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Hezbollah: We are going to win, because they love life and we love death.

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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 12:45 AM
Original message
Hezbollah: We are going to win, because they love life and we love death.
Edited on Thu Jul-27-06 12:49 AM by Clarkie1
I heard someone say this on CNN today. It shocked me, but I wasn't watching the T.V. closely...just overheard, so I didn't know who said...but I had my suspicions. Well, a quick google search "the jews love life we love death hezbollah" revealed the sickening, heartbreaking answer:

Hezbollah's Secretary General Hassan Nasrallah revealed in an interview after the recent prisoner swap between Israel and his group: "We have discovered how to hit the Jews where they are the most vulnerable. The Jews love life, so that is what we shall take away from them. We are going to win, because they love life and we love death."

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/stalinsky20040524...

What can we learn from this? I would prefer this thread not turn into a rehash of issues and opinions which have already been laid out. I know this whole issue is very divisive on DU. What I most want from posting this, is if there is anyone who did not understand this fundamental difference between Hezbollah and Israel, I would ask you to consider it now.

Golda Meir was right:

"Peace will come when the Arabs love their children more than they hate us."

Peace, my friends, is in the hands of those who hate Israel and the Jews. You cannont make peace with an enemy that wants only war.

So...I don't want to end sounding hopeless. What we must do is try and change their hearts and minds. When this latest round of shooting stops, I propose MASSIVE international aid to Lebanon and the Lebanese army as a show of Western goodwill. Hopefully, the Lebanese army itself will finish disarming any remenants of the militia that remains. It will take an international commitment and a lot of goodwill to change hearts and minds, but right now Israel has no choice but to fight.


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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
1. Nasrallah does not speak for all Arabs, Lebanese, or even most of them
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AnOhioan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Thank you for stating the obvious
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Certainly not.
But he speaks for the ones attacking the sovereign state of Israel. In ohter words, he speaks for the ones causing the bloodshed.

Like I said, after Israel finishes doing what needs to be done, we need to really give Lebanon and the Lebanese people the support they need through massive international aid so there will be no poverty in Lebanon that Hezbollah terrorists can take advantage of. We need to help the Lebanese government provide the essential services that the terrorists were providing, and help them make sure the milita does not reappear and rearm itself
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #5
15. The Lebanese president credits Hezbullah for freeing
them from Israeli occupation. The news reports showed example after example of Lebanese stating positives about Hezbullah, followed by their president's positive remarks.

One cannot continue to call themselves intelligent while ignoring facts and reality. It's called being a sandwich short of a picnic.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Has everyone read Sabra's Journal entry
Peace is the secret.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #16
28. If only Hezbollah knew the secret. nt
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #28
104. Indeed, they DO know the "secret."
If the Arabs were to simply accept their "inferiority" all would be well.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #15
26. I honestly don't understand the point you are trying to make. nt
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deaniac21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #15
92. He also enjoys being alive.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #5
45. self delete
Edited on Thu Jul-27-06 01:51 AM by me b zola
eek.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #45
50. I want peace.
I want to be very clear on that. I have thoughts (also expressed by Clark) on how a more lasting peace between Israel and Lebanon can be achieved after this latest version of the perennial conflict is over by supporting Lebanon and the Lebanese people, and working with our allies for an international mandate.

I do not think peace is possible by Israel simply stopping their military operation to disarm Hezbollah at this point in time. We may have a difference of opinion on that, and that's o.k. That's why we have discussion boards.
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w13rd0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #5
51. ???
"no poverty in Lebanon that Hezbollah terrorists can take advantage of"

so, if the poor in the US start bombing shit, can we get some aid too? I mean, as long as we're handing it out and all...
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
119. You mean when Israel finishes
destroying the entire civilian and economic infrastructure of Lebanon, and kills off hundreds more civilians and creates hundreds of thousands more desperate refugees, including children who've watched their families murdered in front of them? You mean when they finish bombing and s hooting at busses, vans and ambulances carrying fleeing and wounded civilians who are doing what Israel warned them to do in the first place? THAT "finishing off?" It simply blows my mind that you still think that such actions will actually make the Lebanese go running to Israel.

Dude, that's it, you are on IGNORE!
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 04:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
62. But he's right on the money vis a vis the culture of martyrdom in
Shi'a Islam. What he says is fact for shi'as.

From an account of a shia pilgrimage to Karbala:

Yet even this happy atmosphere harbored ominous undercurrents. A coffin was carried around the Hussein shrinea traditional Shiite ritebut this one contained the body of a man killed the night before in a firefight with American soldiers in Sadr City, the vast Shiite slum in northeast Baghdad. I began noticing how many young men in the crowd were wearing white burial shrouds over their shoulders, a symbol of their willingness to die as martyrs, an attitude much favored by supporters of Muqtada al-Sadr, the 30- year-old extremist whose men had ambushed and killed two American soldiers in that firefight.......Toward the end of the decade, Shiites found a leader in the person of Muhammad Sadiq al-Sadr, a teacher from Najaf and a distant relative of the resistance leader executed in 1980. Initially encouraged by the regime because of his denunciations of the United States, Sadr II, as he is often called, set up a network of followers across southern Iraq and in Baghdad. Late in 1998, though, he began wearing the white martyrs shroud while denouncing Saddams regime to growing and enthusiastic crowds. In February 1999, while driving home in Najaf, Sadr, along with two of his sons, was duly machine-gunned to death by state security agents.

Today, portraits of Sadr II, who is invariably depicted as a humble ancient with a snow-white beard, adorn walls and billboards around Iraq. These frequently share space with bearded, turbaned portraits of other Shiite leaders, many of them deadtestimony to the high mortality rate in Shiite religious politics. A few hundred yards from the site of the al-Sadr murder, for example, is a green-domed tomb, still under construction, that contains what few remains could be collected of the late Ayatollah Muhammad Baqir al- Hakim, founder and leader of a political party called the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq. He was the victim of a massive car bomb that exploded as he was leaving Najaf s Imam Ali shrine on August 29 this year.

http://www.smithsonianmagazine.com/issues/2003/december...

http://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/Concept-Ezzati.htm

The event of Karbala', the martyrdom of the Imam Husayn on 'Ashura', and the whole struggle he undertook, plays a very crucial role in the history of Shi'ism. Yet this unique historical event is seen by the Shi'a as a model event to inspire the Muslims. This is explained in the well known narration frequently quoted 'Every day is 'Ashura', and every place is Karbala'. This is partly why it has kept its dynamic, resilient, and revolutionary spirit, and features throughout history, and this is how Shi'ism truly reflects this spirit.

From the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/holydays/...

