$50/trip "Congestion Charge" targets SUV commuters (Guardian)

[redacted]

<snip>

(London Mayor Ken Livingstone's) latest gambit is a proposal to make the congestion charge a progressive green tax by operating a sliding scale that may see owners of big 4x4s pay up to £25 a day to drive inside the zone (also to be extended west). Always with the astute eye of a natural populist on how class struggle can still be smuggled in to contemporary politics, Livingstone has unabashedly declared war on the Chelsea tractors.

The motoring lobby is squealing at the prospect, complaining that 4x4 owners already pay higher "road tax" (vehicle excise duty, in fact). Yet even the biggest gas-guzzler will cost its owner a maximum of merely £215 a year in the new band G that just kicked in for cars registered after March this year. And what's that for the Chelsea resident who lives in a home worth at least £1m and just spent at least £35k on a new BMW X5, for which a full tank of unleaded will cost about £100 every time?

There is no excuse for these behemoths. Very, very few people will ever need their 4x4 capability; the vast majority of these vehicles merely clog up our urban roads, scarcely managing double-digit mpg figures in snarled-up rush-hour traffic. The chief reason these cars are bought, besides fashion and kudos, is because they make people feel safe: the 4x4 vehicle is to personal transport what the gated community is to estates. The trouble is that their safety is at others' expense: get hit by one of these two-tonne monsters, and you will come off worse. Then there are the environmental costs imposed by their size and inefficiency. In short, society is left to foot the bill for individuals pursuing their self-interest.

If at last a politician has the chutzpah to say, "We all know we should be driving less, so we need to create a pattern of incentives and penalties to deliver that aim," then let us applaud him. It is simply common sense that those who insist on driving these grotesquely extravagant vehicles should be obliged to pay for the privilege.

And, of course, they are perfectly free to drive a smaller car, catch a bus, ride a bike or even - shock! - walk.

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/matt_seaton/2006/07/post_221.html

[girl gone mad]

1. Reading this..

makes me feel really, really poor.

[MADem]

4. It is really quite insane over there

When you look at prices, even though the pound is "worth" a buck fifty to two bucks, depending on the rate, the VALUE of what you get for that pound is really like the value of what a dollar would get you.

By this, I mean, that television set in the window--if the price were dollars, not pounds, it would be a fair price. That video camera--same deal. The restaurant meal, the rent, you name it.

[dipsydoodle]

13. You cannot draw the comparison in that way

- don't work without taking all factors into account including the exchange rate between the $ and the £. If the $ were to go down the tubes your prices could increase without necessarily affecting ours. The reason I said "could" is because the price of goods is partly determined by what people are prepared to pay for those goods. You've never had a period of rapid inflation so I'm not sure how you'd react to it.

[MADem]

14. Look, I lived there for half a decade, and I am just passing on an

observation. The way the economy is set up over there, if it's worth price X in DOLLARS, that's what they charge for it in pounds. It applies pretty much across the board, from electronics, to rent, to a car, to a coffee, to a pizza at the Pizza Hut.

Never mind the exchange rate, which varies like I said between a buck fifty to two bucks. Pretend it doesn't even exist. If you would pay five bucks for something, anything, in the US, you're gonna pay five pounds for it over there.

It's just an observation, nothing more.

[pitohui]

2. it's close to that already isn't it?

there is no where to park in london anyway, i should think you'd be insane to park a car there, much less an SUV so even if you didn't have the congestion charges the parking eats you alive

a man in the cotswalds told me his friend won a trip to london and couldn't go because he found out to park the car there (the parking wasn't included) would cost him 45 pounds a day, he was a country boy, i guess, because i would have just gone and not taken the car, it isn't needed in london, but this had never crossed the man's mind or that of his friend

[redacted]

3. There's nowhere to park in San Francisco either, BUT

go to any downtown garage like the Sutter-Stockton Garage on a weekday and the SUVs outnumber other kinds of vehicles parked there by 3 to 1 or more.

Arrogant corporate VPs who work in those San Francisco skyscrapers generally live in gated communities like Blackhawk, 50 or more miles away. And they HATE public transit because they don't want to sit next to "those people." I know the mentality because I used to work with those guys before i started my own business.

And I'll bet things aren't that much different in London.

[AndyTiedye]

7. A Lot of Them Are Doing the "Green" Thing and Moving Into the City

Of course, that means that somebody with less money has to move out,
because the vacancy rate in San Francisco is like 0.0001%.

