Was Foley A Honey-pot for Rove?

[Leopolds Ghost]

Think about it. Rumors that Rove is skilled in blackmail (in addition to forgery and use of tainted information, deliberate disinformation, and other "muddying the waters" tactics used by intelligence services.)

People in washington seem positively afraid of the man's ability to dig up dirt on people.

In the spy world, a "honey pot" is a trap, sexual in nature, set for a target to blackmail or otherwise liquidate them as a threat.

[Duer 157099]

1. Not sure I get the point. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. I'm not following.

Are you suggesting that somebody was blackmailing Rove and this is what they were blackmailing him with?

[Leopolds Ghost]

10. No, I'm saying Rove was using him to identify people on Capitol Hill

Republican, Democrat, and media types, who would then be subject to blackmail by Rove

(who, if he followed the pattern set by Hoover, might also be gay, but that's irrelevant.)

Foley's been attending house parties as a Republican leader for over a decade. The gay community would desire to protect him if for no other reason that many top Repubs (according to ex-Republicans David Brock and Andrew Sullivan) are gay, and also because of all the muddying of the waters that would result from outing a man so deeply involved in the "Child Protection" effort, as if to imply you can't be gay and support child protection laws. So he was teflon-proof for years.

And being, in fact, a borderline pedophile, he was the perfect mole for identifying the sexual deviances of other people on Capitol Hill, not just gays, so Rove could exploit them for blackmail. We KNOW Rove engages in blackmail, just like Hoover did. I am sure Rove made Foley an offer he could not refuse.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

12. So you're saying Rove was using Foley to trap other...

gay/pedophile Republicans.

That's assuming Foley was interested in other congressmen and not just pages. It also seems that Foley would be an enormous liability to Rove, not other congressmen per se.

[Leopolds Ghost]

17. Foley was ALREADY an enormous liability when Rove-er-Bush took office

A liability which was clearly capable of being exploited, since they
urged him to remain in office.

Look, you people need to wake up and realize what blackmail is all about.

It happens thru a network of informants. The informats themselves do not want to be exposed. Rove didn't want him exposed, and he didn't want him gone either. Foley, precisely because he was so dirty, would not have been perceived as a threat by potentally blackmailable Congressmen. You bet your ass he knows who's doing what in Washington, especially since some of the closeted gay Republican underlings who knew about Foley ACCEPTED his advances and you can bet they had even more dirt on gay interns, etc. As has been discussed on political blogs that knew about Foley long before these e-mails came out. Foley buggering pages was known (unproven) for years, the Repubs admitted as such this week! Rove made sure he stayed in office because his compromised status provided Rove with the perfect informant. THIS IS HOW BLACKMAIL IN WASHINGTON has always worked.

[Matariki]

30. Don't you think they could have found a better looking 'trap'

than Foley? That alone makes what you are saying rather unlikely. That guy is hardly appealing. Unless he was pimping out those pages - then you might be on to something.

[Leopolds Ghost]

33. 10 years ago, Washingtonian did a puff piece on Foley as sex symbol

I can't find the link but someone recently posted a thread on it today in GD. It was entitled "How to date a Congressman" or something like that. Mind you this was 10 years ago. It seems to me that Foley has some repressed-sexuality issues that, coupled with a decline in his physical prowess, undoubtedly led to a fixation on young pages who he could exploit. Notice how he seems to feel the need to get drunk before going after them. He is probably too ashamed of his sexuality to have a "normal" gay relationship with someone closer to his own age.

[Maven]

37. First of all, the gay community would never protect this scum.

The Republican community protected him, that much is clear.

Signed,

A "Sexual Deviant"

:eyes:

[Leopolds Ghost]

39. The "Velvet Mafia" protected him and honest gay ex-Republicans

like David Brock and Andrew Sullivan warned people about his behavior (I recall Washington Monthly doing a short piece about the rumors) but the fact is the "velvet mafia" consists of gay REPUBLICANS.

Foley was a casting couch for conflicted, closeted gay Republicans --
think about it --

the perfect way to guarantee loyalty and solidarity.

And that is a claim that David Brock made about Foley years ago when he revealed the existence of the "velvet mafia", run out of DeLay's office, and refused to out them because it would be unethical (and the fear of being outed was precisely the blackmail tool used to keep these closeted Republicans in line.)

