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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 08:16 AM
Original message
The boiled frog - Alarmists or visionaries?
I shuddered the first time I read these passages. Am I am “alarmist” or simply seeing with clarity?

I understand why some here get defensive when this regime is compared to the Nazis or our citizenry are compared to the Germans at the beginning of the Third Reich.

Many just cannot bring themselves to imagine that our "leaders", as horrific as they have been, could take us to such an extreme. Many simply don't want to believe they are blind. They would rather continue to believe America is immune.

We are not. The longer it takes the majority to realize what is happening, the harder it will be to end it and turn back. It is much easier to tear out a sapling than a grown oak.

This regime is looking to dominate the world militarily and economically. They are in several countries already causing massive devastation and suffering and have plans to take it to more countries. How is this any different than Hitler’s dreams? Other than their capabilities far exceed Hitler's.

I am in the process of watching the old Capra military propaganda film WWII “Why We Fight”. It is chilling in the comparisons to today and the neocon agenda. I recently re-watched “Judgement at Nuremberg” – also chilling.


snip>

"You see," my colleague went on, "one doesn't see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for the one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don't want to act, or even to talk, alone; you don't want to "go out of your way to make trouble." Why not? - Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.

snip

"And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can't prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don't know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have.

"But your friends are fewer now. Some have drifted off somewhere or submerged themselves in their work. You no longer see as many as you did at meetings or gatherings. Informal groups become smaller; attendance drops off in little organizations, and the organizations themselves wither. Now, in small gatherings of your oldest friends, you feel that you are talking to yourselves, that you are isolated from the reality of things. This weakens your confidence still further and serves as a further deterrent to – to what? It is clearer all the time that, if you are going to do anything, you must make an occasion to do it, and then you are obviously a troublemaker. So you wait, and you wait.

"But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That's the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and the smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked – if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in "43" had come immediately after the "German Firm" stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in "33". But of course this isn't the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at Step C? And so on to Step D.

snip>

much more at link

http://www.thirdreich.net/Thought_They_Were_Free.html


A previous post about this:

A couple of really good comments and info here though a short thread.

NoMoreMyths Sat Dec-17-05 03:11 PM
Original message
They Thought They Were Free, by Milton Mayer

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5621341


Flame away – I’ve got my suit on!:hi:


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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. I can't believe the populace did not rise up in revulsion when
the administration began with the undermining of the Geneva conventions and the acceptance that a little torture might be a good thing. That really made me lose my faith in my fellow Americans. How can we profess so loudly to be "moral" and "humane" and "Christian" while excusing such immoral, inhumane and unChristian acts from our leaders?

Why are Americans so cavalierly willing to give away civil rights and privileges that previous generations shed so much blood to establish and protect? Honestly, what has happened to us?
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. And now look what happened to our two troops that were captured.
I also was and still am baffled by the condoning of torture by many Americans.

The Nuremberg Principles, the UN charter of 1949 and the Geneva convention are now the same as our Constitution to *, "just a fucking piece of paper".

It's not surprising though, the US has rarely ever honored it's treaties: why would * start now? :shrug:

And they call THEM terrorists. :grr:

Selfishness and greed is what has happened to us Phoebe. Unless their creature comforts disappear they will never rise up and fight. Look how enraged so many are over the price of gas compared to the reaction to knowing our country is committing torture. Mind-boggling for sure.

It always surprises me also that so many refuse to believe how high the Iraqi death count actually has risen. 38,000 or 200,000: does it lessen the atrocity of our massacre there?

Good to see you Phoebe! :hi:

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lapislzi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. Ask the average American. Go on, ask him or her
Does the person even *know* what the Geneva conventions are and how they protect us? Go ahead, try it. Unless you're talking to a veteran or a similarly informed person, you will get a blank stare. So you explain it. You explain and you explain and you explain (trying not to refer to other concepts that your subject is probably not familiar with either), and they will look at you and say something like, "well, if it will help prevent a terrorist attack/save thousands of lives/catch a terrorist, I'm for it." This is what passes for logic.

If it's not spoonfed to them on the goddamn teevee, then they don't know and don't want to know. Might as well go pound sand.
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. You are right lapislzi. They recognize the names
of treaties, but rarely have a clue as to the content. I understand your total frustration with the sheeple.

And now * has many believing we NEED to torture to "be safe". They think, "Wow, if someone tortured me I'd tell them the truth." Never understanding how torture causes the innocent to lie!

