purchase of Pat Robertson's five mansions, the billions of dollars' worth of blood diamonds he buys every year, and his solid gold Cadillac Escalade. Giving to the church building fund doesn't help to feed poor people.

[Strathos]

51. Oh, they've got an answer for that

You see, any verse that can be used against them, they say they "interpret" it differently. They say the commandment, Thou shall not kill" actually means "thou shall not murder" and going to war is defending yourself and not murder.

Who knew God was such a good lawyer? (that line works best if you say it with a Jewish accent) LMAO (please, that is not to offend any Jewish person, I love everyone until they give me a reason not to)

[Redstone]

2. They thnk so because they've gotten away with doing so for a LONG time.

Redstone

[stansnark]

41. and history shows them it is possible

[silverweb]

3. They think it's their duty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Commission

And the free will of the unwilling does not deter their fanaticism in the least.

[renie408]

5. That whole 'God told me how to vote' thing just creeps me out

God tells people to do all kinds of weird things. Mostly because people use the 'God told me' thing when, in reality, it was what they wanted to do all along and they couldn't get an actual human being to agree that it was a good idea.

[Monkeyman]

11. Just like Bush when he said God told me to go to War

Now that creeps the hell out of me

[renie408]

57. Ding Ding Ding

I cannot understand why Christians think that Bush being told by God to attack Iraq is a validation but somebody's dog telling them to kill couples isn't.

[Kiouni]

7. what, the invisible man in the sky doesn't control you?

well aren't you special!

:sarcasm:

[muntrv]

8. I'm bettin that freeper doesn't fast during Lent. Hell, most of these freepers

have never been inside a church.

[renie408]

9. BTW...the real answer is "Those that say that are not actually Christians"

There is a big difference between SAYING you are a Christian and actually being one. Being a Christian requires that a person strive to be more Christ-like. Like Bradley Whitford said on Bill Maher, "He was the Prince of Peace, not the Prince of Failed Pre-emptive War".

[Joe for Clark]

10. I think he is right. He is a christian??

You know the paramount teaching of the christ?? "What so ever you do, to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me" That is the deal. You live a life that way, it is impossible to screw up - if you live your life that way.

I so agree with you that there are people that can spit up bible lessons and miss the point. But you know there are a lot of us that understood full well.

Joe

[jaysunb]

12. First off, they're not Christians....

They're cultist, that use Christianity to lure people.

[Joe for Clark]

13. That is right.

And well put, too.

Joe

[Bluebear]

24. I have to take them at their word that they are Christian.

If they identify as such, how can I say "well, no, you're not REALLY a Christian".

[Joe for Clark]

27. Don't take people at their word in this.

You can tell the tree by the fruit it bares. Do that.

And when you do, I think you will find a lot of "christians" lacking.

Maybe a lot of agnostics worthy, too. I do.

That is from the sermons on the mount - good words. True words.

Christian is not a label - it is the way you live your life. The rest really is BS.

Joe

[jaysunb]

37. Damn ! you really nailed it !

:thumbsup:

[renie408]

58. 'Sunday' Christians...

America is inundated with 'Sunday' Christians. Hell, better than half of the 'Christians' I know aren't even Sunday Christians. They are Easter/Christmas Christians. As for the real deal, I think I may know two. One is having a crisis of faith right now, though, so that may drop to one here soon.

There is a reason that the path to being a true Christian is a narrow one. It's because it ain't easy to tread. It requires much more than churches have led people to believe.

[Bill McBlueState]

48. of course they're Christians

If they're not Christians, what religion are they?

[trekbiker]

59. Cultist?? the only difference between cults and the christian religion

is size.. same for the judaism and islam. and they are ALL whack. wish they would stay in thier little worship boxes and shut the hell up. As an Atheist, these last six years have been "hell on earth" (hell is another stupid myth btw..)

[pinto]

14. Don't know. But the logical answer to political power is to win the vote.

Extremists of all stripes tend to turn out and vote more than most of the population. Here in California, initiatives and propositions are often decided by a truly small minority of the overall electorate. Go figure...and go vote!

[Joe for Clark]

16. I tis a matter of the heart. It is what you believe.

That is why the "christian right" was sucessful - they sold the lowest base denominator to people that didn't know any better. And they "sold" it - like a used car.

