the Democratic congress has two years to convince me NOT to vote Green in '08.

[dysfunctional press]

and governing from the right of center AIN'T gonna do it.

[bluestateguy]

1. I see from your profile that you are in Chicago

Safe blue state.

Do whatever you want.

[Frances]

2. Then I suggest you start Greenunderground.com

Wouldn't you be more comfortable in a forum composed of Greens?

[Ferret Annica]

16. The main problem with your logic is the Democratic party

is way too much like the Republicans these days. You feel comfortable in a party where those on the right to middle of the Democratic political spectrum sound and act like vanilla flavored Repugs?

[LoZoccolo]

22. All who are sick of these tired lines say "aye". n/t

[A-Schwarzenegger]

28. Motherfucking Aye!

[LoZoccolo]

30. Thank you. Side note: Greens were still not satisfied with Lamont.

They put a candidate in the Conneticut Senate race.

[Ferret Annica]

37. If the Green candidate bothered you in the Nutmeg State

perhaps the Democratic party should support a system of voting whereby a voter's second choice is recorded if their first choice does not garner a thrush hold of the voting percentage.

The system sucks because it is designed by the two majors to keep all minor parties dis-empowered and make it hard for them to grow.

I submit the stress of there being a Green on the ballot in Censored late Democratic Senator Tom Dodd's state, the state of the traitorous slime called Lieberman, the state that had Prescott Bush as a senator for ten years, is partially the Democrats damn fault for co-engineering a system that keeps the two current major parties the only game in town.

Make it easier to vote third party by allowing the voters to register a second choice to prevent a third party candidate from assuming the role as a spoiler. I simply do not care if a green candidate troubles you if your party is unwilling to promote options to make the system more competitive.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

39. "if their first choice does not garner a thrush hold"

That dog won't fly.

[Ferret Annica]

41. Yes it will. The technology is there to make this happen

and the voters are intelligent enough to understand and use this option of offered to them.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

45. "the voters are intelligent enough"

Woman told Adlai Stevenson all the intelligent people
would vote for him. Adlai said, "Thank you, madam, but
I need a majority." Your thrush hold idea gets the bird.

[kiahzero]

42. That's an interesting perspective on history

It's wrong, but interesting nonetheless.

Democrats damn fault for co-engineering a system that keeps the two current major parties the only game in town.

It's not like there was a great debate on plurality voting or anything. It's just the most intuitive way to run elections, and there hasn't been enough of a push for change to get past the institutional and social inertia.

[Ferret Annica]

50. Let me clarify then;

"That's an interesting perspective on history it's wrong, but interesting nonetheless."

My point was simply that the system has failed the people by occasionally giving the people of Connecticut bad people as winners of Senate races.

Prescott Bush was a Nazi sympathizer who never should of heal office. Tome Dodd a drunk who deserved worse then being censored, and Lieberman, a Republican in Democratic drag is bad for Connecticut and bad for America.

Sorry of I failed to make the point there I was trying to make. I grew up in Connecticut and still care about my old home state and do know something about Connecticut politics.

[LoZoccolo]

46. No no no no that's lame.

Serious. A vote is a real decision that you have to take responsibility for, not a chance to "express yourself". You can do that with a box of crayons and some construction paper if you like. A vote affects peoples' lives; people live or die based on who's put in office, and there are people out there who insist on abdicating their choice to a Republican who does know how the system works. And I'm convinced some people, no matter what happens or who stands for what, will always want that air of deviancy that third-parties provide.

[Ferret Annica]

47. The monopoly of the two party system creates stagnation

look at how much alike the two majors often seem to be. Look how complacent people get knowing they have no other competitors able to build past the thrush holds of the artificial barriers built into the system.

Third parties should be empowered by options that allow them to grow without the worry of being branded as a spoiler. Personally I like the two system allowing a first and second choice for voters to allow third party growth.

It would invigorate and stimulate the system in ways the current system lacks if people knew that should their first vote for a third party be made moot if a set thrush hold of voting percentage is not met.

This is not by any means the only way to do this or course, but ultimately it is good for this country to get over the thought of these two major parties, the Democratic and Republican parties forever being the only game in town.

[Selatius]

60. Yeah, and the two party system is a success as well (whatever)

By your logic, the Titanic was a success because there's enough lifeboats for half the passengers. Funny, I guess being the last industrialized country in the world without universal health care would be considered a no no.