Ashura has been a day of fasting for Sunni Muslims since the days of the early Muslim community. It marks two historical events: the day Nuh (Noah) left the Ark, and the day that Musa (Moses) was saved from the Egyptians by Allah.

Shi'a Muslims in particular use the day to commemorate the martyrdom of Hussein, a grandson of the Prophet (pbuh) in 680 CE.
In Shi'ite communities this is a solemn day: plays re-enacting the martyrdom are often staged and many take part in mourning rituals......


Read all about ASHURA, here: http://www.ashura.com / It is CENTRAL to Shi'a Islam.

It's a rather bloody holiday. They beat themselves with chains till they bleed, and cut their heads. It's all to do with commemorating one of the most significant martyrdoms of their faith.



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gulfcoastliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
122. Certainly speaks for Hezbollah.
Probably also speaks for the Palestinians, too.



Palestinian baby dressed as a body bomber. That's their culture.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 04:40 AM
Response to Reply #122
127. Not so much from a religious standpoint in the case of Palestinians
They're sunni, much more mellow. Politics and war have created that culture, not relgion, at least not as much.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
3. The Lebanese were thrilled they survived civil war
and were no longer occupied. The Lebanese president credited Hezbullah for finally freeing Southern Lebanon from Israel occupation.

The Lebanese were rebuilding and Beirut was again a beautiful city. Their economy was good, peace was theirs.

Until a few weeks ago.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #3
94. The five Shi'ite cabinet members
almost brought down Siniora's government last winter by walking out.

He dared to call Hezbollah a 'militia' that needed to be 'disarmed'. The political crisis passed when Siniora redubbed Hezbollah as the 'resistance' (instead of 'militia') and that Lebanon was proud of them (instead of 'needed to disarm them').

When a gun's pointed at your head with the explicit threat of civil war against a foe that you've watched arm himself, while you disarmed ... do you expect people to take your words at face value?

Otherwise, I agree with your post.

Instead of a civil war, they're being pummeled by Israel. And Nasrallah's crowing about how they managed to draw the Israelis onto Lebanese soil, since it's Hezbollah's task to drive them off. If you have nothing to resist, but your entire life is tied to fighting the invader and driving out the oppressor ... you produce an invader so that you can be oppressed and feel vindicated when you drive him out. If not now, then later. A rather strange kind of learned psychosis; too bad that's what's been intentionally taught.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 12:54 AM
Response to Original message
4. There is always a choice. Israel made theirs. I hope they get what they
want out of it, but if the past is any indication, they won't.
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norml Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
6. Bull!
Israel can get the fuck out of Lebanon, that's what they can do.

And I believe I've heard variations of that "they love life and we love death" line before, in more than a few old war movies and westerns.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Yeah, John Wayne retreads
John Wayne never served in the military.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. You are accusing the Hezbollah leader of watching too much
John Wayne???
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. I'm not sure you read the OP carefully.
Israel is not saying Hezbollah loves death; Hezbollah is saying that.
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norml Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #9
43. Yeah, I got that. I think the Klingons were also down with that sentiment.
Edited on Thu Jul-27-06 01:42 AM by norml




As were the Spartans.

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ContraBass Black Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #43
89. "CHEGH-chew jaj-VAM jaj-KAK"
"Today is a good day to die."
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #6
100. They did that in 2000. Hezbollah still attacked them. n/t
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 04:44 AM
Response to Reply #6
128. Why are you yelling at Israel? Nasrallah was the one who said that
He said his crowd of terrorists love death, and that's why they are gonna win.

I suppose Nasrallah's crew has no fault in all this, is that what you are averring?

That cross-border raid where they killed those eight reservists and snatched two, that should have been ignored?

The over a thousand rockets they've launched at northern Israel should be disregarded?
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AlamoDemoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
7. Clarkie1, your exceptional. you never let Israel down
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. He is exceptional!
Edited on Thu Jul-27-06 01:24 AM by Behind the Aegis
Thanks for pointing it out! :applause:

On edit: Wrong pronoun...not that there is anything wrong with being called a woman. :) Apologies Clarkie1.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. He. nt
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AlamoDemoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #11
22. Thank pointing out that he is a she...I had no idea
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. .
:eyes:
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AlamoDemoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #24
37. Are you single...if you don't mind me asking?
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #37
109. .
:rofl:
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. I wouldn't say exceptional.
Relatively exceptional here on DU, perhaps.

I don't start from the point of "never letting Israel down." I look at the situation, and I state my opinion. I know my opinions are shared by some here on DU, but still somewhat exceptional...although not exceptional in the Democratic Party as a whole.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. I hope Sabra's Journal is read by all
It's very impressive. Peace is the goal.
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raysr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
10. That's why the US
and other people that fear death can't fight those that don't. RE: Viet-Cong, Iraqi "insurgents" and soon. A guy told me one time there's nothing you can do to a guy who doesn't give a fuck.
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springhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #10
19. So you think Americans are the only ones that fear death?
Edited on Thu Jul-27-06 01:36 AM by springhill
Is that what you are saying? Please explain.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
18. They lie! If they really loved death then the leaders would lead the
first waves of their 'death armies'! As usual, they will hide behind the poor sap who agreed to give his life. :(

Hey Hezbollah leaders, death smiles on us all. Stop acting like fools.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. You have a point.
Of course, they also love death inflicted on innocent men, women, and children even more because that means they can keep killing.

There is nothing I can think of more sickening.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Fools.
Fools always rush into war. If only Clark were president, I bet he could broker an agreement and would.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. If Clark were president he would have been doing more before this point.
Such as helping the Lebanese government, through U.S. leadership and working with allies, to provide essential services and the capability to disarm rogue militias such as Hezbollah.

He would have also been talking to Syria and Iran (suppliers of Hezbollah) and using the leverage we had there.

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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. Yes, how different the world would be if Clark was POTUS.
I can guaran-dam-tee ya this conflict between Lebanon and Israel would NOT be going on!

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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. I think it would be a different world if any Democrat were POTUS.
The neo-con agenda and philosophy has done great harm to the world.

I do think Clark has a greater understanding of current affairs and more experience working with international leaders than any other potential nominee...but let's keep focusing on 06' right now. :-)
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springhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #20
46. Five myths that sanction Israel's war crimes......
Edited on Thu Jul-27-06 01:47 AM by springhill
from an article at common dreams from Jonathan Cook, a writer based in Nazareth, Israel:

This week I had the pleasure to appear on American radio, on the Laura Ingraham show, pitted against David Horowitz, a "Semite supremacist who most recently made his name under the banner of Campus Watch, leading McCarthyite witch-hunts against American professors who have the impertinence to suggest that maybe, just maybe, Arabs have minds and feelings like the rest of us.

