Has Israel ever said they want Muslim nations destroyed?

[Truthiness Inspector]

The answer is NO.

Contrast this with Hezbollah, Hamas, and Iranian President Ahmadinejad who state they want Israel wiped out. ***THIS*** is the difference in this matter. Why are people defending these factions and nuts, unless of course you can't tell the difference between them and innocents.

At least for me, I am able to differentiate between innocent Lebanese, Palestinians, Syrians and Iranians--and those who are members of groups that want nothing short of genocide of all Jews.

Why is this so hard to understand? You can support, say, Lebanese civilians while condemning Hezbollah and siding with Israel in getting rid of these genocidal terrorists. If anyone thinks Israel should sit down and talk with these groups, I ask, would you have given the same advice during the Holocaust?

Perspective, please. I'll probably get flamed, but I shouldn't if anyone actually reads what I said.

[blonndee]

1. Actions speak louder than words. n/t

[Skip Intro]

5. my thoughts exactly. n/t

[CuteNFuzzy]

106. Yup n/t

[cantstandbush]

34. They just work very hard to destroy them. nt

[Just Me]

53. They are vengeful with no respect for the rule of law.

When I say "they", I do NOT speak of "the people" but rather their leaders. As always, the people pay for the weaknesses of their leaders.

That's all I have to say.

[Rosemary2205]

147. Like Homicide bombers?

You think the Israeli's killed in all those attacks got jawboned to death?

[Junkdrawer]

2. Yep. Israel ACTS and the Arabs jawbone. n/t

[Minnesota Libra]

7. If "Arabs jawbone" and "Israel ACTS" then..........

....kindly explain where all those missiles are coming from that are landing inside Israel??? Does anyone think Israel is shooting those rockets at themselves?? :shrug:

[Junkdrawer]

19. Israelis killed: 10+, Lebanese killed: 200+ n/t

[K8-EEE]

24. Man They Are Getting LOTS of Children.

I'm sick of the dead babies wrapped in bloody sheets pix from Lebanon. It's ridiculous...go take out their father if you want but come on. Of course they would grow up seeking revenge, this is why this cycle goes on and on. I'm sick of supporting it.

I hate bombs, they are just too indiscriminate, destructive, it's collective punishment.

[Junkdrawer]

36. They're baiting Hezbollah into action to justify the destruction...

of Hezbollah - and the Lebanese government. Israel created a failed state in Lebanon before and they're doing it again. And that's what I meant by my first post: Israel destroys any state that it deems an enemy. But since it's main weapon is the instigation of civil war, it can't run around announcing its intentions.

[Minnesota Libra]

149. If "They're baiting Hezbollah...." where is the outrage about.............

.......Hezbollah being stupid enough to fall for the bait?? Oh yea, that's ok because it's Hezbollah, it's just wrong if Israel does it.:sarcasm:

[hopeisaplace]

76. Amen.

I'm completely with you on this thinking. My heart breaks for the
children, the destroyed families on all sides.

[Minnesota Libra]

107. That number evens out a bit when we consider all........

.....suicide bombers, timed bombs, and other destruction Palestinians, Arabs, Hamas, Hezballoh carried out inside of Israel day after day. I didn't see anyone at DU posting a complaint about any of that.

[Finder]

114. It really doesn't. n/t

[Imperialism Inc.]

116. No. Because Israel kidnaps and kills day after day

at a rate 4 times that of Israeli deaths.

[Xenotime]

159. true. That is the first thing that they do

[CanOfWhoopAss]

140. Israel doesn't sit idly by when that stuff occurs.

They always retaliate. It's a never ending cycle. One hits and the other hits back. Menachem Begin and other future Israelis were not above terrorist and guerrilla tactics when forcing the British out and pushing for the creation of Isreal. The Israelis seem to always come out with fewer casualties. Even the Israeli soldiers take pot shots at the Palestinian press, independent press and any other media when they feel like picking them off and intimidating them.

[cracksquirrel]

164. So?

Just because Israelis are good at war, and Hezbollah and Hamas are bad at war, doesn't mean that the side with crappy military capabilities is justified in provoking a conflict with a better military force. It's like punching the junkyard dog in the mouth to impress your friends. You'll look all cool and stuff for about three seconds before you receive a most vicious mauling.
Comparing body counts and saying that as a result Israel is in the wrong because it killed more people is absurd. Give Hamas and Hezbollah Apaches and F16s and guided missiles and hell, give them nuclear weapons too! Then compare civilian bodycounts. Otherwise it's almost as though the ONLY way for Israel to be in the right is if more Jews were being killed. I personally find that line of thinking... disturbing.

[martymar64]

167. You prefer all Arabs just lay down and die?

It's starting to become apparent that the Israel cheerleaders would just prefer to kill all Arabs and be done with it. A pox on all religions and "chosen people". May your nights be haunted by the screams of the children you murdered.

[cracksquirrel]

173. There's more than enough nightmares going around these days

I'm sorry that I've lost track of how many Arab babies I PERSONALLY murdered... see the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion for futher details. On a non-sarcastic note, you're missing this crucial point: Israel wants to get on with things, to just be a normal, small country that doesn't show up on the news too often. Hezbollah wants to kill every Jew between the Jordan and the Mediterranean. The Arabs don't need to "lie down and die." And the Israelis won't either. So maybe if Israel really is the big bad baby of the region, then maybe Arab "liberation" organizations should do the right thing and offer peaceful coexistence. Armed guerrilla warfare against Israeli civilians has only made things worse and worse for the Palestinians and the Lebanese, though it has been tried over and over again. Doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results every time is the very definition of insanity.

[itzamirakul]

195. Why is it that we never see any mention in these posts about the

Palestinian family that was killed at the beach?

It would seem to me that that was aggression.

I understand that Israel apologized for this accidental death of a family, but perhaps the Hezbollah felt as strongly about the family's death as Israel feels about the captured soldiers.

At least, as far as we know, the soldiers are still alive.
Wonder if they are being tortured in the same manner as the Israeli army Mossaud tortures Palestinians whom they label as "terrorists?"

[Junkdrawer]

179. Speaking of disturbing....

That was one of the most disturbing posts I've read in a while...

[everythingsxen]

3. IBTL

Seriously this is like the 10,000th post in the last few days about how Israel is so cool and good and awesome and Hizbollah are evil incarnate. Or vice-versa.

They are both at fault.

However, England bears most, if not all, the blame.

[K8-EEE]

28. Why England?

That's interesting...why do you think that?

[everythingsxen]

37. It was Britain who totally destabilized the entire Mid-East to begin with

with their re-drawing of the maps. Then they helped Israel be formed via Balfour but screwed Israel and Palestine on the deal both so they would have their own watchdog in the Mid-East, but because of the perpetual fighting state they helped create, Israel could never possibly challenge Britain. Nor could any other country in the Mid-East.

[K8-EEE]

45. Thank You

Very interesting....truly the 20th century powers that be couldn't have possible made that region any more of a powder keg, what with istalling whackjobs in these new "nations" etc..

