Obama is RIGHT

[zaj]

Obama is doing the same with Religion that Lakoff does on issues generally...

He's trying to teach Democrats how to fix their weaknesses by reframing an issue we are "losing" badly on without surrendering the central tenants of our system.

And we have been losing because the right has been successful in using framing to chop off a part of our traditional "base". We can bring those voters back by listening to Obama.

He's doing the right thing in the right forum at the right time in the right way.

It's OK to speak to liberals about the need and method for reaching out to the religious moderates (former Dems) who have voted Republican lately. I'll tell you what, the mid-range Republicans (some former Dems) I've come across on the internet have opened up wide to this act by Obama.

He's made an big impression on exactly the folks that we need to make an impression on. The folks who don't necessarily agree with radical fundamentalism, but also believe that Dems have become radical fundamentalists in their desire to remove religion from the "public square" entirely.

While I personally don't want it removed entirely (and I assume most here agree with me), there is a portion of voters that have swung to the Republicans because they speak in a way that causes these voters to fear Dems and trust Republicans on this issue.

Obama is teaching us how to undo that notion through language.

If you read it closely Obama isn't advocating acceptance of teacher lead school prayer, he spoke broadly refering to "having voluntary student prayer groups using school property to meet".

He's doing what the Dems can and should do, which is reach out across to the moderate religous folks voting Republican. He's doing his best to reset the discussion by conceding the points that might be easiest politically to concede.

Notice his words carefully...

"Having voluntary student prayer groups using school property".

No mention of "teacher lead" or "during class".

"acknowledge the power of faith in the lives of the American people".

Absolutely.

"Not every mention of God in public is a breach to the wall of separation. Context matters"

Agreed 100%. Nothing specific enough to open debate, but focusing on commonality rather than differences. It's the right way to approach this sort of political issue, IMO. As opposed to the wedge issue approach.

[endarkenment]

1. "If you read it closely Obama isn't advocating"

I guess that is my major problem: on a close reading Obama isn't really saying much of anything. At a distance he uses phrase that support 'prayer in school' and 'God in the public sphere'. He seems to want to have it both ways. He's triangulating.

[zaj]

3. It's all the about the use of language...

He's showing Dems how to do it effectively to rebut what's been done to us.

[endarkenment]

5. Then he is going about it the wrong way,

"He's showing Dems how to do it effectively to rebut what's been done to us."

There are two issues that are the very last thing that Rove wants Democrats to make the 06 election about: what is happening in Iraq and what happened in Katrina. Every time some media annointed Democratic leader starts talking about something other than the failed war and this criminally incompetent corrupt administration, Rove wins as we have gone off target. The way to win the votes of America is to tell the the truth about the real and important issues, not to struggle to find some complicated way to avoid offending the delusional. We need to make this 06 midterm election a referendum on the Bush administration and Obama's speech is not helping.

[zaj]

9. Don't forget a few things...

Voting machine issues aside...

1) The GOP won in 2004 by using a strategy of pushing our perceived weaknesses (threat to religion, weakness in GWOT) as a reason to NOT vote Dems. Those issues are often so powerful that they trump other major issues like Iraq.

Weak candidate like Kerry aside...

2) We spent TONS of energy pointing out the negatives of what's going on nationally in 2004 (a national election) and lost anyway.

It's not enough to merely push down your opponent. You have to raise yourself up... by fixing our weaknesses. In the minds of some voters, our position as the "enemey" or religion will drive voter decisions far more than their incompetence. Especially in a local election like 2006.

What Obama is doing by itself isn't enough, but as we witnessed in 2004, focusing on what "they" are doing poorly isn't enough either.

[endarkenment]

15. As has been stated previously

The Republican strategists looked at the popular vote loss by Bush in '00 and went out and got a few million more votes by playing to their base. Democratic strategists looked at the popular vote loss by Kerry in 04 and are going out to get some more votes by playing to the Republican's base. As ever the beltway punditocracy's solution is to move the Democratic Party to the right, as ever it is a losing strategy.

