I'm calling bullshit on the Canadian "terror plot".

[Buddyblazon]

It was the first thing I screamed when I heard about it on ABCBSMSNBCNN.

"BULLSHIT!!!".

Sorry for doubting.

But let's see. Canada. New conservative leader. Brand new in office. "Terra-ists" planned to "Take over Parliament"?

Been there...done that...and I call BULLLLLLLSSSHHHHHIIIITTT!

[stevietheman]

1. Something definitely smells here...

I smell a coordination with the Criminal Bush Regime.

[Buddyblazon]

3. Isn't it just a coinky dink?

Nothing for several years. New conservative leader. WHAMMO!

Do they really think we're this stupid?

[CanuckAmok]

2. The apparent target was the CBC Fortress Headquarters in Toronto.

We should get HEyHEY in on this one; he is very familiar with the CBC's day-to-day junk.

[Buddyblazon]

7. They were just saying on CNN that they

were targeting the Parliament. They wanted to behead all the hostages including the Prime Minister.

But they then said they were trying to acquire a boatload of fertilizer.

Now they were targeting the CBC?

Wow...talk about being go getters!


I'll bet you they really wanted to hold your country hostage...until we married Siegfried and Roy.

Those Islamic bastards hate our freedoms.

[BrklynLiberal]

4. Smells like "the boy who cried wolf" kind of thing.

At this point I would not believe anything they tell me.

[applegrove]

51. Sorry - but our MSM is not as pliable as yours. Though there are a

few neocon networks.. most are not. Different country.

[BrklynLiberal]

68. Guess you may be right. I have been made too cyncial by the American

press.

[Wonk]

5. The part that bugs me about it is

how the American connection has been played down so much in American media.

Where'd they get their guns, that they were reportedly planning on shooting up some crowd somewhere with? Smuggled across the American border.

Where'd they get their "loose connection with Al Qaeda"? It was 2 guys who travelled north from America to hang out with em for awhile.

I *don't* think the terror plot was BS (manufactured story based on nothing, as you imply), but I do think that there is much more about it that we have yet to learn.

Oh, and the part about some of them planning to "cut off PM Harper's head and stick it on a pike" indicates to me that they were quite delusional, not reality based in the least. Bunch of wannabes, probably. Still, it's a good thing they're off the streets, based on what I've read and heard. Now, let's see the evidence. Apparently the RCMP got a lot of video and audio of their "extreme camping" (I didn't make that up, that's what the group called their 'training camp' when asked by some of the locals what they were doing there).

[Canadian_NewDemocrat]

6. I believe it...

I have little reason to see why it wouldn't be true. I think these guys are nuts, definately fucked up, but I doubt they would've been able to pull it off anyway...

What does everybody else think?

[Wonk]

8. Welcome to DU, Canadian_NewDemocrat

:hi:

[newsguyatl]

58. lol

[Buddyblazon]

9. I think if it actually went down the way the media...

is painting it...it would've made one of the worst B-movie plots ever written.

Right up there with Battlefield Earth.

[Catrina]

14. I don't believe it. After the 'terror raids' we've had here, and the

highly publicized trials with Ashcroft boasting about 'catching terrorists' and then finding out that it was all a farce (that part got hardly any media attention of course) and the prosecutor in trouble for knowing the 'defendants' were totally innocent but going along with the sham, nothing, no lie, is too big for the neocons. Read their writings, they believe in lying to the people.

This was sting, so they had nothing that wasn't provided by the agents, from what I've read.

The chopping off of heads is a must, part of the fear factor, and with Haditha getting so much play here, we've heard lots about heads being found. Always happens when the neocons get in trouble, they produce something worse, so the people become more horrified at that, than at Abu Ghraib, eg, or Haditha.

The neocon philosophy is to keep the people scared, to invent an enemy if one doesn't exist. I believe nothing that comes from anyone connected to the neocon lunatics here. Prosecuting innocent people doesn't bother them in the least.

If it turns out to be real, I'll be surprised. But scaring Canadians to death is a wet dream of the Neocons. They hate Canadians for being so 'liberal' and a real threat to their plans for the US. Canada is forever being attacked by the RW here.