I will keep explaining as long as it takes to save this country. We must not allow them to ignore what is right in their faces. I don't intend to lose what is left of our Freedom because they won't listen.

I just spoke with a friend's daughter that is over-run by fundies in her life. She said many of them are voting democrat in Nov.! It's encouraging. We can only take it one at a time as I don't expect any massive awakenings at once.

Sooner or later they will understand what we tried to tell them - once they suffer enough. It's coming.

Fascist bastards.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
22. Reagan
"Why are Americans so cavalierly willing to give away civil rights and privileges that previous generations shed so much blood to establish and protect? Honestly, what has happened to us?"
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-22-06 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #22
43. I guess he didn't always go to bed unaware (old headline).
Edited on Thu Jun-22-06 11:08 PM by vickiss
If that cretin could even see it then...

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Cyrano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
2. No flaming from me. I started calling them Nazis about a year and a half
ago and have been wearing fire resistant clothing ever since.

But here's the real problem. What do we do about it? No web site is going to allow you to advocate violence or revolution. And even if you found one that permits it, you think Big Brother isn't watching?

Mounting a physical assault against the criminal enterprise running our country is virtually impossible and very likely suicidal.

And voting against them is just as useless since they're doing the vote counting.

Hence, the question I've been asking for a long time now. Given that we can't look to other countries for help, given that we can't fight them at the ballot box or in the streets, and given that there is no organized "underground" in this country, what do we do to battle these thugs?
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. I just don't know Cyrano.
My soul weeps to know the suffering that will come if we don't do something soon.

And it weeps knowing the suffering that will come from fighting back.

You've been asking the same question that I have. And other than violent revolution I see little recourse against these evil bastards.

I want our country back and am willing to die if need be. Too many weren't willing to make educated votes when it still counted (a major reason we are now in this position, imo), much less fight to save the country now.

It will take watching their children dying from common infections (which they have massively contributed to by the horrible abuse of antibiotics, btw), having to dig through garbage to feed their children and still having them die from starvation before they will raise a hand to fight.

Complacency and apathy are far easier, look where we are now. And we ALL, the entire world, will suffer because of it.

:cry:
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
24. Vote with your $$$. Don't support the corporate regime.
"Hence, the question I've been asking for a long time now. Given that we can't look to other countries for help, given that we can't fight them at the ballot box or in the streets, and given that there is no organized "underground" in this country, what do we do to battle these thugs?"

Empower yourselves. Don't give the bastards any more of your money than you have to.
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
3. I haven't read your links yet....
(and I will) but I don't see any reason for donning a flame suit. I think, unfortunately, you are right as horrific as that is. Google UN Agenda 21 to read about the North American Union!
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. I've heard a bit about that snappy and will
look into it.

I'm still waiting for the flamers. Usually they come quickly when anyone mentions Nazis, though they seem to have lessened in their numbers.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
6. Uncertainty: nail on head.
You feel like you have to do something to stop what's happening, but what? Should you pack up your family and move? What if you move, and then a few months later things begin to go back to normal? No one else seems all that horrified -- even though you realize that if ten years ago you could look into the future, you'd be shocked.

What scares me most about the Bush administration is that in spite of its unpopularity, and in spite of the fact that most Americans believe we should get out of Iraq, in spite of the fact that scandals have dogged them from the beginning, they're just blithely going ahead with their agenda. They have not been even a tiny bit slowed.

The fall elections will tell us a little bit; of course, the election in 2008 will tell us a lot more. But if there is a fascist takeover -- or if it has already happened, but they have yet to tighten the screws -- it won't look like Nazi Germany. There won't be armbands. Our memories are too long. It will differ from Nazi Germany in a few obvious ways so that they can call dissenters "paranoid" and "alarmist" and even "disrespectful of those who died in the Holocaust."
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. I agree completely SJ. It will be only be different basically
in the lack of armbands and ovens. Technology has advanced to their advantage. Microwave emitters, noise attacks and most likely some "medications" to control the masses.

The disrespect that has been and will be claimed is their willingness to not protest what is happening. I could imagine that many of those that ignored the Holocaust then would view it much differently if given the chance.


Your papers please.

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RufusEarl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 09:02 AM
Response to Original message
7. But the one great shocking occasion
The only thing imho, that has had any effect on this admin was Katrina. That storm opened the eyes of allot of people, and as bad as that storm was on the poor folks of NOLA. It may have been a godsend for the country.
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. The Reichst, er, I mean 9/11
helped them so much in their quest, MIHOP or LIHOP, either way it worked perfectly.