My Iranian-American friend tells me she thinks that Iran/Persia whatever and Egypt are the only real countries in the Middle East, everything else is just "tribes with flags" created by foreigners.

[SoCalDem]

176. Unraveled empires are all UGLY..

SoCalDem Donating Member Sat Jul-15-06 03:56 PM
Original message


The Mess-o-Potamian Mess we have now.. Memory


These maps exist (from the 30's & 40's).. There are people alive today who still have pictures of where they lived as children.. They KNOW they were there.. Empirical outsiders moved their countries away from them..

They want it back..

That's all it is..in the purest sense





and

SoCalDem Donating Member Thu Jul-13-06 12:14 PM
Original message

The downfall of "Empire" is biting us all in the ass these days.

Look at all the places that "used to be" part of the British Empire,French-occupied countries, Dutch-occupied countries, etc... and places that resulted from the break-ups... There are not many successful/peaceful ones around. So many of them have just managed to keep a lid on troubles, and all it takes is a little provocation, and the pots boil over.. again and again..

Cultural memory is a hard thing to overcome, and even though a plot of land can be occupied (sometimes for centuries), the "before" time is never forgotten by the indigenous people, and at every opportunity, they will rise up in defiance..

It's human nature..

Look at our own country.. as hard as our leaders and thinkers try, slavery just will NOT "go away". The common mantra is "That happened 400 years ago..get over it".. All the creative writing cannot change facts.. A person alive today could have actually talked to a person born into slavery.. It's NOT that far back in our history.

How can we expect countries more recently occupied, and then "freed", to just forgive and forget? The boundary lines that created a lot of these countries were drawn by outsiders/former-occupiers...The people who did not move (the imaginary lines "moved" them), might have actually preferred to set their own boundaries. Is anyone really surprised that the "old wars" flare up constantly?

India/Pakistan/Kashmir....still simmering
former Ottoman Empire (every "country")...HIGH Heat
Afghanistan....Med-High
Africa....boil
Indonesia...med-high

Empire has long-lasting consequences. Just bestowing a grudging freedom, does not erase the injustices of the occupation. The downtrodden will still be downtrodden, only poorer and angrier once the occupiers leave. (Oddly, base-closures here in the US provide a small scale glimpse...towns gripe about the base and its soldiers, but scream like banshees when the base gets closed...)

[burythehatchet]

4. I'm glad you're asking for perspective

ASking for help is the first step.

[rug]

6. Well, there was an Arab land inside Israel's borders before 1948.

That's the root of the problem.

[villager]

10. well, no, the "roots" are much deeper and older than that

n/t

[leftchick]

8. like bushco never said he would bring anarchy to Iraq?

I believe his word was democracy. Their actions are what count not their words because all of their words are Lies. Israels and the US words.

[Truthiness Inspector]

9. Amazing

Abso-fuckin-lutely amazing these responses so far.

Denial at its finest. Fortunately Israel won't let history repeat.

[rug]

14. Repeat what?

[Truthiness Inspector]

22. Wow.

The genocide of Jews doesn't ring a bell?

I am stunned at the responses here. :puke:

[rug]

27. When you recover, tell me if you believe this is about genocide.

[Truthiness Inspector]

29. Are you baiting me or are you serious?

These groups have STATED they want Israel, the only Jewish nation, wiped off the map.
What part of that are you not understanding?

[rug]

32. I would never bait a master baiter.

[Truthiness Inspector]

41. A non-answer. n/t

[TankLV]

78. Me too, unfortunately.

Supporting a TERRORIST organization like Hezbollah.

Simply astounding.

[rug]

88. And how do you infer support?

[stranger81]

191. Israel is a terrorist state n/t

[daydreamer]

144. Germans commited Holocaust, not Arabs

[Bluerthanblue]

177. but it was the 'arabs' fault-

just like clintons penis-

The arabs are the scapegoats- the blood sacrifice for the nazi actions.

Take their land, then take their lives-
Never mind the fact that Jews and Arabs lived relatively peacefully together before 1948.

[Name removed]

168. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[K8-EEE]

21. TI, I Think You Are In Denial.

If you think it was wise of Israel to do this, or even in their best interests. I think they really have blown it big time.

[Truthiness Inspector]

26. Sure

Why should they defend their right to exist, surrounded for thousands of miles by those who despise them and/or wish them dead?

[K8-EEE]

35. I'm Really Not Trying To Flame Or Anything But

Do you think that they have done anything as a state, that would make them hated by all the neighbors? Do you think that just happened, with no cause at all?

It just seems to me that if this problem is ever to be solved we have to get past the "We're good/they're bad" thing on both sides, although here in the US we are bombarded by pro-Isreal influences, in that questioning something like the founding of Israel, you wouldn't even consider it, but it was a pretty raw deal for a lot of people, right?

[in_cog_ni_to]

59. Don't be stunned!

This is the new and improved DU! Many here HATE Israel, just in case you didn't notice. Hezbollah = GOOD. Israel = BAD. Got that? Anti-Israel is the new "Progressive" issue to back.

Just a reminder: Hamas' and Hezbollah's MISSION STATEMENT:

"We will never stop until the blood of every Jewish man, woman and child flows through the streets and into the sea."

Now, that's something to defend, eh? Also, neither of these terrorist groups will recognize Israel as a State, but that's OK because Israel has a military and is powerful. Why are they powerful? BECAUSE THEY HAD TO BE BECAUSE OF THE ABOVE MISSION STATEMENT.

[Truthiness Inspector]

81. BIG kick to your post

I missed it before. If I could recommend an individual post, yours would be it.

[in_cog_ni_to]

85. Thank you. I like your thread too.

;)

[Name removed]

120. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Karmakaze]

90. BULLSHIT!!!

For a start, Hamas:

Article Thirty One

Hamas is a humane movement, which cares for human rights and is committed to the tolerance inherent in Islam as regards attitudes towards other religions. It is only hostile to those who are hostile towards it, or stand in its way in order to disturb its moves or to frustrate its efforts.

Under the shadow of Islam it is possible for the members of the three religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in safety and security. Safety and security can only prevail under the shadow of Islam, and recent and ancient history is the best witness to that effect. The members of other religions must desist from struggling against Islam over sovereignty in this region. For if they were to gain the upper hand, fighting, torture and uprooting would follow; they would be fed up with each other, to say nothing of members of other religions. The past and the present are full of evidence to that effect.

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818.htm

It is clear from this that Hamas was NOT calling for the genocide of Jews.

As for Hizbullah:

A member of Hizbullah's Political Council, the former member of parliament Ali Tah, gave a lecture on "The Unity of the Monotheistic Religions" (Voice of Islam Radio, Jan. 26). He said, "We do not oppose the Jews, but are against Jewish racism and Jewish Zionism. I call on all believers in monotheistic religions to join the `Resistance' because the struggle is everyone's. According to the strategy of the `Resistance,' the existence of the racist `Zionist entity' must be annulled, as Khomeini and Ali Khamenhei said." Ali Tah added that the struggle now being waged by the "Resistance" against the Jews and Zionists is one of existence, and not as some of them claim a struggle
over borders.