David Brock, Sullivan, and Washington Monthly claimed DeLay was responsible for keeping Foley in power. Interesting how no one has brought him up. They are afraid of the information he used Foley and his pages (future Congressional staffers who Foley arranged jobs for) to collect.

[Hoping4Change]

44. You are so off the mark. Are you familiar with Melman and the

velvet Mafia? Being gay is no guarantee of being enlightened.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2298454&mesg_id=2298454

[Leopolds Ghost]

45. So would you agree with my theory? I first read about this "Texas Mafia"

A couple years ago. I don't think it takes a conspiracy to keep someone like Foley in power on the grounds that "he knows where the bodies are buried, and with Foley in there, we know where the gays are on Capitol Hill at all times."

It's a patronage system. Foley's office was being used as a casting couch for future Congressional staffers.

What better way to pick and choose people for loyalty? It's literally like a Mafia initiation.

David Brock (or someone) alluded to this, in an article a couple years ago.

After all, there are no shortage of closeted rich white Republicans, and like religious converts (think George Allen's family) they are often the most devout and insistent on pronjecting their public lifestyle and newfound piety. That is how Jewish people carved a niche for themselves in medieval finance -- aside from religion, the rulers felt they were easy to control and they formed a persecuted caste of middle managers, wherein everyone was known to everyone else, and nobody wanted to bring down opprobium on the caste, thus creating an atmosphere of group solidarity.

[Hoping4Change]

52. I do agree with you. Last week McGreevey was on Jon Stewart .

He said that that being gay and in the closet actually helped him be a better politician as he was adept at keeping up a facade. He had to be wilely, manipulative, cynical and cold. Being a closeted gay gave him an edge. I mention this because I think Foley shares those traits and could easily play the role of a "honey-pot".

[Leopolds Ghost]

54. This reminds me of how many actors have OCD

Accordoing to psych books on OCD, many people with obsessive-compulsive disorder become actors or managers or leaders, because they are adept at maintaining a public facade and keeping their compulsions private.

Obviously being gay is not a compulsion. But being gay and repressed and in the closet may have led Foley to fixate on teenage boys, so maybe the closeted, repressed mentality is similar to OCD, because he feels uncomnfortable hanging out with gay people his own age, and apparently feels the need to get drunk before hitting on staffers?

[Maven]

46. Mehlman and whatever inner circle of gay AND straight powerplayers

he represents doesn't represent the gay community at large.

I was objecting to the tone of this post in general. I think the OP has gotten carried away and is crossing the line into offensive. Now he's comparing this super-secret "velvet mafia" (which is really just a way to pawn off the sordid powerbroker culture on gays) to some idea he has of medieval Jews as toadies and "middle managers" for the power elite. (???) :eyes:

Edit: I can see from your posts in the thread you linked to exactly where it is you're coming from. Come back to earth, please.

[Hoping4Change]

48. I cannot say in strong enough terms how wrong it is to talk of a

gay community. I think it is a complete illusion. It is a meaningless abstraction. If there were such a thing as a gay community, then niether the Log House Repukes nor would the Velvet Mafia would exist. The belief that certain communities exist whether they are black, gay etc completely overlooks the reality of class. Gay Repukes such as Melman, Foley, (Rove) etc know which side of their bread is buttered and they don't give a rat's ass for their gay brethen.

The reality is that gay repukes as described by Padcraig Pearse are in fact sordid powerbrokers. These guys are not victims.

[Leopolds Ghost]

49. "Exactly where I'm coming from??"

I made the comparison because gays are a persecuted minority, much as Jewish people were persecuted in the "old days". They had to rely on
group solidarity to get ahead. There were caste systems. I learned
this in high school history. Most people I know who are Jewish are proud of their heritage and what they have accomplished in the face of official persecution. Why aren't you?

Gay republicans (and substantial segments of the urban gay community, AND other ethnic groups, as I noted) are merely repeating this phenomenon of a persecuted group relying on in-group solidarity to get ahead. It is an age-old phenomenon.

The only difference between gay Hill staffers using connections to get ahead and, say, gay hairdressers, ethiopian parking attendants or white male stockbrokers (plenty of those in Jersey, you know) is that gay Republicans are ASHAMED of their identity and thus subject to blackmail by powerbrokers outside of the group.

However, another poster on this thread claims that the gay Republicans HE knows take a certain thrill from the secreteve, "inside-y" nature of their lifestyle and detest "out" gays for trying to mainstream what they see as some sort of secret, elite skull-and-bones thing. I can't speak for that poster, it is an awfully unusual viewpoint, but read it yourself.