The reality of the situation says only two parties will be viable, but the good thing for all progressives and those who favor change is that reality can be changed, that a better order of things can be ushered in.

[Leopolds Ghost]

62. Lemme get this straight: It's irresponsible to suggest a non-fascist future for the Repub party

...you assert the unacceptability of any Republican being elected to office, as they aid and abet the fascist, anti-constitutional modern Republican Party with which you seek to pair all those who don't vote Democratic.

In other words, you advocate a one-party state.

Like those authoritarian Middle Eastern secular regimes who allow the only real opposition to their staid centrist elitism, to be conducted by right-wing religious extremists, so that they may have someone to run against and declare: "apres moi, le deluge".

[Occulus]

57. And cost Lamont the seat.

:evilgrin:

:sarcasm:

But only half so.

[MnFats]

3. be sure to take into account the last SIX!

you want those wretched bastards back again?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

4. Gonna vote for Nader again, huh?

Good luck with that......just stay in Illinois so it doesn't do any damage, please.

[Ferret Annica]

12. Nader is not in the Green Party

He was not our canidate the last election. And he won't be the next one either.

[Erika]

5. They'll vote green and turn elections red

A few of them still exist.

[demwing]

6. Tell you what, you have two years to convince me why you SHOULD vote green.

If you do, I'll join you. But if you can't make a valid argument for voting green, then vote dem, and make your vote matter.

[Dr Fate]

7. The Webb-Makkaka race should be all you need to convince you.

That was a close one- the greens almost spoiled it that time.

[Arkana]

25. The Greens as we know them didn't run a candidate

in the Macacalypse Now race--the Independent Green Party of Virginia did...so blame them.

(NOTE: THIS MESSAGE IS NOT MEANT TO DEFEND WHAT RALPH NADER AND OTHER GREENS HAVE DONE TO DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES IN CLOSE RACES.)

[Dr Fate]

31. Same difference. n/t

n/t

[kiahzero]

43. The IG's of VA seem to be more conservative than the Green Party.

So no, not "same difference."

[countmyvote4real]

8. That makes two of us, but I'm hoping we get more Feingolds.

He is a real progressive and defender of the Constitution from the DemocratIC Party.

[w4rma]

9. In other words you are going to sit on your hands and watch Democratic progressives fight for you.

Thanks for the help. :sarcasm:

[nofurylike]

15. excellent translation of OP. concise as poetry. thank you! eom

[Ferret Annica]

18. I am a Green and did grass roots work and more for Kerry in 2004

Just belonging to the Green Party does not mean that when a crime syndicate like the Bush family and the shadow government that supports them endangers America we aren't willing to roll up our sleeves and help Democrats replace these cretins.

[Der Blaue Engel]

55. But you supported Kerry, because you knew what was at stake

The OP seems to be saying he/she would not do the same if in that position in '08.

Thank you for helping us fight the good fight. We need more people who think like you do.

[LoZoccolo]

19. WINNER!

:thumbsup:

("WINNER!" is what I give out in the absence of not being able to recommend replies.)

[Ferret Annica]

32. I am not sure what you mean by that, but I'm glad you seem too

Republicans tried to get Nader on the ballot (not as a Green) in Oregon after his two mini conventions in Portland failed to garner the 1000 signatures needed to get him on the ballot.

I was working at Portland Saturday Market and the firm collecting these signatures was in our building on SE 1st Street near W Burnside St. I saw the petition gatherers cheating.

Many of them were homeless and many were drug addicts. I saw them swapping signatures from one person's sheet to another's, saw them gun deck signatures from entries in phone books and by other means such as telling people the petition was to keep Nader off the ballot which was a lie.

I am a forest activist as well as a Green. I sought out the SEIU Union and the law firm representing Kerry's interest in Oregon and gave them the information.

This whistle blowing was investigated and I was able to provide the tools needed to keep Nader off the ballot in Oregon. I was mentioned in the first articles breaking the story in the Oregonian and the Register Guard in Eugene, and spoke at the press conference breaking the story at the SEIU Union hall in Portland.

I did not want to see Republicans split the plurality of the electorate to allow Bush to take Oregon that year or cause resources to be wasted holding the line in Oregon. All this is verifiable.

The fact I was and am a Green added currency to my word as I was not a Democrat with a vested interest, I was a Green who had voted for Nader the last two elections, and who was primarily alarmed by the Bush presidency and it's criminal nature.

Greens are not the enemy, we are a progressive force and the fact some of us want to grow our party is not something to feel sour or angry over.