I can imagine Rove et al giggling about scaring those Canadians into being sorry for being so arrogant and so anti-war!

[Telly Savalas]

70. Karl Rove is the puppetmaster for the Canadian Right?

Jesus Fucking Christ. It's that kind of bullshit American arrogance which makes me shy about waving a U.S. flag from my car in Toronto during the World Cup.

America is not the fucking world. Despite all the attempts to foist the American political narrative upon Canada where it doesn't fit, nobody in any of these threads has provided a shred of evidence that this was a giant right-wing conspiracy and not a bunch of stupid kids.

[mahi_mahi]

72. It is not bullshit --

and operatives working on this case were coming down to the US as well. If anything, this shows the US how it should be done. Half a dozen different agencies co-operatively working in conjunction on a whopper of a case for over 18 months w/o a leak. Talk about doing your job, and doing it well.

[iverglas]

76. thank you

That's what it does look like at the moment. Nice to see it's possible to look across the border and see what's there instead of one's own reflection. I think some of us were beginning to wonder whether it just couldn't be done. ;)

[orleans]

15. i think it ties in perfectly to bushie's poll ratings and

how this country is gonna have to be under lockdown come the november elections in order to maintain the republican stranglehold

(who knows? was karl rove behind it?)

just kidding--kinda--nothing is too much of a stretch these days for our bastards

[Kostafarian]

16. I agree

I think the cops and csis were on to these guys before they even knew they were going to stop talking and start doing.

The hype on the other hand is manufactured imo, as as this business about beheading our poor victimized PM.

[Drops_not_Dope]

17. 3 tons of fertilizer?

Sounds kind of serious,

CBC News Indepth: Toronto Bomb Plot: http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/toronto-bomb-plot/suspects.html

[Nabia2004]

40. I suspect it is part of the Pentagon's Plan to Provoke Terrorist Attacks

November 1, 2002

Into the Dark
The Pentagon Plan to Provoke Terrorist Attacks

by CHRIS FLOYD

This column stands foursquare with the Honorable Donald H. Rumsfeld, U.S. Secretary of Defense, when he warns that there will be more terrorist attacks against the American people and civilization at large. We know, as does the Honorable Donald H. Rumsfeld, U.S. Secretary of Defense, that this statement is an incontrovertible fact, a matter of scientific certainty. And how can we and the Honorable Donald H. Rumsfeld, U.S. Secretary of Defense, be so sure that there will be more terrorist attacks against the American people and civilization at large?

Because these attacks will be instigated at the order of the Honorable Donald H. Rumsfeld, U.S. Secretary of Defense.

This astonishing admission was buried deep in a story which was itself submerged by mounds of gray newsprint and glossy underwear ads in last Sunday's Los Angeles Times. There--in an article by military analyst William Arkin, detailing the vast expansion of the secret armies being massed by the former Nixon bureaucrat now lording it over the Pentagon--came the revelation of Rumsfeld's plan to create "a super-Intelligence Support Activity" that will "bring together CIA and military covert action, information warfare, intelligence, and cover and deception."

According to a classified document prepared for Rumsfeld by his Defense Science Board, the new organization--the "Proactive, Preemptive Operations Group (P2OG)"--will carry out secret missions designed to "stimulate reactions" among terrorist groups, provoking them into committing violent acts which would then expose them to "counterattack" by U.S. forces.

-snip-

http://www.counterpunch.org/floyd1101.html

http://www.counterpunch.org/nimmo02012003.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P2OG

[Buddyblazon]

10. It just sounds like a ridiculous plan.

Hell...I'm not exactly sure what their plan was...as I can't seem to get any of the facts nailed down from any of the Media Whores.

The one plan I heard where the were planning on taking over Parliament...it sounds like Keystone Al-Quada.

What were the planning on with all that fertilizer? Explosions along with the take over?

I mean...I could see a simple explosion. Big time destruction. That would be their MO. But the Parliament stuff? Dude...things have to go awfully "right" to pull that one off.