Don't be so naive as to ascribe an honest portrayal of how society works to political incorrectness. People rely on family and group solidarity -- religious, ethnic or sexual -- to get ahead. For persecuted minorities, it's often the only way to stay off the streets. I'm sorry if they taught you the opposite in college history classes.

[izzie]

3. I read Foley turned over a lot of money to the party.

I guess he had so much he did not need it to run. What do you think?

[MADem]

5. He was buying SILENCE....he's given them $550K over the years

And the guy holding the dough was that fucker Reynolds...!

[izzie]

60. My thought also. But still the GOP was going to keep this out

of the news even if he had not sent in his pile of money. Bad people.

[Iwasthere]

Thats it!

Spread the word!

[MADem]

4. A honey pot is usually a cutie....not a tired looking flabbyass 52 year

old schmuck. Hell, even TOM CRUISE is getting past his Honey Pot sell-by date!!! :rofl:

[Carni]

13. OK that's like the third time you have gotten me today

LOL You're on a roll!

[Catherine Vincent]

31. LOL!

[Hoping4Change]

56. A gay friend of mine does specialized paint finishes for exclusive

interior designers who have clientel like Peter Munk of Barrick Gold. What never ceases to amaze me is how quickly people confide in my friend who is gay. And its not inconsequential information, people go into detail: one person described how a safe buried a safe in their garage to hide surplus cash, another how she and her hubby launder money through the antiques trade, the list is endless. My friend and I have often discussed this. He believes that people who have stuff to hide feel that he is not going to judge them by mainstream values. Anyway I think gay man of a certain age and personality are used as confessors and are in effect emotional if not sexual honey-pots. And I might add power is often as effective if not more effective as cuteness when it comes to honey-pots.

[sam sarrha]

6. that is why Rove has been supplying Gannon's services to foreign dignitary's

that visit the White House.????????????????????? probably the nature of his 200+ visits there many after regular hours.

[truthisfreedom]

7. rove manipulates EVERYONE in the dirty GOP.

[Dr Fate]

8. DEMS need to ask- "What did Rove know, and when did he know it?"

I hope they are not too frightened to ask that on TV-one can dream.

[KharmaTrain]

9. Why A Repugnican?

Yes...he's a master at "oppo research" and this would be a stunt I would expect him to pull on a Democrat rather than within his own fractured coven.

If he could find a "honey pot"...like a Clinton or Gary Condit...or had some info on a Democrat caught in some sexual antics, ya don't think he's have it out there at this stage in the campaign? Even more so now to create the plausible denial or the "they did it, too" distraction that could cool this scandal down. Right now the news cycle is out of Rove's control. Asshat gives a scathing speech yesterday that all but calls Harry Reid a traitor and I still haven't seen any major network coverage. The offensive to frame Democrats as weak on "security"...which has been Rove's game plan is unraveling as this scandal sucks the oxygen of the news cycle.

Methinks this is more of Repugnican hypocrisy coming back to bite them in the ass. Rove knew Foley was gay...so did all the rest. Just as they knew Jim Kolbe was and I'm sure we can add a certain RNC chairman and California congressman to the list. As long as they brought in the money and votes, the "establishment" look the other way. It was the GOOP's answer to "don't ask, don't tell". What they didn't know wouldn't hurt them...if anything, better outta sight, outta mind.

When the emails came to light, the GOOP leadership thought it could shush this scandal down...but by then Foley had become both a big money raiser and public face of the party. Busting his ass would have started tongues wagging. Remember, this is a Congress that DeLay built and all but shut the ethnics committee down when Joel Hefley was sacked. My bets are Hastert et al thought these emails would get buried and even if exposed, Foley could tap dance his way out of this. Had it just been those original emails, I firmly believe Foley would still be in the House. Foley was a time bomb waiting to explode...methinks the leadership knew the perils but thought Foley was "smart enough" to get himself out of any mess. They gambled and lost...Rove has been shoved off stage by a scandal he'd love to see a (D) attached to right now.

[Leopolds Ghost]

14. A honey pot is a mole... a stool pigeon... a tar baby

Used to identify other people by offering sexual favors or inviting those people to parties where they might be identified as gay, who might then be subject to blackmail.

Rove has been blackmailing Dems, Repubs AND media types for years. They've said so. But with what? Nobody's been willing to say, for fear of doing Rove's work for him (spreading rumors about people Rove has the dirt on, is the only way to prove Rove is blackmailing them).