Michael J. McCarthy

[Leopolds Ghost]

63. Why vote Green if you want to keep candidates off ballot unless Dems are safe?

Sounds stupid to most Dems AND third party advocates, which is why the Green party is dying.

[Raiden]

What are the Greens gonna do for you?

They don't even have any members in the government...Just what makes them a better alternative to Democrats? At any rate, I don't think you have anything to worry about. Remember, Nancy Pelosi is an admitted liberal from San Fran-fuckin'-cisco. It can't get any better than that.:bounce:

[jesus_of_suburbia]

10. I'm sure you voted Republican anyway

So voting Green will be a wonderful thing for us!

[seabeyond]

11. do tell the democratic party what you demands are..... geeez n/t

[nofurylike]

13. the Green Party has had thirty-five years to do the hard

work it would have taken to change this form of democracy to one that would support multiple parties, versus the kind that merely uses extra-parties to empower the wealthiest.


but, alas, so many white male-supremacist megalomaniac greens just HAD to run for bigwig offices, while us shit-workers saw them wheelndeal with other bigwigs, that, well, 35 years later, you're still threatening the democratic party with taking yourself away from it (that would be megalomania, no?), rather than doing that hard shitty work.


you have always had the option of cooperatively greening the people's party, that is, the democratic party.
but then, it's so much more fun for megalomaniacs to be bigwigs in small parties, isn't it?

[crispini]

34. You know, this actually has the ring of truth to me.

Why is it that the Greens (or, in Texas, the libertarians) are always able to field candidates for the highest races on the ballot, but you very rarely see a third party candidate running for those races which REALLY make the difference:

School Board
County Commmissioners Court
County Clerks
City Council
State House
State Senate
etcetera.

It's fascinating to me, because those are EXACTLY the kind of races that can be WON with the hard work you cite: Lots of shoe leather, door knocking, and attention to the issues and the real voters. And in the case of State legislative offices, these are platforms to launch statewide voting reforms like IRV.

Interesting, very interesting.

[nofurylike]

61. yes, very well said, crispini. much more clearly put than i could

in my frustration at the OP. thank you.

one of the reasons the green party has made inroads in some countries is that they started out doing that, running for local positions - and also, thereby, becoming known and trusted as a solid party.
another reason is that those countries have more representational forms of democracy, which many of us here fought with green party bosses to focus on creating in the u.s.

there are too many who want to be stars! and too many of those working to win local offices do all the grunt work, only to see the 'stars' walk out on those local election fights. (often taking the money and media with them.)

it is sad, because in countries where greens have won some representation, they form coalitions with other parties and contribute solid political and ideological growth to those parties too.
(well, they had, though i haven't seen how they've faired through the *aaaargh! years, in other countries.)

it is so familiar to me to hear u.s. greens use tactics like threatening to sabotage dems in elections - the one trick they know and blithely wield, as we know all too well.
i have too often been heartsick listening to greens self-congratulate for turning elections to repugs, them thinking that means they're powerful. me knowing it just means they have been well used.

[LoZoccolo]

14. This video should surely convince you.

It is my finest compelling rhetoric for all those considering third parties.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xOdATCFM30

Please, accept my humble offering. It is only about a minute long.

[Avalon Sparks]

26. Funny Video...

Nader should have dropped out of the 2000 election - he was in politics for years and he KNEW what Repub control would bring. CORRUPTION and WAR PROFITTERING. He knew how close the election would be.

He didn't have a chance in hell of winning the election. It was like he was trying to prove some bizzare point but refusing to drop out. He seemed to want it to get so bad that America would welcome the Green party with open arms eventually. Well in the last 6 years this country has gone to hell and the people sent the Democratic party back in to clean up the mess -

Sure the Green party platform is good - but too liberal for the majority of this country and you have to be realistic. I consider myself as Liberal as they come but the facts are the facts and I'll take the party that tosses me some crumbs over the one that screws the majority of this country over.

Until BIG money is taken out of polictics altogether -i.e. the extinction of lobbyists and we have public financing of elections - the Greens don't stand a chance in hell of ever winning the Presidency.

[LoZoccolo]

27. I ran into that guy later in a bookstore.

Guess what I said to him!

[lapfog_1]

17. Question for you

How is Ralph Nader doing with puttin out the word on global warming?

Oh, that's right, not so much.

Listen, if Al Gore runs again in 2008, and you vote Green... well, words fail me.