They need to be called out. They were last month.

Joe

[pinto]

20. I agree. And when we can put the debate in an equality framework,

*outside* of religion, we will win.

It's not about anyone's religious perspective, per se. It's about equality. And that's a political winner.

[RiverStone]

15. It's been said you can't argue religion.

And I must admit, that I let go of trying to negotiate the pias Christain's view years ago. These days, I do my best to live and let live (unless some Bible thumper shows up at my door).

Just as most of us DEMS can't fathom why anyone would vote for Bush, the same rule for me applies to any faith that presumes they know what's best for me (or anyone) Don't get it! I get too fucking angry to be an effective debater of the point - so both my health and attitude have adjusted to simply ignore them.

[Joe for Clark]

28. You do understand by now - you got sold a bill of goods and

you bought it.

I do give it up to the christian right - they sure can sell.

For myself - I doubt I could sell water in the desert - so to speak. I have no interest at all in the process - I have no interest in converting anyone at all. And that is ok - I just don't want anyone judging us base on the actions of a few "nut jobs".

Fair- right??

Joe

[jody]

17. The same reason non-Christians think they can rule the United States. n/t

[Psephos]

19. That's the best post in this thread. n/t

[Strathos]

36. No, I don't think so

I don't want to rule the U.S. I just don't want laws made that reflect one set of religious principles. Keep your religion out of our laws and government.

[jody]

46. Don't most laws reflect moral values? If so the question is which group's moral values

will prevail if those values conflict, Christian or non-Christian?

Do you support some Christian values, e.g. oppose murder?

If so as a minimum you might consider rejecting specific Christian values with which you disagree rather than simply rejecting all Christian values.

IMO even a superficial study of doctrine from the various Christian denominations will show considerable disagreement on moral values. See List of Christian denominations

[Rob H.]

68. "Do you support some Christian values, e.g. oppose murder?"

Perhaps that isn't the best example--it isn't solely a Christian value to oppose murder, it's a human value when it comes right down to it. For me, personally, the fact that I'm not religious doesn't mean I'm objectively pro-murder. (If I were to subscribe to a particular religion, I would probably have more in common with Quakers and Buddhists than most of the other denominations out there.)

Just sayin'. :)

[jody]

72. My point is that across all religions and irreligions, one can find common

values that serve as a universal moral foundation upon which most societies composed of diverse views can build a multicultural society.

IMO it's more productive to find common ground for government than to focus on issues that divide like Rove did successfully with such things as abortion, prayer in schools, gay-lesbian issues etc.

IMO it's counter productive to make a blanket condemnation of all Christians as the author did in the OP. :shrug:

[Rob H.]

73. Absolutely, and I agree

...especially about the blanket condemnation. A friend of my parents is a devout churchgoer and one of the most generous, kind-hearted people I know. She's a far cry from the classist, homophobic fundagelicals I've encountered here in the South (the very same people who turned me off to going to church in the first place).

In re-reading my response above I hope it didn't come across as hostile because that wasn't even my intent. If it did, I apologize. :)

[jody]

77. No sweat, we were both just trying to make a point.

Have a nice day! :hi:

[AZBlue]

18. As a Christian, I find your stereotyping and overgeneralization very offensive.

To think that man speaks for all Christians shows your complete ingnorance.

'Nuff said.

[Joe for Clark]

21. It is Ok -

He didn't mean ill.

It is good that you posted though. I do think people need to learn real fast - that christian right is NOT us. Many of us are christians - many different denominations - and we understood the gospels just fine. And that is precisely why we are here, too.

There were some "christians" that sold the majority of us down the river - I will not tolerate them anymore -

Merry Christmas to you AZ Blue.

Joe

[Bluebear]

22. Well he did say radical freeper Christian. Not specific enough? nt

[Joe for Clark]

25. Guess not.

You say christian these days and it conjours the most dire images to some of us.

You may want to double read the prior post- and you will well understand the concern - it is not wrong at all. SOme people have managed to paint us in a corner - we don't belong there at all.

And trust me Bluebear - I am not the poster boy for this. I really am mediocre as the faith goes. And certainly not a salesman of the faith - I trust adults to make adult decisions - I really do.

Joe

[AZBlue]

31. "Why do Christians think they can rule the United States"

Funny...I don't see the words "radical" or "freeper" in that sentence.

