Hard lesson: If you're next to Israel, don't shoot rockets at them.

[Redstone]

Let me state right here that I believe Israel should leave the West Bank, Gaza, and Lebanon alone as a general principle.

But, folks, what would WE do if rockets were being fired into Texas, Arizona, or California from Mexico?

What would we do?

Redstone

[Lost-in-FL]

1. Attack Venezuela?

:shrug:

[StClone]

I'd attack Canada

:nuke:

[rug]

3. Same logic.

:rofl:

[in_cog_ni_to]

19. No it's not. Hezbollah attacked Israel. Hezbollah is in Lebanon.

Unless Hezbollah is now a country in and of itself.:eyes: Now Israel is suppose to take attacks from Hezbollah because Lebanon claims they aren't connected, yet the Lebanese people voted for Hezbollah members to be a part of the new "democratically elected" Lebanese government. Right. Lebanon and Hezbollah are 2 different entities. Just like the Hamas government and the Hamas terrorist group are different, I suppose.:eyes: These excuses for the Hezbollah and Hamas/Palestinian terrorists is beyond ridiculous. Same logic, my ass.



The 1948 Arab-Israeli War is referred to as the "War of Independence" (Hebrew: מלחמת העצמאות or as the "War of Liberation" (Hebrew: מלחמת השחרור by Israelis. For Palestinians, the war marked the beginning of the events referred to as "The Catastrophe" ("al Nakba," Arabic: النكبة . After the United Nations partitioned the territory of the British Mandate of Palestine into two states, Jewish and Arab, the Arabs refused to accept it and the armies of Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq, supported by others, attacked the newly established State of Israel. It was the first in a series of open wars in the Arab-Israeli conflict. As a result, the region was divided between Israel, Egypt and Transjordan.




The Six-Day War (Hebrew: מלחמת ששת הימים transliteration: Milkhemet Sheshet HaYamim, Arabic: حرب الأيام الستة transliteration: ħarb al-ayam as-sita), also known as the 1967 Arab-Israeli War, Six Days War, or June War, was fought between Israel and the nearby Arab states of Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, and Syria. Egyptian aggression initiated the war as Egypt formed a blockade of Israeli shipping in the Straits of Tiran, removed the UNEF peacekeeping forces from the Sinai, and deployed a large military force in the Sinai on the Israeli border. <1> <2> <3> Responding in an act of defense, Israel launched a preemptive attack against Egypt. <4> <5> <6> <7> Jordan in turn attacked the Israeli cities of Jerusalem and Netanya. <8> <9> At the war's end, Israel had gained control of the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights. The results of the war affect the geopolitics of the region to this day.



War of Attrition
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from 1970 War of Attrition)
Jump to: navigation, search
This is about the Israeli-Egyptian War of Attrition. For the military strategy, see Attrition warfare, for the game theoretical model see War of attrition (game).
Arab-Israeli conflict
1920 riots · Jaffa riots · 1929 riots · 1936-1939 uprising · 1948 Arab-Israeli War · 1956 Suez Crisis · 1967 Six-Day War · War of Attrition · 1973 Yom Kippur War · 1982 Lebanon War · First Intifada · al-Aqsa Intifada · 2006 Arab-Israeli War
The War of Attrition was a limited war fought between Egypt and Israel from 1968 to 1970. It was initiated by Egypt as a way to recapture the Sinai from Israel, which had controlled it since the Six-Day War. The war ended with a cease-fire signed between the countries in 1970 with frontiers at the same place as when the war started.




The Yom Kippur War, Ramadan War or October War (Hebrew: מלחמת יום הכיפורים; transliterated: Milkhemet Yom HaKipurim or מלחמת יום כיפור, Milkhemet Yom Kipur; Arabic: حرب أكتوبر‎; transliterated: ħarb October or حرب تشرين, ħarb Tishrin), also known as the 1973 Arab-Israeli War, was fought from October 6 to October 26, 1973, between Israel and a coalition of Arab nations led by Egypt and Syria. The war began on the day of Yom Kippur with a surprise joint attack by Egypt and Syria. They invaded the Sinai and Golan Heights, respectively, which had been captured by Israel in 1967 during the Six-Day War.<2>

The Egyptians and Syrians advanced during the first 24–48 hours, after which momentum began to swing in Israel's favor. By the second week of the war, the Syrians had been pushed entirely out of the Golan Heights. In the Sinai to the south, the Israelis had struck at the "seam" between two invading Egyptian armies, crossed the Suez Canal (where the old ceasefire line had been), and cut off an entire Egyptian army just as a United Nations cease-fire came into effect.

The war had far-reaching implications for many nations. The Arab world, which had been humiliated by the lopsided defeat of the Egyptian-Syrian-Jordanian alliance during the Six-Day War, felt psychologically vindicated by its string of victories early in the conflict. This vindication paved the way for the peace process that followed, as well as liberalizations such as Egypt's infitah policy. The Camp David Accords, which came soon after, led to normalized relations between Egypt and Israel—the first time any Arab country had recognized the Israeli state. Egypt, which had already been drifting away from the Soviet Union, then left the Soviet sphere of influence almost entirely.


as well as a number of lesser conflicts. A major theme in the history of the conflict has been the refusal of Arab nations to create a Palestinian state that would not involve the destruction of Israel. In the course of the conflict, many Arabs were displaced from what is now Israel, and many Jews were displaced from what is now Algeria, Bahrain, Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, the Palestinian Territories, Syria, Tunisia, and Yemen (see Palestinian refugees and Jewish exodus from Arab lands). The conflict has also been the source of two major Palestinian intifadas (uprisings). Al-Qaeda, a largely Arab organization, has cited the conflict among its justifications for attacks on targets in the West.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab-Israeli_conflict

[rug]

27. I don't know about your ass but the only logic

behind the non-Hezbollah dead is that they're behind Hezbollah.

On reconsideration, you're right. It's not illogic. It's venomous stupidity.

[in_cog_ni_to]

41. They elected Hezbollah to be in THEIR government.

Lebanon cannot deny the connection and neither can you.

[Selatius]

49. Well, tell that to Lebanese Christians

In a country that has 128 seats in Parliament where only 14 belong to the Party of God (Hezbollah), you would willingly allow the rest of the country to be blockaded and have its airports and bridges bombed in retaliation? You are off the deep end.

[in_cog_ni_to]

56. No I'm not. The anti-Israel, forgive anyone who attacks Israel crowd

is off the deep end. Hey! "The Hamas elected by the Palestinians isn't the same Hamas as the terrorist group" EXCUSE seems to work for the Palestinians, why not Hezbollah/Lebanon too? Lebanon and Hezbollah are connected whether the anti-Israel crowd wants to admit it or not. Facts are facts. Hezbollah deserves everything it has coming.

[Selatius]

57. Then Israel needs to leave the rest of Lebanon out of this

Blockading Lebanon and bombing its only international airport TRAPS EVERYBODY WHO DOES NOT SUPPORT HEZBOLLAH!