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/970211.htm

Once again making it clear that the fight is against the nation of Israel, not the Jews as a people. I couldnt find their "mission statement", so perhaps you could provide a link to support your claim?

In an effort to find the "quote" you gave I did a Google search for "We will never stop until the blood of every Jewish man, woman and child flows through the streets and into the sea" - no results. So I tried every combination of pieces of the quote, like "We will never stop until the blood of every Jewish man" and "flows through the streets and into the sea" - still no results.

Is there ANY part of your quote that is actually even remotely TRUE?

Beause it sure smells like BULLSHIT to me.

[KOBUK]

126. If you think Hezbollah and Hamas are humane organizations !

You are the delusional one !

[manic expression]

131. Did you read the post?

Please address its contents before making such claims. Thank you.

[KOBUK]

142. Yeah, I read It !

Actions speak louder then words.They are both terrorists organizations hell bent on the destruction of Israel(Jews) !If you think other wise you are as delusional as well.

[manic expression]

160. Good

the assertion that was being countered was specifically about words. Therefore, the quotes that were presented show the opposite of that original claim.

Secondly, please cite actions which clearly show an aim "hell bent on the destruction of Israel(Jews)". This is quite interesting, because I can cite Israel's actions throughout its entire history which clearly show an aim of oppressing and/or destroying entire peoples.

[KOBUK]

166. How about people with explosives strapped to their bodies ,

blowing up buses full of people in Israel and then Hamas claiming responsibility ?

[manic expression]

174. First understand the situation

then try thinking about it.

Palestine has had its land stolen and its people murdered since before 1947. Israel continues to oppress the people of Palestine, restrict everything from their freedom of movement to their borders to even their life expectancy. Do you expect people to just take this? No, people will fight back, and they will fight back the only ways they can. Those bombers are fighting against injustice and oppression, it is practically all they can do to mount opposition to the wrongdoing which injures them and their people and then some.

Besides all that, this whole dilemma was never about suicide bombers, it started with the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers. They were kidnapped (at least the ones in Gaza) because there are many innocent Palestinian women and children behind bars in Israel, something which is disgusting and terrible and wrong.

[Igel]

157. Yes, massa.

So the problem is the uppity Jews don't admit that they want to live in an Islamic paradise, with their actions constrained by shari'a.

Instead, they form a majority in some areas, and actually deign to not properly submit. They claim to possess Islamic waqf. They're uppity.

And there's a shari'a-based response to non-submission to the proper, superior authorities. It's battle. If the inferior doesn't properly submit, and doesn't escape, he dies. All the monotheistic religions have the same faith, the same beliefs, and the same endpoint: Islam. That's the unity.

There's a stunning similarity between whites in the American south in the late 1860s and Hamas/Hezbollah. Both were eaten up by hate, by delusions of their own superiority, by blaming the violence on non-submission of the inferior to the superior, and viewing as enemies the people that made the situation possible: the US. And both sets of people claimed that if the inferior folk properly knew their place and took it, things would be so much better.

What did the blacks do to merit such hate?

The difference is that while blacks are born that way--even though some tried to lighten their skin--Jews and Christians can accept submission. They just don't.

[in_cog_ni_to]

161. OMG...

I didn't make it past the first freakin sentence! "Hamas is a HUMANE MOVEMENT." :rofl::rofl: Who are you trying to kid? Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist organization and always have been. GEEZUS. A Humane Movement?:rofl::rofl:

[manic expression]

129. Don't be ignorant

In case you didn't notice, Israel is undeniably guilty of ethnic cleansing, theft of land, injustice, oppression and worse. From its inception, Israel has siezed the land of others without justification, Israel has constantly murdered innocents. Its entire history is one of theft and wrongdoing.

Those groups will not recognize Israel because they see no reason for recognition. Even before al-Nakba, it was clear that Israel was only interested in expansion and domination at the expense of entire peoples and nations. There is nothing to indicate that that has changed. Please.

[sendero]

146. Get it through your thick head...

... we don't "support Hezbollah" and we don't support Israel either.

THEY BOTH SUCK AND THEY BOTH SUCK ABOUT THE SAME AMOUNT. FUCK THEM ALL.

Israel is just as cuplable for the current state of the ME as anyone. There will never be any kind of settlement as long as every time some terrorists lob bombs they go straight for punitive collective punishment. THEY ARE NO BETTER.

[stepnw1f]

182. notice how the person ignores what you say

I do believe this person made up their mind wayyyy before this shit went down.

[LostinVA]

200. No real DUer has ever said Hezbollah = GOOD.

Lots of hyperbole and being disgenious in some of these posts. God.

Some of y'all are spinning so fast, I'm surprised you ahven't taken off yet...

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrSlayer]

11. Talking to those people would do no good.

They are fanatics and maniacs hell bent on nothing less than the complete destruction of Israel. The sooner they are wiped out the better. There really is nothing else that can be done. And this brings us back to the point where if the majority of Muslims are not supporters of these actions why don't they rise up and do something about the minority who is causing all the trouble? If not directly taking care of it themselves, then at least give their positions away or identify them in some way so they can be dealt with. You can never make peace with fundamentalists.

[K8-EEE]

16. You Can't "Wipe Them Out" Without Creating More

People don't like being bombed, it just creates more violence. You don't think people who have lost homes and families aren't going to be pissed off at the ones who dropped the bombs?

[MrSlayer]

23. Well they are the ones who should be rising up.

Against the terrorist groups. Because it is the fault of these groups that thier houses are being bombed.

[blonndee]

30. Lebanon did rise up against Syria

and look where they are now. I wouldn't blame them for being afraid to "rise up" again.

[High Plains]

50. Terrorist groups aren't bombing their homes--Israel is.

And it hides behind the "the terrorists made me do it" defense. Pathetic.

[MrSlayer]

71. Ah, I see.

Israel is simply indiscriminately bombing people for no reason at all. I guess I blew the call on that one.

:patriot:







Edit: added a word.

[High Plains]

89. No, Israel is grossly overreacting and doesn't really care how

many Lebanese civilians are killed by its precision weapons. Nor, apparently, has it given any thought to what this is doing to the friendly Lebanese government.

[Karmakaze]

91. So are you saying...

That Israel has a REASON to indescriminately bomb innocent civillians? Really? By that argument every suicide bombing in Israel was completely justified.

[in_cog_ni_to]

162. Hezbollah hides their weapons in HIGHLY POPULATED AREAS

and use private homes with launching rooms in HIGHLY POPULATED neighborhoods. Then they use the dead people in their propaganda videos. There's a difference in trying to destroy hidden weaponry and suicide bombers killing just to kill. It's sad that you refuse to see the difference.

[manic expression]

136. Basically

Israel does bomb people to create fear and assert their power.