[Joe for Clark]

32. I didn't say the United States - at all.

If you really are christian, in any of its forms - then you will understand readilly - that "kingdom" was never of this world at all.

If we were to measure it in this world - that standard starts the the "least of my brother" statements - I guess it can be either or. Maybe.

Now, if some people tried to mix the two - then there is a real problem. Maybe that is the problem here.

Joe

[Occulus]

33. Your reaction is why I am afraid of people of your faith

ed.: I hate 'religious' people who pick and choose....

[Bill McBlueState]

50. that's a good point

All Christians have to pick and choose from their bible, and it seems like it's almost a crapshoot to determine which parts get chosen and which parts get discarded. Better the philosophy that says, "We're not going to let ancient books rule our lives."

[Strathos]

35. He might not speak for all

But he is speaking what seems like the majority is preaching. Don't take it up with me, I'm not a Christian, you'd be better to get your "brethren" together and spread the word that not all Christians are homophobic cultists. I ain't seeing much to the contrary right now.

[Bluebear]

38. :nodding:

[AZBlue]

76. They are NOT the majority.

Nor are they really Christians.

[MazeRat7]

26. Doesn't having "auditory hallucinations" (ie God Talking to you) qualify as schizophrenia ?

Just asking ? Maybe you should too ? :shrug:

MZr7

[stansnark]

42. its not an hallucination if it really is god

[Sparkly]

47. Okay, I have to ask...

How do you KNOW "it really is God?"

How would you explain to a psychiatrist that you're hearing the voice of God speaking to you, but you're not having auditory hallucinations because it really is God?

Just curious.

[MiniMe]

29. Why do Christians feel they should rule the world?

Its more than the US, its the world. No other religions should exist according to these goons.

[madrchsod]

30. i am a "christian" and i do`t talk to them anymore!

it is pointless to talk 95% of these christian zombies ..if one challenges their ideas they shut up or attack. it is pointless to even engage then in any discussion of christianity. i have tried to come to a common ground with these people on mine and their belief in christ`s words,its meanings,and his life and found that they can not accept any idea that is contrary to what they have been told.

[Swamp Rat]

34. They'll be extinct in a hundred years or so,

by their own hand. :)

[hfojvt]

40. no restrictions on marriage?

Events in 1937 from an Upstate NY newspaper

"The discovery Feb. 2 that Leona Elizabeth (redacted), 12, and Stanley S. (redacted) had been married in Carthage Jan. 15 was news worthy of selection in third place. The child marriage was publicized in newspaper and magazines all over the country, following as it did the sensational Tennessee case in which a nine-year-old girl was married to a 21-year-old farmer."

[xchrom]

43. all i can tell you is this -- that christian would be

very upset if this christian were elected to office.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

44. To a great extent they can, sadly.

That's democracy for you - the will of the majority tends to prevail. There are some checks and balances - the fact that America is a representative rather than a direct democracy makes some difference, and the fact that it takes more than a simple majority to change the constitution makes a little - but the power of non-Christians in the US is not great at all.

[durrrty libby]

45. Real Christians and true believers of the word of God

are
out ministering to the sick and needy

All the rest of the self righteous posers, yappers and easily offended on message boards

are fakers, phonies and liars.

[Sparkly]

49. I think it's about absolute certainty and tolerance

There are people who believe with absolute certainty that they, and only those who believe as they do, are "right." That absolutism denies the very possibility of being wrong, so in my view it goes beyond "faith."

However, some can believe they have the one and only truth and yet still tolerate others they view as "wrong" as misguided, damned to Hell, whatever. The problem, of course, is their imposing their rigid views of "righteousness" on other people where there are questions of belief, faith, personal privacy, etc. Such people may honestly believe what they're doing is right and good, and because it goes beyond rational thought, there's no reasoning beyond "I'm right." I find that very frightening.

[jarab]

52. The same reason Dems think they can rule the Senate. nt

...O...

[Beelzebud]

53. Arrogance mixed with ignorance.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

60. Why Do Posters Think They Can Use Broad Brush, Ignorant, Intolerant And Bigoted Headers?

Leave Christians alone.

