Oh FUCK this is scary..

[undergroundpanther]

I know this article is from a right wing site,
but dammit..look at what it is saying!!..scary..shit..


North American Union Would Trump U.S. Supreme Court

by Jerome R. Corsi
Posted Jun 19, 2006


The Bush Administration is pushing to create a North American Union out of the work on-going in the Department of Commerce under the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America in the NAFTA office headed by Geri Word. A key part of the plan is to expand the NAFTA tribunals into a North American Union court system that would have supremacy over all U.S. law, even over the U.S. Supreme Court, in any matter related to the trilateral political and economic integration of the United States, Canada and Mexico.

Right now, Chapter 11 of the NAFTA agreement allows a private NAFTA foreign investor to sue the U.S. government if the investor believes a state or federal law damages the investor’s NAFTA business.

Under Chapter 11, NAFTA establishes a tribunal that conducts a behind closed-doors “trial” to decide the case according to the legal principals established by either the World Bank’s International Centre for the Settlement of Investment Disputes or the UN’s Commission for International Trade Law. If the decision is adverse to the U.S., the NAFTA tribunal can impose its decision as final, trumping U.S. law, even as decided by the U.S. Supreme Court. U.S. laws can be effectively overturned and the NAFTA Chapter 11 tribunal can impose millions or billions of dollars in fines on the U.S. government, to be paid ultimately by the U.S. taxpayer.h ****American Union Would Trump U.S. Supreme Court****


http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=15623


WTF is this North American Union Bullshit..a coup to TRUMP THE SUPREME COURT!! Is Bush setting up another government to disable this one? Is this fucking North American union the secret shadow govt.that has been set up in the coming out to the light of day this way?
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0203/01/asb.00.html
http://transcripts.cnn.com/2002/US/03/01/shadow.government/index.html

[NYCGirl]

1. It's written by the swiftboat jerkoff, Corsi. It's a load of crap. NT

[undergroundpanther]

3. It is?

I sure hope so.
I hate these fuckers I swear I do and I don't put it past these wingnuts to try something like that.

[Wrinkle_In_Time]

47. What do you mean: "It is?" Didn't you research it?

Don't you do any research on the things that you read before posting them on DU with such an excited headline as "Oh FUCK this is scary.."? How do you know if it is scary unless you dig a little deeper?

It may well be a steaming pile of excrement: especially if Corsi is involved.

Yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre because your nachos are too hot is usually frowned upon by the other patrons.

[undergroundpanther]

56. It's not a steaming pile

I had researched into globalism before and the north american trade stuff,this seemed a next step,considering The shit with the "Unitary executive" and all the other unconstitutional shit bush has pulled,like stealing 2 elections....And the fact he wanted OUR ports to go to Dubai ..Look at all the corporate shenanigans and corporate interference going on.Bush is making laws just for corporations,like the New Freedom commission.And Energy regulation,wonder why his oil buddies never get caught price gouging..coinkidink or is cronyism and corruption.....It all adds up. And there is THIS link too . So Pardon moi if this scares the crap outta me. It should scare more people,frankly.Why it doesen't bothers me.

http://www.spp.gov/

[Techno Dog]

81. Would free flow of labor

Scare the crap out of you?

[pnwmom]

67. Maybe you should read the article yourself before you scold the

poster.

It contains plenty of links that would allow anyone to research the issue themselves. Such as this one:

http://www.nafta-sec-alena.org/DefaultSite/index_e.aspx?DetailID=8#chap11

NAFTA is one more of those issues that crosses party lines. Plenty of conservative Republicans -- like Pat Buchanan, for one -- are populists who hate NAFTA. While I've never heard them use the word "corporatist" they seem to be just as worried about them as the Nader types.

Yes, Corsi is the dregs, but "politics make strange bedfellows," as they say. On this issue, he may be right.

[Yollam]

10. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

NAFTA, CAFTA and FTAA and every bit as bad as the article states - and that's the future the DLC and GOP want for us.


SInce it's such a " load of crap" would you care to address any of the details of the article that you feel are outright lies?

[undergroundpanther]

15. I don't think it's lies

I can see the "relations" with Canada us and mexico,I know what the globalist thugs want..And I am scared shit-less frankly And I don't know why it's bullshit to this guy either like you said a stopped clock is right twice a day..It's that time.

[LittleClarkie]

17. So he's only right when he's saying something we like, and wrong

when he's saying something we don't like?