If you knew ANYTHING, you'd know that when Israel isn't in a conflict with Lebanon, Israeli warplanes routinely break the sound barrier over Beirut to scare and traumatize the kids (but you didn't know that, which should tell you something).

[Name removed]

171. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dunedain]

93. Is it also possible that some of those people

the ones who were/are being bombed that is, might also be angry at the people whose actions led to such reprisals?

[martymar64]

172. What kind of Stockholm Syndrome BS is that?

You would blame the one who bombed you and killed your family. Not the ones fighting on your behalf.

[Truthiness Inspector]

31. Thank you. n/t

[Little Star]

119. Maybe as soon as the west....

give their positions away or identify themselves as being arab haters. This whole thing is the Hatfields and McCoys and we so called christians are and have always been taking sides. What came first the chicken or the egg in this Jewish/Muslim tit for tat? How about we start using our heads instead of our might. Israel carries a BIG stick and its the USA. We are a good part of why Arab people are so angry. There are two sides to every story and our corporate media only shows us the propaganda they want us to see. I say both sides need to grow the freck up!!! I also pray that both peoples have an end to this destruction soon. I really have no dog in this fight but am merely counter balancing your post.

[snappyturtle]

135. I think you've hit the nail on the head!

And, surprise, surprise, it's the media, AGAIN! I've seen little on the plight of Israel's "enemies"...smidgeons on FSTV and Link and believe me those reports changed my mind about Israeli intentions. The Israelis may not have a formal statement about ridding the area of "undesireables", but their actions are very revealing.

[manic expression]

133. Yes it would

If there was some shred of an effort to talk to those groups, there is quite the possibility for improvement. However, Israel has never really talked with ANY group it is not allied with or obligated to.

[Name removed]

170. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stranger81]

192. negotiating with the Israelis would do Hizbollah no good

They are fanatics and maniacs hell bent on nothing less than the complete destruction of the Palestinians and their Arab neighbors -- from the river to the sea. The sooner they are wiped out the better. There really is nothing else that can be done. And this brings us back to the point where if the majority of Israelis are not supporters of their government's actions, then why don't they rise up and do something about the minority who is causing all the trouble? If not directly taking care of it themselves, then at least give their positions away or identify them in some way so they can be dealt with. You can never make peace with fundamentalists.

[cali]

194. "The sooner they are wiped out the better"

why don't you tell us how you really feel? Calling for the destruction of Israel is hardly a legitimate response. And how about some consistancy from you? Don't you think you should be calling for the U.S. to be wiped out?

You are not a reasonble critic of Israel. There's nothing wrong with condemning israel for its actions; there's a lot wrong with calling for the eradication of 6 million people.

You are advocating genocide. How charming.

[K8-EEE]

12. Has An Arab Country Ever OCCUPIED ISRAEL?

Has an Arab country ever been invaded & occupied BY Israel?

I'm against violence -- on all sides, but this region has always been like this, I don't think the clashing religions and cultures will ever get it together, so why are we funding this madness?

I know a local Lebanese family here in L.A. who are just frantic with worry about people they can't get ahold of, this is in a Christian area too, why are they bombing there? To "defend" themselves from what??

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

13. Hezbollah is not a nation, it's a political party

Aren't there radical political parties in Israel that have called for the deportation of every arab from Palestine and the killing of those who won't leave? I believe there were movements inspired by Rabbi Kahane that advocated just that, although I don't know how influential they are at present.

The answer is to allow the Arab nations in the area to grow and acquire enough strength to keep violent movements like Hezbollah in check and/or integrate them into the government where they might become more moderate. I'm sure there are those within Hezbollah and Hamas who would lay down their arms and renounce violence if given the proper circumstances. Unfortunately, we are heading in the opposite direction, with the Palestinian government getting squeezed and economically depleted and with Lebanon's government and entire civil society getting taken apart. This environment tends to make the radical elements more powerful and influential.

[joemurphy]

15. I'd say a pox on both their houses. Israel for always resorting

to a violent solution and the Palestinians for resorting to terror. But I still care about the place because of the innocents -- the average people, that just want to get on with their lives but can't control those with the guns. Sadly, the leaders of neither side wants peace enough to actually seek it. So we have this ongoing cycle of war, generation after generation, that never ends.

[K8-EEE]

18. I Agree. If We Give So Much Taxpayer $$ To Israel

Then we should have a say on them bombing civilian infrastructure, etc. And I say NO.

[Poll_Blind]

17. Israel does not want Arab nations destroyed. What they want...

...are Arab nations who will submit to Israel's desire to be the dominating force in the region, while it posesses nuclear weapons and the highest-tech weaponry that the world (vis-a-vis the United States) has to offer and who use that weaponry with frequency and openly against civilians.

  That will not happen soon.

  The Arabs want nuclear weapons. Right or wrong, it doesn't matter. It is a reaction to the military inequality present. Not to mention that both Israel and Syria/Iran are proxies to varying degrees of Western and Eastern military powers grown fat and old, who enjoy executing bloody idelological wars, generally, with other nations' peoples.

PB

[K8-EEE]

20. True -- Is It Really Reasonable To Ask This?

If you are going to insist on being the only nuke-ster in the region and all that then you better act responsibly with it, as a deterent, and use no more leathel force than necessary for defense. When you go on a every-day-bombing binge and cause this much suffering, you will lose support. Israel has really lost me on this. This is not going to stop terrorism, any more than bombing Iraq did.

[Poll_Blind]

40. It is not reasonable to ask but that is what they are asking, at...

...gun-point. Many unreasonable requests have been made at the threat of violence and a few, famously, rejected(usually by same).

PB

[Spazito]

25. Do you believe Israel is acting with restraint, re-acted to the kidnapping

and killing of 3 soldiers with a proportional response?

[Poll_Blind]

33. Not even Ze'ev Schiff believed this was about the soldiers. n/t

PB

[the_angry_one]

38. Does anyone else see a freakin' parallel between Israel & Bush??

Both are overt paternalistic bullies killing innocent lives in the name of self defense!

Israel thinks it's justified for every one Israeli killed they have the right to kill a hundred palestinians or arabs regardless of their guilt.

Also, just because I criticize U.S. that does not mean I'm unpatriotic or an enemy of the country. So to all the rabid zionists out there don't call me an antisemite.

The simple sad truth regarding this problem and everything else is the fact that all the religious zealots and the political conservatives of both israel and arab/palestinians are causing all the violence and deaths!!! These people need to get some self-esteem and forget the need of having an enemy all the time.

[the_angry_one]

43. Those Evil Children!!!!

By the way guess which side these children are on?

http://thismodernworld.com/3005

[Truthiness Inspector]

46. Umm

Those girls and all generations of their families would be dead if the intended targets of those rockets had their way. Having said that, I don't like the idea of children signing rockets.

Try looking for pictures of children used by those who hate Israel. You'll find far more than 2 pictures of 2 kids.

[K8-EEE]

49. That Goes On Both Sides -- Both Sides Just Perpetuate This

I feel really bad for those girls. But that is what is happening in our country too, hate and warmongering.