[renie408]

61. I don't think it's Christians that are being attacked.

It's the people who call themselves Christians. And when the man leading this country says that he KNOWS his choice to go into Iraq was the right thing to do because god told him so, I am not so sure this post is off the mark.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

63. Knock Knock..... Hellooooooo.... McFlyyyyyyy.... C'mere McFly.

"Why do Christians think they can rule the United States"

Pretty damn plain to read if you ask me. So please, I need not your insight into what the OP was referencing. It was the blatantly broad brush, hateful, bigoted and ignorant generic grouping of all Christians in the OP header itself that I am referencing, Ok?

[renie408]

78. Would you feel better if they had said 'some' Christians?

Or should there be a blanket moratorium on mentioning Christians at all?

And I don't need your thin skinned, knee jerk Christian defense. I think that most NORMAL people could understand that any Christian who isn't trying to run the country wasn't the point of the post.

Ok?

[WritingIsMyReligion]

62. No.

Not until you get your liberal brethern together and tell the fundies to fuck off like the rest of us have been doing for decades now.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

64. To Lump Them All Together Would Make One An Intolerant Bigot. And Please Don't Ignorantly Insinuate

that I'm a Christian. I'm not Christian. But I do have respect and tolerance for other's religions and find your inclination to attack all Christians for the acts of an extreme wing as quite ignorant.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

67. We're not trying to attack all Christians.

We're telling them to do something against the neocon bunch in their midst. I personally don't like the Christian religion at all, but I try to be tolerant of people who follow it, so long as they leave me alone. Those who can't or won't leave people alone, mostly the fundies, need to be taken to task. This isn't a theocracy, and no religion is safe from criticism, not even Christianity.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

69. I'll Repeat: Knock Knock..... Hellooooooo.... McFlyyyyyyy.... C'mere McFly.

"Why do Christians think they can rule the United States"

Pretty damn plain to read if you ask me. So please, I need not your insight into what the OP was referencing. It was the blatantly broad brush, hateful, bigoted and ignorant generic grouping of all Christians in the OP header itself that I am referencing, Ok?

And no one said that Christianity can't be criticized. It was the inclusion in the OP that they are all trying to rule the US that was the heart of the ignorance.

Furthermore, your reply above of "No", to my request of leaving Christians as a group out of the attacks, shows that you are in fact willing to attack them all. So I don't want to hear it.

Also, please indulge me with what it is about the Christian religion that you dislike so much. I'd like to get some specifics from you in order to attain some insight into the substance behind your position, rather than just feeling that way to feel that way. What exactly about the messages in Christianity are you so against?

[dogday]

65. I have to agree

this is a broad brushed statement to include what looks to me like all Christians...

It is not about ruling the world, or how much money you have, or who is talking to you telling you to go to war... It is about living your life without hate and bigotry and striving to be a better person....

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

66. First Post In A Long Time I'll Give A Standing Ovation To.

"It is not about ruling the world, or how much money you have, or who is talking to you telling you to go to war... It is about living your life without hate and bigotry and striving to be a better person..."

:applause:


I couldn't have possibly said that any better.

[dogday]

71. Like you, I strive to be tolerant and respectful

of all religions... And that also includes Christianity....


Thanks for the ovation,, here is one for you

:headbang: :yourock: :applause: :woohoo:

[LanternWaste]

70. Well....

Well.... this Christian thinks he can rule the United States because it's in the Bible, I'm left handed and used to drive a Gremlin back in the 80's. Good enough?

:sarcasm:

[Nimrod2005]

75. Because my god is better then your god, so to speak.....nt

[Lilith Velkor]

79. Because the United States is a democracy and ~80% of its citizens are Christian?

:shrug:

I think a supermajority of elected officials are Christian, as is the wealthy elite. Christians have most of the power in this country.

The ones on the political right tend to have the delusion that all other Christians agree with them, hence the problem you describe.

[Crandor]

80. Hey, it would be a big improvement over the Satanists we've got now. nt

[LWolf]

81. Because our system is set up to ensure that majority rules?

:shrug:

It may not be a good thing that xtianity is the majority religion, but it's not a surprise. Proselytizing and converting, working to make the faith a majority, is embedded into the doctrine.

[Zhade]

82. Because the ones who believe that think they're literally entitled to the WORLD.

Thankfully, it's a minority who espouse that view.