"If I were raped today, I would not report it "

[noamnety]

When I was 18 I worked in a pub, and, one evening, the landlord and his son tried to rape me. Somehow I managed to get away. I didn't report the incident to the police because, back in 1980, it was widely recognised that women who reported a sexual assault were usually seen as liars. I imagined that the police would have grilled me on why I was upstairs with two men (I was taking a sneaky break and sharing a cigarette with the son), and why I had been drinking (I had had half a pint of lager). For years afterwards, while campaigning against rape and other crimes as a founder of the group Justice for Women, I bitterly regretted not reporting my attackers. My overwhelming feeling was guilt. What if they succeeded next time?

Now that guilt has been replaced by anger. While in the 1980s and 1990s police and public attitudes towards rape victims seemed to be improving, they more recently appear to be ricocheting backwards. So much so, that a couple of years ago I made a pact with myself, which I vowed never to reveal publicly. At this juncture I feel I must, though: if I was raped now, I do not think I would report it to the police. ...

http://society.guardian.co.uk/crimeandpunishment/comment/0,,1930915,00.html

(found this on http://www.genderracepower.blogspot.com/)

[WindRavenX]

1. one of the most enduring, painful lies about women is that.....

....they lie often about being raped/harassed. False reports of rape are at the same rate as any other crime.

All too often, women are blamed for the act.

It's a shame.

[SheilaT]

2. But you (or whoever's story this is)

wasn't raped. Attempted rape, while nasty and despicable, isn't rape itself.

[readmoreoften]

4. So....you don't think that attempted rape is a crime?

I'm pretty sure it is.

[SheilaT]

29. Attempted rape is not exactly the same as rape.

There's a lot missing from this story.

[readmoreoften]

32. There is nothing missing from this story. What are you talking about...

Someone attempted to rape the news columnist and that prompted her to get involved with an anti-rape movement. Where did this woman say that "attempted rape is exactly the same as rape"? Your strawman is showing.

[noamnety]

33. I think everyone here can agree

That an attempted rape is not a completed rape. Not sure what that adds to the discussion, but I see no dissent on that point.

[Fleshdancer]

38. while it isn't a complete rape, it is still a violation

discrediting the trauma and crime of an attempted rape is like saying that a mugging didn't really happen since there was no money in your wallet.

on edit: I don't think you are discrediting the trauma and crime of an attempted rape. My response was meant for a different post. :)

[readmoreoften]

43. Absolutely.

I escaped from being gang raped from about 12-15 men. Then people said. "Wow, you were really lucky something could've happened" It was driving me crazy. No I wasn't LUCKY and something did HAPPEN." It could've most certainly been "worse" but come on, give me a break.

[Fleshdancer]

48. holy CRAP!

I can't begin to comprehend the fear you must have felt. And then to be called "lucky"? Wow. It's amazing how people assume that penetration is the only thing that affects the victim. The fear and loss of control over one's own body always seems to be discounted.

My attempted rape situation occurred when I was 13. After the 4th time screaming "STOP!" I started hitting and crying/screaming. He stopped but the feeling I had at that point will never be forgotten. I felt like a caged animal.

[readmoreoften]

50. I didn't feel anything.

I was completely calm and numb. It's the numbness that is the hardest to wear away. An officer who was an acquaintance told me that I ought to not go to police because the guy who started (and oddly enough stopped) the attack on me was seriously connected inside the police force. I was told by the officer himself to never go to the police and advised to hire bodyguards instead.

[Fleshdancer]

60. I've read about the numbness factor...a self defense mechanism, right?

how f*cked up is it to hire body guards in order to protect yourself when you already pay for the services provided by the police??? Damn.

Makes me wonder how many women this asshole has raped over the years. :grr:

[readmoreoften]

63. Assholes. In the plural. Probably a lot.

It was a complicated situation. They were looking for another girl. (She actually was found dead that weekend) They were thugs. It was at a bar. When they had me cornered, I thought that the 10 or 12 bar patrons were staring in horror. Then one said "pass her over here." I think that's when my liberal warmfuzziness for all of suffering humanity up and died. Later I met a friend who was gang raped in a grand central bathroom. No one stopped it. People just walked out all freaked out or joined in. The girl is an m-e-s-s. Unrecoverable. Seriously bulimic. Urinating-on-herself alcoholic. I'm fairly sure that SOMEONE was convicted in her case although we never discussed it. A mutual friend (who knew her beforehand) said that she was in the hospital for 6 months.

I, personally, think that majority rapists don't even really think that they are rapists.

[BreweryYardRat]

100. I hate Kitty Genovese syndrome.

Hate it hate it hate it. If you see someone being raped, beat the shit out of the rapist/rapists, or if there's too many, call 911!

The cops answering a 911 call generally should not be the sort of people who would abuse their power in order to get away with rape.

Question: Were you in a big city or some tiny podunk town?