Katrina was a wake-up call for some, but it still isn't sunk deep enough into their heads. It was nature calling and I still am hearing "they should have left when they still could". Sadly, I don't believe any natural disaster will effectively wake them up unless it is much more devastating to a major populace than even Katrina. How horrible that we could even consider Katrina as a godsend, but you are right. It helped, for awhile.

I don't want another 9/11 or Katrina-like catastrophe, but any event will have to surpass the previous death toll and destruction to seriously wake up most of the rest of the sheeple, imo. California sliding into the ocean is the magnitude they would understand, maybe. We would still hear "They choose to live there" bullshit from some, even then, and they would still blindly continue to follow the "leader".

I may be wrong, and wish I was, but...

Only time will tell now.


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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
9. Be back in a bit, grandson just arrived!
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
10. The Constitution was abrogated on December 12th, 2000.
There should have been mobs with pitchforks and torches
on the steps of the Supreme Court that night. And when
there were no mobs, the Busheviks knew they could get
away with *ANYTHING*.

Tesha
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. And they continue to
get away with everything! I had my pitchfork ready on that day Tesha. I have never been more enraged nor as disheartened as then. Now I'm just plain pissed.

Their audacity is unparalleled in US history. And their punishment should be also when it is determined.

We will prevail, somehow, someway.

We have to.
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. I agree. I thought we were going to the street. I was ready, but only the
black caucus said a word....
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-22-06 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #19
42. Many raised hell (not enough of us though), but there was no one
that cared to hear us.

Here is my attitude these days. Jefferson was a wise man.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. ... God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion; what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms." -- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787


What else is left to us?

It's been way past twenty years.

Peace
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renate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
15. no flames from me
With every new revelation about this administration, I think "this will get the people into the streets," but it just makes them grumble a bit, complain about Bush in an opinion poll, and go back to work to pay for the next $40 tank of gas.
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I keep thinking the same renate, and it never happens.
Edited on Wed Jun-21-06 02:03 PM by vickiss
The stress is almost unbearable at times.

And my disgust continues to grow directly proportionate to the lack of attention citizens give major red flags.

Is our country learning? Not yet.:crazy:

Unfortunately they will, in a harsh and brutal manner, in the near future. It will be the only way they will ever understand or act.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
17. K&R Excellent. WE are in a critical period.
I find caution on the part of moderates a) relatively rare and b) unacceptable unless they are totally divorced from current events. We are the majority- 60plus% oppose * and the war.

In order to get to the period of intense self examination, which will come, we have to get to reality...the neocons are the messengers of death, quite literally. No mater how comfortable our lives, that's the fact, it will not change.

Excellent discussion.
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #17
29. A majority is now against the war, but
they still have no clue as to how deep this regime's roots run. They only seem to think * fucked up, not that he is only one of many positioned into our society.

Messengers of death is a very apt description of them. Evil incarnate one and all.

As one DUer's sig line reads (sorry, cannot remember which one)- Where are we going? And why are we in this hand-basket?

The neocons can go to hell. I hope it's up close and very personal for the bastards. They deserve nothing less than to live a nightmare forever for what they have wrought.

Thanks for posting autorank. We will survive this - it's just a matter of how tough it will become to do so now and in the near future.

Only the very strongest souls are given the hardest lessons.

We shall endure.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. We shall!!! Thank YOU for posting. n/t
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-22-06 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #32
44. Most welcome! n/t
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BigBearJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
18. Girl, are we EVER on the same page. We're so used to getting hit
we're numb to the pain. There are SO SO many crimes being
committed, one after the other, that eventually it all almost
seems commonplace. The shock value is gone. "Gee, I never
thought he'd go THAT far!" I still shake my head in amazement
and disbelief in how much this country has changed and how
complacent is has become in the face of all these atrocities.

Seems like everybody is waiting for someone else to handle it.
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. I do feel a numbness John, but will never
find any comfort in it as do the sheeple. Those like us, with more unselfish hearts and brains that are used for more than selfish materialistic gains, cannot blind ourselves once we have seen with clarity, even if we tried. Though the numbers awakening are growing, those that would stand up and fight for our freedom are still in the minority, imo.