It was a revealing experience, at least for a British journalist rarely exposed to the depths of ignorance and prejudice in the United States on Middle East matters -- well, apart from the regular wackos who fill my email inbox. But five minutes of listening to Horowitz speak, and the sympathy with which his arguments were greeted by Laura (The Professors -- your books a great read, David), left me a lot more frightened about the worlds future.

<snip>

The third myth is that, while Israel is trying to fight a clean war by targeting only terrorists, Hezbollah prefers to bring death and destruction on innocents by firing rockets at Israeli civilians.

<snip>

In the latest emerging news from Lebanon, human rights groups are accusing Israel of violating international law and using cluster grenades, which kill indiscriminately. There are reports too, so far unconfirmed, that Israel has been firing illegal incendiary bombs.

Conversely, the breakdown of the smaller number of deaths of Israelis at the hands of Hezbollah -- 42 at the time of writing -- show that more soldiers have been killed than civilians.

In fact, although no one is making the point, Hezbollahs rockets have been targeted overwhelming at strategic locations: the northern economic hub of Haifa, its satellite towns and the array of military sites across the Galilee.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0725-35.htm
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #46
98. You are illustrating one of the most common falacies
mistaking intent for results. Hezbollah is clearly at best firing rockets willy nilly with no care of who is hurt, at worst they are targetting Israeli civilians. The fact that they have killed fewer people is due to their lack of ability not their lack of intent. Israel has much more ability to bomb Lebanon but have been using more precision weapons. If Israel wanted to kill all Lebanese civilians more of them would be dead.
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springhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #98
102. Excuse me, but did you even read the article...............
Conversely, the breakdown of the smaller number of deaths of Israelis at the hands of Hezbollah -- 42 at the time of writing -- show that more soldiers have been killed than civilians.

In fact, although no one is making the point, Hezbollahs rockets have been targeted overwhelming at strategic locations: the northern economic hub of Haifa, its satellite towns and the array of military sites across the Galilee.


Did you even read the above information, or are you trying to ingore it?
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springhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #98
106. Another thought............
Are you really trying to tell me that Hezbollah is just targeting civilians but it just accidentally happened to kill more soldiers? Now that is a stretch.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
25. The Lebanese president credits Hezbullah for freedom
of occupation from Israel. 23% of the government was duly and democratically elected Hezbullah.

You can ignore the facts all you want but you can't change them.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. What is your point?
Why cannot the Hezbollah militia be disarmed?
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. The Lebanese president credits Hezbullah for freedom from
Israeli occupation. 23% of the duly elected democratic Lebanese government were Hezbullah. That is my point.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #32
44. O.K....
Edited on Thu Jul-27-06 01:43 AM by Clarkie1
I've known that fact for a long time. Is this fact supposed to change my mind about the necessity of disarming the Hezbollah militia?

Hezbollah is a cancer on the body politic of Lebanon.
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Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #44
53. I think using that particular metaphor shows a mentality too
prone to the Bush-style "us or them." This approach rules out effective diplomacy in my opinion. And leads to Guernicas of the sort Israel has been perpetrating in this war.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #53
125. You can only have diplomacy with sovereign states.
Not with rogue terrorist militias.

If Hezbollah wants to be a political party in Lebanon, fine. But they cannot be a rogue terrorist militia and they must be disarmed. Since the leaders of Hezbollah by their own admission love death more than life, disarming them will be challenging
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #32
88. Once Lebanon
was a free, democratic nation, Hizbollah should've turned over their arms & joined the government, as every other militia did.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 05:48 AM
Response to Reply #25
68. you keep saying this over and over
and it's not that I don't believe you, but it would be helpful if you provided some links to statements to that effect, particularly statements made befor the current conflict. Thanks.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 04:48 AM
Response to Reply #25
129. No, he doesn't.
A poster above put it succinctly.

In essence, when Tony Soprano is breaking your fingers, you'll say anything he wants.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
30. Hate is a powerful thing.
When it is the only thing that fuels you, then you are bound to fail.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. Which is why Hezbollah is so wrong about who will ultimately win.
Edited on Thu Jul-27-06 01:41 AM by Clarkie1
That's a hopeful thought...

The peacemakers will win. Those who love life more than death. Call me hopelessly naive, but I still believe it.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. Have you read Sabra's Journal?
The peacemakers aren't always those with the biggest guns.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #36
40. Yes I have. nt
Edited on Thu Jul-27-06 01:40 AM by Clarkie1
"I see certain posts in DU, that bother me, but on the flip side I also understand them. I believe that through communication, knowledge is born. I just wish our current world leaders would follow that philosophy."

Beautifully stated.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #33
39. Peace is rarely achieved easily or without sacrifice.
I think that is why so many of us treasure it when we have it.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. That was what Lebanon was feeling until a few weeks ago n/t
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #41
47. So was Northern Israel. n/t
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #39
42. Peace at any cost.
That is what life has been reduced to. Sad.
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Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #39
54. A better quote is "There never was a good war not a bad peace.
-Benjamin Franklin. I prefer that to the old vile ones which essentially boil down to: Kill, Kill, Kill for peace! That didn't work in Viet Nam. It didn't work in Northern ireland. Or South Africa, a country that had apartheid policies like the ones Israel has now with those absurd walls etc.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #54
96. Assuming a peaceful peace, I agree.
But frequently 'peace' means 'no mutual combat or declaration of war'.

The Phony War was peace.

The rocket attacks on S. and N. Israel were peace.

The buildup of arms in Germany and in Lebanon was peace. And almost certainly they were intended to lead to not just non-peace, but war.

Franklin didn't let his imagination foresee the 20th and 21th century innovations we'd make to "peace".
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. I detested Olmert saying "Lebanon will have to learn the hard way"
for that very reason. Thanks for the post.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. Rices 'growth pains' did it for me.
Dismissing death like it was a child growing up and learning from trial and error. Sick sick sick.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. Do you have the full context of that quote? I'd appreciate it. nt
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #30
72. Are you seriously suggesting
that the only thing that fuels Israel's opponents is hatred?

Not, say, the desire for a viable Palestinian state? Or the desire to stop the Israeli invasion of Lebanon?
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #72
78. And the only thing we're so detested for is our "freedoms".
There are two sides, though; US & Israel...and everyone else.

:eyes:
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #72
83. That Would Depend On Which Opponent You, Mean
The radical fundamentalist bodies are certainly fueled by hatred, which, wakened by whatever event, finds root in religiousity, and by transforming that event into symbol within an eternal struggle between good and evil, renders it a transcendant thing that can never be satisfied by any material alteration of the circumstances.
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Fozzledick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #83
103. Yeah, what he said
Plus, they had no interest in a separate Palestinian state from 1947 thru 1967 when they could have had it any time, but their intent to destroy Israel was no less.