[in_cog_ni_to]

63. Then LEBANON needs to get RID of Hezbollah! Do ya think?

They've had YEARS to do that and haven't bothered. Instead, they elect them to be a part of their government. MAJORITY OR NOT..... They're still a part of the LEBANESE government. Why aren't the Lebanese people who DON"T SUPPORT HEZBOLLAH rising up and fighting them? There must be a reason. They just let them sit on the border harassing Israel, but, of course, that's Israel's fault too.

[Selatius]

71. Maybe because they just concluded their last civil war?

You honestly think they were seriously interested in launching the 2nd Lebanese Civil War after the first one was just recently concluded just to get rid of Hezbollah? Do you honestly think they want to see militias clashing all over again on the streets of Beirut like it's 1982 again with all the bombed out and cratered buildings littering the lansdcape? Has it even occurred to you that they were so tired of war that they'd opted to let them run in the elections in peace rather than repeat the bloodshed of the 1980s again?

[LincolnMcGrath]

77. Have we cleared out all of our racist idiots here in the USA?

Didn't think so.

The whole "Israel can do no wrong" crowd needs to step back and examine the last 60 years.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Redstone]

86. That was unfair to you. You have not said ANYTHING racist.

You've confined your remarks to political reality, and contributed greatly to the discussion.

Anyone who throws the "racist" argument at you is disingenuous, and has not really read your posts.

Redstone

[LincolnMcGrath]

101. Who threw the race card?

[Redstone]

102. Several people. One even has it in the subject line.

And I thinnk it's uncalled-for in this poster's case. He's arguing political reality, not race. Nor religion.

Redstone

[LincolnMcGrath]

105. Didn't stop her/him from calling me an asshole did it?

Was that called for?

[Redstone]

110. I didn't see that. I was just answering your question.

Redstone

[Zhade]

121. I saved the thread earlier - that term was used.

NT!

[Zhade]

120. No, s/he just called the poster an asshole.

S/he is also advocating collective punishment against the Lebanese people, which is pretty fucked-up in its own right.

[LincolnMcGrath]

99. When you come back down to earth,

Show me were I called you anything, skippy.

You implied that a country has an obligation to clean out it's miscreants. WHY? We haven't, and we are currently being led by a miscreant. Should China bomb us into freedom?


Christ, you played the race card and the anti-semite card in one breath.

[The Magistrate]

130. The Government Of A State, Mr. McGrath

Is responsible for the violent acts of any armed body quartered on its soil against another state. It is its duty to prevent such acts, and it is liable for them if it does not do so. This may be unpleasant to contemplate, but it is a well established principle of international relations. Hezbolah, by the way, was directed six years ago to disarm by the Security Council of the United Nations, and has not complied.

[LincolnMcGrath]

148. UN Resolutions?

Israel defies UN vote demanding end to Arafat siege

Israel defies UN over 'security fence'


the UN?

[Name removed]

70. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[progressivebydesign]

132. The lebanese did not elect Hezbollah.. are you thinking of Hamas?

Because the entire country of lebabon is not run by hezbollah.. it's a group on the fringe of lebabon, from what I've read today, that Lebanon cannot control. Kinda like the aryan nation in america and other domestic terror groups..

[sir_captain]

136. Hezbollah does have a number of seats in the government

a smallish number to be sure, but they are a "legitimate" political entity in Lebanon--obviously this is not the same thing as Hamas being the controlling legal power among the Palestinians.

[Warren DeMontague]

128. Stop fucking up people's indignant narratives with pesky facts. nt

[readmoreoften]

4. You win. /nt

[Critters2]

6. Let's see...Saudi Arabs fly planes into buildings,

so we attack Iraq.

So, yep, your response makes as much sense as anything else the BFEE might do.

[Redstone]

21. Does answer my question, doesn't it? I'd bet he's right.

Redstone

[Redstone]

18. I guess we would, based on our track record. Well said.

Redstone

[leftchick]

32. Iceland!

It is disappearing anyway.

[sir_captain]

2. Agreed

[acmavm]

5. Well, judging from what we did to Iraq with NO provocation I guess we'd

try to kill off as much of the civilian population as possible.

And the Israeli's do the same every time some group farts. I'm not making light of the kidnapped military personnel but face it folks, that's what military personnel do. The enlist and they take their chances.

The monstrous murder of innocent civilians on a beach, or the bombing of the Palistinian's power station in order to cause a humanitarian crisis is a major case of punishing the wrong people.

[sir_captain]

11. Two points

Israelis don't enlist. They are conscripted.

Having missiles shot at you is not quite the same thing as farting.

I'm not particularly into the Israeli response, but you are being disingenuous in your characterization of the events.

[acmavm]

31. No, I am not. Israel has been getting away with crimes against humanity

for decades. They have totally displaced the Palestinian people, taken what land they want and left the waterless dregs to them, killed off their crops and trees, bulldozed down whole villages, killed foreign peace workers, and that's just for starters.

Israel has never tried to deal honestly with the Palestinians. Never. Israel never deals honestly with anyone, include the United States. Going back to the Six Day War and the USS Independence to the bombing of the power plant that was insured by the United States. Israel has had spies in our government, they have AIPAC now. We do not have a symbiotic relationship with Israel. It is a one-way affair that profits only Israel by funneling them money and armaments.

And they have never left any territory contrary to the rumors that people like to spread. There have always been illegal settlements that were defended by the Israeli people and the Israeli government.

And for every one Israeli who has died, five times as many Palestinians are killed. The one of the latest crimes was the threat to kill the Palestinian leadership over the kidnapping of one soldier.

I don't care if they enlist or are conscripted. Doesn't make a damn bit of difference. Military is military.

The only 'ally' that Israel has left is this administration. The rest of the world has grown tired of the lack of cooperation when it comes to the I/P issue. And a lot of eyes are being opened in this country as well.

[in_cog_ni_to]

45. Why does Israel have that land? Did they just invade and take it?

they did not. They took it AFTER THEY WERE INVADED. I think we should give the Navajos their land back.:eyes:
The Palestinians are not innocent in this. They chose to elect HAMAS...a TERRORIST GROUP to lead their government. Israel's suppose to embrace that? Of course they are because, because, because THEY'RE ISRAEL.


The 1948 Arab-Israeli War is referred to as the "War of Independence" (Hebrew: מלחמת העצמאות or as the "War of Liberation" (Hebrew: מלחמת השחרור by Israelis. For Palestinians, the war marked the beginning of the events referred to as "The Catastrophe" ("al Nakba," Arabic: النكبة . After the United Nations partitioned the territory of the British Mandate of Palestine into two states, Jewish and Arab, the Arabs refused to accept it and the armies of Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq, supported by others, attacked the newly established State of Israel. It was the first in a series of open wars in the Arab-Israeli conflict. As a result, the region was divided between Israel, Egypt and Transjordan.




The Six-Day War (Hebrew: מלחמת ששת הימים transliteration: Milkhemet Sheshet HaYamim, Arabic: حرب الأيام الستة transliteration: ħarb al-ayam as-sita), also known as the 1967 Arab-Israeli War, Six Days War, or June War, was fought between Israel and the nearby Arab states of Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, and Syria. Egyptian aggression initiated the war as Egypt formed a blockade of Israeli shipping in the Straits of Tiran, removed the UNEF peacekeeping forces from the Sinai, and deployed a large military force in the Sinai on the Israeli border. <1> <2> <3> Responding in an act of defense, Israel launched a preemptive attack against Egypt. <4> <5> <6> <7> Jordan in turn attacked the Israeli cities of Jerusalem and Netanya. <8> <9> At the war's end, Israel had gained control of the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights. The results of the war affect the geopolitics of the region to this day.