The GOP had Foley by the short hairs, dead to rights as a page-chaser years ago. What was the nature of the deal they offered him? What do prosecutors do with special witnesses? They use them to roll other people.

That is what a "honey pot" is -- someone who is used to entice the opponent with sexual favors in order to liquidate the opponent. Contra MADem, I've read that our spy agencies are quite proficient at using gay honey-pots, usually high-ranking officials, men about town who have cut a deal with intelligence services to avoid being outed themselves.

[KharmaTrain]

16. I Don't See Any Democrats Trapped Here

Methinks you're giving Rove way too much credit for this mess. I see this more as a Faustian deal gone bad. Foley wasn't there to attract dirt on gays...he was there to bring in money and votes.

I can give you 2.8 million reasons why he was left alone a year ago and a 100,000 dollar donation to Reynolds right after the emails surfaced to demonstrate that if there was any blackmail or quid pro quo here it came from Foley to the party to look the other way to him being gay and for his other antics.

Yes, there's some intereresting books about how the CIA and the KGB waged war with gays...using blackmail as a major weapon, but if this was supposed to be blackmail, where is it here? Maybe I'm so overloaded with this thing that I can't see it.

Again...I see Rove not able to control this situation and, if anything, may be concerned about other bombshells within his own coven that could explode.

Cheers...

[Leopolds Ghost]

19. No, none of you get it. ROVE DID NOT WANT FOLEY EXPOSED.

He was the perfect informant.

Why do you think Dems are SO SILENT on this issue???

They KNOW Foley was being used to collect damaging info on Dems AND
Repubs to keep them in line. ROVE has that info, not Foley. Foley
was the BAIT.

Foley agreed to stay in office and continue to serve
as bait and as damage insurance against Republican OR Dem insurrection BY HIS VERY EXISTENCE, because Foley didn't want to be outed.

One of his (probably gay) Republican pages got sick of the blackmail
scheme and brought it down.

SEVERAL AAR Hosts have EXPLICITLY SAID Pelosi does not want to come out swinging on the issue for fear of the information that "may come out" about Dems.

They know Foley gave Rove such information. That's why Rove made sure Foley stayed in office!!!

Dems will be SILENT on this and other issues because certain of their colleagues have been successfully blackmailed by Rove. Even the MSM has discussed the degree to which Rove has dug up damaging information about these people. Foley is just another tool for Rove to use as BAIT.

[KharmaTrain]

22. Second On A Match

I'm following, but still don't see how this is a Rovian game.

What damaging info could Foley have on a Democrat that would be worse than what has been exposed about Foley? Maybe Rove does have some blackmail on Democrats but it doesn't get much worse than what Foley is.

Unless there's a gay in a "purple" district, I don't see how Rove outting a Democrat could have any effect and that's a precious few districts.

Now if Foley was a plant, I'd suggest you look at the former Repugnican leader, Tom DeLay...who has not been brought into this story, but is not far below the surface. I would submit DeLay knew more than Rove and, if anything, was territorial on what he knew. This guy operated like a gangster and part of his modus operandi could easily have been to blackmail Foley or use him as a honey pot, as you suggest. Rove would only get the bits DeLay would feed to him. However, we're not hearing a thing about "The Hammer"...he was the one who put Foley in a leadership role.

The Dems are smart to play silent here...especially as this story still keeps changing. Each day this story stays in the headlines, the more the Repugnicans point fingers at one another, the greater this scandal takes votes from Repugnicans or supresses the vote.

When you're opponent is beating themselves up, save the energy for when they come up for air...THEN hit 'em. Pelosi is holding her powder until next week when the 10 days since her call for an investigation passes..then she's got a lot more leverage to bash with...and drag this story even closer to election day.

[Leopolds Ghost]

24. I agree. I also submit that Dem leaders are more afraid than actual gays

Of potential fallout if the whole scheme is exposed.

I submit that the pages themselves (plenty of whom are over the years reputed to be gay, since Foley had a reputation as a male heartthrob on Capitol Hill) got sick of the whole blackmail endeavor, aiding and abetting Foley's exploitation of teens and turning his office into a...

Casting Couch for Easy-To-Work-With, Closeted Gay Republicans.