And claiming the desire to stop the invasion of Lebanon was the reason for the cross-border attack intended to provoke it is just ludicrous.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #83
111. But "only"?
I don't for one minute dispute that many of the arabs hate the Israelis (and I think the reverse is clearly true to), but the post I was replying to claimed talked about people being motivated "only" by hate, and I think that that's not true of *any* of the groups opposing Israel.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #111
112. It Seems To Me True Of Some Groups, Sir
And not of others, nor of the population of Arab Palestine, and surrounding countries, as a whole. But in the religiously oriented militant bodies, any material grievance has long been superseded by the dynamic of good versus evil, and that in the absolute terms only a monotheistic creed with pretentions to absolute truth by revelation can possess.
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QuestionAll... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #83
116. a bit off topic here, but nonetheless...
you said: ""The radical fundamentalist bodies are certainly fueled by hatred.""

vs.

Can also be said: ""The radical war corporatist bodies are certainly fueled by profits (and have a direct interest in fueling radical fundamentalist bodies.)""

==

gotta spend them missiles, don't we boys?
peace, schmeace.

expecting it from these war pigs, expecting reasonable humaness from them is off the playing field. Don't let yourself be dissapointed over and over again. Expect the very worst and anything less may be a pleasant surprise. We are That far down the road to hell.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #72
115. Not the only thing for Hamas...
...but for Hizb'allah...YUP!
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #115
118. I see.
You don't think any of the leaders of Hezbollah are interested in the welfare of the people of Lebanon, or of Palestine?

You don't think any of them are motivated by self-interest - greed, or fear, or lust for power?

You don't think any of them are driven by religious conviction - the desire to promote Islam, say, or to stand up for other Moslems?

You think that the only thing that motivates them is hatred for Israel?

Come off it.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #118
120. You don't see...
You don't think any of the leaders of Hezbollah are interested in the welfare of the people of Lebanon, or of Palestine?

No. They do not have the interest in the welfare of the Lebanese people, and certainly NOT the Palestinian people!

You don't think any of them are motivated by self-interest - greed, or fear, or lust for power?

Lust for power? MAYBE, the other two, highly unlikely to be motivators.

You don't think any of them are driven by religious conviction - the desire to promote Islam, say, or to stand up for other Moslems?

Nope!

You think that the only thing that motivates them is hatred for Israel?

Nope...hate for JEWS. Israel is just a convenient target.

Come off it.

You come off it. Stop pretending that they are some kind of "Boy Scouts" group interested in civic duty and helping old ladies across the street! They are murderous thugs interested in the death of Jews and the destruction of Israel because of their hate!
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #120
142. I think you're wrong.
Edited on Fri Jul-28-06 09:08 AM by Donald Ian Rankin
If you can point at any statements where I compare Hezbollah to boy scouts, implicitly or explicitly, I will happily retract them and apologise. If you can't, I suggest that you do so.

I fully agree with you when you say "They are murderous thugs interested in the death of Jews and the destruction of Israel because of their hate!", but I think to claim that that is their *only* motivation is something only the blindest Israeli partisans could believe.

Are you seriously suggesting that the well-documented social developement programs Hezbollah has run in Lebanon were instituted *solely* to bring about the destruction of Israel?

It's very comforting to believe that your enemies aren't real people. It's also silly. Yes, they are murderous thugs, but they have other motivations too, and their hatred of Israel isn't "a motiveless malignancy"; if anything it's other motivations that lead to that rather than the other way round.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #142
143. Think what you like.
"If you can point at any statements where I compare Hezbollah to boy scouts, implicitly or explicitly, I will happily retract them and apologise. If you can't, I suggest that you do so."

I am not looking for apologies. The BSA comment is called a metaphor, which also explains why I placed the name in quotes.

"I fully agree with you when you say "They are murderous thugs interested in the death of Jews and the destruction of Israel because of their hate!", but I think to claim that that is their *only* motivation is something only the blindest Israeli partisans could believe. "

I guess you didn't see that I revised my position by entertaining the notion that "lust for power" could, indeed, play a part.

"Are you seriously suggesting that the well-documented social developement programs Hezbollah has run in Lebanon were instituted *solely* to bring about the destruction of Israel?"

I said nothing about their "...well-documented social developement programs..." I shall now: they are recruitment ploys. It wouldn't be any different if the Klan ran a soup kitchen, or the Aryan Alliance started a day care center. The motivation is not social good, but increasing the ranks.

"It's very comforting to believe that your enemies aren't real people. It's also silly. Yes, they are murderous thugs, but they have other motivations too, and their hatred of Israel isn't "a motiveless malignancy"; if anything it's other motivations that lead to that rather than the other way round."

I know they are real people. I also know they are real threats. This idea that we should all hold hands and sing "Kumbaya" is getting old though (another metaphor). As for the rest of your sentence, which came first, the chicken or the egg?

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Kiouni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:53 AM
Response to Original message
48. It seems to me that there was a buid
up to this millitary action. What else was Isreal expected to do? I agree with you plan Clarkie but America sadly tends to not support setting up infrastructure in these countries.
Your solution is pretty much the same as Howard Zinn's How can they hate us and want to harm us if all we do is good? They won't, America needs to give aid and not dictate were it is allocated specifically.
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SammyBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:53 AM
Response to Original message
49. I have been saying this for years and if bothers me that I have
Edited on Thu Jul-27-06 01:57 AM by SammyBlue
to agree with the National Review over my fellow liberals.

Please try to quote something other than William Buckley's turd filled wet dream.

However, let's look at the statement: "The Jews love life." They didn't say Israelis. Watching interviews of Palestinians in the so called Occupied Territories without western translation with people who can speak farsi and arabic point out that when the Palestinians talk about Israelis, they say Jew. The western translators put in the word "Israeli" as an editoral bent.

If this is true, it reinforces my belief that Hamas and Hezbollah don't want peace or coexistance.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 04:32 AM
Response to Reply #49
60. to quote Israel's leading historian on the Israel/Arab conflict
Benny Morris --- "the fear of territorial displacement and dispossession was to be the chief motor Arab antagonism to Zionism" -- not anti-Semitism or hatred of Jews...but the fear of territorial displacement and dispossession.

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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 05:01 AM
Response to Reply #49
65. There is no Israel, there is only Palestine, you see
They want to push the Jews into the sea.

Shi'a Islam IS a culture of martyrdom...I put some links upthread that explain the details of one of their more significant holidays. People who say that what Nasrallah said isn't true don't know what they are talking about. For the observant, it is very, very true. They do focus on their martyrs, make no mistake about it.