War of Attrition
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from 1970 War of Attrition)
Jump to: navigation, search
This is about the Israeli-Egyptian War of Attrition. For the military strategy, see Attrition warfare, for the game theoretical model see War of attrition (game).
Arab-Israeli conflict
1920 riots · Jaffa riots · 1929 riots · 1936-1939 uprising · 1948 Arab-Israeli War · 1956 Suez Crisis · 1967 Six-Day War · War of Attrition · 1973 Yom Kippur War · 1982 Lebanon War · First Intifada · al-Aqsa Intifada · 2006 Arab-Israeli War
The War of Attrition was a limited war fought between Egypt and Israel from 1968 to 1970. It was initiated by Egypt as a way to recapture the Sinai from Israel, which had controlled it since the Six-Day War. The war ended with a cease-fire signed between the countries in 1970 with frontiers at the same place as when the war started.




The Yom Kippur War, Ramadan War or October War (Hebrew: מלחמת יום הכיפורים; transliterated: Milkhemet Yom HaKipurim or מלחמת יום כיפור, Milkhemet Yom Kipur; Arabic: حرب أكتوبر‎; transliterated: ħarb October or حرب تشرين, ħarb Tishrin), also known as the 1973 Arab-Israeli War, was fought from October 6 to October 26, 1973, between Israel and a coalition of Arab nations led by Egypt and Syria. The war began on the day of Yom Kippur with a surprise joint attack by Egypt and Syria. They invaded the Sinai and Golan Heights, respectively, which had been captured by Israel in 1967 during the Six-Day War.<2>

The Egyptians and Syrians advanced during the first 24–48 hours, after which momentum began to swing in Israel's favor. By the second week of the war, the Syrians had been pushed entirely out of the Golan Heights. In the Sinai to the south, the Israelis had struck at the "seam" between two invading Egyptian armies, crossed the Suez Canal (where the old ceasefire line had been), and cut off an entire Egyptian army just as a United Nations cease-fire came into effect.

The war had far-reaching implications for many nations. The Arab world, which had been humiliated by the lopsided defeat of the Egyptian-Syrian-Jordanian alliance during the Six-Day War, felt psychologically vindicated by its string of victories early in the conflict. This vindication paved the way for the peace process that followed, as well as liberalizations such as Egypt's infitah policy. The Camp David Accords, which came soon after, led to normalized relations between Egypt and Israel—the first time any Arab country had recognized the Israeli state. Egypt, which had already been drifting away from the Soviet Union, then left the Soviet sphere of influence almost entirely.


as well as a number of lesser conflicts. A major theme in the history of the conflict has been the refusal of Arab nations to create a Palestinian state that would not involve the destruction of Israel. In the course of the conflict, many Arabs were displaced from what is now Israel, and many Jews were displaced from what is now Algeria, Bahrain, Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, the Palestinian Territories, Syria, Tunisia, and Yemen (see Palestinian refugees and Jewish exodus from Arab lands). The conflict has also been the source of two major Palestinian intifadas (uprisings). Al-Qaeda, a largely Arab organization, has cited the conflict among its justifications for attacks on targets in the West.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab-Israeli_conflict

[acmavm]

53. Uh yep. In 1948. Dayan, Sharon, & crew were derided as war criminals.

The British may have thought it was a great idea, but the one constant from Israel's founding to this day is it's total lack of cooperation and restraint.

[malaise]

95. Couldn't say it better n/t

[Ringo84]

7. Attack Iraq (nt)

To be serious though, I think I understand what you're saying.
Ringo

[ThoughtCriminal]

8. Unless

The reaction is EXACTLY what you want to happen.

[theanarch]

9. well, it seems obvious...

...that if we were doing to Mexicans in a US-occupied Mexico what Israel is doing to Palestinians in the occupied territories, then Mexicans would be quite justified in firing rockets into Texas, Arizona, California, etc.

[gratuitous]

10. Maybe they're just defending themselves?

After all, the Israelis were throwing all kinds of ordinance into civilian-populated areas in their madness to recover their captured soldiers. Collective reprisals being against the rules of civilized warfare and the Geneva Conventions, is there a case to be made that the folks in Gaza and Lebanon were simply defending their civilian populations that were being shelled by a foreign power?

Violence and terror are no way to resolve differences, yet despite their proven record of failure, they're the first choice of so many devotees to the Myth of Redemptive Violence.

[Terran1212]

15. Israel killed scores of Palestinians before Hamas withdrew from

the ceasefire. No one reported that. The Palestinians didn't bomb the Israeli airport or burn down the Knesset in response to ITS people being kidnapped and killed.

Only after the Israelis shelled a beach did they finally end the ceasefire.

But again it's the victim Israel just defending herself.

Total Bullshit.

[ComerPerro]

124. Even after Irsrael started bombing, even today, I still heard

reporters reffering to Irsrael's bombing as "defending itself" or some other crap, but even after bombings, now that its a war, rockets fired into Israel are described as "terrorism"

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Master Mahon]

12. Well

If we were killing Mexican citizens on a regular basis.
Bulldozing their houses, and setting up walls imprisoning them,
cutting off their funds and food, trying to overthrow their democratically elected gov't. (Which lately it seems we are in fact trying to do)
Would we really be all that surprised if the lobbed a few our way??
Although our leader is a MORON, wouldn't you see that as the perfect setup for wiping them off the face of the earth??
IMHO

[flvegan]

13. We'd suggest another oil-rich country was behind it.

We'd attack, regardless...oh, I mean we'd engage in a preemptive strike. Then, we'd lie our asses off about it, plunder their resources, then let Halliburton rebuild at 20x the cost another bidder might do it for.

The question isn't what would we do. It's what book would shitbox be reading to some classroom of kids while these rockets were blowing up the southwestern states? I'd go with a good, American standby. Dr. Seuss, maybe.

[Lost-in-FL]

16. Well, Venezuela is an oil rich country

O8)

[Terran1212]

14. 8 people have been killed in the past 5 years of those rockets

Less than Israel kills in one air strike.

Do you think Cuba or Nicaragua should bomb our cities and destroy our government? We're giving amnesty to people who terrorized those countries in far worse ways than hezbollah ever did anything.

[Pavulon]

20. If I shoot a gun at you

and miss, is that still a threat?

[Terran1212]

26. Ok, but don't go and destroy my entire country in response

And claim self-defense when you KNOW that ill just create more violence.

Israel wants to destroy enemy opposition and control Gaza once more. This has NOTHING to do with self-defense in that anyone can tell you it will make Israel less safe.

It is committing war crimes and like in Nuremburg it will recieve its due if the law is carried out.

I wonder what you think about the near daily killing or kidnapping of Palestinians by the IDF (this is long before they kidnapped the soldier that supposedly started all this). Don't you think the Palestinians should have the same right of self-defense? At least the attacks on IDF by Hamas and Hezbollah were against the army. IDF has responded by destroying Lebanese and Palestinian civilias and infrastructure.