Hey, if you want to trust the Wayne Madsen of the Right, knock yourself out. But I think it's going to bite you in the ass in the end.

[undergroundpanther]

23. Do you ever pay attention to what the globalists are doing?

It's not LEFT VS RIGHT here..
http://www.gonewiththeworld.com/

Mother jones is left..http://www.motherjones.com/arts/books/2006/05/empires_workshop.html
More..
http://www.canadiansocialresearch.net/global.htm
Ten reasons to oppose nafta
http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/ftaa/topten.html

[LittleClarkie]

26. Groovy. Use any source you like. But not that bigoted scumball

His stretching of the truth will bite you in the ass.

[undergroundpanther]

30. I dunno if he is stretching or not

You never know with adherents of Leo Strauss what is true and what is not.

[Lusted4]

57. Bill Moyers did a program called Trading Democracy that

explains chapter 11 of NAFTA and yes U.S. courts are powerless to do anything.

[and-justice-for-all]

94. The Nazi Party will not be RE-Televised

If it ever (which it will not) came to that, the minute they take over (which they will not) pack essentials, burn the rest, head North.

[MadMaddie]

2. A Civil war will occur in this country if something like this happens

and each and every member of the * cabal will be you fill in the blank.....__ __ __ __! (Prosecuted)

[1620rock]

5. Umm, I think that what they are saying is: This will happen if a..

..Democrat is elected. Ergo, vote Republican if you know what is good for you.

[Yollam]

11. This is what will happen under either party...

...Unless the people get out in the streets and make a lot of noise.

[shance]

13. Oh really? Is it going to happen from our sofas?

Give me a break.

Right now, Americans are like a bunch of zoned out herefords.

[MisoWeaver]

34. I believe this is true

But I think it will be a war of the government vs. the people of this country.

Its not just Bush and the like
Its not just Clinton and the like

It all of them and they must be stopped.

I will definately take up arms against this!

[originalpckelly]

86. There really is going to be a civil war...I have foreseen it.

I have been trying little things to prevent it.

Warren Jeffs, if arrested in a violent confrontation, will be the start. Republicans will feel betrayed by their own and they will recognize all of the bad things that have been happening the past year.

Think about Waco and how pissed off all those nuts were. I call them the Waco Right, and they will begin doing "bad things" if this man or some of his followers are killed in a violent conflict.

I actually considered looking for the guy myself, so that I could ensure it was a non-violent capture, but I don't really have the ability.

There may be no way to stop this horrible calamity.

For those who know the American people are lazy, you're right, but not all Americans are. In fact in the scenario I am afraid of the American people will continue to allow their freedoms to be taken away. They will allow the government to gain absolute control. This will cause further extremism.

There will be terrorist attacks committed by these Waco Right people. This is the war I speak of. It may never grow into anything more, but it will be civil war.

[paparush]

89. Sheeple say baaah...must be good for us...baaaaahhh

[The Backlash Cometh]

4. Don't worry. Once Bush realizes that an international tribunal is going

to come after his ass over Iraq, he'll be back to supporting State's Rights.

[undergroundpanther]

6. It just scared the shit out of me

And even though it's wing nut assholes writing this,and even if it's total bullshit I can never be 100% sure after all these fuckers Love Leo Strauss and Strauss thought it was a statesman's duty to lie to the people.. So pardon me if I don't put it past these thugs to try to attempt such a thing,really I don't.
I don't like them I don't trust them and considering all the crimes they've gotten away with..I am suspicious and not totally without cause here dont'cha think?

[shance]

14. The last thing we need to be doing is not worrying. Germans were in

denial as well. Look how they fared.

[undergroundpanther]

18. And I wish more people would quit calling

it lies The Globalists ARE a big threat. HUGE threat to humanity. And so many people got their head in sand about it. They just see a little picture,they look at my finger and not at the moon I am pointing at,and when you say look at the moon they scream Tin Foil! Dammit. I am so frustrated about the denial I could scream. But it's not like they'd listen to me either way.

[rman]

99. Some people think globalism is not a threat to the US,

and they are of the opinion that that's the only thing that matters. They don't care about humanity.

[paparush]

90. You need to get familiar with the AMERICAN SERVICEMEMBERS PROTECTION ACT-

SEC. 2008. AUTHORITY TO FREE MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES OF THE UNITED STATES AND CERTAIN OTHER PERSONS DETAINED OR IMPRISONED BY OR ON BEHALF OF THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT.

