I want the troops home now but please answer this for me...what about the sectarian violence?

[NNguyenMD]

We all know that this is all Bush's fault, we all know that none of the violence now would have ever had happened had Bush not invaded. I smelled snake oil from his WMD pitch since 2002.

Like any good American, I don't want our troops to be sitting ducks anymore. I want them to come home too, but someone please tell me about what do we do about the Iraqis who collaborated and helped us during the reconstruction efforts? How do we protect them once we leave?

I am the American born son of Vietnamese immigrants whose family collaborated closely with the US Occupation in Vietnam in the 60's and 70's. And I get the feeling that what the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong did to my family post 1975 (confiscation of all personal property and sentencing into crowded reeducation camps) is going to be a vacation compared to which prevailing Iraqi sect will do with the ultimate loser in this war.

I agree that the troops need to come home NOW, there is not reason that another one of them needs to wait and die. But I am as equally perturbed at the thought of leaving the thousands of Iraqis who helped the US War Effort get slaughtered by theocratical lunies, and can only imagine that the Civil strife that ensues next will be nothing short of ethnic cleansing between the Shias, Sunnis, and Kurds.

I'm not trying to flame bait, I'm just looking for answers to some very difficult questions.

Michael Moore suggests that there is absolutely nothing else we can do, bring the troops home, there will be Civil War whether we stay involved or not, the US can only help once the bloodshed finally settles god knows when.

I appreciate Michael Moore, but there has to be another solution out there.

Peace to all!

[Nutmegger]

1. The death and destruction that we have caused

will last decades thanks to us, whether we stay or leave. Sorry to kind of put it that way but I don't see how anything can improve over there. I feel bad for those people who are struggling each day to survive. :(

[NNguyenMD]

4. I guess it was doomed to end this way since the begining

it mirrors the debacle of Vietnam in every way...

god help us for what we've done to the Iraqi people

[madokie]

25. It just goes to show you can't make people like you by using violence

and if war is not violence I don't know what is. My apologies to you and my best wishes for the future.

[TygrBright]

2. Leaving troops there will NOT stop sectarian violence...

...except create a pressure-cooker phenomenon. The violence will build up under cover of the occupation, and then when the pressure hits a certain level, it WILL explode.

The questions are: How long do we want to let that pressure build, knowing that the longer it builds, the worse the eventual explosion will be? And...

When it explodes, how many Americans do we want to be killed in the explosion?

enquiringly,
Bright

[Erika]

3. These sectarian peoples have been fighting for centuries

The solutions must come from them unless we declare Iraq a state, and take over.

[jwirr]

11. It certain makes clear why Saddam was for secular government.

They are going to tear each other up trying to decide which religion will rule. It also should make clear why we have the separation of church and state in this country. When our ancestors in Europe came here many of them were trying to escape religious theocracies.

[Erika]

13. Saddam outlawed the extremists

such as those who cut themselves in religious parades. W has set Iraq back centuries.

[madokie]

26. easy there don't let li'l g'orge hear that

he likes taking charge. don't know what he's doing but he likes it nonetheless

[David__77]

5. Collaborating with an occupation is always a risk.

It's a harsh reality. In the final analysis, the US cannot protect its Iraqi assets except by taking them into the US as it did many Vietnamese, Hmong and others. It's occupation cannot succeed in its goals. You are correct that the Iraqis will be much more harsh with them than were the Vietnamese post-1975.

[jannyk]

6. Personally, I have no idea

what the solution is. My husband and I spent a long time last night going over the options we are aware of. The only conclusion we could reach is that there are no good options left.

We stay - it's a disaster, more of the same on an escalating basis. We leave - it's a bloodbath, that may escalate to all out war in the ME.

I only know for sure that we, thanks to the madmen running this country, started it - on a whim apparently. We caused this mess all by ourselves and are morally bound to find a way to resolve it - no matter who we have to kowtow to.

[cynatnite]

7. We had the ability to keep a lid on it at the outset...

but, bush just had to do it his way. Disbanding the Iraqi army opened the country up for this violence. They were already trained and well organized. Along with getting rid of the army, they got rid of all baathist elements which meant undermining the infrastructure of Iraq...electricity, water and so on.