[slackmaster]

34. Yes, and if it crosses over my property it's also trespassing

If you shoot at me and miss, I will shoot back with overwhelming force.



And I will not miss.

[DistressedAmerican]

43. Cue The Sounds Of Banjos And Pigs Squealing In The Distance...

:rofl:

[slackmaster]

47. Hey, I do live in extreme Southern California

:D

[DistressedAmerican]

25. Thank You. The Rockets Are A Joke.

Not to mention that the large barrage we have seen has come AFTER the Israeli attacks on Lebanon. Prior to that it was individual and highly ineffective shots across the bow. A single suicide bomber on a single bus is more deadly than all of the rockets that have been fired to date. Why all the hype of the rockets? A thinly veiled justification for the invasion?

These weapons are little more than propoganda from Hezbolla.

If anything, this action has increased the number of these nearly useless rockets flying into Israel. Not the other way around.

[Poll_Blind]

22. Understand, Redstone, that there few if any posters at DU who...

...believe that Israel should just soak up the Quassams, nomatter how inelegant and weak their construction and firepower may be. However, many people, including myself, have very serious problems with Israel's wildly-disproportional response to the situation it was dealing with. Outright lying in a number of cases, like the consistent and repeated use of torture even after it was outlawed by the Israeli Supreme Court in, oh, 1999, I believe or, more recently, the bald-faced lie that their 155mm howitzer shell had nothing to do with the deaths of Gazan beachgoers when they lobbed 5 other 155mm shells along the same 250-meter stretch of beach at the same time- none of these things do any more to endear a conservative government to our hearts. There are many, many examples prior to the kidnapping of legislators, destruction of civilian infrastructure, self-admitted threat and execution of collective punishment- the list goes on and on.

  The question is not what would we do- we'd defend ourselves. A better question is what would we not do in the process- namely openly threaten, harm and kill civilians, legislators and attack and destry civilian infrastructures including power generators for civilian populations, generally make war or military actions uncontroversially defined as "acts of aggression" and/or war on other nations unconnected to the captured soldier they claim this whole mess is about.

PB

[in_cog_ni_to]

30. Israel's wildly-disproportional respon? Sit by and be attacked by a

group who doesn't want you to exist? Give 'em an inch, they take a mile. Israel cannot tolerate attacks by Hezbollah.


The 1948 Arab-Israeli War is referred to as the "War of Independence" (Hebrew: מלחמת העצמאות or as the "War of Liberation" (Hebrew: מלחמת השחרור by Israelis. For Palestinians, the war marked the beginning of the events referred to as "The Catastrophe" ("al Nakba," Arabic: النكبة . After the United Nations partitioned the territory of the British Mandate of Palestine into two states, Jewish and Arab, the Arabs refused to accept it and the armies of Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq, supported by others, attacked the newly established State of Israel. It was the first in a series of open wars in the Arab-Israeli conflict. As a result, the region was divided between Israel, Egypt and Transjordan.




The Six-Day War (Hebrew: מלחמת ששת הימים transliteration: Milkhemet Sheshet HaYamim, Arabic: حرب الأيام الستة transliteration: ħarb al-ayam as-sita), also known as the 1967 Arab-Israeli War, Six Days War, or June War, was fought between Israel and the nearby Arab states of Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, and Syria. Egyptian aggression initiated the war as Egypt formed a blockade of Israeli shipping in the Straits of Tiran, removed the UNEF peacekeeping forces from the Sinai, and deployed a large military force in the Sinai on the Israeli border. <1> <2> <3> Responding in an act of defense, Israel launched a preemptive attack against Egypt. <4> <5> <6> <7> Jordan in turn attacked the Israeli cities of Jerusalem and Netanya. <8> <9> At the war's end, Israel had gained control of the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights. The results of the war affect the geopolitics of the region to this day.



War of Attrition
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from 1970 War of Attrition)
Jump to: navigation, search
This is about the Israeli-Egyptian War of Attrition. For the military strategy, see Attrition warfare, for the game theoretical model see War of attrition (game).
Arab-Israeli conflict
1920 riots · Jaffa riots · 1929 riots · 1936-1939 uprising · 1948 Arab-Israeli War · 1956 Suez Crisis · 1967 Six-Day War · War of Attrition · 1973 Yom Kippur War · 1982 Lebanon War · First Intifada · al-Aqsa Intifada · 2006 Arab-Israeli War
The War of Attrition was a limited war fought between Egypt and Israel from 1968 to 1970. It was initiated by Egypt as a way to recapture the Sinai from Israel, which had controlled it since the Six-Day War. The war ended with a cease-fire signed between the countries in 1970 with frontiers at the same place as when the war started.




The Yom Kippur War, Ramadan War or October War (Hebrew: מלחמת יום הכיפורים; transliterated: Milkhemet Yom HaKipurim or מלחמת יום כיפור, Milkhemet Yom Kipur; Arabic: حرب أكتوبر‎; transliterated: ħarb October or حرب تشرين, ħarb Tishrin), also known as the 1973 Arab-Israeli War, was fought from October 6 to October 26, 1973, between Israel and a coalition of Arab nations led by Egypt and Syria. The war began on the day of Yom Kippur with a surprise joint attack by Egypt and Syria. They invaded the Sinai and Golan Heights, respectively, which had been captured by Israel in 1967 during the Six-Day War.<2>

The Egyptians and Syrians advanced during the first 24–48 hours, after which momentum began to swing in Israel's favor. By the second week of the war, the Syrians had been pushed entirely out of the Golan Heights. In the Sinai to the south, the Israelis had struck at the "seam" between two invading Egyptian armies, crossed the Suez Canal (where the old ceasefire line had been), and cut off an entire Egyptian army just as a United Nations cease-fire came into effect.

The war had far-reaching implications for many nations. The Arab world, which had been humiliated by the lopsided defeat of the Egyptian-Syrian-Jordanian alliance during the Six-Day War, felt psychologically vindicated by its string of victories early in the conflict. This vindication paved the way for the peace process that followed, as well as liberalizations such as Egypt's infitah policy. The Camp David Accords, which came soon after, led to normalized relations between Egypt and Israel—the first time any Arab country had recognized the Israeli state. Egypt, which had already been drifting away from the Soviet Union, then left the Soviet sphere of influence almost entirely.


as well as a number of lesser conflicts. A major theme in the history of the conflict has been the refusal of Arab nations to create a Palestinian state that would not involve the destruction of Israel. In the course of the conflict, many Arabs were displaced from what is now Israel, and many Jews were displaced from what is now Algeria, Bahrain, Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, the Palestinian Territories, Syria, Tunisia, and Yemen (see Palestinian refugees and Jewish exodus from Arab lands). The conflict has also been the source of two major Palestinian intifadas (uprisings). Al-Qaeda, a largely Arab organization, has cited the conflict among its justifications for attacks on targets in the West.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab-Israeli_conflict

[burythehatchet]

55. Give 'em an inch, they take a mile

Simply one of the most dispicable phrases that Israel apologists use.