1. AUTHORITY- The President is authorized to use all means necessary and appropriate to bring about the release of any person described in subsection (b) who is being detained or imprisoned by, on behalf of, or at the request of the International Criminal Court.

2. PERSONS AUTHORIZED TO BE FREED- The authority of subsection (a) shall extend to the following persons:

1. Covered United States persons.

2. Covered allied persons.

3. Individuals detained or imprisoned for official actions taken while the individual was a covered United States person or a covered allied person, and in the case of a covered allied person, upon the request of such government.

http://www.state.gov/t/pm/rls/othr/misc/23425.htm

[Minnesota Libra]

7. Talk about a Fascist State..........

....it is scary and the neocons are all for it.:banghead:

[undergroundpanther]

53. Because they are sociopaths

authoritarians,it's NATURAL for them.
And so they see it as a GOOD thing. I don't know why DU can't get that..that is WHY you have to observe the enemy and look at what they say sometimes.Because they want a fascist state they sometimres cannot contain thier joy in every advance thier agenda makes..

[Minnesota Libra]

82. You got it, where some people think neocons will eventually see........

.....light our way and someday change, the neocons indeed see things our way and vow never to change.:wow: Now if we could just convince fellow liberals to see the way life with neocons really is.

[atommom]

8. There's another thread on this, and I posted a link to the actual

document that the NAU was supposed to have been based on. I said I'd read the whole thing and comment, but sadly, I've been running around doing other things all day. So I encourage others to read the thread, and the document in question, and I'll catch up with you tomorrow. ;) Have to say I'm skeptical that Corsi is presenting these developments in a balanced fashion. So far it's mostly getting covered by angry RWers ... links are in the following thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2685652&mesg_id=2685652

The CFR report: http://www.cfr.org/content/publications/attachments/NorthAmerica_TF_final.pdf

[undergroundpanther]

12. This still bothers me

WASHINGTON President Bush has quietly claimed the authority to disobey more than 750 laws enacted since he took office, asserting that he has the power to set aside any statute passed by Congress when it conflicts with his interpretation of the Constitution.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/04/30/america/web.0430bush.php

Bush's signing statement: The president has the power to control the actions of all executive branch officials, so ''the director of the Institute of Education Sciences shall subject to the supervision and direction of the secretary of education."
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/04/30/examples_of_the_presidents_signing_statements/

And
The numbers tell only part of the story, said Phillip Cooper, a professor of government administration at Portland State University who has studied signing statements and other executive actions.

"This administration has been much more systematic and much broader in scope'' in signing statements, Cooper said, on its "path to expand presidential powers at the expense of Congress and the courts.''
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/05/07/SIGNING.TMP

This really bugs me..
http://w01.international.gc.ca/MinPub/Publication.asp?publication_id=380766&Language=E
http://www.cceia.org/viewMedia.php/prmID/699

[atommom]

25. Yes, given the people who are involved in this,

it probably will spell exploitation for many, and gigantic profits for a very few. Who knows what's hidden in those signing statements? Given what they've already done, we're justified in fearing the worst.

What I think will be interesting will be the fight between the neocons who want free trade, and the rank-and-file Republicans who fear the consequences of an arrangement like this. Will it ultimately drive a wedge between them, and leave the Dems an opening? And if so, can the Dems not fuck it up, and save us?

I'm still waiting for the administration to acknowledge that this story is being reported....

[Warpy]

9. This isn't new

We've been hearing about Chapter 11 since Clinton was stupid enough to ram this stinker through without reading it fully. It has been invoked a couple of times by Canada during disputes over labor and environmental practices.

It's just been hushed up in the press so Joe Sixpack won't take time out from watching beer and car commercials to get annoyed.

[hansberrym]

16. Why are there so many Bush defenders in these parts?

[LittleClarkie]

19. What ARE you talking about dear?

Hmm?

[genieroze]

20. Add this and you can see a picture forming

Bush Administration Quietly Plans NAFTA Super Highway

by Jerome R. Corsi
Posted Jun 12, 2006



Quietly but systematically, the Bush Administration is advancing the plan to build a huge NAFTA Super Highway, four football-fields-wide, through the heart of the U.S. along Interstate 35, from the Mexican border at Laredo, Tex., to the Canadian border north of Duluth, Minn.