[the_angry_one]

56. These are the children of so called a "modernized democratic" nation...

It appears that the children of the palestinian side are already accepted and dismissed as brainwashed future terrorists. So why even compare? Aren't these children the product of the freedom loving democratic, peace loving Israelis?

Shouldn't Israelis be judged on a higher standard? Aren't the palestinians bunch of savage terrorists anyway?

[MikeStl]

84. I still don't see why

These kids would want to sign a bomb thats going to be used to kill some innocent family. Unless of course the Israeli military nearby is lying to them and telling them they are only going to be used to bomb terrorists.

[in_cog_ni_to]

86. Yep, those evil children!!!

[manic expression]

137. Excuse me,

but what is your point?

[Lerkfish]

39. Tanks and missiles make effective communication

kinda hard to misinterpret that.

[question everything]

42. Hezbolla's Nassralla

said that it would be so much easy if all the world Jewry were inside Israel. They he would not have to go after them world wide.

If this is not anti-Semitism then I don't know what is.

[K8-EEE]

47. But There Are People Who Want To Kill All The Arabs Too...

You could find them on Free Republic! "Bomb them into a glass parking lot" etc....

Work with the majority of people who don't feel that way, the way they are behaving they will just create more hatred.

[laundry_queen]

101. You don't have to go to

Free Republic to find this mindset. Just check post #11.

[mom cat]

44. Read all of the following article, then we can talk:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stan-goff/the-pword_b_25144.html

[springhill]

188. Wow!

Stan Goff is great. A lot of information I need to do some research on. Thanks for the link.

[itzamirakul]

196. Thanks for the link to the Goff post. It is very insightful. Too bad

that many supporters of Israel only won't read this to gain some perspective.

I've got a real problem with so many americans having dual citizenship. I think it is a cause of our becomeing some ideologically divided among ourselves.

[Clarkie1]

48. Kicked and Recommended. Excellent post...your username fits! nt

[Truthiness Inspector]

62. Thank you

I appreciate it.

[Minstrel Boy]

51. Does Palestine count? n/t

[Karenina]

52. They don't SAY it

They just DO IT.

[malaise]

54. I don't care what Israel said

I an watching a CNN journalist walking through the destruction of civilian homes in Lebanon and Israel's actions speak way more than what they may have said.

What Israel has done and continues to do to the Palestinians is worse than Apartheid South Africa. Take a good look within and spare me the beatitudes about Israel. Study the military apparatus.

This is the personification of evil. I am so glad I have no gods.

[Junkdrawer]

55. Seen this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1668548

[blonndee]

57. Yup, I'd say they're hell bent on destruction, based on their ACTIONS.

[malaise]

65. Yes thanks

I am beginning to believe only athiests actually believe thou shall not kill. All religion is evil.

[Nevernose]

92. You're leaving out quite a bit

He also said that the person on film, and the people accompanying him, were all Hezbollah. He was not allowed to inspect the rubble, not allowed to interview anyone but him. Hezbollah would give the tour.

Admittedly, it could have been random attacks on civilians. However, if the IDF sponsored a tour of a stricken area and did not allow questions of citizens or a search of the wreckage, what would you say?

What I am saying is that you, me, and we need to keep an open mind. Just because some guy on TV said it was so, doesn't make it so. The same standard should be applied to Israel.

Another question, though: if all of these sites were in civilian areas of Lebanese-controlled Beirut, then why was hezbollah giving the tour? There may be a perfectly innocent answer to this question.

[originalpckelly]

58. Israel is guilty of negligent homicide, Hezbollah is guilty of homicide.

Israel has the best intelligence service in the world. They can kill the terrorists in a way that causes less collateral damage. Hezbollah has killed people simply out of hatred, and they purposefully kill civilians.

Furthermore, Israel has attacked Lebanese military units, which are not participating in combat against Israel. These units are clearly marked, and I highly doubt Israel didn't know these individuals were Lebanese military. Unless the units fired upon Israeli fighters, it is not a justification of these deaths to say that they could be Hezbollah.

[the_angry_one]

63. Why has Israelis destroyed the airports and bridges?

Did all the destroyed bridges have secret hiding compartments for the Hezbollah members??

Did Hezbollah have weekly meetings at the airport lounge/bar??

Forget self defense!! This is about strategically maintaining a power grip in the region regardless of the number of innocent lives being killed on both sides!

[blonndee]

67. And dairies and pharmaceutical plants, paper mills, etc.

Thanks to the poster who provided the link upthread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1668548

[Warren Stupidity]

68. Oh nonsense.

Bombing residential neighborhoods in Beirut is not 'negligent homicide'. Shelling the beach in Gaza was not negligent homicide. Israel is as guilty as Hamas and Hezbollah of targeting civilians.

[originalpckelly]

103. Now y'all know we can't say that...

or the AIPAC Dems will be all over us.

[TankLV]

60. You are soooo right on this one.

You got my unequivocal agreement and support.

I still can't believe the crap that some DU'rs SUPPORT these TERRORIST organizations!

[the_angry_one]

69. It's so funny... you guys seem so liberal except for this issue...hmm

You guys seems to be outraged when a powerful bully like U.S. run amok in the world in the name of self defense and yet when it comes to Israel, for some reason they are only defending themselves and are totally guilt free of any actions. I think it's funny and sad.

[TankLV]

82. I think it's just sad that you and too many others here support and defend

a TERRORIST organization.

No wonder we look foolish to outsiders.

[Lindacooks]

186. Good God. We're not 'supporting a terrorist organization'.

We are against the indisciminate slaughter of innocent people (CHILDREN) because Israel has an itchy trigger finger.

[Recursion]

139. I'll speak for myself here

As far as I'm concerned, I'm appalled by Israel's overreaction and I think they're making things worse for themselves and the region as a whole. If I've come off as "pro-Israel" in any of my posts lately, it's because I'm really, really disturbed by how many positive things I'm seeing written here about Hezbollah and Hamas.

[Deja Q]

61. I agree with you totally.

Both sides have their problems, but Israel's leader did not run around threatening to blow Iran off the map.

But Iran has been doing the overt threatening.

It seems straightforward to me who the danger is.

Not to defend Israel either... they all need to grow up. But Iran is clearly a threat.

[Warren Stupidity]

64. Well yes they have.

On Monday, Israel's ambassador to the United States, Daniel Ayalon, called for a "regime change" in both Syria and Iran at a conference of the Anti-Defamation League. He argued that while the American invasion of Iraq and overthrow of Saddam helped create great opportunities for Israel, it was "not enough."

http://www.forward.com/issues/2003/03.05.02/news4.html

[Truthiness Inspector]

72. Wrong

The regimes he was talking about are the ones who want genocide. The speaker, Israeli Ambassador Ayalon was not advocating genocide, he was advocating the removal of those who DO support genocide.

