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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 01:54 PM
Original message
Outsourcing question for everyone.
People are all up in arms about how immigrants are going to "take our jobs". I know that this is a big problem in some industries, like construction. But from my perspective, the outsourcing of white collar jobs is what really has me spooked. Let me give you an example:

I call my electric company, and customer service connects me to India. I meet a pal for coffee and she tells me how excited she is because she's interviewing for a job to act as a go between sending computer animation jobs for film over to India. I tell my friend about this and she says that everyone is losing their jobs where she works as a bill collector because the collections are being outsourced to India. She also told me that kids are now getting on-line and phone tutoring from teachers in India. When I was in the process of creating a website, I got tons of responses from companies who said "we hire employees from around the world, so you get the most competitive prices."

Should I be moving to India? If corporations have open borders, why can't we have open citizenship?

I'm just trying to think this through, I'm not looking to fight.
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larrysh Donating Member (181 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. To tell the truth......
We are heading towards open citizenship but overcoming nationalism will take a long long time. What I find terribly unfair, is that many of the countries taking our jobs thru outsourcing (and agressively solicit
American companies to do so), also have strict immigration and work requirements for foreigners within their own borders. A 'do as I say,
not as I do," type attitude.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. How about the ones born here, who are suffering the most?
When I lose my job, I'm as good as rotting in the sewer.

I'm a hard worker. A smart worker. A little quirky, unusual, but I am a "smart cookie" as I think the euphemism is called.

And I've got nobody else. Don't blame me; I've been ostracized by as many facets of society I can count. And I can count real good too.

Do I get a say in what's going on or am I irrelevant too?
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rainman99 Donating Member (283 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. My job was outsourced to India. I wouldn't want to live there. Yuck
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. How do YOU live?
Do you have a spouse who can currently support the extra financial weight? I mean that's the humane thing to do, one would think...

or were you dumped? Too much a burden or "cost" to the other's personal benefit?

Is your savings still intact?

Unemployment bennies?

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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
3. well, I think the answer to that is we should be keeping jobs here at home
We should eb willing to give up the 99cent crap from china, and have fewer toys, in exchange for health care and jobs. Somehow the working/middle classes are not able to see the big picture. simple boycotts of chinese goods would end the walmart craze, but people would need to pay a little more for better products. instead, this outsourcing will bring our salaries down to average with third world employees, which is exactly what is happening. First you lose your health care, now you lose your pensions, and the idea of a guest worker program is to lose the guarantee of any wages. (Mexicans will work for any price which is more than they can earn in mexico, so our wages can still come down quite a lot.)
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. self-del
Edited on Sat Jul-08-06 02:13 PM by HypnoToad
too talky already :blush:
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. I think it's almost impossible to boycott Chinese products.
Unless you're in a large city. Or at least without a massive campaign. I shop in thrift stores to buy my clothes and by the rest at American Apparel even though they don't pay their workers *that* well. A student of mine did an expose in Chinatown showing that women working for $1 an hour were making clothes that said "Made in the USA". Now there's something to be proud of.

I think that people can cut down on comsumption, but with TV screens blaring nothing but ads, people buy products just to feel connected to the culture at large. Also, boycotting is a private act. No one knows if you're shopping or not. No one knows if other people are going a long with it. I think that strikes are a better way to get a point across. Of course, there are plenty of desperate people who can be manipulated into scabbing by the same media that manipulates them to buy cheap chinese crap.