[Jamastiene]

71. I've been in a similar situation and my therapist

pointed out to me years later when I finally got some counseling for the PTSD that attempted rape is still an assault under the law. Think about it this wayl if someone punches someone, that's assault. If someone rapes someone, that's sexual assault. The actual crime of attempted rape is somewhere between assault and sexual assault. It's still a crime.

[Bassic]

77. Yeah, so I guess

she shoudln't feel any trauma for it. Heck, even looks like it might have been fun, the way she describes it!


In case someone can't tell: :sarcasm:

[LostinVA]

85. Smokes, beer, some rough foreplay

Sounds like a great time -- why the hell is the slut complaining about it.

Jeebus.

And, the comments on this thread that attempted rape isn't a "real" assault is sick.

[Bassic]

88. Every time I read comments like that here

I feel like repeatedly hitting my head against a wall.

[LostinVA]

89. I know...

[SheilaT]

80. I guess I was going from the original

statement that said, if I were raped today I'd report it, and then went on to talk about attempted rape.

There really is a difference between the two.

I'm one of the many women out there who's experienced rape under circumstances that I didn't go to the authorities. In both cases I'd made some foolish choices, got into a situation where giving in seemed the safest choice. Were I to give the details (which I'm not about to) those on this forum would be divided about whether it was really a rape or simply not fully consensual sex. I have many regrets about allowing the situation to get out of hand, so to speak. In short, I know that a charge of rape would not have been provable in a court of law.

But I in no way diminish the emotional impact. These are things I've never spoken of to others, and even my circumspect description here is more than I've ever said out loud, ever.

Rape or any instance of non-consensual sex is at best unpleasant, and often traumatic, and should never be minimized.

But I'm distinguishing between attempted and completed rape, and it feels as if the original post was not distinguishing. If it was, I stand corrected. And in any case, I apologize for any offense I may have given to anyone in this topic.

[noamnety]

81. I know that's a hard thing to admit

Another poster here messaged me a few weeks ago about coming face-to-face with the understanding that this is The common story of being female in our society. Part of what she wrote was very haunting: "I think I can count the number of close (or close-ish) friends I have without stories on both hands. That number goes down all the time, too. Seriously thinking about it right now, I could maybe count them on one hand. Some I don't know their stories, but I know they have them.

One day they're all "Nothing like that has ever happened to ME!" and then a while later they're all "Well..."

[REP]

67. "Attempted" Means The Woman Escaped

If you read down further, you can see how I describe me jumping from a car going fairly fast to avoid being taken to a second location after a paroled rapist failed to rape me in the first location to which he had taken me. If I hadn't been fighting and screaming like hell, I'd probably been raped in location #1 and/or killed in location #2 (when kidnaped, it's important to never let the abducter take you to a second location). There are some details missing from my account, because it was 19 years ago and a not very pleasant evening.

[Lindacooks]

82. Attempted rape is assault.

And can be assault with a deadly weapon if a weaspon is used.

That's okay with you?

[Ms. Toad]

110. Actually, it can be a lot worse emotionally.

If I am raped, I know how it ends - and that I was able to survive it and move on.

If something interrupted the rape, my imagination goes wild as to how it might have ended. I don't know if I could have survived and moved past it - and so I am even more paralyzed by what might happen the next time.

(Rape survivor, and survivor advocate with a local rape crisis center for 10 years).

[noamnety]

111. Thanks for adding your thoughts here

Both this one and the one about the male ER physicians were eye-opening for me.

[Warpy]

6. How bad does it have to be?

I'm betting the woman who wrote the article didn't trust men for a very long time, if ever.

[Jamastiene]

69. Uhm, it is still sexual assault under the law.

Even in a shithole like my hometown, attempted rape is still considered sexual assault and it is still against the law. It also still does a lot of emotional and physical damage to the person being raped.

[readmoreoften]

3. In very few circumstances would I report a rape to police.

I've seen what happens first hand. A neighbor was abducted by a crackhead and held at knifepoint in her own car for three days. The cops didn't research the case seriously because she was leaving a bar and in a dress. (You know, the type of girl who goes to a bar with friends-- she must be off somewhere having a three day orgy)

Our neighborhood looked for her 24 a day. A local found her car (she was tied up in it) and contacted the police for backup. She's fine now. She'd probably be dead if it weren't for the neighborhood.

[noamnety]

5. Yep, I've seen the system, too

a few times, I've seen it in action. Never once saw a person serve time, though one was convicted and told he was too old to go to jail.

[hedgehog]

7. How many women are missing across America who were last seen

leaving a bar? Somehow an Amber alert is fine for cute kids, but any woman out drinking on her own seems to be fair game.

[readmoreoften]

10. I was sexually assaulted in a hotel after a networking convention.

I was literally choking the drunk who was attacking me and grabbing me, crawling down a carpeted hallway while he tried to drag me to his room by my legs. It was, actually, something like a very black comedy. I got pulled over for speeding on the way home. And I apologized for speeding but I said I had just been sexually assaulted and just wanted to get home. The fact that I was crying helped. He didn't ticket me and asked if I wanted to press charges.