[Warren Stupidity]

74. You asked a simple question and I answered it.

"Has Israel ever said they want Muslim nations destroyed?" - the answer is yes it has. You now want to change your question to one about the destruction of a people, not a nation. Nice try, I'm not playing.

[Truthiness Inspector]

77. Nope

Destroying a nation = wiping it out, not removing genocidal regimes that control it.

You aren't playing anymore because you lost the game.

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dunedain]

97. Wow

Talk about relativism. Iran issues almost daily statements that to all but the most obtuse of people would read as Israel as a nation and people need to be burn in the hell fires of perdition, and you claim that "regime change" is equivalent?
I just don't see it, I must be quite the dullard.

[Warren Stupidity]

109. Iran has said no such thing.

It consistently calls for the destruction of the zionist entity, by which they mean the government of Israel, and you all consistently are told that this means 'kill all the Jews' and you believe it. They are calling for regime change.

[Karmakaze]

66. Funny, Ive never seen Arabs call for the genocide of Jews...

Ive seen them call for the eradication of a state that was forced upon them by outsiders and that has ever since killed them at a ratio far in excess of 10 to 1, but I have never seen them directly call for genocide of Jews. Perhaps you can provide a link to any of the aforementioned organisations making that call?

[TankLV]

83. Read some of the above posts - there are plenty of DIRECT quotaes calling

for what you claim does not exist.

[Karmakaze]

94. BULLSHIT

Direct "quotes" one of which can not be found even in part in Google, and the other is not even a quote. Provide some links to these quotes and we will see just how accurate they are. I'm even willing to accept ones from the IDF or other Israeli organisations.

Provide the vidence or accept that it is BULLSHIT.

[Dunedain]

99. How about this

"In October, Ahmadinejad called for Israel to be "wiped off the map."

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20060102/ai_n15977264

Now, we could argue about what Israel means, but I think it is safe to say it represents both a nation and a people in most usable terms, no?
On edit, yes I understand that Iran is persian, not arab, so technically I didn't refute your assertion.

[Lerkfish]

105. we know he has been deliberately misquoted in the past,

or mistranslated. AT any rate, I don't see where this gets us either way.
one side says kill the other side....or not. Doesn't get us any closer to a solution to fixate on that.

[Karmakaze]

115. Once again - BULLSHIT

First of all, this is a new quote which is in fact a misquote. Ahmadinejad actually called for the REGIME occupying Jerusalem to be "wiped from the pages of history" which to me sounds suspiciously like "regime change".

To further clarify:

In April 2006, Iran's ambassador was asked directly about Ahmadinejad's position towards Israel by CNN correspondent Wolf Blitzer:<16>

BLITZER: But should there be a state of Israel?

SOLTANIEH: I think I've already answered to you. If Israel is a synonym and will give the indication of Zionism mentality, no.

But if you are going to conclude that we have said the people there have to be removed or they have to be massacred or so, this is fabricated, unfortunate selective approach to what the mentality and policy of Islamic Republic of Iran is. I have to correct, and I did so.

Once again, this is a call for the eradication of the state of Israel, NOT a call for the genocide of Jews.

Here is a quote for you. Who said this:

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."

When you answer that question, you will see why it is perfectly reasonable for Arabs to call for the eradication of the state of Israel.

[voter x]

180. "we know he has been deliberately misquoted in the past"

there was confusion as to the actual meaning of the message right?

Ahmadinejad is generally more opt to make the distinction between Israel and Jews in his public addresses.

:wtf:
:nuke:
:wtf:

[Karmakaze]

184. It was a mistranslation...

Someone tried to convert a Persian idiom (essentially "wiped from the pages of history") into a western idiom ("wiped from the map"). Then the sentence was taken out of context, dropping the "regime" and only using the last part of the sentence (which was mistranslated anyway) in quotes.

When you read more of the surrounding parts of the speech it becomes clear he is talking about the government/nation state of Israel, NOT the people. In other words he called for regime change, just like Bush called for regime change in Iran. If, for example Bush had his way, the Islamic Republic of Iran would be "wiped from the pages of history" to use the Persian idiom. A more correct western translation would be "consigned to the pages of history" - meaning that it would no longer exist in the present.

People seem to forget that historically it was the CHRISTIANS that persecuted the Jews, not the Muslims. In fact Jews and Muslims lived side by side in Palestine UNTIL the Zionists decided to ethnically cleanse "Israel" of its Arab population to ensure a Jewish majority.

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

[itzamirakul]

197. Funny, isn't it, how these well-documented quotes from Zionist leaders

are never responded to.

The supporters of racist regimes just move on to accusations of antisemitism or agony because they think we should all be in lockstep in support of one nation over the other.

The thing that bothers me most is that if this support of racist regimes is allowed to flourish with OUR support and OUR weapons and OUR tax dollars, then how long before it will occur here in the states?

[progressivebydesign]

70. Oh is Israel asking the lebanese civilians if they support them..

before they bomb them to death and destroy their cities???

[Truthiness Inspector]

80. In a fashion, yes

They are dropping leaflets hours in advance warning them to leave known Hezbollah environs.
What is Hezbollah doing to protect Israeli civilians? Answer: Nothing, because they want to kill civilians.

[JuniperLea]

112. Hezbollah environs

Oh, you mean like airports and major roads? Leaflets? How nice. And did those leaflets tell them where they should go and who would pay for that relocation?

[manic expression]

138. In every fashion, no

I don't care what leaflets they drop, it doesn't matter when their bombs seem to find innocent civilians.

Hezbollah is fighting Israel and its injustice and oppression the only way they can.

[jonnyblitz]

73. the extreme far right element (and there is one) in Israel

I am sure would like nothing better than for every Palestinian to be wiped off the face of the earth and, by the looks of things lately, its probably a view of less radical elements, too. whatever the equivalent of those JDL nut bags are in Israel, or the types that think like Rabin's assassin.

[Truthiness Inspector]

75. "you're sure"?

Try supporting that with facts. And I don't mean any wingnut random comments, but comments made by the leaders of Israel. That is what this thread is about.

[jonnyblitz]

100. ok...i concede..,i was talking about fringe elements not leaders.

i didn't read your post thoroughly. :hi:

[Name removed]

79. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Stranger]

87. Golda said there was no such thing as "Palestinians."

I'm sure Kach talked about destroying all of the Muslims. Anyone want to google them? Fucking Michael Savage says it on the radio on almost a daily basis.

Who's kidding who here?

[Nevernose]

96. The Israelis have changed their position on that

Before the stroke, Sharon tacitly said that the Palesitinians should have their own nation. A large part of the Arab world, however, doesn't give a rat's ass about human rights or land or Israel or Palstine of anything else: they just want to see dead Jews. It's called anti-semitism, and just because many people here in the West have moved beyond it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, rampantly, elsewhere.

How many missiles did Kach launch at the nation of Lebanon? How mahy Lebanese soldiers did it kidnap?

[The Stranger]

111. It sounds as if you didn't like the answer to the question.

And Kach did many vile and disgusting things, probably including kidnappings, although I don't know the details. If you want to find out, use Google or Wikipedia.