I feel gloomy.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. People do know if you're shopping or not
if you are shopping at local mom/pop stores. I work in a small town in Arkansas, and it is typical to "visit" with the shop owners for a while. I get my clothes at the Hospital Auxillary store; if it wasn't made in the USA, at least my money will be going to buy wheelchairs and other equipment the hospital needs. I get food at local stores which stock local produce; my health food bars and toiletry soaps are made locally, and my peanut butter is made at a commune in Missouri that I've visited. The folks at the stores and the makers of the products know and appreciate that I shop with them.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. It does take a lot of consciousness, and most people aren't there.
I'm thinking about what to do with my in-laws, who live in a small town with only a walmart and a chain grocery. Certainly those of us with options should do our best. I can't shop in thrift stores in NYC because I'm terrified of the bed bug problem. It's epidemic.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Bedbugs
are epidemic not only in NY City. I work for a pest control company, and read how the problem has reached nationwide. There are a lot of different types of control out there-if I find something cheap and relatively safe, I'll let you know.
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davidwparker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #3
19. Right on. This is what I do. People do have the power (with their money),
but this is one materialistic nation. Getting people to see the big picture is tough.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
4. The wider issue:
I wonder what the foreign animators think of our cartoon shows...

When will we get open borders from the corporations?

When will the cost of living in India be identical to the cost of living of the US?

When will US citizens get broadband for 50 cents a month? Instead of $50?

When will decent computers cost $200 for Americans?

When will the cost of living be on the same level? Don't give us this tripe about open citizenship. That's irrelevant. Not with the current cost of living; which suits the immigrants and not us because our standard of living allows people to live single. When packs of families come on over (or vice-versa) they can share the load. What is going on is condemning single people to death. No go over to the Lounge and tell me how being single is oh-so-great.

I could go on and on.

Right now the field is skewed.

Is this a transition to a globalized world, the way some Liberals want it?

Or is it a transition out of America, period; the workers in those countries used to poverty?

Let's look at the wider situation. There's far more to it than "open citizenship". It's social engineering, social weeding (ironically of the nerdy/brainy sort since we're deemed socially inferior, but yet our brains are of no use?? You'd think WE would be of more value... apparently not), and exploitation of the masses who CAN afford to live together.



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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Stop being so excusatory, geez.
I'm not giving you any "tripe" about anything. I was just making a point, apparently a common one. I agree with your analysis, I just don't know what to do about it.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. We can do nothing about it. And forgive me, I do tend to get emotional
Edited on Sat Jul-08-06 02:21 PM by HypnoToad
particularly when I know it's the future.

Despite acquiescing to the inevitable, what can I do?

But many haven't acquiesced. Or noticed enough to care. And I suspect they won't.

And, yes, I can say all that despite thinking I may be going to the gutter someday. I'd rather not, but when people who have enough letters after their name for two alphabets can't get a job, something bad is afoot. :(

I'm just going to hold on to the best I can, and as any proper survivor would do, adapt to the inevitable. And I don't mean that dumb show on CBS either. :) And adaptation is the key. For one can either adapt or resist.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. Very true, HT
I have a lot of letters behind my name, too. I don't think things look particularly bright. I'm also afraid of getting a Ph.D. in homelessness. I wish you luck. I know that it is really hard for some of us, and I do think it is a war on single people-- and LGBT people are forced into single status, so the job woes make it worse.

You're right though, adapt or resist. I think adapt is too kind a word though sometimes. In some cases it is acquiesce or resist.
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davidwparker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
20. It's about destroying the middle class here. It started with Reagan.
A healthy middle class works against the super rich. It's about pure greed.
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catmother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
9. there was a big discussion about this topic a few weeks ago.
Edited on Sat Jul-08-06 02:19 PM by catmother
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


i've known about this problem for years. my husband works for a major international computer company and the only reason his job has not been outsourced is because he has certain skills that he learned a long time ago. they don't have those skills in india yet.

if it happened we would be okay because he has 37 years with the company and is eligible for a pension. he's only 58 and would at least like to work till 62 when he can collect social security.

the younger people who have less time with the company are screwed.

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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. that post is fantastic. I agree. well said.
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Democrats_win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
13. They tell us it's the best of all possible worlds, private efficiency
is better than government. Rational thought is clearly running this country.

What's truly frightening is that this is not at all true! Reality is we're suffering and getting deeper in debt while the ivory tower people insist it's all for the best. (Literally! A bush economist said it was good.)