And anyone who has seen Fiddler on the Roof can't help but hum along to L' Chaim!!! So Nasrallah got it right...
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #65
71. There was no Hezbollah before 1982 and it was Shiite then as well
Edited on Thu Jul-27-06 07:53 AM by Douglas Carpenter
like any religious movement -- there is a wide range of of extremist fundamentlist to the more liberal live and let live variety. I know lots and lots of Shiites and they are just not the kind of fanatics that are commonly dispected; not at all.

Regarding the founding of Hezbollah:

To quote Uri Avnery of the Israeli organization Gush Shalom - link:

http://www.nimn.org/articles/whats_new/000539.php

"in 1982, when the Shiites in the south of Lebanon, until then as docile as a doormat, stood up against the Israeli occupiers and created the Hizbullah, which has become the strongest force in the country."

More than 17,000 Lebanese civilians died during the 1982 Israeli invasion and occupation of Lebanon. Again to quote Mr Avnery, "ON THE eve of the 1982 invasion, Secretary of State Alexander Haig told Ariel Sharon that, before starting it, it was necessary to have a "clear provocation", which would be accepted by the world.

The provocation indeed took placeexactly at the appropriate timewhen Abu-Nidal's terror gang tried to assassinate the Israeli ambassador in London. This had no connection with Lebanon, and even less with the PLO (the enemy of Abu-Nidal), but it served its purpose"

The Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon was a period of incredible brutality and cruelty - That is the reason why there is a Hezbollah and why it has power -- link:

http://www.hri.ca/fortherecord1998/vol3/lebanonchr.htm

I wonder what new group will be created by this slaughter.

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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #71
114. And they were a persecuted minority back then, too
They didn't start to get any real clout until the Shah was overthrown which was in 79--I remember it well, I was present for the occasion.

The guy making these statements is the leader of the movement in Lebanon, not some piker from out in the middle of nowhere. He is right, he knows his peeps.

And your source is a bit interpretive, to put it nicely--the shi'as in Lebanon did not "create" Hizb'Allah, the Iranians did, everything from the training to the outfitting to the agenda--the "docile" Lebanese shia just gleefully went along with the program. And the Iranian agenda was not simply the occupation of Lebanon, they could give really two shits about Lebanon, save for a couple of things: a ready supply of cannon fodder, a strategic position from which to assault Israel, crush it, and retrieve Jerusalem for themselves, and a few very good ports. Other than that, it's strategic ground; all the more handy for exerting THEIR influence over the entire region--and make no mistake, that IS their plan. Iran's goal is to be "THE" Middle East powerhouse. And they will whip their shia believers into shape to get behind that agenda to accomplish that goal.

Your second link is considerably more accurate, but it is ancient history, and doesn't address what is happening in Lebanon today. Subsequent to that report, the Israelis LEFT. TOTALLY.

The Hizb'Allah can hardly say the Israelis were "aggressing" against them--they weren't even THERE. The aggression took place against Israel, with the cross-border incursions, and murder of soldiers...and this latest "capture" (they're dead, I will bet, on ice somewhere, just like the last three) as well. Israel had cleared out and was hoping, under 1559, that the Lebanese Army would take over on the border. Instead, these Iranian proxies moved in, the UNIFIL observers continued to snooze and smoke on the slope, and not bother to report anything, and here we are, today.

The "liberal shia" I know are virtually nonobservant. They drink, they smoke, they gamble. They live abroad, too.

The ones who are into it are *into* it, and there's no dealing with them.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 03:00 AM
Response to Original message
52. i don't care for that Golda Meir quote
most Arabs love their kids. most Arabs including most of the victims of the wars in the middle east never wanted to destroy Israel or Jewish lives.

it's true that Hezbollah and Hamas and other terrorists are at fault, but they certainly don't speak for most Arabs or Muslims. one problem i have with some on DU and elsewhere who criticize Israel is that they defend groups like Hezbollah and do the same thing as Golda Meir did in that quote by lumping all Arabs together as being represented by these groups.

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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 03:51 AM
Response to Reply #52
55. There is an offer for peace between Arab countries and Israel:
This specific offer was unanimously affirmed by the Arab League and immediately endorsed by the Palestinian leadership in March 2002. However, more or less the same plan has been offered by the Arab League and enthusiastically endorsed by the Palestinian leadership going back much, much longer:

link:

http://www.mideastweb.org/saudipeace.htm

"The Arab Peace Initiative
(translation by Reuters).

The Council of Arab States at the Summit Level at its 14th Ordinary Session, reaffirming the resolution taken in June 1996 at the Cairo Extra-Ordinary Arab Summit that a just and comprehensive peace in the Middle East is the strategic option of the Arab countries, to be achieved in accordance with international legality, and which would require a comparable commitment on the part of the Israeli government.

Having listened to the statement made by his royal highness Prince Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz, crown prince of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, in which his highness presented his initiative calling for full Israeli withdrawal from all the Arab territories occupied since June 1967, in implementation of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, reaffirmed by the Madrid Conference of 1991 and the land-for-peace principle, and Israel's acceptance of an independent Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital, in return for the establishment of normal relations in the context of a comprehensive peace with Israel.

Emanating from the conviction of the Arab countries that a military solution to the conflict will not achieve peace or provide security for the parties, the council:

1. Requests Israel to reconsider its policies and declare that a just peace is its strategic option as well.

2. Further calls upon Israel to affirm:

I- Full Israeli withdrawal from all the territories occupied since 1967, including the Syrian Golan Heights, to the June 4, 1967 lines as well as the remaining occupied Lebanese territories in the south of Lebanon.

II- Achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with UN General Assembly Resolution 194.

III- The acceptance of the establishment of a sovereign independent Palestinian state on the Palestinian territories occupied since June 4, 1967 in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, with East Jerusalem as its capital.

3. Consequently, the Arab countries affirm the following:

I- Consider the Arab-Israeli conflict ended, and enter into a peace agreement with Israel, and provide security for all the states of the region

II- Establish normal relations with Israel in the context of this comprehensive peace.

4. Assures the rejection of all forms of Palestinian patriation which conflict with the special circumstances of the Arab host countries

5. Calls upon the government of Israel and all Israelis to accept this initiative in order to safeguard the prospects for peace and stop the further shedding of blood, enabling the Arab countries and Israel to live in peace and good neighborliness and provide future generations with security, stability and prosperity

6. Invites the international community and all countries and organizations to support this initiative.

7. Requests the chairman of the summit to form a special committee composed of some of its concerned member states and the secretary general of the League of Arab States to pursue the necessary contacts to gain support for this initiative at all levels, particularly from the United Nations, the Security Council, the United States of America, the Russian Federation, the Muslim states and the European Union."
___________

And this is the offer Israel made at Camp David in 2000:

link:

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113

"The annexations and security arrangements would divide the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the regions scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert--about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex--including a former toxic waste dump.