Once complete, the new road will allow containers from the Far East to enter the United States through the Mexican port of Lazaro Cardenas, bypassing the Longshoreman’s Union in the process. The Mexican trucks, without the involvement of the Teamsters Union, will drive on what will be the nation’s most modern highway straight into the heart of America. The Mexican trucks will cross border in FAST lanes, checked only electronically by the new “SENTRI” system. The first customs stop will be a Mexican customs office in Kansas City, their new Smart Port complex, a facility being built for Mexico at a cost of $3 million to the U.S. taxpayers in Kansas City.

As incredible as this plan may seem to some readers, the first Trans-Texas Corridor segment of the NAFTA Super Highway is ready to begin construction next year. Various U.S. government agencies, dozens of state agencies, and scores of private NGOs (non-governmental organizations) have been working behind the scenes to create the NAFTA Super Highway, despite the lack of comment on the plan by President Bush. The American public is largely asleep to this key piece of the coming “North American Union” that government planners in the new trilateral region of United States, Canada and Mexico are about to drive into reality.

Just examine the following websites to get a feel for the magnitude of NAFTA Super Highway planning that has been going on without any new congressional legislation directly authorizing the construction of the planned international corridor through the center of the country.

http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=15497

[LittleClarkie]

21. Oh sure. He's always been a trusted source before, hasn't he...

[undergroundpanther]

40. explain this link if it's all crap than..

http://www.spp.gov/

[hiley]

83. exactly

you got some splaining to do Lucy.

[AX10]

22. Swiftboater Jerry Corsi???

I don't believe him.

[undergroundpanther]

27. Corsi is an asshole

But..Nafta and globalism is a REAL THREAT.And I dunno about you but it could be he has NO CLUE why what he is saying is so bad.He might be a liar about his enemies but why would he lie about the monsters he fawns over?
And I don't doubt the Neocons are globalists (Bush is in the top 1 percent wealthy ,attends the unaccountable to anybody totally secret meetings of that globalist international cabal of g-8 thugs)and I think these money grubbing control freak monsters in suits would want such a thing as this.
Corsi is a mouthpiece for his neocon buddies,and he is just stating what he buddies wet dreams are.. I think.

[genieroze]

24. Maybe someone should e-mail Corsi and remind him that he helped

bring this about by licking the Lizard Kings ass.

[Marr]

28. Sorry, but the guy just isn't credible. He seems to have a desperate

need for recognition or something. I wouldn't put such an act past the Bush Administration, but c'mon- this guy seems like a loon.

[meti57b]

29. Here's our government's website on it ......http://www.spp.gov/

http://www.spp.gov/

[undergroundpanther]

31. oh my goddess it is real than..

??? Shit it is??IS IT??? Did I see what I think I saw? at your link?

[meti57b]

33. Yes it is real .....

They are building a highway from the Mexican border to the Canadian border, right through the United States on a 1200ft R.W. Construction of the portion through Texas is set to begin next year or something. The contract has been awarded to a company in Spain.

One of the objectives of that is to develop ports in Mexico to bypass the Port of Los Angeles and Port of Long Beach. Among other things, they can bypass the Teamsters and Longshoreman's unions and take advantage of cheap labor in Mexico.

I first heard about this two days ago on Bill Handel's program, during the morning drive, KFI 640am radio in Los Angeles.

The discussion on the program is that there will be a North American Union comprised of Canada, Mexico and the United States and it will be like the EU.

[johnaries]

55. I couldn't find anything on that site about a new court.

I even did a Google search on it. Nada.

edit: Google "tribunal" - zilch.
Google "legal" - several references to working within "respective legal systems"

The article about a new court appears to be crap.

[Bjorn Against]

32. I don't trust Corsi either, but I still believe the story is true

I did a research paper on NAFTA's chapter 11 a couple years back, and I got much of this information from alternative sources. While the revelation about the Bush Administration is new, the basic information about Chapter 11 was reported on by reputable sources long before Corsi picked this up.

No Corsi is not a reputable source, but that does not mean this story is false. Bill Moyers who is a great journalist in every sense of the word ran a very similar story to this one on NOW a couple years back. I will wait for a better source than Corsi before I start repeating the new information, but I have no doubt this is something Bush would do.

[undergroundpanther]

35. That's my whole point

This story needs to be watched..and CLOSE.
If A fuck-wad like corsi is bragging..What does that mean..
And what does it say about how secure these arrogant fucks feel reveling in their evil ideas.