[zaj]

19. There's a strategic difference between the two...

The Republican's have a large homogeneous "base" that they can turn to. Dems have a collection of minority special interests that they have had to build through coalition and outreach.

Moving to the right works for the Republicans in a way that moving to the left won't for Dems.

[Greyhound]

13. He's doing exactly what he has been told do by "The Party"

In case you missed it, it took him about 1.5 seconds to change his stance after his election and he was informed "how things are".

[katty]

26. he sure is!

[Rosemary2205]

8. I don't mind the pandering at all

quite frankly, as a devout christian myself, the comments that I am a "God hating leftist commie" hurt. If a little pandering for a few years takes that bit of knee jerk acid out of their mouths then why not?

[rocktivity]

23. Worse, he's not talking about faith--he's talking about Christianity.

"Having voluntary student prayer groups using school property..."
"...acknowledge the power of faith in the lives of the American people..."
"Not every mention of God in public is a breach to the wall of separation. Context matters..."

Sounds good--until you start replacing "God" with G-d, Allah, Buddha, Zeus, Shiva, nature, flying spaghetti monsters, etc...I seriously doubt Obama wants Satanism "advocated" on school property on in the public square.

:headbang:
rocknation

[zaj]

25. He's NOT... read his speech (linked below)

He's speaking broadly about others, narrowly about his experience. He addresses Jews, Muslims, etc.

[still_one]

2. I believe he is just pandering, and obviously so

[zaj]

6. It's not pandering... it's reframing...

It's reclaiming the terms of the discussion...

It might require parsing on our part to see that he's not giving up the big stuff, but to the group we are targeting to return to the Dem Party, what he's saying is golden.

And it great because if you talk to some of these people, the difference is that the Republicans SPEAK to their issues in a way that makes them feel comfortable. Republicans have convinced them that Dems DON'T SPEAK to their issues, and instead threaten their issues.

Obama is demonstrating the way to seek out and speak to the common issues between the Dems and the Religous folks who've migrated away.

[KharmaTrain]

7. Yep, If's Pander And A Good Thing, Too

Seems folks here only want to hear preaching to the choir here...or when their pre-concieved notions of a politician doesn't match the reality, it's like someone pooped in their cornflakes.

Senator Obama is going for a whole different audience...and a large one at that. It's to reach out to the disenchanted in "religious right"...those who aren't thrilled with the rising power of a Dobson or the ham-handed antics of this regime or the general say one thing, then do nothing antics of the Repugnican party. These are people who've been woken up to how out of whack things have become and would like to find a balance to the shrill rhetoric.

This isn't red meat for the blue states, but an olive branch to the red ones...let's see how it plays.

[zaj]

10. It's not red meat for the blue states, but an olive branch to the red ones

Great quote, KharmaTrain...

Thought is deserved more visibility...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1532979&mesg_id=1533155

[AlinPA]

4. I just hope he doesn't suck up to Falwell, Robertson, Dobson, Bob Jones

U. and the rest of those intolerant pigs. If he does, I'd lose more respect for him.

[never cry wolf]

16. Read his speech

Because when we ignore the debate about what it means to be a good Christian or Muslim or Jew; when we discuss religion only in the negative sense of where or how it should not be practiced, rather than in the positive sense of what it tells us about our obligations towards one another; when we shy away from religious venues and religious broadcasts because we assume that we will be unwelcome – others will fill the vacuum, those with the most insular views of faith, or those who cynically use religion to justify partisan ends.

In other words, if we don’t reach out to evangelical Christians and other religious Americans and tell them what we stand for, Jerry Falwell’s and Pat Robertson’s will continue to hold sway.