Because of the geographic placement of Israels proposed West Bank annexations, Palestinians living in their new independent state would be forced to cross Israeli territory every time they traveled or shipped goods from one section of the West Bank to another, and Israel could close those routes at will. Israel would also retain a network of so-called bypass roads that would crisscross the Palestinian state while remaining sovereign Israeli territory, further dividing the West Bank.

Israel was also to have kept "security control" for an indefinite period of time over the Jordan Valley, the strip of territory that forms the border between the West Bank and neighboring Jordan. Palestine would not have free access to its own international borders with Jordan and Egypt--putting Palestinian trade, and therefore its economy, at the mercy of the Israeli military.

Had Arafat agreed to these arrangements, the Palestinians would have permanently locked in place many of the worst aspects of the very occupation they were trying to bring to an end. For at Camp David, Israel also demanded that Arafat sign an "end-of-conflict" agreement stating that the decades-old war between Israel and the Palestinians was over and waiving all further claims against Israel"

snip:"In April 2002, the countries of the Arab League--from moderate Jordan to hardline Iraq--unanimously agreed on a Saudi peace plan centering around full peace, recognition and normalization of relations with Israel in exchange for a complete Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 borders as well as a "just resolution" to the refugee issue. Palestinian negotiator Nabil Sha'ath declared himself "delighted" with the plan. "The proposal constitutes the best terms of reference for our political struggle," he told the Jordan Times (3/28/02)."

read full article:

The Myth of the Generous Offer
Distorting the Camp David negotiations

By Seth Ackerman

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 04:17 AM
Response to Reply #55
58. Things aren't always as they seem.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 04:38 AM
Response to Reply #58
61. that's true...but in spite of everything when I look at what I am certain
most Arabs would minimally accept and compare it to what I believe most ordinary Israelis would minimally accept -- I do believe that it is close enough to negotiate an end to the conflict. Unfortunately, blood letting creates more and more bad blood all the time.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #61
84. That Is Quite True, Mr. Carpenter
It is perhaps the most tragic single element of the continuing hostilities over the matter, that absent certain radical elements among both peoples the thing could be settled tomorrow to the satisfaction of easily two thirds of the people directly involved.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 04:11 AM
Response to Original message
56. Nasrallah is an ass, this is old time anti semitism. What a fool. n/t
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 04:13 AM
Response to Original message
57. When do we start changing the hearts and minds of Israelis?
Edited on Thu Jul-27-06 04:17 AM by bowens43
When do they give back what they have stolen? When do they stop the slaughter of Innocent people?

MAybe it's time to disarm Israel.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 04:17 AM
Response to Reply #57
59. What have they stolen?
Why would you disarm a nation?
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 04:58 AM
Response to Reply #59
63. may I respectfully ask if you have read any scholarly work from
the non-Zionist Israeli writers or Palestinian writers or even Zionist critics of Israeli policy?

I have tried to understand the Zionist perspective and to an extent I think I do. But I just don't agree.

Actually even a committed Zionist like Benny Morris do pretty much acknowledge that things were not as nice and peace loving and far minded as are commonly believed according to the popular Israeli narrative.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 05:00 AM
Response to Reply #63
64. I have read many things.
Things are just not always as they seem, just as you point out. The push of Arabs out of "Palestine" was just as dubious as many other things.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 05:29 AM
Response to Reply #64
66. from what I have seen among serious Israeli scholars there is little
debate anymore about the dispossession. There is disagreement about whether it was premeditated or an accident of war. There are some who would say that it was a "necessary evil". But I don't think that there is much dispute anymore at least at the scholarly level about the basic facts.

If you have not already read Benny Morris - Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in Be'er Sheva (who I would mention is a fervent and committed Zionist - who writes from the perpective of apologeas for Israel) it might be worthwhile to read his book:
Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-2001
Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679744754/sr=1-1/qid=...


"There is no justification for acts of rape <...> or acts of massacre. Those are war crimes. But in certain conditions, expulsion is not a war crime. I don't think that the expulsions of 1948 were war crimes. You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs.

That was the situation. That is what Zionism faced. A Jewish state would not have come into being without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians. Therefore it was necessary to uproot them. There was no choice but to expel that population. It was necessary to cleanse the hinterland and cleanse the border areas and cleanse the main roads. It was necessary to cleanse the villages from which our convoys and our settlements were fired on." link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Morris

If you are interesting in non-Zionist writer (some would say pro-Palestinian) Ilan Pappe of Haifa University is probably one of the best. His book: A History of Modern Palestine: One Land, Two Peoples
Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0521683157/sr=1-3/qid=...

Anyway I will keep reading Zionist, non-Zionest and Palestinian writers just to make sure there is something I havn't missed in the debate.

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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #66
93. and some would say he makes things up
Regarding your statement:

"If you are interesting in non-Zionist writer (some would say pro-Palestinian) Ilan Pappe of Haifa University is probably one of the best."

Actually, everyone would say he is pro-Palestinian.

Some would say he distorts the truth:

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=8&x_nameinnew...

Just like some would say that the source I cited is Zionist propaganda.

I agree that it is important to read widely about this conflict.

Which books would you recommend on the pro-Zionist side?


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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #93
97. I would say Benny Morris as I also listed plus Shlomo Ben-Ami's
Edited on Thu Jul-27-06 10:42 AM by Douglas Carpenter
Scars of War, Wounds of Peace: The Israeli-Arab Tragedy


Amazon link:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0195181581/sr=1-1/qid=...

Benny Morris is quoted as a source ranging from Alan Dershowitz to Norman Finklestein. There is general agreement that he is a good historian. The disagreement is over his narrative..
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #97
99. Benny Morris
I will not argue the point of whether or not Benny Morris is a good historian, but certainly, I think it's fair to say that he is view is not considered pro-Zionist.

It seems that the range of authors you listed are all from the "New Historians" camp.

Certainly one is free to use these sources for information of the conflict, but I would not constitute them as presenting the full range of opinions on the matter.

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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #99
101. it is correct to call him a "New Historian"
but I don't think there is any doubt about his committment to Zionism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Morris
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #101
105. Respectfully disagree
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=8&x_nameinnew...

And I still don't think you are citing a wide range of perspectives on the issue.