I said no of course. But it was nice that he believed me enough to only give me a "warning" for speeding.

[alittlelark]

16. I'll bet 3/5 of female DUers have been assaulted

possibly more. Your story is scary and sadly typical.

I wish we could make our voices heard as loudly as Breast cancer victims... we are much more numerous.

[readmoreoften]

My partner is the only women I've ever met who hasn't been raped/molested

as far as I know. Every woman I've ever asked or discussed it with has been raped or molested except her. Of course, as a butch lesbian with a chip in her front tooth from getting beaten from a gang of frat boys, she's seen her fair share of hard times.

I guess we're all liars. :sarcasm:

[alittlelark]

23. She may have been assaulted as well....

but is too 'butch' to ever tell anyone.

The 'Liars' are the men who say that rape is not a male issue.

[readmoreoften]

25. Well, my girlfriend isn't lying to me. We've been together for almost 4 years.

She was physically assaulted by her ex-boyfriend as a very young teen (she was 15, he was 19) but he never assaulted her sexually. Still, every other woman I know has been sexually assaulted. At least every woman I've spoken with.

[alittlelark]

28. I was just stating a statistically likely hypothesis.

She may have never been assaulted.

[malaise]

68. I was never raped or molested

and neither were any of my sibblings, cousins or close friends. That said I know many women who were raped and/or molested.

[LostinVA]

86. neither were any of my siblings, cousins or close friends.

That you know of.

Many women don't report it, especially "date rape," or something that almost becomes date rape. Even to close friends and family.

[demgurl]

8. Well I was raped a long time ago....

I did not go to authorities then and I would definitely not now. I have seen how just the people here react to things such as the Duke rape story. If people who are progressive act that way then it only confirms that I was correct in not going to authorities all those years ago.

Please note some of you did have a wait and see attitude but the number of people who blindly stood up for the Duke team (I am a huge Duke fan - go coach K. I even have autographs from the basketball team) is scary.

I finally posted in one of those threads and said that we should not condemn the alleged victim or the team until all of the facts are brought out into the open. The prevailing attitude of shouting, yelling and pointing fingers just confirmed what I already knew in my heart. I will NEVER call the authorities over a rape. Never!

[noamnety]

11. I'm sorry that happened to you.

and I don't blame you at all for not reporting it; I've said before I wouldn't report it if I were raped.

[demgurl]

87. Thank you for your kind words.

It was a long time ago but it took me almost ten years before I could say the actual word 'rape'. Before that I could only say 'when he did what he did'. My boyfriend at the time really tried to help me by getting me to talk about it. I felt he was going to keep prodding me and so I broke up with him. (we were two years into the relationship!) He was only trying to help. Not sure of his phone number but perhaps I should email him and say thanks for caring.

I couldn't even talk to my mom about it because when my Uncle's friend came on to me, when I was all of 15, she grounded me! I kept telling him to remove his arm from around my shoulder but he wouldn't. I gave him plenty of warning and finally told him I was going to hurt him with my fingernails. He laughed and would not remove his arm and I hurt him. He showed my mom the marks I left on his hand and she grounded me! I was 15 and he was 30-something. By the way, years later he was sentenced to jail time because he had abused his position as scout leader and abused some of the scouts. I was not about to tell her I was raped and have her hold me accountable for that as well.

[donsu]

90. I had a uncle with arm around me incident too and when I told my

mother I said this: I'm staying out of X's arm's reach because he tries to touch the side of my breasts. So just so you know why I won't go near him.

she said OK.

I guess even as a teenager I took control of my life.

[noamnety]

92. I'm glad your mother believed you and was supportive

Unfortunately, it's fairly common for a parent to be in denial at the thought of one of their relatives doing such a thing, and the children are victimized again as they have to deal with the parents' resentment because they decided to "make waves" and cause trouble in the family.

There's a good parenting lesson in your post, that just listening and being supportive of your kids when they tell you something uncomfortable can be incredibly empowering for the kids, and can affect how they view themselves.

Your story hits the theme of the article, as well - that if the person you trust to tell your story to (investigator OR parent) treat you with suspicion or like you were to blame in some way, the result is that you learn to shut up. It's a remarkably effective way to teach women to be ashamed of being victims.

[demgurl]

96. Wow!!!!!!

my Uncle (mom's brother) came on to me a year or two after his friend had. Mom went away and left him to look after me. My Uncle came onto me but he did not realize I hid my boyfriend in my bedroom and he had heard the entire thing. I knew mom would not believe me so I did not tell her for a few years. When I did, she did nothing. I finally shamed her into it about ten years after the fact. I had my husband with me as well as my best friend. She could not give me an I-don't-care attitude in front of others.

Mom called my Uncle and he denied it. I finally admitted I had a witness and I said she should call him back. She did call and when he heard I had a witness he said that perhaps he had said something to me but it was misinterpreted! When she got off the phone I pressed her again stating what he had done. She lashed out at me saying wasn't it enough that she would probably never speak to her own brother again and what did I want!!!!