"Seems like everybody is waiting for someone else to handle it." Exactly right! Many that I've spoken with always answer "There's nothing I can do", even with suggestions to help guide them. We are doing as much as we can and they see it has been fairly ineffective against this regime. How can we convince the majority when we have busted our asses and have not gotten very far in stopping them, if anywhere at all?

The numbness actually is good in some ways. It allows us to go on fighting without being completely torn apart emotionally. The pubes have used the media for years to desensitize the public to atrocity and it's worse now than ever. It will possibly take an atrocity so unbelievable and heinous, even for us, to shake them from their slumber.

And with the media complicit, it may take months or years before it's even revealed. How terribly sad that it most likely will have to come to that to awaken them. The main problem will be in making it widely known with the media in *co's pockets.

They have so adeptly labeled anyone that questions them as "conspiracy theorists" and have convinced the citizen sheep that foreign news sources are *propaganda and unreliable in their reporting* that most never look further than the US media for answers. "The most trusted news source" "Fair and Balanced" - yeah, if you ask them!

The word on the e-voting fraud is finally starting to leak into the mainstream thanks to valiant efforts by many great people, yes- there is a but coming, but how many of the sheeple pay any attention to the intricate details of an election other than simply hearing who won?

I hope the anger has risen enough by Nov. to bring droves to the polls, but am afraid we'll get our usual turn-out of what? 35% in a good year? I'm telling people that unless the margin of votes is large enough for there to be NO questions, they will be able to be flip the numbers and retain power once again. And we know they will do it.

May the Universe help us to help ourselves, the neocons certainly won't.

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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
21. I am Jewish and from the former USSR and I have made the
same observation quite often, although I have basically called it Fascism. the Nazis were just a group employing it just like racism is something that the KKK adopted as their motto of choice.
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. I would imagine that those that refused to see then must have remained
ever vigilant to prevent such happenings again. I could not imagine they would ever forget the shame of what they allowed and helped to happen. I certainly never will forget the shame I feel when I hear of the atrocities being committed in our name, though it is not with my approval or consent.

How is the Jewish community reacting to the things they see happening here now Lala? I hear stories of elderly Jewish and German folks leaving here, but have no way of knowing if it is urban legend or actual events. I think I would spend the rest of my life paranoid and watchful after what they managed to survive.

Fascism, a tool for them, a curse on us all. They seem so "normal" to many (unlike those of us with the special glasses who see them as they are!), unlike the KKK's blatant in your face bullshit, making it so much easier for them to position themselves into power.

9/11 did change everything. It gave them the fear factor to facilitate further their heinous plans. Cui bono - an old but valuable adage.

How strange it feels that we are having these discussions in America now. I used to never believe it could happen here. Now I am afraid of missing a small but important detail that could assure us it would go no further. I hate being blind-sided.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. the first thing I thought when the news broke about gitmo and the
tossing of the geneva conventions I knew what we were in for. There will be much more suffering of our brave soldiers due to it. All the way until we have left Iraq. It will not be safe for an American to travel in the world for years to come. I think I would only be kidding myself if I didn't think that. The carnage is only beginning I'm afraid. Now that they, see what the reaction is here for the brutal slaying of the two soldiers, it will only encourage more of the same. At this point we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. The damage is done, the deeds are sealed. We have lots of enemy's now, way more than ever in history imo.
K & R
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. The tossing of the Geneva Conventions still stuns me a bit. Our
troops deserve better than to be made targets for torture and execution. How did they expect to "win" their "war" without protection for our troops? Or at least the facade of protection?

I know, their point is not to win, but to control and pillage. Are the current military leaders so complicit that they don't care what is happening to the troops? Where is the honor of standing up to illegal orders in the top brass? There was a major coup and no one bothered to tell us, imo.

We now have enemies that are 5 years old. Babs must be so very proud. Generations will live in fear, all for lies and greed.

Damned if we do and damned if we don't is a very clear description of where we stand at this time in US history. I planned on traveling the world in my older age. So much for that ever happening now.

Is a major revolution now the only salvation left to the US? If we were to take back control would it show the world we do not condone our government's actions and earn some hope for our future generations? Would that convince the world?

We may be down, but we're not out yet!

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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. If we can rise to the occasion and oust this madman it will go a long
way towards regaining the trust of the people of the world. The ball is in our court so to say, its what we do with it thats going to make or break this slide of our once great country into the abyss
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-22-06 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #30
45. * held the world in his hands on 9/11/01 and he spit
in it's face. And again after Katrina hit.