[LittleClarkie]

36. Then he must be right about this stuff as well

Corsi on Islam: "a worthless, dangerous Satanic religion"

Corsi on Catholicism: "Boy buggering in both Islam and Catholicism is okay with the Pope as long as it isn't reported by the liberal press"

Corsi on Muslims: "RAGHEADS are Boy-Bumpers as clearly as they are Women-Haters -- it all goes together"

Corsi on "John F*ing Commie Kerry": "After he married TerRAHsa, didn't John Kerry begin practicing Judiasm? He also has paternal grandparents that were Jewish. What religion is John Kerry?"

Corsi on Senator "FAT HOG" Clinton: "Anybody ask why HELLary couldn't keep BJ Bill satisfied? Not lesbo or anything, is she?"

[genieroze]

37. He's not right but this is

http://www.spp.gov/

[undergroundpanther]

38. He's an asshole no doubt about it.

But..Hitler was an asshole too and he is quoted by liberals to show the dangers of an authoritarian state and how people are manipulated by leaders.Hitler was right about his techniques of how to manipulate people and drive a country into fascism,he did it.
Corsi and asshole to,is a stopped clock ,And a stopped clock no matter how big of a hole it has,can be right 2 times a day. And this might be one time.
We will have to see, Other liberal sources have reported this stuff too just not the same way yet....and also I don't put it past the Bush Cabal to try something evil like this,they are all strauss-ian neocon monsters IMHO .

[ProSense]

41. If it's reported by reputable sources, why are you pushing this liar?

And who the hell keeps recommending this kook?

[Bjorn Against]

65. Here is a link to a more reputable source

http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript_tdfull.html

It is a couple years old, but Bill Moyers is one of the greatest journalists of all time. I agree that Corsi is a kook, but on this one issue he is right. I do however think that we at DU should be able to find better sources than him. Even though the Corsi article is far more recent than the Moyers special, Moyers is such a far superior source that he should still take precedence.

[Lusted4]

66. Here is a good link

http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/tradingdemocracy2.html

[Bjorn Against]

44. What part of "I don't trust Corsi" don't you understand?

I said he was not a reputable source, but that does not make this particular story false. NAFTA has been reported on by many sources besides Corsi. While there is some new information revealed here which I will wait to hear reported on by other sources before I run with it, that information does not go far beyond what has been reported by people like Bill Moyers in the past.

I don't trust Corsi, but I do trust Bill Moyers.

[LittleClarkie]

45. Great. So quote Bill Moyers then

Corsi doesn't belong on DU.

[undergroundpanther]

51. Corsi said something

I thought could be a threat to the United states and democracy itself.
Bill Moyers has said it too. If you think corsi because of his asshole problem isn't telling something real out of his vile mouth,
why did Moyer's say it too?
Could it be sometimes you have to look at the story by itself on it's own merits as INFORMATION..and put aside the mouth spewing it out for a second to see what the information might be in there?

Is a maintaining a taboo ban on a stupid asshole more important than maybe getting a piece of serious information that might mean something very serious to all of us?

At what point do you back burner your bias in an investigation? Never? Or sometimes? You are capable of sorting through info,regardless of the idiocy of the writers and their dumbass opinions and bigoted stupidity right,you can use DISCERNMENT beyond ooh author is evil so I must reject everything he says as lies automatically. When is this attitude just an excuse to be reactionary?? Sure read this with caution,but ask questions too.

For the Record I AGREE.. CORZI IS AN ASSHOLE.99.9% I'd say yes keep his sorry ass off DU forever .. But this one time..he might be saying something we might actually want to investigate for awhile and wait to see if other sources get a better scoop on this issue than his crappy ass.

You know what they say, keep your Friends close,and your enemies closer.You might get a heads up when the neocons pull some bad shit.

[NYCGirl]

58. Then post the Moyers link! NT

[Bjorn Against]

61. Here is the link to the Bill Moyers transcript

http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript_tdfull.html

It is from a NOW special called "Trading Democracy", if you can find a copy of the video I highly recommend watching it.

[Bjorn Against]

62. Here is the link

http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript_tdfull.html

It is a couple years old, but you will see it relates very closely to what Corsi was saying. And by the way I agree fully that we need to cite better people than Corsi, if it were me that put up the OP I would have never chosen him as the key source. That does not however mean that I think he is wrong in this particular instance.