I wish I could have taken control of my life then the way I have now. We live, we learn and we grow. I think it is great you stood up for yourself and shame on both our parents for not doing anything.

[stillcool]

9. in my mind...rape...

or any kind of abuse manifests itself as shame. Even though my mind knows this not to be true, my heart won't give it up.

[readmoreoften]

12. I won't go to the police, but I'll tell you what... I'll give a running list

of every motherfucker that attempted or succeeded in assaulting me. What? Am I supposed to be ashamed for THEIR idiocy. Fuck that noise. I won't go to the police because I know I'll never win a case against a man. Oh, excuse me, unless he's what? African-American. (I have never been assaulted or even threatened by an African-American man.)

[REP]

20. That's Not a Guarantee

The man who kidnaped and attempted to rape me was black (I'm not). He was also on parole for a previous successful rape. The state declined to prosecute him for for my kidnap/attempted rape; a few months later he successfully raped a 12 year old. I was in my 20s when he attacked me - so much for the myth that those who attack children only attack children. Or that a black man attacking a white woman will be prosecuted.

[readmoreoften]

34. I'm sorry for your struggle.

What a shitty situation. :grr:

[REP]

66. Not a Struggle, Exactly

I was aleady well aware that rape is not always taken seriously, especially if the woman manages to escape (in my case, by jumping out of a car doing over 40 mph as he was attempting to take me to a second location). I'm not happy it wasn't prosecuted, or that he only got 5 years for the subsequent rape, but it isn't the central defining moment of my life (nor is being raped when I was 4). Those are unpleasant things I wish that hadn't happened, but they happened a long time ago. I was just pointing out that having an attacker of another race is no guarantee that the attacker will be prosecuted.

[susanna]

83. Interestingly...

On edit: maybe I shouldn't talk about my experience. Second thoughts. n/t

[AlienGirl]

14. This is normal

It is normal for people to feel shame at having been abused, having been powerless. It is normal to want to keep it a secret, not let anyone know because they might think differently of you for not having been able to protect yourself. They might see that you were weak, and if you were weak and got overpowered that time, it might happen again and they will either abandon you so they can be safe, or be the one that attacks you next time.

When it comes down to it, it's a very *old* reaction. Older than mammals. If you watch those reptiles that have social groupings, you'll see them attack and drive off injured group-members. Crows do the same thing, chase off the weak one. So do deer.

It is only natural, then, to be afraid of revealing to your group that you have been "weak," that you have been injured. Even if the thing that hurt you was something no one can be expected to defend themself against, like a tornado or a bullet, down deep in the lizard brain the fear remains: "They will know I can be harmed, they will turn on me."

Tucker

[stillcool]

17. ah...the power of words

that soothe one's soul...thank you.

[AlienGirl]

19. You're welcome, I have read a lot about the effects of trauma

I highly recommend Lenore Terr's work (particularly her book Too Scared To Cry) to anyone trying to understand how a trauma (or many traumas) has affected them. People are not really all that different from each other in many ways, and the effects of trauma's one of them.

(Non-human animals can have post-traumatic stress too...there is a meerkat on Meerkat Manor who was deeply affected by a close call with a predatory bird when he was young, and who shows the same kind of hyperalertness and over-reactions that adult humans who survived trauma in childhood often have. We are all kin.)

Tucker

[stillcool]

27. the hardest part for me..

is making peace with it all, and understanding that abusers have causes for the effect they exhibit, and the abuse in turn provokes unacceptable behaviors. That as you said, we are kin....and a little there but for the grace of god goes a long way..I can't help but scream inside, at the injustices absorbed by life..

[AlienGirl]

31. Understanding the abusers as something other than monsters is really, really hard

I have gotten to the point where I can usually see that there are mostly just broken people in there...usually. There are a couple people I'm having trouble de-monsterizing, but I'm trying.

Tucker

[readmoreoften]

36. Sometimes it's good to keep them monsters.

I've been abused by pitiable people. And then I've been abused by sociopaths. For me, self-preservation lies in doing whatever is right for me. Sometimes forgiveness helps. Sometimes it's completely unnecessary and anger is what is needed. For instance, women who are abused by relatives as children often repress anger towards their violators and, instead, identify with them. The recovery process for someone in such a position is anger.

[alittlelark]

13. Reporting it to the police will give you a much better result down the road.

You will be able to say you tried. I am sick of ppl that are scared to report rape.... THAT is why it is so prevalent in our society. Keep the victims scared (on whatever level) - they don't want to be labeled and ridiculed.....


If every rape in this country was reported we would have about 5% of the current #.

They'd have to release the non-violent drug offenders to make room for the sexual offenders.

[noamnety]

15. It's not so much "scared"

as completely alienated from the system, which is a realistic reaction, given the stats on convictions and jail time.