Is it time to heed Jefferson's wisdom NOW? I am tired of each new atrocity being condoned by the reich-wing.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. ... God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion; what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms." -- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787

How dare they force us to have to even consider Jefferson's advice!

bastards
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-22-06 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #23
38. I cannot speak for the Jewish community, but I can tell you
Edited on Thu Jun-22-06 05:27 PM by lala_rawraw
That my uber "American" parents - and I mean these people love America - have started talking about KGB type tactics and asking if we should leave. They say they are tired of running, but tell me that I should go. We have been here for 26 years... this is not something they would easily say.

My uncle, who lives in Ohio, called me crying a few months back. He too is uber patriotic and he too is saying USSR style government. As for Jewish in particular, the most I heard about Nazi Germany is when news of Gitmo and Abu appeared. The whole family said roughly the same thing and one of my neighbors too. Also, during the election of 04, an elderly man I was volunteering with told me about when he was little in Germany. I don't remember the exact words, but he was explaining why he was volunteering and he said something along the lines of being too young to stop it last time around. Very nice man.

I wrote a thing about my father going batty over the 04 election... don't remember where it is or the title, otherwise I would have linked to it.

In short, we are in a bad place when Jewish refugees from Ukraine tell you that America is becoming like the Soviets.
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-22-06 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. We are trying so hard to sound the alarm, to cry out the warning, but
it falls on deaf hearts.

We are the clarity the people need, but they laugh.

You work so hard at your site. I admire your tenacity and perseverance Lala. Your parents sound very wise to question whether you should leave. You are highly visible. You do good and it matters. Please take great care, things may deteriorate quickly.

Your family's wisdom, knowledge and vigilance will keep them from being blind-sided as many will be. We won't be among the stunned thankfully.

Please give your family a big hug from me. My heart broke when I read of your Uncle's sorrow. For your parents and yourself, your family, to feel safe for 26 years here and to now see visions of the past in their chosen home is a very alarming development. This is your CHOSEN home. That seems it would be even harder to have to see, much more so than just being born here.

It would have been nearly unimaginable five years ago to many of us. Tell them I am sorry we haven't been able to take these war criminals down - yet. It's certainly not for lack of good people trying.

If you ever find the link of your father reaction to 2004 I would be very interested in reading it. I went offline shortly after Kerry conceded due to my total shock and outrage. We worked so very hard. bastards.


Peace to you Lala,

vickiss
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-23-06 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #41
46. thank you...
my father is most hurt by it all, out of everyone. and after i posted the above, someone sent me a link to that essay i wrote a while back (so thanks you/SN).

mods, this is mine, so I am going to post the whole thing:

--

"We are going to a place where everyone is free," my father said to me on a Lvov (a city in what is now the Ukraine) train station platform roughly 27 years ago. At the time I did not understand what that really meant.

That sentence became my father’s mantra as we spent an entire year maneuvering our way throughout Europe in the common trajectory of Soviet refugees at the time. It was the sentence my father repeated to himself over and over as we were forced to live in cramped apartments in the underbelly of the various societies we passed through. My father, who had studied physics in Moscow, cleaned toilets and mopped rotting floors all over a European route that led us from Vienna to what would be our final pre-USA destination, Rome.

Both of my parents began dreaming in American concepts almost as soon as we landed in New York. My father was going to “live the American dream,” and “God bless America” became a daily exaltation. The American flag was affixed to every part of our lives: from the rusted Buick we managed to buy for a pittance, to every window in our house. If my mother had a sewing machine, I am almost certain that she would have made draperies of stars and stripes, reds, whites, and blues.

The proudest day for my father was the day he became a naturalized citizen. He made miniature copies of his naturalization certificate so that he could have a framed version in every room of our house. Voting was documented with equal zeal: photographs of my father standing in line to vote in various elections are still collected in scrapbooks and treated with the type of delectation usually reserved for pictures of newborn grandchildren.

My parents only bought American-made products, even if these products were more expensive. “It is our duty to help our country’s economy,” my father would drill. This nationalism was more than simply a reaction to or a backlash against Communism. This nationalism was idealistic. My father always called himself an American first, and a former Soviet refugee (prior to the liberation of the Ukraine) second.