[SensibleAmerican]

11. Well, that's because the costs to park an SUV is the same as to park a car

The mayor, rightly or wrongly, is trying to reduce the number of SUVs in the city. I don't think this will improve congestion, as cars are still able to drive without increased tax, but it will improve the environment.

[RB TexLa]

5. It's already time for another YOU PEOPLE who drive SUV's are EVIL thread?

Didn't we just have a couple of them last week? :shrug:

[redacted]

6. LOL! We need a lot more threads like that.

SUV drivers around here are speeding, tailgating road bullies who drive up gas prices, pollute the air, kill people--AND steal handicapped parking spaces from handicapped drivers. And everybody knows it.

It doesn't matter how many threads we have or had on SUV drivers--there could never be enough.

[RB TexLa]

8. Well, I don't speed, tailgate, kill anyone, or steal parking spaces from

handicapped, I don't know if I am "around here" for you or not but if I am and you seem to want to believe I do such things, please at least wait till I have put my SUV in park before you shoot me.

Everyone driving a vehicle is providing a demand for energy, if it is me getting 11 mpg or someone getting 45 mpg.

[redacted]

9. ROTFL! That's funny!

Besides, you're absolutely right. I just bought a new road bicycle.

[lindisfarne]

10. Yes, but the person getting 45 mpg is creating 1/4 the demand of 11 mpg.

Cutting our gasoline demand by 50% and correspondingly the pollution emissions would help the world a whole lot!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

17. Speaking as someone who spends a reasonable amount of time in London...

I will say that people who drive SUVs in London are, in fact, the Devil. Beelzebub on four wheels.

:evilgrin:

[dipsydoodle]

12. It's worth noting the following

The Central Zone Charge currently affects the very centre of London only - yes, it will spread it a bit further west soon. It has been successful in as much it has deterred unnecessary journeys through the centre and it's now far easier to drive in that area when necessary and has freed off road space for buses etc. Despite a few shortcomings central London does have a good public transport system.

Charge zones will eventually spread to other UK cities and I have no doubt that the powers that be in foreign cities continue to watch the situation closely - in other words the USA may have the same in the future in your cities.

The UK's annual road tax is now based on the CO2 rating of the engine of all cars regardless of type. That was done to encourage drivers in the UK to use more efficient engines. The higher charge is directed toward cars that have engines with high CO2 ratings. It is only by implication that that translates into "SUVs" - it will also affect some normal cars particularly older models. The difference between the bands is hardly significant other than for electric cars , LPG and hybrid cars the taxes on which are minimal.

SUV double cab pick up variants are classed as commercials due to their spring ratings and I'm guessing they will escape the higher zone charge. Some of the drivers of those have got them for reasons of lower personal tax - that is a different issue which is beyond the scope of this thread.

[slaveplanet]

15. I was just thinking

you wrote:
----------------------
SUV double cab pick up variants are classed as commercials due to their spring ratings and I'm guessing they will escape the higher zone charge. Some of the drivers of those have got them for reasons of lower personal tax - that is a different issue which is beyond the scope of this thread.
----------------------

What does the handyman that earns 15K per year do?

Haul in his 4x8 sheets of drywall and his toolbox into town on the bus?

[dipsydoodle]

16. If a company runs a car for an employee

then the employees gets taxed on the value as a benefit in kind. Tax on a commercial is only treated as at £500 - at max 40% tax rate so it then costs the employee £ 200. A normal SUV would be taxed at 35% of the retail price /year so could land costing the employee say 40% of £ 35000 which is a whole lot more. A couple of years back the manufacturers purposely increased the spring ratings to a ton on the double cab pickups which meant they then became commercials by definition whether the Inland Revenue liked it or not.

This issue is completely unassociated with a self employed handiman who may actually need a double cab pickup. I was just talking about normal everyday family drivers putting one over our Revenue dept and also ducking out of higher zone charges.

OK ? :)

[redacted]

18. Thanks edwardlindy!

Clarifications from folks close to the action like you are always helpful.

BTW, you collect guitars too?

[dipsydoodle]

19. Got about 8 I think

nothing special though and all are acoustic. I've also got mandolins, dulcimers, autoharps etc quite apart from a 100 or so banjos. I just happen to like old time traditional music from the Appalchians and late 60's country rock etc. There was a time when I'd go out dancing to swing music every night night of the week but I've slowed down over the past six years and now just collect fretted instruments and go out listening to good music. I've an absurd number of CDs as well - mainly jazz, string band/banjo and Carter Family etc.

Cats woke me up - think I'm 8 hours ahead of you. Goodnight !