Our health care system is the best example to prove we could be better off but stubborn fools are preventing it.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
14. Capital has no borders... populations do. . . . n/t
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
15. Pissing in the wind.
Corporations have to make profits and expand or face death. They will go, or stay, where the "cost of doing business" is cheapest. If they can get a well trained, or trainable, workforce for half of what they're paying here, or elsewhere, that's where they're going to go. If they can get labor cheaper from "illegal" immigrants, they'll do that.

Hoping that Americans, or anyone else, is going to "buy American" products, when similar or supererior products are available at less cost is a fantasy. And, the corporations know it.

The West has been exploiting the rest of the world for cheap labor and resources for a couple of centuries. Now, they've turned capitalism against us. In order to survive, the corporations have to go to where the cheap labor and resources are.

As time goes on, the workers in the third world, will become more skilled and demand higher wages and better working conditions. The corporations will then move on, until they run out of places that will abide them. When wages & conditions rise enough in Guatamala, Honduras, Mexico, China, India, etc, the workers will stay put. But, it's going to be a long and bumpy ride for the rich nations.

To paraphrase Lenin, "The Capitalists will manufacture and sell us the rope with which we will hang them."



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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. I wouldn't call them superior...
Which means whoever is making them knows something's up... or that people will need to replace 'em more often, hence a bigger profit.

It's a flawed system. But nothing's perfect.

"The Sun Makers" - campy 1970s episode of a popular sci-fi tv show, but it's spot-on with its allegory too.
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catmother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
16. last night we watched larry king. it was all about ken lay and
enron. we also saw the movie a few months ago "the smartest guys in the room" about the enron execs. my husband remarked that if someone dug deep enough into large companies they might find the same thing going on as did in enron. it's all about the "fat cats".
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
17. for a real thrill, google tax returns + outsourcing
Then ponder that the IRS requires you go give sensitive data re your financial and health history each year and they might just hand it over to private corporations for processing. Those private corporations might just be sending or zapping the info around the world for the actual work to be done.

Many mortgage companies have outsourced the processing of your loans.

Feel safer America.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
23. I agree the outsourcing of White Collar jobs is bad.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
24. Did you see the cc numbers being stolen by Indian out source
by cc. companies? Guess the fuckers are rethinking, or thinking, or trying to think about their decision to outsource to India.
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Upfront Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
25. Wake up call?
Not many of you hi tech people gave a rats ass when it was union, high pay manufacturing jobs being shipped out. Now you get it. To late, I think. Welcome to the real world.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Funny comment to make to someone with a union-yes avatar.
But I agree. Lack of union support is absurd. And the megamillion dollar union busting firms have not helped with their rovian campaign of disinformation. Of course, the business unions have not helped either.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. I'm gonna get flamed for this but I agree.
It's probably because people with degrees working white collar jobs feel "entitled" to good pay because of their "investment" in education.

Whereas, blue collar union workers or construction workers are thought to be disposable/replaceable to many in this country.

I'm furious with how * is union busting EVERY chance he gets the S.O.B.! Meanwhile he's been given everything in his life with a silver spoon! :grr:

IMO, ALL WORKERS are entitled to making a good decent wage for a good honest days work. Degree or not.
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catmother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. my husband doesn't have a degree. he has some college. the
rest he learned on-the-job. since technology is constantly changing the degree would not have helped anyway. the company sends it's employees to their schools. next week my husband is teaching a class. he's taught many over the years for the company.

my family were blue collar workers and so was my husbands. my father in-law could do anything, electrical, plumbing, drywall. i think people with those skills are highly valuable.

a degree today doesn't mean all that much. there's people with master's degrees driving cabs.

and i agree with you. every hard working person deserves a decent wage.
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RagAss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
28. and our information is being sold....there have been numerous
identity thefts in India of credit card and financial information from US customers...and Beware...many health insurance companies are now off shoring your insurance and claim data to India.....
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