Since bush did such a bang up job fucking it up from the beginning there is very little anyone can do about it now. It'll take years...even after we're gone (if that ever happens) to stop the sectarian violence.

[jwirr]

8. I am assuming that this is why there is already such a large

number of refugees heading out of the country. Unfortunately I don't think that the other countries around Iraq are welcoming them in. I fear that not only the different sects in Iraq will continue the killing but that they may pull other countries into the mess. What a pandora's box *ss opened when he decided to go to war in the ME.

[Wisconsin Larry]

9. Several points come to mind,

One is that the US needs to start diplomatic talks with all sides including the neighbors, Iran and Syria -- not a new idea as the Baker commission noted. Of course, diplomacy is not part of the * agenda.

Another thought is that the Kurds have been independent for years. Turkey is more concerned about the Kurds than the Shia's and the Sunnis. The Shia death squads appear to be entrenched in the Iraqi police forces. And the Sunni's have their own militia.

A third point is that Iraqi's professionals of all stripes all leaving Iraq by the thousands. So at this point staying is not an option with any hope of success. However, engaging the other countries in the region and the various Iraqi factions would seem to be the best bet.

However, the Bush administration is woefully short on diplomacy.

[Erika]

12. The Shias are fighting within themselves

Al Sadr and Al Sistani.

[spag68]

10. This insanity is not all simple george's fault

Don't forget about all the pnac gang, the contractors, and the oilmen. Also we all share some blame for not protesting, As for us leaving, it has to ber better then it is now. Let the Saudis prop up the sunni's if they must,and let them pay for the rebuilding, after all we did this partly to keep them and their oil safe. The best thing we can do is conserve as much energy as we can while we get really geared up with alternatives. sooner or later if we have cheap renewable energy, we can go back to feeding the world,that is the best hope for peace in my lifetime.

[Erika]

14. Why isn't it W's fault?

And we did demonstrate and protest against W going into Iraq.

Why should the Saudi's be propped up? Just because W has the prince as a regular visitor to his Texas ranch. The prince has many $ and many wives.

[spag68]

17. I thought I made it clear

that we should leave it up to them to settle it. I never mentioned propping up anyone. As far as protesting, look back to the 60s, that was when I was young enough to be that involved. I've been to a couple of "protests" here in NY, but think back 3 or 4 years, there was not much opposition at all. Still isn't and Iran is next.

[buddysmellgood]

15. The question is How can the least people die? Bush has lost this in such a huge

way, that there is no good solution. It will help everyone if we bring our troops home, but more blood will spill.

[Erika]

16. W opened Pandora's box on that one

Let him find the solution.

[On the Road]

18. The Prospect of an Open Sectarian War

is the ONLY reason I am not 100% behind a simple unconditional withdrawal. The US withdrawal could be followed by a million fatalities.

All the comments that "they" have been fighting each other for centuries, there's nothing the US can do, that there's already a civil war, that it's the Iraqis' responsibility, are all beside the point.

Not making every effort to avoid an open war is the only thing more irresponsible than the initial invasion. There are all kinds of steps that are not being tried, most which involved talking to parties who Bush refuses to deal with.

For that reason, and the US has no credibility and diminishing clout in the region, I have no illusions that Bush is going to solve anything. The most he is going to accomplish is to stave off open warfare for another two years until a Democrat takes the White House. This is by no means unthinkable -- in fact it looks like the most likely outcome.

[dave_p]

19. Best hope for peace

I honestly don't know where this "they've been fighting for centuries" comes from: the region's long gotten by with diverse populations living side by side, for the most part in peace.

What should be clear for now is that US occupation hasn't helped, in fact it was what wrecked the whole complex structure of power networks, deals and dividends that worked through Ottoman, British and nationalist rule.

Can a superpower that can't decide from one day to the next whether to protect the Sunni minority or throw its weight behind the Shia majority really be expected to contribute anything useful to the mess it's created?