Edit to add - that's not the reason it's so prevalent in our society. The more I think about that, the more frustrating it is to hear yet another version of blame-the-victim.

[alittlelark]

22. The victim will do much better down the road if she/he reports

... the knowledge that they gave it their best shot will help them dramatically... I'm talking 5-10-20 years down the road.

[noamnety]

24. The people I know that tried using the system

Just seem bitter and jaded by the experience - the process itself was almost as traumatic as the rape, to hear them tell it.

I don't know that any of them would bother again, either. Regardless, I don't think it's fair to get pissed at a trauma victim for dealing with the trauma in the way that best serves her, at present. Her first obligation is to herself, not to make a senseless year long stand for principles with a system that's so stacked against her that it may as well not even exist.

[alittlelark]

30. It is degrading and horrifying.

Getting your pubic hair combed and enveloped, and pictures taken of your genitalia, and pictures taken of bite marks, and JUST THE F'ING EXAM...... it all sucks.


Blacks in America went through worse to establish their PERSONAL IDENTITIES.


As for SEXUAL repression in America... we have a long way to go baby.

[donsu]

91. I guess it's perspective - I'd be helping them get evidence and

looking forward to getting the rapists. I wouldn't feel embarrassed.

[alittlelark]

94. Then you haven't been there.

[donsu]

95. no I haven't been there but I do know I would be in a rage to get the

rapist and I wouldn't be embarrassed.

[alittlelark]

98. You seem to be missing the point.

The rage to catch the rapist I get.... I get it well.


As for the embarrassment, uh, ANY OB-GYN exam is bad enough, now get one x10 after a traumatic experience. The police in the sitation can make it more or less tolerable, but it remains an embarassment to your psyche.

[donsu]

99. I've never thought a ob-gyn exam was bad - what's bad about it?

nt

[alittlelark]

112. Uh, no profile.... are you a female?

If you are you would know. If not... WTF?

[donsu]

113. yes I'm a woman and I've produced 2 babies and nurtured them to

adulthood.

[NMMNG]

18. The "blame the victim" mentality is very much alive even today

And along with it women must fight the "you're making it up" mentality. Is it any wonder so many rapes go unreported?

[krispos42]

21. I probably couldn't sit on a rape jury

If they were trying the rapist, I'd bring a car battery and a set of jumper cables. And arc them together a few times a day.

If they were trying the victem for shooting, beating, or stabbing the bastard to death, I'd be applauding when the prosecutor brought out the pictures of the rapist's corpse.

My ex was abused, and it always drove me nuts. Had a cigarette burn on her arm from when a boyfriend decided she's make a good ashtray. And if I found somebody raping my female roommate, God help him because nobody else will.

[alittlelark]

26. You are one of the 20% or so of men who 'get it'.

You will find a wonderful woman who appreciates you for your intellect/logical thought someday. There are so many of us looking for 'him'.

I was lucky and found him in HS.


PS - your 'Rambo' approach to protecting females in your life may not be the right side to SHOW. It may still exist inside you, but keep it inside - those who would be attracted by it are often 'perpetual victims' due to persona;ity disorders.

[readmoreoften]

35. Not to be picky, but that's runs a little counter to this thread.

Some of the people who are "perpetual victims" are actually-- perpetual victims. Not due to personality disorders, but due to the vast amount of abuse against women. If a woman should never be faulted for being raped once, then she shouldn't be faulted for being raped six times. Either we blame the victim or we don't.

[alittlelark]

39. I'll stick w/ personality disorders.

We should learn how to stay out of the 'my mistake' mantra. I doesn't matter if she/he was assaulted 1 or 10 times. The story remains the same - or quite similar.


1. Bad thing happens.
2. your resonse.


3. Do they keep happening or do you GET AHOLD OF THE SITUATION?

Boot camp should be mandatory for women.

[readmoreoften]

42. What do you mean, get ahold of the situation?

You can't "get ahold of the situation". Men are going to try what they are going to try. Sometimes you get away sometimes you don't. By saying that a woman "failed to get ahold of the situation" you are blaming the victim.

Boot camp won't help. Self-defense courses can a smidgeon. But I tried to collapse the throat of an attacker to absolutly no avail. I even burned him with a cigar. He was drunk and thought it was kinky. There's nothing you can do except fight. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

There is no way to make yourself rape-proof. (except maybe with that rape device that woman built)

[noamnety]

47. I took that to mean if you are in a relationship

rather than a one time attack by a stranger.

Getting hold of the situation assumes a lot of things - free choice, for instance - but in the broader sense of the words which includes economic and social realities.

[alittlelark]

53. 'rape-proof' not possible.

RAPE Unlikely can be accomplished,


1. Make direct eye contact w/ all around you.

2. Ignore all men you meet (if they are interested in you they will find you through your aquaintances (firewall))

3. Assume that any date can be an assaulter. Prepare accordingly.



Be Strong, be prepared, be a Woman.