[Canadian_NewDemocrat]

12. thnx for the welcome

... :)

Ok, as for the "plan" this is what I have heard. There were plans to blow up, or at least damage the CSIS building on Front Street, possibly blow up military targets, and today we just heard the whole thing on storming the Parliament buildings, taking politicians hostages, probably mostly conservatives since they are the ruling party, and demanding a withdrawl from Afghanistan and freeing of muslim prisoners from jails...there have also been mentions on the news of the CN Tower being on the hit list, the Toronto stock exchange building and the Peace Tower at Ottawa...to do all this would recquire a lot and perfect timing, which probably wouldn't work out, they'd probably just get a couple things done...

I think the counter-terrorism force did a good job, but I think the media, for the most part, has been disgusting and free-mongering, not Canadian at all lately...

I doubt they would've been able to do any of this successfully.

[lumpy]

20. They would need an army to accomplish

their plans. They must be a bunch of amateurs or the whole thing is a fraud.

[iverglas]

67. been to Ottawa lately?

I have. And I was last in Washington two years ago.

Ottawa is not Washington.

Here's a webcam:
http://www.parliamenthill.gc.ca/text/hillcam_e.html

A little murky right now, but it will be clearer in the morning.

Unfortunately, since 2001, one can no longer drive up the circular drive to the steps of Centre Block, where the House of Commons and Senate chambers are.

Anybody and his/her dog really can just walk up that broad sidewalk to the steps of Centre Block and right on in. (Well, okay, not dog. But there's a feral cat shelter in the area to the left of Centre Block in the webcam shot -- click on "explore the hill", then "centre block", then "exterior", then on the red dot farthest on the right, and there's a picture of it.)

There are tours. Politicians are regularly accosted in the foyer by packs of journalists:
http://www.collineduparlement.gc.ca/text/explorecommonsfoyer_e.html
These days there are also metal detectors, I assume, so storming the place with machetes might not actually get you the PM's head. That one really was a pretty dumb plan.

I'm not getting why it would take an army to drive a truck up to a building and blow it up, though.

Something a whole lot of USAmericans probably have no idea about is that political and quasi-political violence has happened in Canada in the past. The FLQ bombings, kidnappings, etc., were a generation in the past, but they happened. The guy who walked into the Quebec legislature in 1984 and started shooting did kill people.

It doesn't actually take an army to do a lot of harm. That's kind of the whole point of terrorism.

I do think calling these goofs "terrorists" gives them a little too much credit, but I see no reason to doubt that, had they not been detected and stopped, they could and would have caused quite a bit of harm.

[AllNamesHaveBeenUsed]

26. I highly doubt...

on storming the Parliament buildings, taking politicians hostages, probably mostly conservatives since they are the ruling party,

If storming a building, I doubt they would take the time to determine if potential hostages are either liberal or conservative. Other than the PM, everybody else would be "body count."

[Laura PourMeADrink]

30. Your war president cartoon made me think of this foreign press cartoon

[CJCRANE]

32. It's like

B*sh's LA "Liberty Tower" speech where he said shoebombers were going to hijack a plane and then crash it into a building. Or the latest raid in London were they said the suspect was going to trigger a "poison vest".

My guess is that they get these tip-offs under torture, and the torture victim obviously just babbles out any old extreme crap that they think the interrogators want to hear.

on edit: either that or some "Curveball"-type character who makes a living from providing dud (but convenient) intelligence.

[ProfessorGAC]

39. And Given That. . .

. . .it sure makes me wonder what everyone is so afraid of! If the terrorists are this stupid, i would suggest we have nothing to fear.
The Professor

[Emit]

11. Here's what gets me

I read that the recent "terror" operation in Canada was a sting, with the explosive material having been supplied by the police themselves:

TORONTO: The Royal Canadian Mounted Police itself delivered three ton of potential bomb-making material to a group that authorities said wanted to mount a string of attacks inspired by Al-Qaida, according to a news report on Sunday.

The Toronto Star said investigators delivered the ammonium nitrate to a group of Muslim Canadians, then moved in on what officials call a suspected homegrown terror ring.