What we're seeing isn't some ogre from Iraq's depths, it's the result of smahing a system that had functioned for centuries and imposing a laughably inappropriate model dreamed up by neocon zealots. The mission was doomed from the start, even the "sovereign" government being rejected by probably millions of Sunni Arabs as the stooge of a predatory foreign power hostile to their interests.

The US will have to leave one day, and Iraqis will be left to retrieve what they can from this shambles, perhaps with the help of neighbours who understand the region. The sooner it happens, the better.

[radfringe]

20. I'm torn

between getting the hell out of Iraq and wanting to see Iraq stablized.

Getting the hell out of Iraq will leave a vacuum. It's obvious the Iraqi government can't or won't handle things on their own. the potential for the leadership vacuum to be filled by something worse is there.

Getting the hell out of Iraq doesn't fix the mess. It does mean, in the short term, that our troops are out of danger.

Staying in Iraq might mean a chance to stablized the country. HOWEVER, just dumping more troop into Iraq without a clear plan, without competent leadership just means more death and destruction - this is not progress, it's just spinning our wheels deeper into the mud.

So what's the solution? Military, political, diplomatic? Combination of all three? Creating new slogans, catch phrases, and soundbites is not a plan, nor is it leadership.

I think this the crux of the problem - no leadership. We have no COMPETENT leadership. We have a president who struts, smirks, sputters and does little else.

The solution to Iraq may very well need to be a political one. One that starts here, one that begins with impeachment and removal of bush and cheney.

[KG]

21. what difference are US troops making now? the aren't doing anything

to keep the factions from going at each other now. US troops leaving won't make change the intra-sectarian violence.

[Jacobin]

22. What happened after the American Revolution is instructive

Those who supported the British were badly treated and many left the country, some for the Abaco Islands where many of their descendants live today.

That wasn't a religious schism, but a political one and not nearly so violent.

I think the bottom line is that Iraq belongs to the iraqis and they are going to have to figure this out for themselves, whether their legacy is going to be a world class bloodbath or whether a strongman will come to the fore to pull the country together in some fashion. The only thing that is clear is that we are making things worse and that the longer we stay,the worse things will be and the longer it will be before there is some 'solution' that is of their own making.

Pandoras Box

[karash]

23. .

My response to this got so long I started a new thread rather than drop it into this one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2964933

And here I'll add, a sitting duck is something a hunter finds easy to blast. I lose pity for the sitting duck when it walks into the hunter's home, blows up the TV, rapes his wife, and then sits on a couch with one of his beers. It then ceases to be a pitiable situation in which one feels sorry for the duck.

Secondly, the "let the Iraqis figure it out for themselves" could not possibly be a more arrogant statement. Really, I'd rather hear Bush blaming 100% of the problems there on them, because that would at least be more honest vileness.

Oops! I just released two rabid pit bulls into a preschool playground. I guess I'll let them figure it out for themselves!

Oops! I just dropped a match in the basement of the hospital. I guess I'll let them figure it out for themselves! After all, I wouldn't want to be a sitting duck when the fire started to get really roaring!

Good frickin grief. Disgusting.

After a deep breath, let me add that saying, "let THEM figure it out for themselves" implies that all Iraqis are responsible for the bloodshed. It transforms them into an Other. What, are the 3 year old Sunni baby and his young mother supposed to "figure it out for themselves" with the Shia man kicking in the door? No. Saddam had "figured it out" and we went in and screwed it up royally. Leaving now and telling the Iraqis to "figure it out" is an incredibly arrogant, detached statement. Armchair warriors, unite!

[dave_p]

30. But...

karash writes: "Oops! I just dropped a match in the basement of the hospital. I guess I'll let them figure it out for themselves.... What, are the 3 year old Sunni baby and his young mother supposed to 'figure it out for themselves' with the Shia man kicking in the door?"

The problem is when the "protector"'s response involves shooting the mother and child or dousing the hospital in gas to drown the flames. If I thought the US could offer any help in "figuring it out" I too would be insisting that it should stay and do the job.