Like you're any better than "them"

[in_cog_ni_to]

61. LOL.....touched a nerve on a Israel hater, eh? Too bad.

Hezbollah started this shit, not Israel. Israel pulled out of Gaza and look where it got them. EXACTLY where everyone with a BRAIN knew it would get them. NOWHERE. MORE war. These people don't WANT PEACE. They want Israel DESTROYED and apparently, a lot of people on this board do too. The hatred toward Israel is sickening.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[in_cog_ni_to]

75. Oh, this goes waaaay beyond hating policy at this point.

People who support Hezbollah and Lebanon in this conflict are on the Hate Israel side of the issue. That's all there is to it. Policy has nothing to do with this. YES! Hezbollah started this. They bombed Israel and kidnapped their soldiers and are expected to NOT respond. That's just ridiculous. Who has their head up their colon? It's not me. Once again, the terrorists out to destroy Israel win the hearts and minds of DUers. it's just sickening.

[burythehatchet]

84. Whatever happened with the Palestinean family that was

blown up on the beach while sunbathing a couple weeks ago? Oh yeah, the military cleared itself of any culpability

[in_cog_ni_to]

89. Oh, I don't know. What happened to the Israeli family blown up on the bus

in Israel? Or all the kids blown up at the disco? Or the families blown up in the Israeli market? Oh yeah, the poor Hamas/Palestinians are are oppressed by big bad Israel so THAT doesn't matter.

[burythehatchet]

96. You mean it didn't "start" with the kidnapping?

now you got me confused with your debate skills.

[in_cog_ni_to]

100. Here Mr. super debater. Let me refresh your memory.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1627693&mesg_id=1628399

[Jazzgirl]

113. Sounds kinda like "if you're against me....

you're for the terrorists".

:eyes:

[progressivebydesign]

141. Why aren't you over in Israel fighting for her? n/t

[Amonester]

23. Would *we* do the same *things* many Iraqi insurgents do

after *we* blow-up their houses from the air with no 'legit' reason?

Or worse?

[enigmacat]

24. False analogy

Palestine and Lebanon DID NOT fire rockets into Israel. It was the terrorist factions who did. And, if you think that terrorists are controllable by anyone, even government bodies, you obviously do not understand the meaning of the word "terrorist."
One soldier's life=Dozens of innocent lives, and IDF soldier's lives? Does this actually seem logical to anyone? Does anyone really believe that this war, which it is, is about one soldier, anyway?
I do agree with your intimated assertion that the US would probably do the same thing or worse if a foreign body bombed our country. That doesn't make it sensible. Look at the Israeli situation. Is it improving?
Here is a question for you: Would you think it was acceptable for someone you loved to be killed by Israel, in the course of "searching" for a soldier? Is that just collateral damage?
This whole thing, and the hypocrisy and cowardice of the world governing bodies, and individuals as well, sickens me to the core.

[Terran1212]

29. They're using the excuse of the kidnapped soldier to

destroy the Hamas government and terminate Hezbollah. What they're doing is illegal, not an acceptable act of self defense at all.

[in_cog_ni_to]

40. Hamas and Hezbollah need to be terminated.

They've been terrorizing Israel since its existence. Hezbollah started this, not Israel....as usual.

[Terran1212]

44. Why don't you just go ahead and remove that peace sign?

You seem to be belligerently hawkish, wanting to destroy two democratically elected bodies and their militant wings which were crafted under occupation.

Terrorizing Israel since its existence? The entire Palestinian population is held under siege. Now Lebanon will be the same way. Israel is fine. Israel is not a victim, that's not even logical to say. Want to spend a day on a beach resorts or stroll tel aviv? Fine. Try to do the same thing in Gaza? Oh wait, there's a damn tank and Apache strafing the city can't do that!

[in_cog_ni_to]

48. Oh bullshit. I am so sick of the anti-Israel, pro-poor Palestinian

crap on this board. Why does Israel have such a large military? Could it possibly be because they were attacked over and over and over by these people? Your excuses for the Hamas and Hezbollah are ridiculous.


The 1948 Arab-Israeli War is referred to as the "War of Independence" (Hebrew: מלחמת העצמאות or as the "War of Liberation" (Hebrew: מלחמת השחרור by Israelis. For Palestinians, the war marked the beginning of the events referred to as "The Catastrophe" ("al Nakba," Arabic: النكبة . After the United Nations partitioned the territory of the British Mandate of Palestine into two states, Jewish and Arab, the Arabs refused to accept it and the armies of Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq, supported by others, attacked the newly established State of Israel. It was the first in a series of open wars in the Arab-Israeli conflict. As a result, the region was divided between Israel, Egypt and Transjordan.




The Six-Day War (Hebrew: מלחמת ששת הימים transliteration: Milkhemet Sheshet HaYamim, Arabic: حرب الأيام الستة transliteration: ħarb al-ayam as-sita), also known as the 1967 Arab-Israeli War, Six Days War, or June War, was fought between Israel and the nearby Arab states of Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, and Syria. Egyptian aggression initiated the war as Egypt formed a blockade of Israeli shipping in the Straits of Tiran, removed the UNEF peacekeeping forces from the Sinai, and deployed a large military force in the Sinai on the Israeli border. <1> <2> <3> Responding in an act of defense, Israel launched a preemptive attack against Egypt. <4> <5> <6> <7> Jordan in turn attacked the Israeli cities of Jerusalem and Netanya. <8> <9> At the war's end, Israel had gained control of the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights. The results of the war affect the geopolitics of the region to this day.



War of Attrition
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from 1970 War of Attrition)
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This is about the Israeli-Egyptian War of Attrition. For the military strategy, see Attrition warfare, for the game theoretical model see War of attrition (game).
Arab-Israeli conflict
1920 riots · Jaffa riots · 1929 riots · 1936-1939 uprising · 1948 Arab-Israeli War · 1956 Suez Crisis · 1967 Six-Day War · War of Attrition · 1973 Yom Kippur War · 1982 Lebanon War · First Intifada · al-Aqsa Intifada · 2006 Arab-Israeli War
The War of Attrition was a limited war fought between Egypt and Israel from 1968 to 1970. It was initiated by Egypt as a way to recapture the Sinai from Israel, which had controlled it since the Six-Day War. The war ended with a cease-fire signed between the countries in 1970 with frontiers at the same place as when the war started.




The Yom Kippur War, Ramadan War or October War (Hebrew: מלחמת יום הכיפורים; transliterated: Milkhemet Yom HaKipurim or מלחמת יום כיפור, Milkhemet Yom Kipur; Arabic: حرب أكتوبر‎; transliterated: ħarb October or حرب تشرين, ħarb Tishrin), also known as the 1973 Arab-Israeli War, was fought from October 6 to October 26, 1973, between Israel and a coalition of Arab nations led by Egypt and Syria. The war began on the day of Yom Kippur with a surprise joint attack by Egypt and Syria. They invaded the Sinai and Golan Heights, respectively, which had been captured by Israel in 1967 during the Six-Day War.<2>

The Egyptians and Syrians advanced during the first 24–48 hours, after which momentum began to swing in Israel's favor. By the second week of the war, the Syrians had been pushed entirely out of the Golan Heights. In the Sinai to the south, the Israelis had struck at the "seam" between two invading Egyptian armies, crossed the Suez Canal (where the old ceasefire line had been), and cut off an entire Egyptian army just as a United Nations cease-fire came into effect.