The investigators learned of the group's alleged plan to bomb targets around Ontario, then controlled the sale and transport of the fertiliser.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1621113.cms


Yet, the talking head on Wolf Blitzer's Situation Room failed to mention that:

MESERVE (voice over): Seventeen men and boys, all Canadian residents, arrested in raids over the weekend. Police also seized what appeared to be a detonator and ammonium nitrate, the fertilizer that, fashioned into a bomb, devastated the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. Canadian authorities say the arrests capped a two-year investigation and more arrests are expected. MIKE MCDONELL, ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE: We're following every investigative lead that we have right now. And anybody that was involved in aiding, facilitating or participating in this terrorist threat will be arrested.

And on the same show, Wolf interviewed Frances Townsend, the assistant to the president for homeland security and counterterrorism. She, too, fails to mention that this was a sting, or that police supplied the ammonium nitrate; and she further perpetuates that this was an "imminent threat."

BLITZER: The ammonium nitrate, the fertilizer that they had, supposedly could have blown up three kinds of buildings as was blown up in Oklahoma City. How close based on the information you've gotten from the Canadians, how close were they actually to going forward with such a detonation?

TOWNSEND: Well, we know, one, it was three tons of ammonium nitrate, which is the reason that the Canadians were so concerned. The second thing we know, Wolf, is that the Canadian authorities understood that they had guns, detonation equipment, and were beginning to assemble the detonation device.

This is a real concern. And obviously the threat was imminent and caused the Canadian authorities to take it down.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/05/sitroom.02.html

How much of an imminent threat was this sting operation, really?

[jbnow]

22. Interesting!

The sting part of this does show the "imminent threat" was not so imminent. It shows the wanna-be terrorists had serious intent, but says more that the police were doing a good job.

The sting is a very important part...so our media is hyping it all worse than they need to. Worse than the Canadian media? Are they talking about the sting?

[muriel_volestrangler]

29. Not only that, the RCMP gave them a non-explosive dummy

But the Star has learned that what the group actually acquired was not ammonium nitrate, since investigators monitoring the men learned of the alleged purchase of the fertilizer and intervened before the delivery, switching the potentially deadly material with a harmless substance. After the deal with the decoy was completed, 400 officers from across the province moved in for the arrests.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1149460818261&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home

Which is good police work, but does seem to show there's been a lot of hype about the danger too.

[CJCRANE]

43. You know

this makes me wonder if this is what happened in the 21/7 London bombings (the dud ones)...?

Not much has come out about this case recently and the 7/7 report just blamed the emergency services and didn't say anything about intelligence failures or involvement.

[muriel_volestrangler]

44. Those charged for 21st July are said to have had "improvised explosives"

The last story about them was about a month ago - a trial date was set for October. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4953678.stm

When people are charged in England, there are strict limits on what the media is allowed to say about the case, in case it prejudices a jury member. So the British media won't say much until October, and since no-one died in these cases (and as far as I remember, no-one was significantly injured), I doubt non-UK media will say much either.

[CJCRANE]

33. It's a classic tactic -

UK and US intelligence services have been doing this kind of thing for years.

[Nabia2004]

41. Exactly - nt

[jbnow]

13. What made me nervous

was hearing a couple of times that "the internet is the new Afghanistan", how they cal learn how to make weapons, plan attacks and talk to each other. Will Canada need warrantless spying on everyone now too?

Will there be more limits or monitoring of the internet?

Although conversely if they did it all legally, why can't we?

[laundry_queen]

19. I've noticed the internet connection as well

Being trumpeted on teevee.
Will it be just a matter of time before the internets are shut down as a 'security risk'?? :scared:

[shadowknows69]

31. If martial law is ever declared here bank on it.

They'll claim they need to control all communications. Then people start disappearing.

[Ecumenist]

18. Me too Buddy. I felt that something was wrong with

this from jumpstreet. Something stinks and is obviously rotten in Denmark and the rest of the world. This just seems a bit too convenient, considering the latest elections in Canada.