[Lusted4]

69. Lets all not forget who put his name on NAFTA n/t

[Lusted4]

70. Who?

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104566.html

[ProSense]

39. Swift Liars are scary. See

The battlefield where the devil has amassed his greatest forces and is thrusting his deadliest armies is the surrender of our national sovereignty and independence, and the creation of global government! Yes, Martha, the devil has targeted the United States for destruction, and he is using our own political leaders to do his diabolical work! Furthermore, unless God awakens His people, especially His preachers, America's fall will be swift, and few will even notice that it happened-until it's too late.

Obviously, the surrender of our independence has been ongoing for some time. However, under Bill Clinton and especially under G.W. Bush, the pace has quickened exponentially! Doubtless, the biggest reason President Bush has more aggressively hastened the pace of America's merger into supranational government is because he enjoys widespread support among evangelical Christians. Absent opposition from Christian leaders, G.W. Bush has virtually had a free hand. And please know this: before Bush was a Republican, before he was a "conservative," before he was a Christian, he was and is a globalist, as was his father and grandfather before him!

Of course, the other reason Bush has been free to behave lawlessly is due to the fact that the GOP controls both houses of Congress. Absent political opposition from the legislature (or the national media, for that matter), Bush has virtually no impediment to his actions. For all intents and purposes, President Bush has been able to conduct business as a de facto dictator. There are no checks and balances at work today.

Because our national Christian leaders are content to revel in the lap of political cronyism with President Bush, they have abandoned their positions as watchmen on the wall. Instead of being watchmen and heralds of truth, they have become political lackeys and toadies for Bush. As a result, the message of truth must be carried by others. At the moment, I don't know anyone who is more faithfully engaged in the real battle for America than Jerome Corsi.

more...

http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/baldwin/060610

No wonder these people are so successful! Why the hell would anyone claim to believe any part of what these wingnut liars say?

[undergroundpanther]

46. They lie

But do they lie about their own fantasies of full spectrum domination?
No they don't, because like true sociopaths they brag about it among their own kind,it's when it gets leaked to people like us who would deny the sociopaths the power they seek ,they spin it as something else..
Dammit They lie about everything TO US..To The "public" .Strauss-ian philosophy is a cornerstone to their neocon idealogy,remember...... The exception to lie as usual,is when they are speaking around the same kind of asshole secretive super rich sociopath people that they themselves are,Listen when they are speaking to each other as they circle jerk over new ways to do cheap labor,steal resources from other countries, assert brutal domination and exploitation and dupe people into not thinking that is what they are doing,and get off on duping the masses and how stupid we sheep/slaves are. That is how these bullies think are they have no human soul..But they are smart enough to lie to us and speak to each other about their evil dreams without prettying it up.
They are a bunch of sociopaths getting off on dominsating a society that is stratified according to how sociopathic each segement of said population is..and when they tell the truth and it gets to us it's a leak when they tell the truth to thier own kind it's a circle jerk. that's why.

[ProSense]

49. No exceptions or justifications, they are liars! n/t

[TreasonousBastard]

42. Coupla small points...

the Constitution says treaties are the ultimate law of the land, even trumping the Constitution itself, so we've been there a while already.

Whilst Shrubco might be behind this thing for various reasons, I can't imagine how they would let Canada and Mexico run the show. If anything, it's to control Canada and Mexico while using them for their own ends here.

I'm not sure I understand all the hysteria about globalization on a Progressive board-- it's the kind of thing we used to hear a lot of from the milita types terrified of blue helmets taking over the country. Yes, there are some really bad aspects to globalization, but has anyone noticed that it IS possible for globalization to bring peace and prosperity to parts of the globe where it has been hitherto unknown? Rather than just piss against the winds of globalization, which cannot be stopped anyway, why not try to direct it so it does little harm and much good?

Oh, and fuck Corsi. He's putting a ridiculous spin on this whole thing.

[hansberrym]

48. That's complete neocon BS, Treaties do not trump the constitution,

nor would I call it progressive to argue for the destruction of government of the people, for the people, and by the people. To be replaced by what? perhaps global government of the corporations, for the corporations, and of the corporations?


Resistance is futile has always been the rant of tyrrants.

[genieroze]

50. What Constitution, King Lizard uses it for toilet paper.

[hansberrym]

54. Yeah, but that's no reason to help the Neocons flush it

down the toilet, as some of the other posters in this thread seem more than happy to do.

Good links earlier!