The war had far-reaching implications for many nations. The Arab world, which had been humiliated by the lopsided defeat of the Egyptian-Syrian-Jordanian alliance during the Six-Day War, felt psychologically vindicated by its string of victories early in the conflict. This vindication paved the way for the peace process that followed, as well as liberalizations such as Egypt's infitah policy. The Camp David Accords, which came soon after, led to normalized relations between Egypt and Israel—the first time any Arab country had recognized the Israeli state. Egypt, which had already been drifting away from the Soviet Union, then left the Soviet sphere of influence almost entirely.


as well as a number of lesser conflicts. A major theme in the history of the conflict has been the refusal of Arab nations to create a Palestinian state that would not involve the destruction of Israel. In the course of the conflict, many Arabs were displaced from what is now Israel, and many Jews were displaced from what is now Algeria, Bahrain, Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, the Palestinian Territories, Syria, Tunisia, and Yemen (see Palestinian refugees and Jewish exodus from Arab lands). The conflict has also been the source of two major Palestinian intifadas (uprisings). Al-Qaeda, a largely Arab organization, has cited the conflict among its justifications for attacks on targets in the West.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab-Israeli_conflict

[burythehatchet]

59. Really?

You hate that crap? Does it ever cross your mind to ponder the fact so many people, who agree with you on so many issues, feel that way? Are we all ignorant? Are we all anti-semites? No, dude, it is precisely your attitude that is the biggest obstacle to peace. get rid of that fucking avatar.

[in_cog_ni_to]

68. PEACE IN ISRAEL.

If you don't like my avatar, tough shit. You support the Palestinians, Hamas, and Hezbollah over the ONLY DEMOCRATIC nation in that region. That makes a LOT of sense. A DEMOCRATIC country that has never seen PEACE because of the very people YOU and your Israel hating cohorts support. Arafat had his chance at PEACE and chose to thumb his nose at Clinton who spent the better part of his administraion trying to bring PEACE to the region. Arafat didn't want PEACE and here we are...in ANOTHER FUCKING WAR THAT THEY,the terrorists, STARTED and YOU support it, YOU defend them.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madmark]

69. if you're joe civilian in lebanon; and you just received collateral

damage today, ie. relative killed by Israeli bombing of Airport or road, aren't you now an enemy of Israel on an emotional level independent of all the politics you just went over. Every time a hezbollah, hamas, islamic jihad, or any other terrorist group provokes Israel to strike at neighbors' civilians thats what you get, more new enemies.

[in_cog_ni_to]

83. Right. I wonder how the Israeli joe civilians will feel after Hezbollah's

attacks on them?

[madmark]

117. i would think that any israelis who's relatives were killed by hezbollah

would be an enemy of hezbollah, and not an enemy of non-hezbollah lebanese. And they would not want to be creating enemies among non-hezbollah lebanese? How does bombing the beruit airport or lebanese roads kill hezbollah instead of harming non hezbollah lebanese? Why not just bomb and kill hezbollah directly instead? Aren't israeli and lebanese civilians equally non-combatants and why would one have sympathy for one and not the other?

[progressivebydesign]

133. i think they'd feel better than the suburban bombing in lebanon..

I hear the hezbola rocket killed one person.. unlike levelling an airport, and some suburbs. So.. I guess it okay to bomb the holey fuck out of innocent civilians because a soldier was kidnapped? Is that how it works? Oh. yeah.. I forgot, that's how Bush does it in Iraq. Never mind.

[Fleshdancer]

60. but both Hamas and Hezbollah were created in the 80's

This post is not meant to defend terrorist activities, only to point out that they haven't been terrorizing Israel since its existence.


Hamas:

Created in 1987 by Shaikh Ahmed Yassin of the Gaza wing of the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas is known chiefly for its suicide bombings <4> and other attacks directed against Israeli civilians, as well as military and security forces targets. Hamas' charter (written in 1988 and still in force) calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamic state in the area that is now Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip.<5>

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas


Hezbollah:

Hezbollah - or the Party of God - is a powerful political and military organisation of Shia Muslims in Lebanon.
It emerged with financial backing from Iran in the early 1980s and began a struggle to drive Israeli troops from Lebanon.

source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4314423.stm

[in_cog_ni_to]

93. OK. They've been terrorizing Israel since 1987 and 1980. n/t

[High Plains]

118. And what has Israel been doing? Poor, defenseless, little Israel.

You know, the one that killed 50 civilians in Lebanon today.

You know, the one that that killed how many, 80? civilians in Gaza in the last few days.

You know, the one that is destroying the civilian infrastructure of Gaza and Lebanaon.

You know, the one with the atomic bombs.

You know, the one that has jailed thousands of Palestinians and Lebanese for years.

I don't hate Israel. I hate its hateful, brutal, jackbooted policies that have only encouraged the growth of the very groups you rail about. And I hate the zionist apologists who enable them.

[cali]

35. Sorry, that's incorrect

in both cases. Don't get me wrong, I think Israel's responses in both cases are disproportional to the offense, and wildly counter effective, but these aren't just splinter groups. H'zbollah controls the southern border (no Lebaneses troops on the border), it has 23 seats in the Parliament and several ministry level positions.

[in_cog_ni_to]

37. Palestinians elected Hamas to lead their Governmemnt and the Lebanese

elected the Hezbollah to be a part of theirs. Bullshit they aren't the same. That's a BOGUS argument and a terrible one at that. Hezbollah wanted to get their war on...so here it is. I hope they enjoy it.

[Selatius]

42. Most Lebanese DIDN'T vote for Hezbollah

The Party of God ONLY holds 14 seats in Parliament, and they're a minority in the current Lebanese cabinet. The government is predominantly made up of members of the Future Movement, whose leader Hariri was assassinated, probably by the Syrians.

[Redstone]

94. Most Americans DIDN'T vote for Bush, either. but we have to live with him.

Redstone

[Terran1212]

46. To quote the Daily Show

Maybe the elected Hamas has something to do with "that giant fence penning them in like animals"

[in_cog_ni_to]

52. Or could it be because they hate Israel so much

they "won't stop until the blood of every Jewish man, woman and child flows through the streets of Israel and into the sea? and HAMAS is the group who wants to do it? Nah. The Palestinians LOVE the Jews.:eyes:

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[in_cog_ni_to]

98. No I'm not a racist. YOU just want to think I am because I support Israel

and DETEST the people who attack her on a constant basis.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[in_cog_ni_to]

107. screw you. I suggest YOU grow up

and look where the fault lies in this damn mess. It's NOT Israel's fault. Hezbollah is at fault.