Pictures of our family shared treasured wall space with past American heroes: Dr. King, Abraham Lincoln and JFK joined our family gallery along side my beloved grandfather who had died in a tragic car accident during our first year in America. The Bill of Rights shared wall space with my grandmother who had also died during our first year here. Every tragedy we experienced was somehow balanced by the greatness and simplicity of “we the people…” Everything in our lives was measured not “in coffee spoons,” rather, against the moral obligation to understand and to act in concordance with “all men are created equal.”

Four years ago, something about “we the people…” changed for my father. That change subtle; it was not discussed nor obvious in more than a few aspects of my parents’ lives. The most apparent changes occurred silently even while the resonance of those changes was all but deafening.

In December of 2000, I noticed that the yearly voting photo was not added to the scrapbook of my parents’ American dreaming. There was no doubt that both of my parents had indeed voted. Yet the annual celebration and documentation of the voting experience was largely missing, save for the “I voted today” sticker that my mother displayed on her shirt for the duration of the day.

I noticed that my father had become more introverted and less interested in discussing current events. His natural curiosity and passion for discussions drifted from summaries, to snapshots, and then simply, to echoes. My father had effectively become silent — on the world in general and on America in particular.

During these last four years the cleft between my father and his America grew ever- larger. It seemed not so much that he was moving away from his America; rather, it seemed that his America was being extracted from him.

Occasionally, my father still perused his scrapbooks, eyeing his 27-year love affair his country, his America. But his silence began to find an alternative voice; it morphed into a strange obsession with trivia, harmless topics and meaningless references. It was as though the entire world had been boiled down to irrelevant niceties distilled for my father’s observations.

Papa arrived in America with only $56 dollars in his pocket and promptly purchased a $32 dollar dress for my mother in celebration of freedom. That kind of optimism and brightness of spirit hemorrhaged in earnestness during the 2004 election. The voracious negativity of the Bush-Cheney machine went beyond any common sense of purpose or decency. I watched in horror as the election became a game of who could out-lie, out-confuse, out-incite and out-humiliate in order to win. Citizens were played against citizens much like pawns. Private beliefs were hijacked and wielded with razor-sharp precision, with little regard as to what happens to the wounds after the game is won.

I watched in obvious horror, though my father simply remained blank. He would not speak of the election. He would not even speak about the war in Iraq.

When the 2004 election came off with a whimper, without question, my father began to forget basic things: his keys, his wallet, his false teeth. He forgot that he was being called “un-American” because of his Kerry bumper sticker. He forgot that because he voted for Kerry, he was called “immoral” and “unpatriotic.” He simply forgot where he put his checkbook just as much as he forgot how he had stood in line for several hours in order to vote. My father, vacant throughout the campaign, was now almost entirely splintered.

Then something astonishing and completely unexpected happened: Ukrainian citizens took to the streets in protest of what they felt to be a rigged election.

At first my father let this news unfold with guarded interest. He watched the Russian news via satellite in sessions of a few minutes at a time. I felt as though I was watching a child learning to walk; each step was anxious, nerve-racking and exciting all at the same time. At first my father watched the news as though through the corner of his eye, afraid to look on directly for fear of what he would or would not see. Then he began to watch face-forward but with frequent breaks. Then came the pacing while watching, back and forth, back and forth, but watching nevertheless and head-on as the fight for democracy became louder and stronger.

We watched in awe as journalists resigned to join their fellow citizens out in the square. Ukrainian people, my former forced comrades were now evoking their democratic right to a fair vote. Poor and rich alike, old and young alike, religious and non-religious alike, came together to fight for their voices to be heard. We watched on, together, as they spent night after night protesting in the cold.

Several days into this truly historic event, my father suddenly un-forgot. This was not a gradual process of the mind unfolding slowly, tentatively, probing around for memories of keys, wallets and the like. No, this was a sudden snap to awareness; a thought-to-thought instant reconstruction of from “then” up until “now.”

For the first time in four years, my father found something to talk about, cry about, yell about, and simply just live about. Perhaps my father recognized his own reflection in a 27-year old mirror, recalling his last day in the Ukraine, at a train station in Lvov where he told his six year old daughter of “a place where everyone is free.” I think my father un-forgot so that I would not forget my own reflection of his/our America; a vision that has always been based upon the following moral value that we can no longer take for granted:

“We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity…”

~Preamble, The Constitution of the United States of America


http://www.rawstory.com/exclusives/larisa/losing_america_ukraine_democracy_1201.htm
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
25. It's so easy,the milgram
experiments at stanford proved how powerful denial is in the face of abuse of power..