I think lots of us would love to see a peaceful, altrustic and politically & culturally sensitive US smother the world in unconditional aid and expertise so we all get to go forward together and leave war and poverty behind. But that isn't going to happen without a radical shakeup at home.

It's no good saying the troops are needed to stem the violence when they're subject to an ideology and strategy that's fuelling the killing. Troops in this situation under this or any similar US government's direction are worse than no troops at all. The ideology & policy need addressing first.

[dave_p]

31. PS.

And of course you were offering a plan radically different to this government's - my apologies for not stressing that. I'm just saying that a plan for genuine assistance has to be policy before we should even be thinking of troops as a solution. And they may not even be troops by then.

For this war, I can really see no possible advantage for Iraqis in a continued US presence.

[jarab]

24. A nation so sectarian (then and now) might only be ...

manageable by an authoritarian style of governance, sadly admitted.
jmo
...O...

[Hubert Flottz]

27. The PNAC's lies broke it...

so send them over to fix it! Jeb isn't doing anything now!

[tabasco]

28. Self-determination. It used to be considered a good thing.

Like after WWII, when we wanted the British to dismantle their empire.

Now the US wants to dominate the globe and countries (at least vulnerable countries with lots of oil) have no right to determine their own government.

The answer from the start was to work with the UN to help Iraq. Invading was unjustified and every day of the occupation is a continuing crime against the Iraqi people.

[pitohui]

29. well that's a very good question

there is a large vietnamese community in my area and this thought has been much on my mind as well

i have no clue as to the answer so i try to avoid comment but i'll just say i don't consider your post flame bait

honestly as a louisiana resident i feel we desperately need the national guard at home, to deal with our natural disaster and crime issues, but abandoning the decent people of iraq to be slaughtered by extremists of every stripe...god i can't support that either

i do not know, i look forward to reading the other ideas in this thread

[Neecy]

32. you raise a good point

I wish I had answers. Yes, it does seem irresponsible to invade a country, overthrow its leaders, destroy the infrastructure, create chaos, internal violence and mass killings and then throw up our hands and say, that's it, we're outta here.

If I thought it would be any different or better for the Iraqi people if we stayed I'd never support immediate withdrawal. However, what I think we're adding is a layer of animosity and hatred that's making what's happening there much, much worse. Maybe without the humiliation of occupation the different sides might actually be able to find a governing solution. The problem, as you know, is that we never should have engaged in this misadventure to begin with, a lesson that should have been learned from Vietnam.

I know a little about the issue of Vietnamese who worked closely with the US military/embassy/contractors during the sixties and seventies. I worked for World Airways many years ago and as you may know we not only evacuated our Vietnamese employees who worked for us in South Vietnam but we also helped evacuate many Vietnamese who had worked closely with American forces. Of course, there were terrible events like the evacuation of our employees from Danang which resulted in an ugly and tragic event as many panicked South Vietnamese army members tried to force their way onto the flight. The final exit from Vietnam was not just helos on the roof of the US Embassy; it was panic and terror of retribution and of course, this did happen. Leaving the Iraqis in this state bothers me, too. I get it.

I had the pleasure of working with many of my colleagues from our Saigon station years afterwards and I learned quite a bit from them about the war and it's certainly instructive to be able to get viewpoints that you'll never read in the New York Times.

I've heard very little about Bush allowing people who have worked with us and their families into the United States. Perhaps when we withdraw this will happen, although I can hear the right wing whackos who advocated for this war turn around and scream that we're letting a huge community of muslims into the country. However this ends, it's going to be ugly and it's the shame of America.

[Zorra]

33. Sadly, Michael Moore is correct, and no amount of wishing, hoping,

or hand wringing will change this fact.

However, we can try to prevent what happened in Vietnam and Iraq from ever happening again by putting Bu*h, the PNAC, and anyone responsible for invading Iraq on trial, getting them convicted of war crimes, and sentencing them to life in a maximum security prison without parole or possibility of pardon.

Maybe thereafter, warmongering fascist lunatics will think twice about frivolously invading sovereign countries, knowing that their fascist comrades are rotting away in a hell on earth.