Cause that's what was going on here and it makes a good bumper sticker to boot. Foley was operating a casting couch for conflicted, closeted, blackmailable staffers (Republican and Democrat) and I suspect many of those staffers got together and decided to punish the Republican partyu for it.

You are absolutely right that DeLay's absence is telling. I bet you're right that he may have been the one behind any day-to-day blackmail in Capitol Hill.

And now that he's gone, the whole scheme falls apart with people posting the long-rumored "list" (the Republican half of it) on blogs. Interesting, eh?

Karl Rove needs dirty people in Congress for his brand of leadership to work. I hope Dems wake up and realize that as long as they try to keep the Dem half of "the list" under wraps, they are doing Rove's work. Time for all the secrets to come out and the skeleton-closeted swept out.

[aquart]

25. What raging paranoid crap.

[Leopolds Ghost]

28. Foley's behavior was known to the blogosphere two years ago.

Washington Monthly, David Brock, etc. speculated WHY DeLay was keeping him around.

Those in a position to prove Foley's doings -- Congressional staffers who USED to be pages -- would not talk -- FOR FEAR OF DELAY.

Why is that?

Again, referencing only what was known two years ago.

[femrap]

29. So...in a couple of weeks from now,

Rove will leak to the MSM that a certain Dem has had sexual relations with who knows what....right? This will be the October Surprise...?

Then everyone will stay home and not vote...cuz they're sick of the whole sewer in DC. But who will be the target? Which Dem has done the nasty?

Damn, if one gets elected to national office he/she should wear a chastity belt.

[Leopolds Ghost]

34. Francois Miterrand said that extramarital sex was one of the primary perks

of being a national leader and that if you banned it, there would be no politicians left.

[Pachamama]

38. Keep in mind the following: I'm sure that the NSA wiretapping program

that is done in the name of "keeping us safe from terrorism" is most definitely being used by this administration to gain political information and advantage. They are surely spying on EVERYONE, Dems and Republicans alike, so you know that the Bush Administration has known what Foley was doing and with whom. My guess is that they then use this information to control and manipulate EVERYONE, including in their own party. My guess is that the last thing they wanted was the news about Foley being public. It served them far better to have it silent.

It makes me almost think for a moment that Mark Foley is "relieved" to be outed in all ways...seriously...who knows what else he had to do because of his lifestyle....And meanwhile, this whole event has exposed the greed and power that the GOP covets and that they don't care at all about our country, our kids, morals etc.

So, getting back to your hypothesis LeopoldsGhost - yes, I believe that Foley was somehow another tool for Rove....and Rove is pissed to have "lost" that tool. I don't believe that Rove and his machine could have set up a complex web of Honey pots like Foley and planned it out that way, I just think what they do is find out who is a closeted gay, who is a cross dresser, who likes little boys, or is banging someone other than their spouse, etc. Then they let those people know they know and they can make them vote the way they want and do their bidding. My guess is that the GOP is more blackmailed within than anyone on the outside is. Sure, they are also using the goods on Dems too, but this Foley Affair is a GOP mess and its the last thing Rove/Bush Co. wanted revealed.

[Leopolds Ghost]

40. I bet you're right. n/t

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

11. You have to explain better (more specifically) what you mean. Do

you mean Rove planted these hot teens to tempt Foley's old gay self so he could blackmail him for either money or party line votes? Because if so, the way this has turned out is spectacularly bad for the Republican Party. That would only make sense if the idea was for it alwasy to stay secret but remain leverage over the Congressman.

Or what else could you mean? :shrug:

[Leopolds Ghost]

15. See my post above. Foley is the honey-pot, not the pages.

A honey-pot is an informant used to entice ones' target with sexual favors. Female honey-pot intelligence agents are generally pretty people with high-paying cover jobs (business, media, etc.) who may be used to assassinate or more commonly blackmail married, foreign dignitaries.

Gay honey-pots are often used. They may be easy to recruit for fear of being outed themselves.

What makes you guys think Rove wanted Foley revealed? If he was the honey-pot, part of the deal would have been that he keeps his power in return for posessing (and indeed personifying) damaging information on who else is sleeping with pages, etc. How naive can people be? These guys are evil. This is basic-level skullduggery for anyone in the Bush Administration with any familiarity with how covert operations work. Rove is all about applying covert ops skills to the world of politics.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

18. A specific example would help, Do you think Christine Keeler (of Profumo

Profumo Affair repute) was a honey-pot?

Judith Campbell-Exner?