[Jazz2006]

21. Cool.

I guess we can also pretend that Ressam was never stopped at the border enroute to LAX, and pretend that the Air India bombings that killed hundreds never happened, since there are no terrorists or wannabe terrorist types in Canada.

Wonderful. Great. Terrific. That gives me more time to concentrate on the Stanley Cup finals at the moment, thankyouverymuch.

[Karmakaze]

23. I have very little doubt that this "plot" is totally fake.

Take for example the two British men recently arrested (and one being shot for no apparent reason) in the UK. The police claimed they had a tipoff that these two men had made a "chemical vest" and were planning to attack the World Cup.

Turns out even MI5 has doubts about the story, and NOTHING even remotely terrorist related was found. Yet those men are still in custody. Why? Because someone said something that has basically turned out untrue? Or because keeping the public in fear of terrorist attacks is beneficial to the Blair and Bush regimes?

I don't know the full details of this Canadian case, but I would not be surprised in the slightest if all the stories about what they intended to do, like the "chemical vest attack on the World Cup", turns out to be false.

[Rosemary2205]

24. Oh I believe it!!

These idiots are right up there with those "we're gonnna blowtorch the Brooklyn Bridge" idiots. Outa just throw um all in the same cell.

[Disturbed]

25. These nitwits were an Imminent Threat just like

Iraq was.

[CanSocDem]

35. You got it!! /eom

[sweetpotato]

27. Buddyblazon

Today you are my favorite DU poster.

I have always loved your photo of *, it really captures his manly essence well.

[Philosoraptor]

28. Something's rotten in Canada

I instantly went into bullshit overdrive.

[malaise]

34. Ditto n/t

[earthmama]

36. Something does smell with this

I called bullshit myself. IMO, a way to scare Canadian and tighten up there immigration and borders. I don't think everything was 100% made up but there is definitely something fishy going on.

And you all know that * is gonna use this. ' We must fight the war on terror and keep troops in Iraq.

Bullshit Bullshit.

Canada needs a new PM.

[SidDithers]

37. I haven't followed it too closely...

I was out of town over the weekend. But if the Canadian public believed that Stephen Harper is starting to behave like George Bush, with conveniently-timed elevated threat warnings, or "manufactured" terror arrests, his government would become the lamest of lame ducks in the House, and wouldn't be able to get a birthday announcement passed through parliament.

Watch for an new Canadian election next spring, after the Liberals elect a new party leader in December. If Harper wants to continue to govern, he's got to appear to be less like Bush, not more like Bush.

Sid

[Buddyblazon]

46. Oh...

what do you think will keep your countries conservative party in power?

FEAR my friend. FEAR.

Nobody uses it like the Conservatives. Now they're passing down the message to all their counterparts in other countries.

Case in point. When Clinton thwarted the Millenium bomb threat...we heard NOTHING about it...not until Liberals had to defend themselves after 9/11 when these fuckwits were screaming, "YOU NEVER DEALT WITH TERRA-IST THREATS! YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO PROTECT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE! ALL OF THIS IS YOUR FAULT!".

Now when these UnAmerican criminals "buttercup" (fart into your fist...open in your pals face) any Muslim...all of a sudden it's, "WE JUST SAVED UMERICA FROM A MASSIVE TERRA-IST PLOT! THEY WERE GOING TO SET OFF THE VERY FIRST 'GAY BOMB' WITH ENOUGH COVERAGE TO COVER OUR ENTIRE COUNTRY! THEY WERE GOING TO POISON THE WATER SUPPLY THAT WOULD MAKE US GIVE UP ALL OUR GUNS!".

It's just more outlandish shit after outlandish shit.

I mean come on. Why would any intelligent leader give terrorists any attention whatsoever? This is why the terrorists do brutal things...to draw attention to their causes.

The only reason they do it...is because these disgusting leaders need a tool. And the greatest tyrants have shown that FEAR is one of the...if not THE most...effective tools. The people are willing to give up all their rights...all their civil liberties...as my brainwashed Father puts it..."because these are different and dangerous times".