[undergroundpanther]

52. Bush has already disregarded the consitution..

Remember UNITIARY EXECUTIVE??
http://uniorb.com/RCHECK/kingbush.htm

[hansberrym]

64. Agree completely .

But Bush does have his supporters. Maybe they don't actually like the man, but they sure are supporting his Neocon policies. Why? Could it be that many here agree with Bush's New World Order crap?

I am amazed that on this progressive board, any attempt to shed light Bush's ultimate goals is opposed so stridently. Sure, nearly all will voice their disgust about Bush's illegal war, spying on citizens, running down of USA's image in the world, etc. -but just try to open people's eyes to the big picture and your posts will be attacked.

[ProSense]

68. Stop trying to justify BS RW propaganda! Do you really believe

Corsi wants to attack Bush for anything? Give me a break! People need to wise the hell up. NAFTA isn't new: and this alarmist post is just the kind of crap propaganda is designed to evoke!

[LittleClarkie]

72. Use a reputable source and you can expose any little thing you want

You have not done that. You've used a wingnut to prove the story. Hence, the animosity.

[hansberrym]

73. Bill Moyers isn't reputable? You asked for that link and you

got it from another post more than an hour ago -yet you persist.

Why?

[LittleClarkie]

74. You're complaining about being attacked

I'm explaining why it happened. Corsi = attack. If the OP would have posted Moyers INSTEAD, no attack would have been forthcoming. See how that works?

And yes, thank you for the link.

[hansberrym]

75. You original objection was answered and yet you continue

as if the answer was not provided. Why?

[TreasonousBastard]

63. I doubt any neocon would ever...

cede Constitutional authority under any circumstances, particularly to a foreign power.

At any rate, the Treaty Clause is a bit vague, and was a hot topic during the constitutional convention, with much fear that it would actually trump US law. Madison, Hamilton, and others argued that treaties must be mentioned for what seems obvious reasons. There has been little Court opinion on just what it really means, but at least one Court decision left things open.

Be that as it may, the closed borders/protect us at all costs attitude still does not seem to be all that appropriate for a progressive board. We all know the problems, but no one who just rails against the horrors of globalization ever seems to have any productive ideas of just how to stop it. Or why it should be stopped.

What do we get by leaving the Third World in poverty, disease and misery? We're not talking the White Man's |Burden every time we talk about things outside of our borders, but could be talking about raising living standards, education and environmental protection out there.

Why just rail gainst it instead of using it for good?

[hansberrym]

71. WTO, NAFTA, CAFTA - why would you claim that no Neocon

would ever cede Constitutional authority, when that has been the great, though greatly downplayed, object of the Neocons for the last two decades? I don't think it was the progressives who wrote into these agreements provisions that would allow foreign companies to sue US federal state and local governments outside our own court system.


This is vague?

"This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding."

I guess if one ignores all the words prior to "all traties made" then one could reach the conclusion you seem to think reasonable. But then one can also mangle the constitution to come to the conclusion that the Unitary Executive has unlimited power, can tap phones at will, imprison citizens without trial, and leap tall buildings in a single bound -if one is a Neocon.


"Closed borders"?
Our borders are not closed to goods or people by any rational definition of the word, but that does not mean that we ought to give citizenship or resident status to anyone who overstays a visa, or walks across the border illegally. Nor should we allow US companies to hire illegals aliens as they please.

[rman]

80. shouldn't - but the treaties say different.

see
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1472032&mesg_id=1473938

[bridgit]

43. sure, seen that coming, the whole idea of commerce, corporations...

and globalization is anti-democratic; to further circumvent democratic process & sovereign nation status in lieu of whatever is in the best interest of yield & profit margin...i thought that was what it was all about

[The2ndWheel]

88. It's how power works

The same process founded this country.

[wiggs]

59. This is about corporatism

This is about being able to drill for oil without approval of coastal commission and local jurisdictions, about getting around labor laws, environmental regulations, and lawsuits.

Remember...52 of the world's largest 100 economies are corporations.

[noshenanigans]

60. God..

It wouldn't suprise me, it really wouldn't. Sadly I've become so cynical in the last 5 years nothing does.

I hold out hope thats its just Human Events claptrap. My uncle likes to leave that paper out on the kitchen table when I come to visit because he likes to bait me into arguments. Ugh.

[Rex]

76. Right Wing drivel.

I seriously expect more from Pukers than this stupid scare tactic. Everyone knows America is a sovereign nation and NO law outside our nation's judicial system has ultimate authority over what the government does. How many times has the BFEE violated international law now? How many times has the BFEE violated American law? How many trade laws, environmental laws, tax laws, etc will the BFEE get to break before we break and crumble?