[readmoreoften]

64. I have been in numerous situations where I was assaulted.

I was never "raped" because, oddly enough, I escaped every time except for when I was continually assaulted by a rapist from 3-4 (maybe even younger). Not much you can do about that. I am such a fierce woman that I actually have to tone down my harshness to get through life. I'm a lesbian so I don't date men. My male friends are the most wonderful people in the world, so I have no need to fear them. But the bottom line is that I've cheated rape/murder/abduction many times, but I've never been able to avoid the initial attack. It's impossible. You can-- if you're lucky and in optimal conditions--sometimes defend yourself from an attacker/attackers. But even the process of escaping an attack is traumatic.

[bobbolink]

97. What Shit!!

[krispos42]

37. Damn, it's only 20%?

<sigh> then I guess the ladies had better start packing heat, 'cuz there aren't enough of guys like me out there to sit on all the juries.

I thought I had found the wonderful woman, a year out of high school. Oopsie, I guess. Well, at least our kid is adorable beyond belief!

Your "perpetual victim" comment strikes closer to home than I'd like it too.

[alittlelark]

40. 'Perpetual victims' need to enroll in Aikido.

Most females are raised to be victims. Aikido can fix that.

These are problems bigger than a DU board.

[CarbonDate]

41. Honest questions:

Pardon my ignorance, but how is it possible that rape is going on all around me at the rates cited and that I've yet to notice it? And if 60% of all women are sexually assaulted at some point, what is the statistic on men who are rapists? Finally, one poster described rape as "male issue". I don't dispute that, but what can the apparent 40% of us who are not rapists do about it?

[noamnety]

44. My guess would be

that for whatever reason, women aren't talking to you about those experiences.

Some people tend to be a magnet for those sorts of stories. People trust them, or just inherently know that's a person they can open up to without being judged, I don't know. If you're comfortable talking about feminism and seem like you have a good grasp of gender issues, if you start conversations about it in general, you'll find the underbelly of what women go through.

The rest of you can help by listening and learning, so you recognize patterns of dominent or aggressive behavior and talk about it. If you're in a group of men checking out some woman's ass, think about whether that's part of unwanted sexual attention, whether it's predatory, and what your reaction is to that situation. If a guy is talking about women in a degrading way or joking about rape, think about your reaction.

Aggression toward women is culturally acceptable in a way that racism isn't. Oh, racism still happens, in shameful ways - I don't want to minimize the actual affects, or racism in the media, which is horrifying. Actually, really I can't state strongly enough how overwhelming it is, the more I think about that. But normally you wouldn't be in a group of guys probably, at least not in a semi-professional setting, and have racial slurs tossed around, because it's become unacceptable. Think about if it's acceptable to you to be in the same setting and tossing around gender slurs.

[CarbonDate]

54. I don't typically run with misogynists.

I can recognize the type of behaviors you're talking about. And if the dominant/aggressive behavior is the indicator that I need to watch for, then I'd guess that I was a little generous in my assessment of how many of us are not rapists. I've always been a bit of a social outcast and generally have to find other misfits to run with as a result of that. Perhaps the inherent nature of how our social circles are defined is why I don't see it going on around me.

Honestly, I've never seen aggression toward women as being acceptable. It's not how I was raised, and I've always viewed people who exhibit those tendencies as deplorable people. No matter how many times I hear it, it's always a little surprising to learn that my attitude is in the minority.

I'm sure a certain amount of the denial among the population comes from a guilty conscience as much as anything else. Sort of a "he who lives in glass houses" type of thing. "Well, geez; I remember that one time when I got pretty ripped..." and the reported rape gets dropped.

I can only promise that if one of my troops comes to me about having been sexually assaulted that I'll be dogged in my pursuit of the matter, but I don't know how to make myself inherently more approachable on that issue than I am; I already make myself known as one of the more progressive guys out there on issues like gender equality.

[noamnety]

56. If you're in the military

then having an understanding of how sex and violence are interwoven is incredibly important. Did you read that article that just came out about the Germans and the photo with the skull?

[alittlelark]

45. I described it as a 'male issue'

Is that a problem? Females commit under 5% of rapes.

If you have not noticed rape stats around you you must not be very close w/ your sisters, mother, cousins, nieces, nephews,brothers.....

PLEASE... If you cannot see the sexual assaults around you-you are wearing revisionist/REPUKE - blinders.

[noamnety]

46. I don't see it as a left/right issue

Leftists can be violent and abusive to women as well. Ain't nobody got a patent on that.

[alittlelark]

49. I don't see it as one either.

I do see the fact that Repukes are constantly having to defend themselves on sexual abuse issues as being an issue.

Closeted and repressed ppl have a habit of acting out in EXTREMELY inappropriate manners. Ergo - the current Repuke 'problem'.



Back to the real issue at hand - ANY EXCUSE FOR VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN.... is NO EXCUSE. It is sick, twisted and, uh, I wish we had the infrastructure of the Black panthers (Who had to be taken out by our G'ment). They 'GOT IT'.