Problem is...they'll figure it out once all their rights are gone. Then they'll look at us...and say..."How could you allow this to happen?".


Well my Canuck friends...welcome to Ummmerica.

[SidDithers]

47. OK, well, thanks for that...

I'm not really sure that there was a point anywhere in that rambling semblance of a post, but you apparently know Canadians better than Canadians know Canadians, so I'm glad I've got your imput.

I've got you on my buddy list now, so that I can check in with you the next time Harper and the CPC have a scrum. You can let me know what I should do.

Cheers.

Sid

[Art_from_Ark]

71. I think you have too much confidence in the Canadian public

The last Conservative PM of Canada before Harper, Brian Mulroney*, was wrapped around Ronald Reagan's, and then bu$h 1's little finger. When Reagan said "Jump!", Mulroney said "How high?"


*Not including Kim Campbell, who essentially served a caretaker after Mulroney's government finally fell apart

[iverglas]

75. gosh, thanks for your opinion

-- both of all the Canadians saying the same thing here at DU in recent days, and of Canadians in general.

I guess we're forgetting to be grateful for the fact that we're being noticed at all ...

[SidDithers]

77. You do remember what happened to the Conservatives...

after Brian Mulroney, don't you?

Sid

[Junkdrawer]

38. "Oh", says Canada. "We'll just put in a Conservative until the Liberals"..

"clean up their act. Then we'll drop him like a hot potato."

He he, sure you will....

[karmababy]

42. Total Bullshit!

and thank you for saying it.

[catmandu57]

45. Smells like a fish lying on the beach

for days, it just stinks. At best these were a bunch of incompetent wannabes, it's good to get them off the street, but it's not something to get worked up over.
The trouble is there are enough people out there that will swallow this shit hook line and sinker and the bastards in control know this.

[Canadian_NewDemocrat]

48. hmmm..yes, good point

Harper will start using this to say "See, look, that's why Canada is in Afghanistan!" ignoring the fact that all these nitwit terrorist wannabes were Canadian born citizens!! ah...I'm not worried...shit like this has been going on for decades, people act as if terror threats is something new. Truth be told, I'm more likely to get shot (yes, even in Canada) or run over crossing the street than dying in a terrorist attack.

[iverglas]

55. interestingly, though

Harper will start using this to say "See, look, that's why Canada is in Afghanistan!" ignoring the fact that all these nitwit terrorist wannabes were Canadian born citizens!!

The police/intelligence services, and the media, have stressed from the very first press conference that the accused were, if not born-in-Canada citizens (not all were), long-term residents of Canada. Hell, one had been in the reserve force.

From that Saturday morning press conference, I believe:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/toronto-bomb-plot/index.html

All of the suspects were either born in Canada or were long-time residents. Luc Portelance, the assistant director of operations for the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS) called it a case of "home-grown terrorism."

"For various reasons, they appear to have become adherents of a violent ideology inspired by al-Qaeda," Portelance told reporters.

... On May 29, days before the arrests, the deputy director of CSIS, Jack Hooper appeared before the Senate defence committee, where he addressed the possibility of "home-grown terrorists" in Canada.

"We know who and where some of them are," he told the committee.

It's going to be hard to ignore the fact that they were made, if not born, in Canada, when it's one of the big talking points of the story.

One NDPer to another ... :hi:

(NDP being as left as circumstances allow, of course.)

[deaniac21]

49. There aren't really any terrorists. There is no danger.

[applegrove]

50. You are projecting your mistrust of your leaders onto us. This has

been going on for years. Our newspapers (well most of them) still tell the truth.

This isn't funny. Nobody laughed when you got attacked on 9/11. We got lucky.


Our officials were paying attention to jihadism.. and they got the freaks before they killed anyone.

[glarius]

52. Finally...a sane voice....the relevant police and intelligence agencies

were on the job, co-operating with each other instead of the infighting that went on between the CIA and FBI etc. in the States. THAT IS WHY THIS TERRORIST ATTACK WAS THWARTED!....I pray that the American agencies have learned their lesson and are now co-operating also!