This is a weak scare tactic grasping at reactionary straws. Like gay marriage, like illegal immigration, like ambiguous terrorism, like so many layers of distractions and underhanded actions by the BFEE globally. The cookie jar broke long ago!

[LittleClarkie]

77. Must be left wing drivel as well

as some here are buying into it too.

Quite disgusted I am.

[rman]

78. NAFTA's chapter 11 - Metalclad corp. vs Mexico govt.

"...gives corporations rights to sue governments in special tribunals, for unlimited compensation for profits lost due to normal governments activities."

"...there have been cases, like "Metalclad".
An American company called "Metalclad" went down to Mexico to build a toxic waste dump on an aquafer; the local supply of water. The government said "no, this goes against our environmental laws".
The people are getting poisoned from the water - what corporation has a right to poison our water? The government passed a law that said "no, you can't operate this thing".
They said "that's to bad, we have rights as a corporation that outweigh your human rights". They sued them for 17.5 million dollars saying it was a barrier to fee trade.
This US corporation takes the Mexican government to a NAFTA court, sues under this chapter eleven, and the ruling is - the Mexican government has to pay millions of dollars in "penalties", for "lost profits" of this corporation."

from the documentary "Trading Freedom" (Indymedia)
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/01/284511.html

also documented at

Berkeley University
http://are.berkeley.edu/courses/EEP131/classpresentations/Metalclad.pdf (PDF)
(turns out the amount in penalties to be payed by the Mexican government was reduced, but "...the judge agreed with the NAFTA panel on the merits that the actions of the Governor constituted expropriation".

New York Law Journal
http://www.clm.com/pubs/pub-990359_1.html

Stop FTAA
http://www.stopftaa.org/article.php?id=37

"NAFTA Chapter 11 Investor-to-State Cases: Bankrupting Democracy"
http://are.berkeley.edu/courses/EEP131/Nafta_Chapter11.pdf (PDF)

[rman]

79. The short version: Corporations already are more powerful then Nations

They have transnational trade laws (which they created) on their side.

[rucky]

95. wow.

just, wow.

Makes you wonder if NAFTA was written specifically for this purpose. It's an end-run around ALL regulations.

[hiley]

84. it is very fucking scary

and people need to open their minds to the reality.

[thinkingwoman]

85. oh for crying out loud. Why do people keep falling for this crap?

There is no constitutional way to "trump the Supreme Court" and that DOES matter. There would be civil war in the U.S. if such a move was made. Seriously.

There is nothing to fear but fear itself. Stop falling for (and frothing about) it.

[rman]

87. There is a way in case of Mexico,

See post #78.

The notion of trade agreements superseding national law isn't nearly as much crap as you make it out to be.
Just think how much the big corporations would benefit, then recall who has congress in its pocket and look at the policies that are created.

[thinkingwoman]

92. I didn't say the corporations weren't TRYING it

but trying and accomplishing are two different things. The American people are fed up and the tables are already beginning to turn.

Nevertheless, being afraid is just silly. it doesn't solve anything and, in fact, plays right into the hands of those eager to strip us of our rights.

[rman]

93. In case of Mexico the corporation did succeed

"This US corporation takes the Mexican government to a NAFTA court, sues under this chapter eleven, and the ruling is - the Mexican government has to pay millions of dollars in "penalties", for "lost profits" of this corporation."

That's more than trying.

[thinkingwoman]

96. The U.S. is not Mexico

no matter how many people want to pretend that it is.

[rman]

97. Are you ok with the fact that different rules apply to Mexico

than to the US; that trade regulations created for the most part by US corporations do supersede Mexican national law but not US national law?

[thinkingwoman]

98. I'm OK with focusing my energy

on fixing what is wrong with MY country. Yes. And I make no apologies for that.

I'm also OK with pointing out fear mongering when I see it, no matter which side of the U.S. political divide is doing it.

[Canuckistanian]

91. What complete and utter bullshit

The United States has been in violation of NAFTA rules and has had judgements against it already in our softwood lumber dispute.

And what happened? Nothing. The US just ignored the multiple rulings against it and imposed punishing tariffs and duties anyways. Who could stop them?

They won't adhere to any international law themselves, so how in hell can they say that THEY'RE the one ones getting bullied?

The US is a law unto itself.