More fundamentally, the discomfort of some progressives with any hint of religion has often prevented us from effectively addressing issues in moral terms. Some of the problem here is rhetorical – if we scrub language of all religious content, we forfeit the imagery and terminology through which millions of Americans understand both their personal morality and social justice. Imagine Lincoln’s Second Inaugural Address without reference to “the judgments of the Lord,” or King’s I Have a Dream speech without reference to “all of God’s children.” Their summoning of a higher truth helped inspire what had seemed impossible and move the nation to embrace a common destiny.
http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2006/06/obama_on_faith_and_politics_an.html#more

[AlinPA]

17. Thank you. Sounds OK.

[zaj]

18. That's the perfect quote to support what I'm saying... Thank you!

Far more people here need to read and listen to what he's saying and stop being threatened by what he's NOT SAYING.

[Ksec]

11. Hes a politician. Hes playing politics.

Thats his job. Hes elected to frame issues to our advantage. Everyone should calm down. Its politics.

[shance]

12. Obama is a political tool being used by the Corporate powers.

n/t

[zaj]

14. Ha!

[novalib]

20. You Got That Right!

You said what I thought!

Never trust the Corporate Powers!

THEY look out for THEIR OWN interests, and will USE ANYONE to get their own interests!

WE, the PEOPLE, need to be constantly vigilant against attempts by the corporate powers to seduce us away from our core beliefs! It is most seductive when the coporate powers use a person we usually trust to spread their vile lies and deceit!

[katty]

27. always had that impression, he's an attractive, perfect tool

[Bill McBlueState]

21. if he's trying to do what Lakoff suggests, he could have done better

I agree that we need to reach out to certain constituencies, as long as we don't sacrifice our respect for diversity and other core values.

But Obama actually plays into the Republican frame when he accepts the idea that Democrats are opposed to religion. There are no atheist Democratic Congressmen, the most recent Democratic Presidents have spoken openly about their religion, and Democratic politicians are just as likely to be Christian as Republicans are. His "mea culpa" just makes it look as though people like Ann Coulter have a point.

If you're trying to win the rhetorical debate, repeating the things your opponents say about you, like Obama did, is a no-no.

[zaj]

24. HUGE DIFFERENCE!

He doesn't "accepts the idea that Democrats are opposed to religion".

He accepts that Republicans have made that the perception of the public by using framing and language and that we need address the problem, not ignore it.

[rocktivity]

22. Obama fell into the trap of making Dems repent for GOP sins

He should have said that perception of Dems as anti-religious has been concocted by the extremists who have hijacked the GOP. Then he should have proceeded to drive a wedge between the religious right and the religious by giving specific examples of how religious the religious right are NOT, and spoken up for freedom of all religions plus the separation of church and state. Kind of like this:

...I join (the) ranks of those who are angry because...the faith I love has been taken over by fundamentalists who claim to speak for Jesus, but whose actions are anything but Christian...I take issue with those in power who claim moral values are on their side...

When you fail to veto a single spending bill, but ask us to pay for a war with no exit strategy and no end in sight, creating an enormous deficit that hangs like a great millstone around the necks of our children, you are doing something immoral...

When you talk about Jesus constantly, who was a healer of the sick, but do nothing to make sure that anyone who is sick can go to see a doctor, even if she doesn't have a penny in her pocket, you are doing something immoral...

When you dismantle countless environmental laws designed to protect the earth which is God's gift to us all, so that the corporations that bought you and paid for your favors will make higher profits while our children breathe dirty air and live in a toxic world, you have done something immoral...

I'm tired of people thinking that because I'm a Christian, I must be a supporter of President Bush, or that because I favor civil rights and gay rights I must not be a person of faith...

Don't be afraid to speak out. Don't back down when your friends begin to tell you that the cause is righteous and that the flag should be wrapped around the cross...Real Christians take chances for peace. So do real Jews, and real Muslims, and real Hindus, and real Buddhists--so do all the faith traditions of the world...

THAT'S how Dems should court the REAL Christian evangelicals--demonize (if you'll pardon the expression) the fake ones. Best of all, saying that the GOP Christian right are not the right kind of Christians is a message that even athiests can love!

:headbang:
rocknation