[Eric J in MN]

60. In your country, undercover cops spying on a group

don't try to lead them to something they can charge them with?

[iverglas]

63. and your point is?

In your country, undercover cops spying on a group
don't try to lead them to something they can charge them with?

Dogs sometimes bark when they see a letter carrier. Oddly, I don't assume, every time a dog barks, that I am about to get mail.

Do you have some basis for insinuating (as you plainly are) that THESE cops tried to lead THESE people to do something they could charge them with? Or even that it is reasonable to suspect that this was the case?

Do you know ANYTHING AT ALL about this particular series of events?

[iverglas]

53. some excellent questions

The ones in your post 10, that is.

But I have to ask.

Did it not occur to you to look for some answers BEFORE "calling bullshit"???

I will not direct the rest of this post to you, but to the world in general ...


I sure know what I'd call bullshit. And it's a majority of what I have seen from USAmericans in these forums in the last few days.

DESPITE the fact that an overwhelming majority of the CANADIANS -- you know, us folks who live here where this story happened -- have tried over and over and over not just to get the people with these bizarre theories to learn some facts -- and STOP TREATING US AS IF WE WERE MORONS and only the clever folks in the US know what's really going on in OUR OWN COUNTRY.

Oh, and GET THEIR HEADS OUT OF THEIR ASSES and stop looking at the rest of the world as if it were their own private mirror. It is not.

Here's your timeline:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/toronto-bomb-plot/timeline-investigation.html

And for anybody who can't tell the difference between what is being called a "sting" here and entrapment, or some huger international conspiracy of the usual suspects:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/toronto-bomb-plot/timeline-investigation.html

Late May-early June 2006

Members of the group allegedly start making inquiries to buy three tonnes of ammonium nitrate, a widely available fertilizer that can be made into an explosive by adding fuel oil. The Toronto Star would later report that police intercepted the shipment of ammonium nitrate, replacing it with a harmless powder.

Apparently, the police DID NOT sell them fertilizer or take any other active part in the transaction they were attempting to complete.

If the report is accurate, what they did is what narcotics police commonly do: intercept a shipment of drugs, replace the drugs with talcum powder or whatnot, and allow it to proceed to its addressee, and THEN bust 'em. And that would be "entrapment", how?

Yes, it does sound like a ridiculous plan -- the storming parliament and beheading Harper bit. I'd say that calling it a plan would be glorifying it unduly.

But 3 tonnes of fertilizer really can cause a lot of harm, even in the hands of very stupid people. And downtown big-city Canadian that I am, I'm just not thrilled about the prospect of them or someone else pulling it off, possibly in my vicinity. Or anyone else's.

And I've had my fill of know-nothings from south of my border telling me that my concerns are nothing but lies told to me by much cleverer and more powerful USAmericans, that I've swallowed because I'm so damned dumb.

[applegrove]

54. You need a bigger paddle. Pot not stirring fast enough.

[tlsmith1963]

56. Why Would They Go After Canada?

Canada generally stays out of things. There is no reason for the terrorists to have a problem with Canadians. But I think the neocons are in with the terrorists anyway, so it makes more sense when you think of it that way.

Tammy

[glarius]

57. Canada has troops in Afghanistan.....that's why.

We have troops fighting in Afghanistan and the Al Qaeda guys don't like that I guess....

[iverglas]

61. because this is *where they live*!!

They're long-term Canadian residents, if not citizens (which many are).

It certainly is worth noting, though, that no "real" terrorists seem to have taken much interest in Canada.

Some disaffected misfits become eccentric professors. Some become gang members. Some take their daddy's guns to school and shoot people. Some decide to blow things up in the name of religion.

People with chips on their shoulder or twisted minds, or people who are out to glorify themselves, don't always need a particular axe of their own to grind to justify their actions to themselves or someone else; there's always one handy they can borrow.

I actually think that these people will prove to be an extremely interesting case study.


But I think the neocons are in with the terrorists anyway, so it makes more sense when you think of it that way.