Both had simultaneous affairs with politicians and with less savory men, in the KGB or the Mafia.

[Leopolds Ghost]

21. Specific examples are not relevant, they EXIST. Political Blogs have known

About Foley and his network of pages (the ones that were consenting to his favors) for YEARS. Andrew Sullivan's discussed it. Hell, I think Washington Monthly's discussed it! And in 2004 they asked why, under the circumstances, with Dems AND Repubs knowing ALL ABOUT the rumors, Rove was so eager to convince Foley to run for another term?

The answer is that Rove was not afraid of someone besides himself blackmailing Foley because he, Rove, had the dirt on the entire gay community in Washington, and other, less savory peccadillos such as
screwing interns, and that Rove was using tried and true blackmail techniques to gather this information, such as relying on compromised individuals such as Foley and some of the consenting individuals who passed through his office, who were already at risk of exposure, for information. Again THIS HAS BEEN TALKED ABOUT IN WASHINGTON before, but not loudly for fear that "the list" (as David Corn put it) might get out. "The List" is Rove's Ring of Power. It is what he uses to keep Dems and Republicans in line.

[Leopolds Ghost]

53. Progressive, I didn't mean to sound curt by the way

I am not an expert on cloak and dagger techniques, or spy history, but I see the parallels in Rove's behavior and I have read about how much he admires using covert tactics to gain political power.

The alleged planting of the TANG forgeries could be an example of this, as many people mentioned how Rove had grown up in a family with connections in that covert, "government within a government" mentality.

Certainly the Texas legislature, which was rife with criminality, was a fertile grounds for his activities.

Living in the DC area, I have known people who have friends, family, neighbors that work for the national security industry and they have many of the same assumptions about what's going on.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

20. Right, but this is a big backfire on Rove if that were the case. Doesn't

help him or Repubs for a big web of collusion to be revealed.

Also, I agree that Foley seems an unlikely choice to be a "honeypot" as the guy doesn't strike me as very attractive. I don't see him seducing too many aside from helpless pages under his thumb.

I could see how having any gay Congressman on your payroll would be useful. Just moving in gay D.C. social circles you would know who is who, and could give intelligence that could be used for blackmail.

I don't know anything about D.C.'s gay political circles, but I would guess there must be some "mutual assured destruction" involved in causing others to be blackmailed or outed... if it could be determined that you were the cause, you'd get outed yourself by your victim I'd think...

Honestly, as much as the Republican Party has behaved like the world's biggest assholes towards gay America in the last several years, I don't understand why every last gay Republican hasn't been outed years ago.

[Leopolds Ghost]

23. It does hurt Rove. No formal collusion is necessary. Foleys very existence

Served to compromise the House Republican leadership by his very presence. And any closeted gays he slept with (and either Sullivan or Washington Monthly was talking a couple years ago about how he was rumored to be VERY popular among young, closeted gay Republican hill staffers -- hell, someone recently posted a Washingtonian article by a female staffer portraying him as a sex symbol in an article entitled "how to date a Congressman" in 1995) had all tbe dirt on their Dem counterparts. David Brock discussed this at length when he "came out against" the Republican Party. He said that there was "list". You don't think people so hypocritical and conflicted would not willingly acquiesce to such a scheme with Rove gathering the resultant information? Like I said, Foley existed as bait, a compromised individual who it suited Rove's purposes to remain in Washington, holding hands with politicians and their staffers on both sides of the aisle. Hoover did the same thing, recording pillow-talk between MLK and his extramarital affairs.

[SmokingJacket]

26. Yes -- this is all about blackmail.

That's the only reason I can think of for the Repubs to keep around a highly dangerous person like Foley. They *knew* but they didn't say anything, even though he was just one congressman and probably easily replaceable.

Why do the Republicans vote en masse? No, they're not zombies -- they're terrified of being singled out for punishment. And Rove has the goods on every damn one of them.

[Tuesday_Morning]

27. I see...

Foley's a honeypot that's more "spy" than "sexbomb".

And how perfect to keep him at those committee assignments then. It would be - for some - disarming.
And it would explain why even tho they knew all about Foley, they didn't move him off of those committees. All the better to hear things. If keeping Foley on was purely politcal, they would have changed his committee assignments, would they? Put him on something less controversial.

[Jcrowley]

32. Stay on it

Getting folks to think about the deeper politics behind the front that we see as politics is valuable. Hopefully some will challenge their assumptions. I salute your effort.