Again, that is your perogative of course.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #105
107. may I respectfully ask, would you read or site Palestinian writers?
I would think right off hand that they might have some insight on these issues.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #107
108. absolutely
I think everyone interested in the conflict should and must read books by both Palestinians and Israelis. And also within those two communities they should read widely from the spectrum of opinion that exists across each.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #99
110. Mr. Morris, Sir
While quite candid and unflinching in his discussion of the events of the '48 war, ends on the assertion that the stern arguments of necessity that have impelled peoples throughout the ages required what was done by Israeli forces then, which is hardly an "anti-Zionist" position. Indeed, some of my old friends from across the aisle in this debate maintain the opinion that Mr. Morris, is, at bottom, merely a bigoted apologist for ethnic cleansing.

There is, to my view, no point to sugar-coating the reality of what occured during the '48 war, as regards the Arab population of the late Palestine Mandate, just as no good can come, either, from concious exaggerations and demonizations.

People left, in the first instance, from their homes in the area alloted to the Jewish Zone, and did so in compliance with instructions from Arab Nationalist political leadership, as a demonstration Arabs would never endure Jewish rule. These movements mostly took place even before the English departed, in the early stages of the conflict before the formal ending of the Mandate.

People left, in the second instance, in the normal way of people seeking safety when battle and war comes to their doorstep, and often did so despite Arab Nationalist instruction to remain and fight as militia. These movements mostly took place in the early stages of the war, particularly in the fighting over the approaches to Jerusalem. Certainly excesses by Irgun units accellerated this, but the units were quashed by government action, and their actions were not official policy.

People left, in the third instance, because they were ordered to, and the orders were enforced, if defied, by violence. These movements took place in the closing stages of the war, when its eventual outcome was clear, and were official policy of the nascent Israeli government.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #110
117. I have no argument with that description
I believe that the authors cited do not represent a particularly wide range of views on the subject of Zionism.

Benny Morris, like the other gentlemen listed, are all "New Historians" who share a particular perspective and approach to, for instance, the founding of the state of Israel that is not representative of the full range of opinions held on this topic by historians who have studied and written about the subject.

There are numerous authors whose views are decidedly progressive who do not view the situation through the prism of those "New Historians".

I think if one is seeking to understand a variety of views about Israel and Palestine then one would be well-served by reading authors who do not subscribe to that historiographical approach as well as those who do.





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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #59
74. What have they stolen?
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #74
76. and this from the wonderful, wonderful people of B'tselem

The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories - link:

http://www.btselem.org/english/Maps/Index.asp

Map of the Separation Barrier in the West Bank

On February 20 2005, the Israeli government approved an updated route for the Separation Barrier. According to the map published by the Ministry of Defense, sections of the revised route will run close to or along the Green Line, thus reducing the harm caused to the daily life of Palestinians living in proximity to the route.

Despite these improvements, the new route does not eliminate the fingers which reach deep into the West Bank to surround the Ariel and Qedumim settlements. In addition, a new section of the Barrier has been added around Ma'ale Adumim and the settlements near it. In these locations, the government approved the route in principle. More detailed plans will be developed and will require approval by the Prime Minister and the Minister of Defense. Given the central location of these settlements, constructing the barrier around them will have widespread ramifications on the freedom of movement for the Palestinian population in the West Bank.
__________

Map of The Separation Barrier and Ceckpoints in the Jerusalem area

The government's plan calls for the separation barrier to surround East Jerusalem and detach it from the rest of the West Bank. The decision to run the barrier along the municipal border, and the weak arguments given to explain that decision, lead to the conclusion that the primary consideration was political: the unwillingness of the government to pay the political price for choosing a route that will contradict the myth, that "unified Jerusalem is the eternal capital of Israel."
________________

Map of Forbidden Roads in the West Bank

The map displays three kinds of roads in the West Bank: roads on which Palestinian travel is restricted, although no special permit is required, roads on which Palestinians are forbidden to travel unless they have a special permit, and roads on which only Israeli citizens are allowed to travel.

The forbidden roads regime is based on the principle of separation based on discrimination, and assumes that every Palestinian constitutes a security threat. This assumption is racist and cannot justify a policy that indiscriminately harms the entire Palestinian population. Therefore, the policy violates human rights and international law.
_________
Map of the Gaza Strip

For the past four and a half years, Israel has severely restricted freedom of movement to and from the Gaza Strip. These restrictions further strangled the Gaza Strip, so much so that the area resembles one gigantic prison. Israels policies have reduced many human rights among them the right to freedom of movement, family life, health, education, and work to humanitarian gestures that Israel sparingly provides.
__________

Map of the Southern Hebron Hills

The map shows the Arab villages and the Jewish settlements in the southern West Bank. The area marked in red is home to about 1,000 Palestinians, who live in caves and maintain a traditional lifestyle. In the 1970s this are was declared by the Israeli military commander a "closed military area," and for the past five years, Israel has been trying to expel the inhabitants.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 05:41 AM
Response to Original message
67. While Nasrallah is being much more poetic about this.
He is in reality simply stating a military fact, that nine times out of ten, in a matchup between a guerilla force and a regular army, unless the regular army is prepared to lay waste to an entire population and country, the guerilla force will win. This truism has been born out in the past, in such guerilla conflicts as the American Revolution, the Vietnam War, the War in Iraq, and now this conflict in Lebenon.

Geopolitical locations don't mean a damn to guerilla forces, neither do most normal conventions of war. As long as they are supplied, mobile and have the spirit, the guerilla force will win almost every time.

This is why the current conflicts in the ME are foolish. Both the US and Israel are going to lose, badly.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #67
91. What You Say Is True, Sir
But it points to a serious problem with the prolonged practice of such a war, not often reckoned with. It is quite possible for any conventional military power to in fact lay waste to the area of operations: this has simply gone out of fashion in the present day, but was often employed in the past, and works quite well. What has generally restrained such action in the modern day is that most guerrilla conflicts have involved places that were distant from, and peripheral to the interests of, the major power afflicted by the guerrilla campaign, so that there was no sustained will, born of a perceived necessity to win, animating its people, and so no sufficient political constituency for the measures required. This does not apply in the situation of Israel: the theaters of conflict are directly on its borders, and the homeland and its people are directly threatened. They have no place to go, and no other particular compelling interest but their security and survival. Push people in such a situation hard enough and long enough, and they will do what is required to prevail, if the doing is within their power. A method of war which, in the final analysis, depends on the self-restraint of the foe, contains within it the seeds of its defeat. Pressed long enough in a manner that threatens truely vital interests, it will rouse the will to use the means that will overthrow it, regardless of any artificial constraints, and much of the onus for the horrid consequences must rest with those who took up the method and pushed it too long and too hard.

"No law that conflicts with the ability of a force in the field to survive is ever likely to be much obeyed."
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 06:20 AM
Response to Original message
69. Nice source. Hideous right wing screed.
Israeli leaders routinely boast that they will kill 10 of the enemy for every dead Israeli. The culture of death appears to have infected both sides in this conflict.

