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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 12:30 PM
Original message
request additional opinion on FISA law
I am assuming you understand that the FEDS have 72 hours after starting a wiretap to go to a FISA court.

read this please
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00001811----000-.html

Does it say that after declaring WAR-- the FEDS can only wiretap for the 1st 15 days of the war?

Or does it -section 1811- say to replace the 72 hr time frame with the 15 day time frame
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Debau2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. My opinion
is that the can wiretap without a warrant for up to 15 days after the declaration of war. So on day 16 it becomes illegal. But I am no legal scholar...
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. wiretapping in only the 1st 15 days--? of a war
tongue in cheek---

you want to stick with that story?
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Debau2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. ??
Now you got me all confused! haha I just want the year to end, hopefully waking up on January 1 to find that * was never really elected, it was just a long nightmare...haha

I still say, that if anyone is wiretapping me, I could use some help. I am out of dogfood, and my house needs vacuuming, so * if you are listening, how about helping out??
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Ahh A good dream LOL
see Walts post # 7

I read section 1811 to say- during a declared war-- you can wiretap for 15 days before applying for a court order to make the wiretap legal.

The other view is that wiretapping can only occur in the 1st 15 days of a war.

I think the other view is wrong-- what if a war goes on for 3 months. what good is 15 days?

Think WW2-- 1941 to 1945. but you can only wiretap for 15 days---


ANd * can ya get the dog food on the move-- ?
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
2. However, in this case...
there has been no declaration of war.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
4. It's a moot point, Section 1811 does not apply
Congress has not declared war.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. right-- but bear with me for a moment
doesnt reading section 1811 as wiretapping can occur in the 1st 15 days of a WAr seem--- WRONG? What if the War goes on for ahhhh one year?

Does it makes sen=se to you to replace tyhe 72 hr time frame with a 15 day time frame?
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. You replace the 72 hour timeframe wiht a 15 day timeframe
after Congress has declared war. All the way up to an actual declaration, the timeframe is 72 hours.

Congress has not declared war, ergo, the timeframe is 72 hours.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Walt -- yes exactly
SO Bush has blasted the 15 day time frame too, so

would it be fair to say that the Bush Regime could be in violation of section 1811? In addition to a plethora of other crimes.

Thats the way I read it. SO the BUSHCO has been citing the 72 hr time frame.

But they claim these sweeping "war powers", shouldnt they have claimed the 15 day waiting period too?

Or would that (claiming 15 days) have brought more attention to the fact that they blew the 15 day time frame out of the water too.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. The IWR is treated by the USSC as a declaration of war for the purpose
of FISA.

They had 15 days of no rules - followed by FISA rules - unless FISA in unconstitutional.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. Cite the case
because I sure as hell cannot find that anywhere in any SCOTUS decision.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I know that Senator Biden said that for FISA the authorization is =
I have the transcript from a show-- but he provided no cites.

Im not to comfortable with the WAr Powers Act, and all the legal twisting thats gone on since Korea & Viet Nam.

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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Biden is not a SCOTUS Justice
Biden spouted his opnion, not legal precedent. The language in the statute is clear. Copngress must declare war. Congress has not declared war.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. right-- Bidens opinion
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. The issue was a VietNam issue - - if you
have access to lexis/nexis you may find that era's court refusal to demand a Declaration of War. However, the Vietnam era case may have been dropped with the passage of the 1973 War Powers Resolution. You will need Lexis/Nexis to see the times when courts have effectively let "authorizations of force" be the equivalent to declarations of War for various purposes via refusing to intervene in the matter before the court just on the basis of no war resolution having been passed. However I know of no case testing FISA's first 15 days rule.

From Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war_by_the_United_States

In 1973, following the withdrawal of most American troops from the Vietnam War, a debate emerged about the extent of presidential power in deploying troops without a declaration of war. A compromise in the debate was reached with the War Powers Resolution. This act clearly defined how many soldiers could be deployed by the president of the United States and for how long. It also required formal reports by the president to Congress regarding the status of such deployments, and limited the total amount of time that American forces could be employed without a formal declaration of war.

Although the constitutionality of the act has never been tested, it has been followed, most notably during the Grenada Conflict, the Panamanian Conflict, the Somalia Conflict, the First Gulf War, and the Second Gulf War. In each case, the President asserted the constitutional authority to commit troops without the necessity of Congressional approval, but in each case the President received Congressional authorization that satisfied the provisions of the War Powers Act.

Controversy regarding U.S. declarations of war
Those who oppose waging war without declaration point to Article I of the Constitution, which reads The Congress shall have the power to declare war.

In the case of smaller conflicts not requiring large commitments of manpower and money, many Americans believe that precedents have already been set for acting without the need for declarations of war. In the case of major conflicts, however, debate is centered around the aforesaid words of the United States Constitution.

Those who believe that formal declarations of war are not necessary say that an absence of a formal declaration does not necessarily mean that a military conflict will be chaotic and unlawful; in many cases the rules of war are now well enough accepted to make formal declarations unnecessary. There are also diplomatic reasons for a dislike of "declaring war" on a country, as it can often be perceived as holding an entire nation responsible for the actions of a few of its citizens. In the case of the most recent public opposition, those who support such actions have noted that, in the case of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, there was no 'target' for a legal declaration of war, rather political groups or individuals.

However, the historical record disagrees somewhat on this point. The Barbary Coast War was clearly waged against a political entity not regarded as the legitimate government of its nation of operation; the Border War, quietly declared as it was, was waged against a single person, Pancho Villa.

Instead of formal war declarations, the United States Congress has begun issuing authorizations of force. Such authorizations have included the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution that initated American participation in the Vietnam War, and the recent "Use-of-force" resolution that started the 2003 Gulf War. However, there is some question as to the legality of these authorizations of force in some circles. Many who support declarations of war argue that such declarations keep administrations honest by forcing them to lay out their case to the American people, while at the same time honoring the constitutional role of the United States Congress.

Those who oppose this measure say that it only takes more time, and that more lives will be lost for the sake of a political formality. Americans should, they argue, support their presidents and question military actions only after the fact. However, the courts have consistently refused to intervene in this matter, and in practice Presidents have the power to commit forces with Congressional approval but without a declaration of war.


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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Sorry, this does not apply here.
The use of force is not comparable to the language of the statute. The language is clear, there must be a declaration of war.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. language of the statute" - until a court agrees I an afraid this goes
nowhere.

And so far the courts have declined to get involved.

Indeed I was giving you the left slant.

On the right we have folks saying that there need not be any resoltion or act by Congress, so even without a war powers type resultion authorizing the use of force, the Pres (king) can take us into battle (war).

Until the Judges grow some balls we get nowhere with this.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
10. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. interesting post --are you following me?
to use that language too--

I was told the same amswer by 2 guys from FLorida-- who hijacked my thread.

I thought a reasonable thread might ensue eleswhere.
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Thorandmjolnir Donating Member (390 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Not following you
Just commenting on your lack of reading comprehension.

And yes, you have been told the answer to your question before.

Happy New Year.

:party:
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #12
14.  I wonder if the mods tolerate the namecalling and such
Edited on Fri Dec-30-05 01:27 PM by FogerRox
let me just send off a PM to SKinner
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Peter Frank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
22. I've read the statute in other references...
...and it says that after 15 days -- you have to apply for a warrant. Sorry I don't have the link handy.
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