Obviously asking open-ended questions on this message board doesn't serve the purpose perhaps some intended.

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

98. Im neither agreeing or disagreeing with the OP

but one opinion piece in the HuffPost is hardly a refutation of the OP

[JackNewtown]

102. You have a valid point

However, your timing is very bad. ;)

[Bluerthanblue]

104. actions speak louder than words, but there are words-

and not a few of them, on BOTH sides, which speak to wanting each other destroyed-

I personally believe that Israel has displaced some of its very understandable anger and rage upon the Arab nations- If you look at when Israel was established, how soon after the end of WWII they were brought together in Israel- after the shock had dissipated a little, and the reality of what the Jewish community as a whole had been put through.... the awfulness of it.... there was BOUND to be anger, and the desire to be IN CONTROL- and to be hyper vigilant, and distrustful.


However- what the Nazi's did- had absolutely NO provocation- no rational, or logical basis- The enmity between the dis-placed Palestinians and the Nation of Israel, DID have some ....basis for friction, and tension.

There are many legitimate statements from respected people which address this reality-

such as-

Martin Buber, Jewish Philosopher, who addressed Prime Minister Ben Gurion on the moral character of the state of Israel with reference to the Arab refugees in March 1949: " We will have to face the reality that Israel is neither innocent, nor redemptive. And that in its creation, and expansion; we as Jews, have caused what we historically have suffered; a refugee population in Diaspora"

That and what was done in 67 doesn't justify a violent response, but it does explain it.

[donheld]

108. Give the Palestinians Texas! nt

[anarch]

113. fine then. I say, DEATH TO ALL FANATICS

On all sides of all issues, and of every race and creed. With all the fanatics gone, the rest of us can just live our fucking lives without getting missiles and bombs lobbed at us.

I really don't think anyone here supports the terrorist hate-groups. They just don't like seeing babies blown to pieces. If there was a way to destroy an ideology with guns and bombs, it would have been done a long time ago. The problem is, with an all-or-nothing attitude, you either kill all of your enemies--man, woman, and child--or you lose the fight. With the "there can be no compromise, ever!" stance, there is no room for finding a way to get rid of the heinous ideology that is really causing the problem. I'm pretty sure bombing the shit out of civilian populations is just going to strengthen that ideology.

With that, I'm ducking the hell out of this conversation. It seems like, according to some people, if you so much as slightly criticize anything Israel does, you are an anti-Semite; and to others, if you point out that Hiz b'Allah and Hamas are basically genocidal terrorist assholes, you are an insensitive Muslim-hating bigot. Fuck that.

[Dover]

117. Israel had as much incentive to invade Lebanon as the U.S. did Iraq

All built on lies and aggression. The goal is Syria and Iran...always has been. And there is absolutely no real attempt at moderation or the sparing of innocent lives, or indigenous culture.

Both countries have broken almost every international law on the books.

[cracksquirrel]

178. Yeah...

I remember when Iraq snuck in through Mexico, killed eight of our soldiers, and kidnapped two others! Oh yeah, and the flying camels that launch rockets that have been raining down on our Northern border! I only wish I had a link to some of those news stories, because I really think that they would prove your point nicely!

[Malikshah]

118. To repeat-- actions speak louder than words

To keep this whole issue in a religious arena is to miss all the larger issues that drive the conflict.

Religion is on the surface

What is driving the conflict involves
double-standards on human rights
varying views of humanity

[Dover]

122. Not entirely

Let's not forget important pipelines/resources that connect to Iran/Russia/Indonesia/China. That would be a major oversight to not include those hefty incentives.

[Imperialism Inc.]

121. No, but pretty close.

This is from the 70's but is still essentially official Israeli policy.

a comment that Moshe Dayan made back in the early '70s when he was responsible for the Occupied Territories. He said to his cabinet colleagues that we should tell the Palestinians that we have no solution for you, that you will live like dogs, and whoever will leave will leave, and we'll see where that leads.

[jberryhill]

123. Does this count?

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites and to carry out the LORD's vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

---------------------------

The God of Abraham repeatedly instructs his people to genocide.

[mmonk]

127. There weren't any Muslim nations in those days.

[jberryhill]

155. And if there had been?

Then they would have been exempt from the various decrees of genocide commanded by the LORD?

The Israelites are instructed to kill non-Israelite races. Repeatedly.

There are fundie Christians today who believe that modern Israel's primary mistake is failing to follow those orders.

[nadinbrzezinski]

134. You realize that the God of Abraham is

also the god of Christians and Moslems, who ALSO claim that land for themselves?

Now lets try to come up a cuople centuries, or rather millenia from the time that was written, just about oh 5,000 years, and shh, don't tell anybody but that was written by a man, or men, and at a time when that kind of writing was pervasive. Just read Gilgamesh or the book of kings for a flavor of that... perchance I don't the Illiand and the Odisey?

[jberryhill]

156. And you do not realize...

That Ishmael did not inherit the birthright of the House of Israel. On that, Christians and Jews agree.

Where Christians and Jews part ways is the central Christian contention that Jews do not understand their own religion enough to have recognized Christ as Messiah.

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Binka]

183. YES! n/t

[Oversea Visitor]

128. ROFL

Laugh loud, louder.

Hmmmm

Ahhhh which cheerleader group you belong to?

Do you do a triple somersult when you ask for an I?

Or a super shaker for an S?

On well best way to put out fire is to douse it with oil :rofl:

[mmonk]

130. No.

[KingFlorez]

132. I don't think they have to say it

And of course they wouldn't say it, because it would make them look like no better than the Arab countries. The occupied Golan Heights is one example that Israel wants control in the region and would rather not have the Arab countries around.

[yodermon]

141. Wrong. They(some) have called for genocide against the Palestinians.

Forced Relocation of a People is an instantiation of genocide.

What, you didn't know that some powerful Israelis have called for the foreced relocation of the Palestinians, as a matter of policy?

Here are some quotations.

“We should prepare to go over to the offensive. Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai.”
~ David Ben Gurion, 1948-05, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

“There is no such thing as a Palestinian people… It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist.”
~ Golda Meir, Prime Minister of Israel, Statement to The Sunday Times, 1969-06-15

“It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands.”
~ Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, 1972-08-14, responding to public controversy regarding the Israeli evictions of Palestinians in Rafah, Gaza, in 1972. (Cited in Nur Masalha's A land Without A People 1997, p98).

“We walked outside, Ben Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'”
~ Yitzhak Rabin, leaked Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 1979-10-23

“In our country there is room only for the Jews. We shall say to the Arabs: Get out! If they don't agree, if they resist, we shall drive them out by force.”
~ Professor Ben-Zion Dinur, Israel's First Minister of Education, 1954, from History of the Haganah

”We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel…. Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours … When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do will be to scurry around like drugged roaches in a bottle.“
~ Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces - Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot, New York Times 1983-04-14

culled from http://mindprod.com/politics/israel.html

Another website that might interest you: http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

[SaveElmer]

143. You are correct...I actually agree with Russ Feingold on this one...

U.S. Sen. Russ Feingold today defended Israel's right to protect itself amid the escalating conflict along its borders, saying, "I don't think any country is going to let their soldiers be kidnapped, transported, killed ... without a serious response."