[CarbonDate]

51. Did you notice that I didn't dispute it?

I was asking honest questions to try to learn more about the issue. Is that a problem?

And no, I don't notice them going on around me. Sorry. I'm not saying that they're not happening, I just want to know what I need to look for.

Your anger at me is misdirected. I'm not disputing the issues. I'm trying to learn more. Why does that upset you?

On edit: I'd also like to point out that you made no attempt to answer my questions. Your first instinct was just to insult me and my relationship with my friends and relatives. I didn't appreciate that, and if you can't address the matter in a civil manner, then I'm done talking to you.

[noamnety]

52. one of the first things to learn

is that women are pissed off, and understandably so. We hear a whole lot of male denial that there's a problem. It's pretty easy to say you don't see evidence of this, and in your mind, you're just stating an observation, not a judgment. On the receiving end, because we've heard that message so very many times, what we hear is "you're all making this up."

There's a lesson to be learned in the anger itself, even if it feels like it's been turned on you unfairly. Women run a range of keeping silent all the way up to being hopping mad, and there's something to be learned from all portions of the spectrum.

That might be in part why people don't talk to you about it, because the message you're sending isn't what they're hearing. I think that's partly just a matter of getting educated on the issue.

[CarbonDate]

55. Thank you for your understanding.

I'm sure to those who deal with it all the time, someone like me is a bit like showing up in a war zone asking, "so where's the emergency?"

I really am trying to learn more.

[alittlelark]

57. Do you laugh at jokes w/ females as the crux?

Do you like porn w/ females as wanting/needing/ asking? Do you buy CD's w/ women as 'bitches and ho's'? Do you think Victoria's secret is REAL? How many children do you have?


This conversation can get quite deep.

[CarbonDate]

61. I'm trying to answer your first question....

...but I can't think of any jokes that fit that bill. You mean jokes that play on gender stereotypes? I don't typically find them very funny, regardless of which gender is being targeted. I can't state for certain that I never have, though.

As for the rest:

1. I'm not a big purveyor of pornography, certainly not big enough to have developed tastes with regards to types of pornography. I don't get off on domination, if that's what you're asking.

2. I will admit that I do have a few of those types of CDs, but they don't get much play. Actually, I can tell you which ones they are, because they're the only ones I have of that sort: one Eminem CD and one Limp Bizkit CD. They had a few catchy tunes when I bought them, but now they're just gathering dust.

Actually, I won't try to defend my purchase of them. The misgoyny on display in both of them is repulsive. They are the exception, though.

3. Do I think Victoria's Secret is real? You mean do I think that the models aren't air brushed or enhanced? That's a bit like thinking that pro wrestling is real, isn't it?

4. I have no children. I fail to understand what bearing that has on this discussion.

[alittlelark]

59. I just noticed that you have no profile...

sigh.

[CarbonDate]

62. No, I don't.

Was there something specific you were hoping to find out? I don't like leaving my personal information out for just anybody to read.

[Pavulon]

76. Rape is on par with attempt murder

in my book. The average time served of 1st degree rape is 4 years. You will get more time for cheating on your taxes.

Rape should be punished harshly. This story in is in the UK, but in the US a situation like that is justification for the use of deadly force. It is very serious.

My wife works in a hospital, they are always in crappy neighborhoods, if someone tries to steal her car, they will get it. If there is a physical confrontation they will get two in the chest.

This from a quiet woman who went to school to save people.

[krispos42]

78. It is a violent assault. Deadly self-defense force is legal

I wish more intended victims shot their rapists. The world would be a better place.

[stanwyck]

107. I was on a rape jury. What an education

when we got to the jury room, I was completely shaken by how the dialogue went - not at all as I suspected. All my pre-conceived notions were dead wrong. The men were all for conviction. To a man. And a couple of the women were making excuses for the rapist. (We convicted him.) "Well, she knew him. She let him in."
The man had been dating the woman's sister. He knocked on her door late at night to use the phone. Then he attacked the woman. She fought back so intensely she literally bit off the man's tongue. When he was treated at a hospital, the doctor said he had to know what happened in order to treat him. He said "I raped this woman and she bit off my tongue."
So we convicted him.
He maintained it was consensual sex.
Really? Since when in "consensual sex" do you bite off someone's tongue?
And yet we had a couple of people defending him.

[noamnety]

108. That's incredibly disturbing.

I'm at a loss for words.

Thank you though for having a hand in the conviction.

*makes mental note to bite off tongue of rapist if the opportunity presents itself*

[Ms. Toad]

109. In two words: Self protection

If I can make the victim's actions different from how I would act, I can still believe (or fool myself into believing) that I can make myself safe. When I worked as an advocate for rape survivors in the ER I much preferred a male physician (they were much less likely to distance themselves from the survivor by finding reasons she was at fault).

[The Brethren]

58. I applaud her for speaking up

about the issue. I feel bad that she wouldn't report it, but that is each victims' choice. If I were raped today, I would report it and follow through the charges in court if the perpetrator were caught.