I resigned the Green Party after 2000. Dems are not Repukes or any form of Repuke-lite.
We may have just barely avoided a fascist state. or a theocracy. I hope we've avoided it.
But really, it was a close call... those fascist laws are still on the books. And the Chimp is still in the White House, plotting away.

After we get a 60-40 Senate majority, and a 80+ seat House majority, and there is a Dem in the WhiteHouse... and you want to support Greens or someone else, go right ahead... until then, we still need you on the barricades against these evil bastards.

[Kerrytravelers]

53. That would require voting strategically.

And it seems that if the Democratic Party doesn't do everything the way people want, they get mad and threaten to vote with another party. In times like these, people should be thinking strategically. I could never understand the people in 2004 who told me Kerry was too centrist or conservative. As compared to what?!? Especially the voters in red states. It made absolutely no sense. They would cite one or two difference they had with him, sometimes on really insignificant little things. My basic summation, in 2004, a vote for a third party candidate was a vote for *. And now, with things still so close, how anyone could possibly not vote strategically makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. As the poster said above, convince me to vote Green and then maybe we can have a conversation. Until then, it is simply a throw away vote.

[LoZoccolo]

20. Been a while since we heard from this guy. n/t

[Kerrytravelers]

56. Well, we are all happy and rejoicing in our hard work.

It's now time to stand in a circle and shoot each other. It's time to argue and criticize before anyone even takes their new offices. It's time to second guess and label them before they've placed their first vote. And if that first vote isn't exactly what we want, watch out! The shit will hit the fan then. :eyes: No one is saying conform to the party lines, but for Heaven's sake, the adults are finally back in charge and yet, there are people who still aren't happy. I don't think anything will please some. And this is Democratic Underground, not Convince Me To Vote Democratic Underground. If this last election didn't convince you, you simply do not want to be convinced.

[gardenista]

21. Whatevah....

Too bad you can't enjoy the victory

[Floogeldy]

23. Oooooooooooh. Stop making the Democratic Party shake in its boots!

[Ferret Annica]

40. Stop habitually snatching defeat from the jaws of victory

With all due respect, Democrats are often their own worst enemy. Without third parties Democrats are all to often able to neutralize themselves with ill times shots to the foot.

[kiahzero]

44. Everyone knows you're supposed to shoot your face, not your feet. (n/t)

[kiahzero]

24. Good for you.

While you're at it, you should probably buy a gun. You know, to shoot your nose to spite your face.

[Kerrytravelers]

29. Need attention? Seriously, buy a dog. Don't waste DU space with these kind of pointless posts.

:eyes:

[Ferret Annica]

38. Indeed, as if there were not an extraordinary number of thread

duplications constantly in here caused by people thinking their one sentence thread is the first and only posting on an issue. People never look or take time to craft a good thread, thus discussions on issues and stories is constantly watered down in here.

Clean up your own act first, before attacking a Green merely for posting much as everyone else in here does. ;-)

[Rainscents]

49. I heard, Green Party in Virginia is Neo Libertarian.

Is this true? I heard it on the radio.

[Kerrytravelers]

51. Here's a one-liner for you...

*Yawn* Just another negative thread tearing apart all the hard work of good people all across this country. Typical. *Yawn*

[A-Schwarzenegger]

33. Bring back

Hide Thread.

[upi402]

35. Push for a coalition maybe. Or be pushy at Dem precinct meetings

I know it's ugly, but...
I've felt it would be better to just get it overwith and support REPUBLICAN DESTRUCTION -IN HOPES OF A REBUILDING.

This election has surprised me though. Maybe Dems will lead for once and act like real Dems.

[featherman]

36. Me, I'm still pushing for a new "Values Party" headed

by James Dobson and cohorts. :)

[Torgo Johnson]

48. I just love overnights at DU...

The flamebait threads just seem to pop up like flies during this time.


Also, I can't help but to notice the OP hasn't even bothered to respond
to any of the replies.

[Kerrytravelers]

54. You noticed that, too, huh?

[dweller]

52. did someone mention flies?

it's not easy being green ...
dp

[philly_bob]

58. Lookin' for a lever to nudge Democratic Party toward the left...

away from Lieberman foreign policy and Biden corporate favoritism.

[JCMach1]

59. Very good... put you ideology before the good of the country

an outstanding and very Bush-like attitude... :sarcasm:

[Moderator]

64. locking

This is flamebait.