Only the investigations will reveal if impeachment is wise...

[madmusic]

Let's not get all Nancy Grace about it.

[porphyrian]

1. If you have any doubt that they will, you aren't paying attention. - n/t

[longship]

2. This is a great and succinct post.

Some people here won't see it as such.

I unequivocally want to see ChimpCo impeached. But I see a lot of problems with doing it, not the least of which is that there are fewer than 24 months left in Chimp's term by the time anybody can get an inquiry started.

Before an inquiry, there has to be congresional investigations. That could take months. It *is* possible that the inquiry could produce articles of impeachment quickly, but then we're talking about six months to vote on impeachment and try ChimpCo in the Senate.

Where does this put us with respect to the 2008 Presidential campaign? Right smack into the middle of it, that's where.

For this reason alone, I am cautious about impeachment. One thing is absolutely clear. Democrats had better make damned sure that the public is behind them before they start a formal impeachment inquiry. Anything short of that will kill the Democratic revolution deader than a Tyson chicken.

[reichstag911]

3. There are more...

...than 24 months, and I think the public is far more likely to get behind the impeachment of war criminals who've subverted the Constitution than they were about the Clenis. Let the investigations begin, and let them lead in relatively short order to articles of impeachment!!!

[longship]

4. I hope you are correct.

But you do the math. About 24 months between when the 110th Congress convenes and when the new President is sworn in.

Watergate took 20 months just to get articles approved. Clinton took a horribly long time for investigations, but that's not the model which Dems should use.

The one question that Dems must ask is, "Does the public want this?" Otherwise, they should pursue other methods, which might include tying ChimpCo in knots of investigations and holding indictments until after new President is sworn in January, 2009.

[reichstag911]

7. The desire for some Old Testament justice...

...being meted out to these criminals is strong here at DU, and I am cognizant of the time factor. Should that obstacle prove to be insuperable -- we know Chimpy/Cheney will go to the Supreme Court on every issue, claiming national security and executive privilege immunity from adherence to the laws they pissed on -- then there are post-'08 remedies. Prosecution for violation of our War Crimes Act and/or rendition to the Hague for crimes against humanity would also be attractive. Or maybe just turn 'em over to the same judicial process as Saddam.

[longship]

9. That's what I'm thinking, too.

But I love the idea of frog-marching 'em all out of the White House as Al Gore takes the oath of office.

[pacalo]

11. "Clinton took a horribly long time for investigations" because they had no proof

until Linda Tripp stepped in. These investigations began before Clinton became president because the HWBush camp was fearful of Clinton's charisma & knew he had an excellent chance of winning the election.

Also, the Clinton investigations "lasted a horribly long time" because the Republicans & their compliant media wanted to milk it for the purpose of alienating the public against Clinton.

The investigations against GW will be much different. There's plenty of evidence & plenty of reason to stop this administration before it creates a precedent for future presidencies.

That is all. :hi:

[longship]

14. I agree whole-heartedly.

But Congress and the Justice Department don't always move as quickly as we might want. There were 13 months of Congressional investigations into Watergate before the House agreed to convene the impeachment inquiry. It took an additional six months for the House Judiciary committee to complete their inquiry and approve all the articles of impeachment.

I support impeachment. But there's a real problem with whether Democrats can get it done. They certainly cannot get it done without public support, which does not exist at this time (no matter what the recent ABC online poll says).

The *only* way it happens is if there is a vast public cry for it. The only way that can happen is if investigations are pressed. That's the issue that everybody needs to push their Congress critters on.

[pacalo]

18. Your last sentence says it all for me. I have faith that the investigations

are ready to go where Conyers & Waxman are concerned, not to mention Leahy who will be chairman of the senate justice committee & has already announced that he intends to do something about the habeas corpus law desecrated by the Republicans. Leahy is so impressive & persuasive as a statesman -- his hearings alone will be enough to create an outrage.

Like madmusic said in the OP, the investigations will reveal if impeachment is wise. Conyers & Waxman have been working behind the scenes for years; it won't take long to get the ball rolling.

[longship]

19. Then, all of us have a real plan here.

Whether or not you support impeachment, we all can support the investigations which must necessarily come first regardless if there is to be an impeachment. Then, if things go really sour for the ChimpCo assholes, we can all join the cry for impeachment.

[pacalo]

21. In any case, I'm dumbfounded by those who resist the thought of impeachment.

The crucial point of, let's say, working toward impeachment would be to prevent this administration from having set a precedent for future presidencies. And I don't believe for one iota of second that our Democratic congress doesn't have that in mind.

[longship]

24. Ah, but that's why they're saying that "Impeachment is off the table"

It's a rope-a-dope. They know that they can't openly advocate impeachment, and they know that there's precious time to do it anyway, so they say it's off the table.

Then, launch investigation. Waxman, Leahy, and Conyers seem to be particularly anxious to get started. Others will follow and things will be exposed.

When the people start screaming for impeachment, it will come. The "off the table" will be nullified by public outcry.

Chimp must be forced to resign, just like Nixon did. It's the only way we can complete the process in time and not have any impact on November, 2008. The above scenerio might be the only way that happens.

[pacalo]

26. It's a brilliant plan: "The 'off the table' will be nullified by public outcry.'"

The boy king has hung himself.