[progressivebydesign]

138. Hell if generations of your family lived in pens you'd feel differently

I have never come down on either side of the whole israel/palestian thing.. EXCEPT.. I still find it unbelievable that Israel gets fancy hotels and discos and beach resorts and trendy stores, while the palestinians are penned in little settlements and have their houses and camps regularly bulldozed. Ya think that PERHAPS that would cause.. I don't know.. some ANGER on their part? And since they cannot have a miltary, how exactly do you think they would try to defend themselve or vent their anger? Every cruel suicide bombing they've done is wrong.. but it does not make someone anti-Jew because they can understand WHY, in the history of man, the oppressed turn to that type of violence. Everything is so black and white with some people... if you try to understand a situation, suddenly you're a racist, or anti-semitic. That's a total cop-out.

[progressivebydesign]

134. Jeez. they DID NOT! Lebanon did not elect them to run Lebanon!

why are you spreading this lie here tonight? Get it straight.. Hamas was voted in by the palestinians as the controlling party.. Hezbola candidates were elected in a few spots.. they do NOT run the govt. sheesh.

[cigsandcoffee]

135. I agree. It's like Sinn Fein and the IRA

Not as many folks would try to justify separating those two, but have no problems doing so in the case of Hezbolla and Hamas.

[Selatius]

28. The Israeli response should not include bombing civilian infrastructure

I would've supported commando raids into southern Lebanon to attack Hezbollah guerrillas in retaliation, but that's not the same as ordering Israeli forces to bomb civilian infrastructure like the airport or bridges and ordering the naval blockade the Lebanese coast.

[moondust]

50. Supply routes in. Escape routes out. n/t

[Selatius]

54. True, but deference must also be given to civilian human life

There are dozens of dead Lebanese civilians now on top of the original two Jewish civilians who died.

[slackmaster]

33. I vote for "Invade Canada"

It's long overdue.

:nuke:

[Fleshdancer]

36. Hezbollah's deputy leader denied its fighters fired on Haifa

Quick question - I'll ask in this thread since I don't think it warrants its own thread, but is this a normal MO of Hezbollah? To attack but then to deny the attack or is there reason to believe they really didn't fire on Haifa?

BTW, what I put in the subject line comes from this AP article:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060713/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel;_ylt=AnSdw9HcCVTLSu5avZwkLaELewgF;_ylu=X3oDMTBjMHVqMTQ4BHNlYwN5bnN1YmNhdA--

On edit: how do I clean up the link?

[NoodleyAppendage]

38. Hard lesson: Just because your fired upon by wimpy rocket, doesn't mean...

...you can bomb the shit out a sovereign nation and destabilize the region.

Hard lesson: Prior to 1946, Israel was not Jewish land for close to 1000 years. You might expect that the inhabitants of that land, which was taken from them to create the nation of Israel, might be pissed about it.

J

[Rex]

39. I'd find out who the mofo is and go after them.

Imagine walking down the street and hearing the screaming roar of fighter jets, so low and loud it buzzes your brain...then the house next to yours blows up in a huge fireball. You get thrown 30 feet and have a concussion, but the real question is what do you plan to do about the bastards that bombed your neighbors house? I'd be out for revenge.

[Balbus]

51. You'd think they'd have learned that lesson a long time ago.

Some people never learn, though.

[shance]

58. Redstone - guess who is providing Israel with those rockets?

Free Weapons to Israel

The U.S. also gives Israel weapons and ammunition as part of the Excess Defense Articles (EDA) program, providing these articles completely free of charge. Between 1994-2001 the U.S. provided many weapons through this program, including:

64,744 M-16A1 rifles
2,469 M-204 grenade launchers
1,500 M-2 .50 caliber machine guns
.30 caliber, .50 caliber, and 20mm ammunition

U.S. Weapons in the Israeli Arsenal(Selected list):

(Weapon,
Quantity
Manufacturer,
Cost Per Unit)

Fighter Planes
F-4E Phantom
50
Boeing
$18.4 million

F-15 Eagle
98
Boeing (originally McDonnell Douglas)
$38 million

F-16 Fighting Falcon
237
Lockheed Martin
$34.3 million

Helicopters

AH-64 Apache Attack
42
Boeing
$14.5 million

Cobra Attack
57
Bell Textron
$10.7 million

CH-53D Sea Stallion
38
Sikorsky

Blackhawk
25
Sikorsky
$11 million

Missiles

AGM 65 Maverick
Raytheon
$17,000-$110,000

AGM 114 Hellfire
Boeing
$40,000

TOW
Hughes
$180,000

AIM 7 Sparrow
Raytheon
$125,000

AIM 9 Sidewinder
Raytheon
$84,000

AIM 120 B AMRAAM
Raytheon
$386,000

Patriot
Raytheon and Lockheed Martin

Harpoon Anti-Ship Missile
Boeing
$720,000


(snip)


Military and Economic Aid

Since 1976, Israel had been the largest annual recipient of U.S. foreign assistance. According to a November 2001 Congressional Research Service report, Israel: U.S. Foreign Assistance, U.S. aid to Israel in the last half century has totaled a whopping $81.3 billion.

In recent years, Israel remains the top recipient of U.S. military and economic assistance. The most commonly cited figure is $3 billion a year, with about $1.8 billion a year in Foreign Military Financing (FMF) grants from the Department of Defense and an additional $1.2 billion a year in Economic Support Funds (ESF) from the Department of State. In the last decade FMF grants to Israel have totaled $18.2 billion. In fact, 17% of all U.S. foreign aid is earmarked for Israel.

(snip)


http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/i...

[progressivebydesign]

139. Where does Israel get all the money for that? Is there lots of oil?

Cuz man.. they're one of our best military customers, apparently. No wonder the PNAC and Bush and Cheney don't want that gravy train to go away..

[madmark]

64. if someone shot a rocket from Nogales AZ to Nogales Mex; would

Mexico be justified in bombing Tucson?

[Redstone]

65. But I have the answer to the whole problem. Tell me THIS won't work:

We take one-half of the money we give to Israel, and use it to build factories in Palestinean areas (West Bank, Gaza). Just basic stuff to start with; light bulbs, mops & brooms, paper towels, pots & pans, and so forth.

Who will these factories sell their products to? Israelis, that's who. They have the money, and they're right next door, which keeps shipping costs down. And you can bet your last dollar that the government of Israel would encourage Israelis to buy products from the Palestinian factories.

Why? Because you're a hell of a lot less likely to go to war against somebody you do business with, than otherwise.

Build the Palestinian nation into a REAL country, and peace will follow. Trust me.

Redstone

[rug]

79. Good start.

[Redstone]

81. I believe so. Further, NO country has democracy without a middle class.

And how do you build a middle class? By building a sustainable economy.

And that sustainable economy is built by MAKING things.

It's damn simple.

Redstone

[rug]

85. I think we'd disagree on middle class but

it's insanity to send all this money on weapons and destruction. I agree there's no doubt that sending money for production is the first ten steps to peace.

[Redstone]

87. I'm not arguing, just asking: What country has ever had democracy

without having a middle class?

That's the thing that's getting me worried about America, after all: As economic polarization progresses until we have ONLY "haves" and "have nots" with nobody in between, can we sustain our democracy?

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts.

Redstone

[Selatius]

92. It's possible, but it would be weak and prone to violence

I suspect that if FDR was not successful in enacting his policies when a third of America was unemployed and starving, we'd be reading in our history textbooks about a fascist coup that replaced him where the new leader "made the trains run on time" and brought order through authoritarianism.