[Occulus]

65. Ghosts of the Duke case?

Whatever happened with that, anyway?

[etherealtruth]

73. I don't think we'll ever actually know what happened ...

... in that one particular case. Legally it's probably dead in the water.
What does that have to do with the larger issue?

[NorthernSpy]

105. I suspect the case is heading for dismissal...

And why shouldn't it? A self-contradicting account is a self-contradicting account. A lack of evidence is a lack of evidence. An unmet burden of proof is an unmet burden of proof.

We need to handle rape like we handle every other serious crime. I am completely unsympathetic to this notion that we all somehow "owe" it to women to accept rape accusations at face value -- lifting the burden of proof from the prosecution, and simply presuming against the accused.

(And mind you, I'm a woman myself.)



http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/23/national/main1746924.shtml


(edit:proofreading, typos)

[Red Right and BLUE]

70. I can understand the sentinment

but I ALWAYS report.

I reported when my stepfather hit me.

I reported when a manager where I waitressed sexually assaulted me.

I saw my mother with a beat-up face. Two days later she got him out of jail. Fuck that. I vowed to myself that that would NEVER be me. I will never take that shit. I wish you all felt the same way.

I wish you all healing and peace.

[readmoreoften]

72. If I think I'm going to be raped by the system, there's no way I'm reporting.

Different circumstances, different people. If you have visible marks, makes sense to report plus one. If it's a stranger rape, makes sense to report, plus one. If you have no marks and its acquaintance rape and you're in a shitty town with shitty cops, why bother?

[Red Right and BLUE]

74. I don't like cops any more than other people who are wary of them

But I think in general, you can trust them enough to report a crime. I didn't have marks, and that made no difference to them. If some stranger raped me, I'd report just to get a sketch of him on the news. The cops arrested both people who committed crimes against me.

[noamnety]

75. The stranger rape that I know of

involved a teen being kidnapped at gunpoint back to the rapist's house. They had the grand jury hearing, where she was made out to sound like the guilty party ("provocative clothing" = sweat shirt and overalls), and then the actual trial was scheduled, then postponed. And finally just dropped. *poof* No chance even for a guilty or not guilty verdict, no closure at all, just "since it's been over a year now we assume he's jumped bail so we aren't gonna bother to see if he still lives there or have a trial at this point."

[lukasahero]

79. I would never report it

In fact, I never did and I do not speak of it.

To me, the reasons are obvious.

[Evoman]

84. Threads like this make me feel terrible.

My heart aches at the injustice. How can we let half of our population be treated this way? What can we do about it? Why are there so many of us men who do this shit...and justify it to ourselves. You can see those justifications here...even here, for gods sakes.

Sometimes, I realy fucking hate people.

[bobbolink]

93. I wouldn't report either, cuz I'd be dead.

I've gone through so much shit in this life, and I know I couldn't handle a rape.

So, I made the decision that if I'm ever assaulted, and can't get away, I'd force the asshole to kill me.

That way, I wouldn't have to deal with the agony the rest of my life, and there's a much better chance "the law" would actually make an effort to get the asshole.

Both problems solved.

Only one body.

[BreweryYardRat]

101. Sorry, but that's a stupid choice.

The human jaw can exert 300 pounds of pressure. The carotid artery and jugular vein in the throat are close to the skin. At a guess, most rapists prefer the missionary position, which would put you in close proximity to his neck.

Do you see what I'm getting at here?

[bloom]

103. While I'm not arguing

that people should choose to die...

I don't think it's realistic that the vicitm is going to be able to do what you seem to think is so easy.

For one thing - the rapist is the one with the leverage.

[BreweryYardRat]

106. Leverage is not an issue here.

Just lean up, bite, and jerk back to rip the artery/vein open.

[Daphne08]

102. I was almost date-raped in 1969 (fortunately, I got away from him),

and I didn't want to tell anyone because I felt so ashamed as if I had done something wrong. I know that may be difficult for young people in this day and age to believe, but that is the way I felt back then.

Thankfully, things have changed for women although I suspect the majority of rapes still go unreported.

[NorthernSpy]

104. Just what the hell does she WANT? Automatic conviction of the accused?

I really have to object to this notion that we should reflexively believe just about any rape accusation.

The story that the author cites -- the account of the woman named Shabnam -- is precisely the kind of self-contradicting, less-than-credible rape accusation that a fair jury would pretty much have to reject as "proof" of the accused's guilt.

But she rants on, regardless:

If more cases such as Shabnam's occur, we may as well forget about the criminal justice system and train groups of vigilantes to exact revenge and, hopefully, deter attacks. Because if I were raped, I would rather take my chances as a defendant in court, than as a complainant in a system that seems bent on proving that rape is a figment of malicious women's imagination.

:eyes:

We've had that. It was called "lynching".



Three guesses, anyone, why I no longer wish to be called a feminist?