"Bring it on".
"Dead or alive."
"We got him."
Dead Zarqawi 24/7.

Oh wait, isn't that our own president, our own media wallowing in death?

Look in the mirror clarkie1.
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 06:34 AM
Response to Original message
70. "Give me liberty or give me death"...
is an age-old human emotion. Israel itself was founded by terrorists/freedom fighters.

If Communist China invaded your town the sensible thing to do would be to lay down your weapons, capitulate and get on with the new way of life. But would you?
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 07:05 AM
Response to Original message
73. aah, that obnoxious, bigotted Golda Meir quote again...

and linking to NATIONAL REVIEW? If I have to tell you what is wrong with THAT then you truly ARE clueless.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #73
75. racist bigotry sold as a message of peace
Edited on Thu Jul-27-06 07:16 AM by Douglas Carpenter
but I guess promoting anti-Arab racism is okay
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #73
80. Substantive. n/t
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #73
81. Most Americans are clueless, unfortunately
I remember the first time I met a Jew whose family fled an Arab nation after '48. He tried to impress upon me how different the cultures were and how unprepared I was for the confrontation. It took a while, but here you see what we stand against - and after 9/11, Americans should realize that the threat is directed against us as well. We ignore it at our peril.

But as someone who was raised devout, I also understand the fundamentalist position - what matters is the afterlife, since that's eternal. You don't convince anyone who believes that that it's wrong ... they have to reach that conclusion themselves.
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #81
86. .
Edited on Thu Jul-27-06 09:28 AM by burythehatchet
.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 08:16 AM
Response to Original message
77. If they love death, they wouldn't care whether Israel was there or not
They could just all go jump off a cliff.

If they love death, why are they still here?

It's bravado. He's just claiming, figuratively, to be braver than the Israelis, and of course, somebody on the Israelis side can be dug up to make the same claim. Warriors always claim they have "greater courage" than their enemies.

This is a clumsy and stupid way of putting that, from a side that has no chance of winning the war.
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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
79. Sounds more like "Pro-Life" Republicans to me
Those that love war, and tobacco, and death penalty, and corporations over the earth, and guns and guns and guns and guns. Those "Pro-Life" Republicans....
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
82. What an unbelieveable crock of shit.
HeartsAndMindsHeartsAndMindsHeartsAndMindsHeartsAndMindsHeartsAndMinds
HeartsAndMindsHeartsAndMindsHeartsAndMindsHeartsAndMindsHeartsAndMinds
HeartsAndMindsHeartsAndMindsHeartsAndMindsHeartsAndMindsHeartsAndMinds

I suggest you look up the history of the War in Vietnam. If we heard that bullshit once, we heard it 10,000 times a week.

I suggest that if Israel wants to get along with their neighbors (a suggestion that is more and more dubious with time) THAT THEY STOP:

-bombing the SHIT out of them,
-building settlements on their property,
-give back land they AGREED to give back,
-quit practicing economic sabotage on legally, democratically elected governments (the HAMAS led Palestinian Authority)just because they don't like them.

Those four would be one HELL of a FUCKING GOOD START, but as far as Israel is concerned, they believe "It's my way or the Highway."
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
85. You've convinced me
Arabs are truly dispicable people. Let's just nuke 'em and get this thing over with. I'm really impressed with the restraint that the Israeli forces are showing.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
87. Israel needs to look honestly at its colonialist history.
There will be no peace until Israel learns how to deal with the fact that Palestinians have a just cause to be angry.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
90. get a direct transcript instead of relying on right wing National Review
They aren't real strict on fact-checking stuff that fits their narrative.

Once Israel or us kills a whole group of these death-lovers, why do you suppose the group refills or a whole new nuttier one crops up?

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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
95. Do we have to read this propaganda every day?
Give it up. This isn't going to play here.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #95
113. As A Matter Of Curiousity, Sir
Have you ever read any jihadi literature?
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Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #113
124. Have you?
Just curious.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 04:53 AM
Response to Reply #113
130. Does the National Review count? n/t
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #95
121. So, only anti-Israeli propaganda is all we should see?
:eyes:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
123. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
126. The man is a psycho.
Is there any doubt why Israel, by law, requires its citizens to have safe rooms and bomb shelters. They know EXACTLY who and what they're dealing with....people who love death! There you have it. Could it be any clearer? PEACE will come when Hamas and Hezbollah choose PEACE.
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 04:58 AM
Response to Original message
131. Is Hezbollah a democratically elected political party in a country
that has elections?
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 05:12 AM
Response to Original message
132. National Review?! I can't believe how irresponsible this is.
I googled it, and the quote was -ahem- reported by RW columnist Jonathan Chait, then repeated and cited in the RW propaganda echo chamber. If anybody can cite a legitimate hard news source, I will stand corrected, but this thread is a clear violation of DU rules (on top of being a clear-cut case of propaganda).
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 05:23 AM
Response to Reply #132
133. Looks like the same quote was used to rebuff a truce offer from Bin Laden:
Straw dismisses Bin Laden 'truce'
BBC News; April 15, 2004

Foreign Secretary Jack Straw says an apparent offer of a truce for Europe from Osama Bin Laden should be treated with the "contempt" it deserves.

A tape said to be of Bin Laden has been broadcast on Arab TV offering Europe a truce if it "stops attacking Muslims".

"This is a murderous organisation which seeks impossible objectives by the most violent of means," Mr Straw told reporters in London. "It's yet another bare-faced attempt to divide the international community."

...

Stop spilling our blood so we can stop spilling your blood
Voice on tape alleged to be Osama Bin Laden

Mr Straw said: "One has to treat such claims, proposals, by al-Qaeda with the contempt which they deserve." He said the organisation has said in terms "that whilst we love life, they love death".

more:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3627943.stm
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #132
134. I agree this thread is a clear violation of DU rules... Where's the mods?
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #134
135. Joining in the discussion. n/t
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 05:34 AM
Response to Reply #135
136. I guess only Pat Buchanan is welcome here.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 05:41 AM
Response to Reply #136
137. If you can cite the quote from a credible source...
you should start a legitimate thread about it.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 05:42 AM
Response to Reply #137
138. so Buchanan is a credible source?
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #138
139. WTF? n/t
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #139
141. You haven't seen the "broken clock" posts?!
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Monkey see Monkey Do Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #136
144. Paul Craig Roberts too. nt
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #144
145. Damn! Thanks!
I can't beleive I forgot that antisemtic, eugencenics-supporting, racist tool!
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mogster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 05:53 AM
Response to Original message
140. Speak about lovin' death
What about the US fundies, now only living for the Rapture?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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