[Redstone]

104. Aha. So my pet theory is correct, in your opinion. Good. I've believed for

a long time that you can't have democracy without a middle class.

Dang, if I wer some hotshot economist or professor, I'd be able to make a ton of money explaining my theory.

But I'm not, so I can't. Ah well, it's certainly worth it if it means I don't have to be an economist for a living. I think that would kill me.

Redstone

[Zhade]

126. Remember, there almost WAS a coup.

Smedley Butler blew the whistle on it after being offered the ruling chair.

Quite a hero, that man!

[Selatius]

144. He probably would've led the free resistance if the coup was carried out

Then we'd have our own answer to the French Resistance here on US soil.

[rug]

103. Not one comes to mind.

I think the rule of the people, which is democracy, can come in many forms, Marx not excluded. A fair and just society is democratic regardless of its formal structure.

I don't want to threadjack but the elements of democracy in Marxism have been distorted beyond recognition while the elements of democracy in the U.S. have been praised beyond warrant.

The money and corruption extant in the current political process are close to fatally bleeding this system of any democratic pretense.

Either way, spending money, resources and political energy for war and nationalism, versus production and construction, guarantees the death of any kind of democracy.

[Redstone]

106. Yes, indeed. And that's Marx's fatal error. You cannot make people

work harder for the Glory of the State, nor for any idea, no matter how good an idea it might be.

BUT...if you reward them for working harder by making them financially comfortable (middle-class), then you have something. Because as soon as they're comfortable financialy, they'll take the time and energy to support idealistic ideas and programs.

Right?

Redstone

[rug]

111. No.

People, I believe, are by nature more cooperative than competitive.

Working so that everyone improves is mightier than working so I improve.

Really, if universal health care, universal housing, universal employment were in fact on the table, and not bullshit slogans, do you think the overriding goal for each person would be to get his own middle class niche?

[Redstone]

112. It would, unfortunately. We'd all be better off with cooperation, but the

factis that people don't get motivated by cooperation.

I do truly wish it were otherwise. But it take only ONE greedy bastard to kill a cooperative system.

Again, I wish it were otherise.

Redstone

[rug]

114. Gets interesting at 3:02

http://youtube.com/watch?v=j1oGIffyVVk&mode=user&search=

[Redstone]

115. Thanks for that.

Redstone

[leesa]

66. So is this AFTER the US had been making illegal fly-overs into Mexico

for years? Israel is and has been the aggressor for years. They have pushed and prodded until they got their war on. Remember the family they killed on the beach with missiles in Palestine that started this whole mess?

[Kahuna]

73. Agreed. Israel should return Palestinian territories. But they should

also defend themselves against attack. They cannot afford not to.

[treestar]

78. Probably attack Iraq.

the Israelis have no right to be in Gaza or the West Bank, and their deliberate settlements in those areas show they are in bad faith.

The Israelis have created their own problems.

[Jara sang]

82. Iraq did it and got away with it.

Gulf War I

[Redstone]

108. Funny how nobody ever talks about that, isn't it?

Redstone

[leftofthedial]

88. we'd invade Syria

most likely

and the notworks would be 24X7 shock and awe

[WillyT]

90. Hard Lesson II: If You Are Supported By A Moronic-Led "Super-Power"

Whose armor and weaponry have been used carelessley... don't assume that you will be defended like you've been told that you would.

[Redstone]

109. Well, now. You're the first to bring up that point. And it's a good one.

Redstone

[sir_captain]

122. Well, except that

I don't think Israel expects or counts on *anyone's* support, which frankly, they shouldn't, as no one other than the US has ever really supported them in pretty much anything. I'm with your original premise that the Israelis probably ought to stay completely out of all the places you mentioned, but they sure are between a rock and a hard place.

[malaise]

91. This suggests that

the school yard bully with the most weapons always wins. He can take away your land, your resources, kick you out and then dare you to fight back and since in his world only he is entitled to arms, you have no rights.

I guess that is planet earth.
Sp.

[laura888]

97. bingo

thanks for expressing my exact sentiments.

[The Straight Story]

116. I'm with you RedStone

You don't get peace by kidnapping, firing rockets, suicide bombings, etc and so on.

People talk about how much we have had things coming to us for our acts elsewhere at times (and yeah, we heard that about 9/11 and such). Well, using that same ideal other folks have some things coming to them too....

Got my flame suit on and a six pack right next to me.

[jollyreaper2112]

119. doggie!

Cute doggie, in_cog_ni_to!

[Endangered Specie]

123. The same thing we would do if someone bombed one of our airports.

[Warren DeMontague]

125. Agreed. nt

[Name removed]

127. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[threadkillaz]

129. Israel fired the first missiles.

Hizbollah commits an act of war against Israel by launching a raid across its northern border and kidnapping two of its soldiers. By way of retaliation, Israel commits an act of war against Lebanon bybombing Beirut's international airport and imposing a naval blockade of the Lebanese coast.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/07/14/do1401.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2006/07/14/ixopinion.html

===

And who started this kidnapping anyways?

Israel Kidnaps Non-violent Palestinian Activists
June 29th, 2006 | Posted in Press Releases, Bil'in Village
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Palestinians active in non-violent struggle against the illegal Israeli annexation barrier were taken from their homes in the West Bank last night. This happens at a time when media attention is focusing on the taking of one Israeli soldier by Palestinians, and the mass-taking of 64 Palestinian government officials last night, including 20 MPs and 8 cabinet ministers.

http://www.palsolidarity.org/main/2006/06/29/israel-kidnaps-yousef/

[cali]

137. er, no.

H'zbollah fired the first missiles. And just as people rightfully object to pro Israeli sites being used as a reliable source, so should they object to blatantly one sided Palestinian sources.

[progressivebydesign]

140. No, they kidnapped soldiers. Israel responded by bombing the airport. n/t

[cali]

142. Wrong.

H'zbollah fired rockets first- prior to killing and abducting the soldiers- as a diversionary tactic. Where have you been?

[cali]

143. Wrong.

H'zbollah fired rockets first- prior to killing and abducting the soldiers- as a diversionary tactic.

[threadkillaz]

146. Israel has been on a Gaza incursion using air strikes for weeks..

Google News - ""gaza incursion" air strikes"
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=%22gaza%20incursion%22%20air%20strikes&sa=N&tab=wn

And this incursion was because of 1 soldier being kidnapped.



Here is a google contest on who the aggressive bomb-throwers in this region are.


Google "palestinian missile strike" returns 22.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=%22palestinian+missile+strike%22&spell=1

Google "israeli missile strike" returns 107,000 !!!!
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22israeli+missile+strike%22&btnG=Search

[cali]

147. Look,

You're right about Gaza and totally misinformed about what happened with h'zbollah. Israel did NOT fire first on Lebanon. H'zbollah crossed the border killed eight israeli soldiers and abducted two wounded ones after having fired katushas into Israeli towns as a diversion.

[progressivebydesign]

131. They didn't fire first... Israel bombed the airport first. n/t

[alcibiades_mystery]

145. Oh, has anyone "learned a lesson" here?

More pretentious drivel...