I mean after all someone after I honestly said what I thought about civilization not being able to sustain itself,said I should call myself bundle of joy..

I can't imagine being anything near a 'bundle of joy 'right now,because unlike alot of people I see everyday fiddling around while the country burns, my denial gland and my every things gonna be just fine muscles got busted up when I got pstd.And I cannot close my eyes..
I remember something important said about freedom that freedom requires eternal vigilance? Being vilagent is not about saying don't worry..and going about your day like all is fine.If Germany had been more vilagent and less inclined to wait for someone else to lead and didn't shift responsibility to someone else,as people do in groups when a tragedy happens so no one does anything..would history have been different?
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. I just found your reply UGP and will give you a
Edited on Wed Jun-21-06 10:43 PM by vickiss
well-thought out response in the a.m.

Long day with 5 yo grandson and many replies.

My daughter doesn't sleep either. I know that makes the PTSD that much harder to deal with. My heart goes out to you so deeply on this. I know how hard it is to witness the suffering from it, much less having to live with it each day, it is often pain beyond words. :hug:

I will enjoy discussing your thoughts on vigilance very much on the morrow.

Hang in there. We shall survive this also.



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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-22-06 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #25
40. I've been thinking quite a bit since reading your reply.
Edited on Thu Jun-22-06 09:34 PM by vickiss
I so wanted to say something profound that would somehow ease your pain a little. I can't. Our vigilance is not in vain though, we have sounded the alarms, we cry out the warnings, if they choose not to listen they will pay an extremely high price for their chosen ignorance in the end. We will at least have had time to prepare somewhat. They will be blind-sided.

I found the quote you referred to:

"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty." -- Wendell Phillips, (1811-1884), abolitionist, orator and columnist for The Liberator, in a speech before the Massachusetts Antislavery Society in 1852, according to The Dictionary of Quotations edited by Bergen Evans


And one from Jefferson that has haunted my thoughts since * stole the country:

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. ... God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion; what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms." -- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787

The world would have been far different if everyone had done as you asked.

I am just hanging on, waiting.

Please know I admire you for your courage and heart undergroundpanther. Your passion in speaking out on so many vital issues is so moving. I have cried many times reading your posts. I rarely say anything because you have usually covered things quite well and I am in awe of your strength and knowledge.

I had hoped we were all wrong, that we were "alarmists" - we are not even close to that description.

We are clarity.

I wish we were wrong.

Don't forget karma. Justice will be served though we may never see it. I have to take some small satisfaction in that or lose my mind completely. Bi-polar is hell at times.:hug:

Peace,

vickiss


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Bosso 63 Donating Member (759 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-22-06 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
33. The gates of Hell are now open.
And it's like no one notices. I find that to be the creepiest part. Sometimes I just want to scream "Wake the f*%#up people!"
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-22-06 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. I used to scream it at the telly all the time.
Finally had to just quit watching it much. Now I just think "wake the fuck up assholes" each day reading the news.

I agree, many don't even notice and it is creepy. It's like we're a country of pod people.

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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-22-06 04:36 AM
Response to Original message
34. "when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you"
Well, a hundred million plus joined us in protesting the invasion, to no avail. Also, I don't think that opposition group membership is shrinking--I think that just the opposite is occuring, though the media makes it seem like that isn't happening.

Also, the fake patriotic "stories" don't seem to have much traction--Jessica Lynch, the "flight suit," even the faked Saddam capture don't seem to have anywhere near the impact of the Nuremburg rallies.
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-22-06 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. Fake everything with this government.
Fake freedom, fake Christianity, fake wars.


The message didn't get through the thicks skulls when millions protested. We will have to change the method we use to be heard.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. ... God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion; what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms." -- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787

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SlipperySlope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-22-06 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
37. I've seen this with my very own eyes:
"Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for the one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow."

First they put a tax stamp on machine guns.
Then they made gun dealers register.
Then they prohibited mail order purchases.
Then they banned all new machine guns.
Then some states started registering purchases.
They they banned high-cap magazines.
Then they went after saturday night specials.
Now they want to take out .50 BMG.

This frog knows the water is boiling, and can't understand why the hell the rest of the frogs are croaking their hearts out.

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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-22-06 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Shuddering here.
Funny, 5 years ago if anyone had told me I'd be thinking about getting a gun I would have laughed in their face.

No longer.

The water is nearing a boil now isn't it?

bastards.
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