:toast:

[calimary]

43. Agreed. MOST enlightening and intriguing.

And ENTIRELY plausible.

My husband and I were talking last night about how Foley came by such huge amounts of money that he could then turn around and give to the congressional campaign machine. My husband thinks it may come out a little later that Foley was running some sort of gay porn or kiddie porn thing that raked in some pretty big bucks. I don't know. But at this point, I wouldn't rule ANYTHING out.

Your insights are MOST interesting, LG. :toast:

[Singular73]

35. Lets take off our tinfoil hats. You first.

[Canuckistanian]

36. But I question the timing if this was a Rovian deal

I mean, less than two months before a crucial election?

I could see this if it were happening in a non-election year.

But knowing that Foley, Hastert, Reynolds maybe even Boehner will suffer the loss of their seats has got to be a huge sacrifice. I'm not seeing the big political payoff here.

No, I don't think Rove orchestrated this, unless thay can turn it around on the Dems somehow.

[Leopolds Ghost]

41. Rove did Not Want Foley Outed. Foley was his dirty little secret

He and DeLay kept Foley in Congress to keep the other Congressmen honest. Because, you know, they don't want to wake up one day with a picture of their bare ass in the tabloids, taken by a member of the "velvet mafia" that Foley secured jobs in congress for. Capeche?

This was the gossip mentioned by David Brock and Washington Monthly two years ago. Questioning why DeLay insisted on Foley remaining when others were pressuring him to step down in '04. Questioning Brock's allegations that a "velvet mafia" composed of closeted evangelicals was being run out of DeLay's office.

A number of Foley's buddies who were pages, are now prominent congressional staffers working for DeLay's "gang". The "velvet mafia" mentioned by David Brock, a gay ex-republican strategist.

For those not aware, the definition of a honey-pot is a tool, a source, an agent, not a scandal. He was there to catch flies, not create trouble or get caught.

I first heard the term in reference to Gannon, and read up on it. In the movie "Munich" an agent is employed as a "honey-pot". I suspect most real-life "honey-pots" are there to blackmail politicians, not assassinate secret agents. Blackmailing chatterbox politicians is one of the means of preserving operational security.

Rove and DeLay figured nobody in DC would feel comfortable outing him because his prominent position on child protection issues and general hypocrisy created mixed messages. He was not a stereotypical gay man and he wasn't someone gays would want to take credit for. Folks said so on blogs years ago.

[Catherine Vincent]

42. um, how do you know so much about this?

[Leopolds Ghost]

47. It's been in DC gossip columns (Washingon Monthly, blogs) since 2004.

David Brock (famous ex-Republican strategist) wrote a book about how gay Republicans in Capitol Hill were being kept in check by DeLay with his "Velvet Mafia". Everyone knew everyone else.

Nobody wanted them -- or their allies in Congress' fellow gay chief of staff -- to be outed. Remember, staffers wield considerable control over Congressmen's policy decisions. Controlling "liberal Republican Hill Staffers" was one of the chief objectives of the 1994 Republican Revolution and Newt relied on DeLay to do it. Many of these "moderate Repub staffers" just happened to be gay.

That made these gay staffers trustworthy liutenants from DeLay's perspective, IF blackmail could be used. DeLay has a mafioso mentality, as can be seen with his ties to Abramoff and his Marianas sex-ring / sweatshop racket, a classic criminal enterprise.

According to rumors on the blogs (Washington Monthly did a short piece on it) dating back to 2004, Foley was part of the scheme because of patronage -- and this was only implied -- blackmail.

Basically, Brock and other gay current and former Republican staffers asserted that Foley was using his office as a casting couch for pages to become Congressional staffers, a patronage scam for closeted evangelicals, and that "someone" (Rove, or DeLay) knew EXACTLY who had relied on Foley in order to get the job they hold today (and Brock, or the Monthly, explicitly said that according to gay Republican sources, there was a "list" of powerful Republican staffers who had gotten their job thanks to Foley in the past 10 years, and it was long.)

I read all this a couple years ago. Now David Corn of the Nation claims to have a copy of "the list" in his posession. The implication is that DeLay's office had "the list" of people who had slept with Foley on order to get a job on Capitol Hill. You can bet Rove's had it for years.

I am frankly surprised it took so long to bring down Foley. This was an issue on the Internet in 2004 when DeLay convinced Foley to run for re-election despite the page allegations which were common knowledge in the gay Capitol Hill community, according to local blogs.