[yurbud]

16. have you seen polls on impeachment? first was over 50%

support for clinton topped out at under 30%.

People who are saying this will be a political liability either haven't done their homework or are lying.

[longship]

22. Dems need to find out if they have actual public support.

Months old polls are not going to do it. The people deserve more than opinion testing to justify the impeachment of a president or other high officials. There has to be a ground swell for it.

Kind of like *this* kind of public support...
John Chancellor, NBC News on a Special Report on October 20, 1973:

Good evening. The country tonight is in the midst of what may be the most serious Constitutional crisis in its history. The President has fired the special Watergate prosecutor, Archibald Cox. Because of the President's action, the attorney general has resigned. Elliott Richardson has quit, saying he cannot carry out Mr. Nixon's instructions. Richardson's deputy, William Ruckelshaus, has been fired.

Ruckelshaus refused, in a moment of Constitutional drama, to obey a presidential order to fire the special Watergate prosecutor. And half an hour after the special Watergate prosecutor had been fired, agents of the FBI, acting at the direction of the White House, sealed off the offices of the special prosecutor, the offices of the attorney general and the offices of the deputy attorney general.
All of this adds up to a totally unprecedented situation, a grave and profound crisis in which the President has set himself against his own attorney general and the Department of Justice.

Nothing like this has ever happened before.

More than 50,000 telegrams poured in on Capitol Hill today, so many, Western Union was swamped. Most of them demanded impeaching Mr. Nixon.
...

In my career as a correspondent, I never thought I'd be reporting these things.

Within two months, the cry for impeachment compelled the House Judiciary Committee under Peter Rodino to convene the official inquiry. Six months later, articles of impeachment were approved and Nixon resigned in the face of overwhelming support for his removal.

This is the kind of support the Democrats will need.

[yurbud]

28. and squelching talk of impeachment will get that how?

[yurbud]

29. Conyers got over half a MILLION signatures on letter demanding

Bush response to DSM.

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=48934

I doubt that a single one of those people would oppose impeaching Bush or wouldn't send a letter demanding Bush's impeachment.

[AntiFascist]

20. The real issue is: are we brave enough to expose the money laundering...

or will we kowtow to the criminal elements of the secret government and go about business as usual.

[mmonk]

5. I disagree

but I'm tired of trying to convince people. It's getting circular. I will say I am totally surprised more people here at DU aren't for impeachment proceedings. I did not know party leaders who want political calculations based on self interest could sway so many.

[pacalo]

10. There are political calculations involved, but I look at it as brilliant.

Trumpeting the word "impeachment" at this point would create a media firestorm that could turn people off from the get-go. If ever a presidency needed investigating, it is this one, so letting the investigations unfold to let the people grasp the horrors & let them sink in is the way to go. The investigations will speak for themselves & the people are sure to demand impeachment.

[mmonk]

12. Too much calculation could produce nothing.

Did the democrats lose seats or not get elected when they threatened to impeach Nixon? Did the republicans get swept out of office and not get elected after Clinton was impeached?

[pacalo]

15. Those two administrations didn't have the protection of the media, either.

Now owned by corporate comglomerates, the media is what causes pause for the Democrats. The people have seen this administration mostly heralded by the media for the past 6 years, so there's lots of de-programming to do. Letting the investigations & the facts unfold will anger the people enough to demand that this administration be impeached.

[mmonk]

23. That's exactly the reason I don't think investigations

without the word impeachment on the backend will work.

[pacalo]

6. I agree. The investigations are certain to lead the way.

By the time investigations begin, I won't be concerned about the way Democrats will look. I'm more concerned that Bush not be allowed to have set a precedent for future presidencies.

And we're not out of the woods just yet. Bush wants Congress to pass his domestic spying program bill before the new, Democratic-majority Congress steps in.

[gulliver]

8. We need a lot of Republicans to want it too.

And after the investigations get underway, that could happen. Let the chips fall where they may.

[ThomWV]

13. I neither know or care who Nancy Grace is, but your title is absolutly correct

Let the investigations begin, let's see what is said, let's see if we can find out if crimes have been comitted. Then we will decide if there is anything that needs anything done about it and if so just what on earth it is we will do about whatever it is.

[madmusic]

25. Nancy Grace is vital to the context.

She is a crime "reporter" who never lets facts get in the way of a good blood lust. Everyone is guilty. More important, though she has a dedicated following of worshipers, many, many more people, the left or the right, despise her dismissal of due process and the Constitution.

If Dems become the Nancy Grace party, we are doomed.

[yurbud]

17. rember what happened when Dems let Iran Contra and Oct Surprise alone?

how did GOP repay that favor?

[wellst0nev0ter]

I'd Feel Better About An Impeachment If The States Voted For It

If it were left up to congressional Democrats, the media hacks and reich-wing lie machine will be howling about a "partisan witch hunt". If the impeachment resolutions come from the state legislatures then there will be little wiggle room to interpret it as a partisan witch-hunt by DC Democrats.

[wellst0nev0ter]

27. I'd Feel Better About An Impeachment If The States Voted For It

If it were left up to congressional Democrats, the media hacks and reich-wing lie machine will be howling about a "partisan witch hunt". If the impeachment resolutions come from the state legislatures then there will be little wiggle room to interpret it as a partisan witch-hunt by DC Democrats.