Feingold said he would not second-guess "whether that response was exactly as it should be."

Said Feingold: "My hope would be that Israel would use as much restraint as possible .... It's in Israel's interest and the interests of peace. But I do think Israel has not only a right but also a responsibility to respond to the Hezbollah attack."

http://www.jsonline.com/watch/?watch=1&date=7/15/2006&id=8593

Israel has not called for the destruction of any Arab State, and have agreed a Palestinian state should be formed.

[Cameron27]

150. I agree with SaveElmer who agrees with the OP

and agrees with Russ Feingold.

[in_cog_ni_to]

165. Uh oh...now Russ Feingold is on the *Progressive's* shitlist.

:scared: He must be a racist, an idiot and a liar too! Just like me!

I agree with everything he said.:thumbsup:

[JerseygirlCT]

145. I support all of what you said, what I'm concerned with

is not the goal (ridding the world of Hezbollah) but the way that's being carried out.

I think Israel is not being smart in its over-aggressive reaction. It will cause more problems for them, not fewer. And I do not believe they will be successful in entirely rooting out Hezbollah, while they probably will succeed in creating new generations of Hezbollah fodder among the civilians being hurt.

There's no support whatsoever from me for Hezbollah. There's nothing there to support.

[Joe Fields]

148. Good post. Recommended.

[rman]

151. Target Hezbollah, Hezbollah is everywhere, targets everywhere

Innocent civilians better get out of the way - everywhere.

As several people have already pointed out: actions speak louder than words.

[Taverner]

152. Fuck them all

That's my position, and I'm sticking with it.

Israel is a rogue state behaving like a belligerent drunk
Hamas/Palestine is a rogue state within a state behaving like a belligerent drunk

All the good guys have been killed on both sides

Guys, we know the only solution here. Suspend all funds to both sides. Ignore them. Get the hell out of the Mideast. Get off foreign oil. Get off oil.

But that's not going to happen, now is it?

[fat dad]

153. ben Gurion quotes

We must expel Arabs and take their places.
-- David Ben Gurion, the future Prime Minister of Israel, speaking in 1937, quoted from Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs (Oxford University Press: 1985)

A Christian state should be established , with its southern border on the Litani river. We will make an alliance with it. When we smash the Arab Legion's strength and bomb Amman, we will eliminate Transjordan too, and then Syria will fall. If Egypt still dares to fight on, we shall bomb Port Said, Alexandria and Cairo.... And in this fashion, we will end the war and settle our forefathers' account with Egypt, Assyria, and Aram.
-- David Ben Gurion, describing Zionist aims using the language of the ancient Hebrew texts (1948), quoted from Michael Santomauro, Reporter's Notebook

We must do everything to insure they never do return.... The old will die and the young will forget.
-- David Ben Gurion, assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes, quoted from Michael Santomauro, Reporter's Notebook

If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in Nahum Goldmann, Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122

The present map of Palestine was drawn by the British mandate. The Jewish people have another map which our youth and adults should strive to fulfill: from the Nile to the Euphrates.
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted from Michael Santomauro, Reporter's Notebook

[Igel]

158. Is Santomauro his real name?

If so, it's hilarious.

[Bluerthanblue]

175. your truth will be ignored because it doesn't fit the mindset-

there is always a 'good excuse' for bad actions, when one is blind to the flaws of their idols.

[Lindacooks]

187. Thank you. I thought that Israel wouldn't be silent on this.

[Bretttido]

154. I've never said I want any nations destroyed

So it's cool if I kill a bunch of civilians? Kay. just checking!

[coalition_unwilling]

163. Please stop using synecdoche to create straw men -- there are groups

within Israel that have called for a "Greater Israel," to encompass all land between the Sinai and the Golan Heights, including current Palestinian lands. If that entails extermination of people, the pro-Greater Israel groups don't have a problem with it.

For that matter, please stop conflating Israel and "all Jews". They are not one and the same -- there are many Jews, both within Israel and elsewhere, who are strongly opposed to the armed aggression against Lebanon.

Hezbollah does not want the "extermination of all Jews." Give me a friggin break.

[leftchick]

169. they don't need to

like the US they just go ahead and do it in the name of defense.

[stepnw1f]

181. durrrrrrrrrrrrrr... Actions count more than Words

nice try

[Lindacooks]

185. Every hear of a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Israel wants to protect herself, and of course she should have that right. But over-reacting by killing hundreds for two soldiers is only creating many more enemies. This is a never-ending war, unless it ends the world; therefore, self-fullfilling.

[kevinbgoode]

189. Why didn't we just give them Utah?

Perhaps because the Mormons would have acted just as ughly as the Muslims are over the proclamation of Israel's independence. Surely you recall that Israel declared itself a nation unilaterally, not with a popular vote including the other people who weren't Jewish living there.

[stranger81]

190. Israel's done one better than that . . . .

it has consistently denied that the Palestinian people even exist. Not only have they been denied national status because of Israel and the United States, but their basic existence as an ethnic group is fundamentally ignored.

[JackDragna]

193. You cloud the issue.

Yes, many nations and groups want Israel gone. There would be many fewer recruits to their cause, however, if Israel did not constantly do things to turn ordinary Arabs against them. The detaining of people without trial, kidnappings, indiscriminate use of military power, walling off people in Gaza, forcing Palestinians into meaningless, low-paying jobs...all of these things fuels the enmity of other Middle Eastern states. It serves as propaganda for anti-Israel movements throughout the region.

Your comparison to the Holocaust is also a non sequitir in this situation. During World War II, Jews were under the gun from a superpower they knew had it in for them. Many tried to escape, but couldn't. Now, there is a Jewish state that has apparently learned nothing from the strongarm tactics used against them by the Nazis.

If this is you being "flamed," then consider yourself flame. I have read your post and you do deserve criticism, despite your claim.

[jonnyblitz]

198. why say it when they can just go ahead it do it.

actions speak louder than words.

[malaise]

199. The answer is yes

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1696420&mesg_id=1698609

Quote: Israel's very formation was based on ensuring access to water. "It is necessary that the water sources, upon which the future of the Land depends, should not be outside the borders of the future Jewish homeland," wrote Israel's former prime minister David Ben-Gurion in 1973. "For this reason we have always demanded that the Land of Israel include the southern banks of the Litani River, the headwaters of the Jordan, and the Hauran Region from the El Auja spring south of Damascus."

http://www.unu.edu/unupress/unupbooks/80859e/80859E07.htm

Leaflets urging residents in southern Lebanon to leave their homes and move north of the Litani River, 25 miles (40 kilometers) from the Israeli border, have been dropped in the region, the IDF said.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/21/mideast/index.html

Get that water no matter who you kill!