[Catherine Vincent]

50. Wow!

With all that you've read, who do you think may be on the list?

Bookmarking, btw.

[Leopolds Ghost]

55. No idea.

I'm not gay but I live in the DC area which has a huge gay community, and people talk about this stuff in the local gossip columns.

The Capitol Hill Current, Washington Post and City Paper have discussed how Capitol Hill (the neighborhood, where many Hill staffers live) is a gay mecca, relatively speaking.

Gay folks can no longer afford to live in Dupont Circle, its mostly lawyers' offices now.

[KoKo]

51. Article from Washington Monthly says there's a Dem who could be outed:

Foley Also Got Votes as "No Altar Boy" in Washingtonian Survey

http://www.washingtonian.com/features/foley.html


A review of the ballots sent in by several hundred administrative assistants, press secretaries, legislative directors, and chiefs of committee staffs suggests that someone or at least two people had an inkling that Foley wasn't sending e-mails only to colleagues or constituents. Besides getting one vote from a Republican staffer for being a "Show Horse" and another GOP nod as a "Hunk," Foley was singled out by two Democratic staffers as their pick for "No Altar Boy."

He had lots of company in that category. Staffers submitted about 30 different names. At the top of the list: Rhode Island Representative Patrick Kennedy, who entered rehab last spring after crashing his Ford Mustang into a barricade at 3 in the morning under the influence of something.

The survey suggests Foley may not be the only House member with an eye for the fresher faces on Capitol Hill. One Democratic House member received votes for "No Altar Boy" from a handful of staffers on both sides of the aisle, one of whom scribbled "loves interns" after the member's name. Another October surprise?

[Canuckistanian]

57. Weird.

But one question. IF Foley was Rove's little secret and IF it was a Republican who tipped off Brian Ross, then could this be a shot across Rove's bow?

In other words, is there a GOP rebellion brewing?

[Leopolds Ghost]

58. I think maybe Hill staffers are tired of being bullied and blackmailed

by Rove with threats of being outed as homosexual or having an affair or whatever,

While stooges such as Foley are allowed to remain in office despite flaunting the worst possible behavior.

It is suggestive that Foley was useful to Rove and DeLay somehow, isn't it?

[Leopolds Ghost]

59. Bump n/t

[Leopolds Ghost]

61. Patronage/Blackmail scheme alluded to on Scarborough -- "Velvet Mafia"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2323080

O'DONNELL: But Joe, this is very, very important piece of the story. This is going to be part of where we track the information about how it flowed. And it' going to be a very important question on the staff level, not necessarily on the elected level. But people are going—Republican base is going to be shocked

SCARBOROUGH: And I...

O‘DONNELL: ...when they discover within a week where the closetted gay men are positioned in this story who have not yet been revealed.

SCARBOROUGH: And Ana, you were talking about--earlier with me--we were talking about the fact that the Republican Party has some issues on the gay issue.

ANA MARIE COX, WASHINGTON EDITOR, TIME.COM: They do. (The Republicans) have a kind of split personality about it. On the one hand, they have a base who is largely, not to be put too fine point on it, pretty homophobic, and they really count on that. They got out the vote by campaigning against gay marriage in the past few years.

And on the other hand, they have a somewhat more sophisticated, somewhat more worldly, let's say, elected leadership who not only know gay people but know gay Republicans and work with gay Republicans. And Lawrence is right. At the staff level, the House has quite a few gay people. And those are the people—are the "Velvet Mafia" of the House, of the Hill, and those are the people that are counted on to keep the other closeted members of Congress and staff members in line, and that is how they tried to deal with Foley this time around.

SCARBOROUGH: Lawrence O'Donnell, I think the Republican Party is doomed. I think even if they throw Denny Hastert overboard, that does absolutely nothing to save him. What do you say?

O'DONNELL: I agree with you, Joe. This is one of those things where there‘s no good political choice to make. The story is completely out of control.

I just want to stress, today it moved to the staff level. It's going to stay now at the staff level for the next news cycle. This is now a very, very important staff credibility issue. The battle between Kirk Fordham and Scott Palmer, who, as reported in the initial report tonight on your show--Scott Palmer, chief of staff for Denny Hastert, who is denying, very specifically denying that he was ever told that there was a problem with Foley by Fordham. Now, that is a crucial--those two guys are going to become the stars of this story over the next couple of days, and it's going to make the story something different.