Yeah. It certainly does seem to make sense to a lot of people hereabouts. Even though it doesn't actually make a stitch of it.

Jeez, wouldn't you just think the neo-cons could have come up with a few brighter specimens than these seem to be? Like, maybe, some REAL terrorists? They do exist, you know.

I wouldn't be surprised to see our own right wing try to exploit this situation for some political gain. But do you know? -- Canadians really ARE NOT STUPID.

The bit of the Conservative Party's policy that I'm wondering how it will affect is their plan to trash the firearms registry. A huge gang bust last month, now this (there was minor gun-running involved, and obviously some people who would have liked to have more guns), plus a few women shot dead by their husbands recently ... this could be one of the nails in the coffin for that little dream. One can hope.

[Eric J in MN]

59. They got the bombs from undercover cops.

Would they have tried to get bombs without cops leading them in that direction?

[iverglas]

64. ya got a lot of questions

If only you'd come out and say what you mean and mean what you say ... and have something to back it up with.

"They got the bombs from undercover cops."

You're the expert, I guess.

[Eric J in MN]

69. When the FBI infiltrated the Black Panthers in the 1960 and 70s,

it was the undercover FBI who were advocating breaking the law to get an arrest.

It's true that I don't know that the Canadian law enforcement did that in this case, but hopefully will learn more about that during the trial.

[iverglas]

73. fascinating

Since the subject at hand is not the FBI, it is the RCMP and CSIS, and it is not the USofA, it is Canada, and it is not the Black Panthers, it is someone quite different, and it is not the 60s and 70s, it is this century ... well, gee, I guess what you know about one set of things would be relevant to a completely different set of things ... if it were.

And it still wouldn't be relevant, actually.

And what went on in the RCMP/CSIS investigation of the group in question in Canada in this century would still be a matter of fact, which is exactly what it is. And those facts are not determined or affected by what the FBI did in the US 30 years ago. So there's really very little point in bringing that up at all. Or in any other speculating or guessing or claiming or opining about what happened in Canada in this case that has nothing to do with the facts of what happened.

There are many facets to imperialism. There are many ways of treating the rest of the world as if it were an extension of one's self -- as if it does not have its own history, politics and culture, and its people do not have their own brains.

And I'm feeling pretty damned colonized by all of the voices telling me that my country and its institutions and culture and politics and history are just branch plants of the US's and I'm too dumb to figure it out.

[SmokingJacket]

62. It was predicted.

I remember reading just a week or two before that the CIA or NSA or DHS had a feeling that Canada would be "next" in terms of terrorism. Does anyone else remember this? I have no idea where I read it, unfortunately.

OK, time for a little chat with Google.

Not that the prediction means anything, necessarily, but it sure remind me of the memo Bush didn't pay attention to in August 01.

ON EDIT:

I love the internet! Apparently it was May 29 -- just a few days before. Here: "THE CANADIAN SECURITY INTELLIGENCE SERVICE has just issued this warning: There is an increasing threat from what Canada's CIA calls "home-grown terrorists" living in communities across Canada. And presumably awaiting orders.

The warning came from Jack Hooper, CSIS deputy director of operations, in May 29 testimony before a Canadian Senate defense committee. He told the committee that, since 2001, some 20,000 immigrants from the Afghanistan/Pakistan region have entered Canada." Etc.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/012/292lutpg.asp

[iverglas]

65. prediction -- or knowledge?

There were and are facts.

Update:
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/06/07/documents07062006.html

Investigation timeline:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/toronto-bomb-plot/timeline-investigation.html

Fall 2004
CSIS agents notice an internet chat room where young men allegedly exchange anti-Western views and links to radical Islamist websites, police say.

... January 2006
Toronto Mayor David Miller is briefed on the ongoing investigation.

February 2006
Investigators call a meeting with the chiefs of Ontario's police forces to share details of the alleged plot.

Now, do you suppose that US police/intelligence services were NOT briefed??

Maybe they just read the proceedings of a Canadian Senate committee:

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Editorial/508385.html

If the charges stick, the results will underline what CSIS and RCMP spokesmen warned the Senate’s national security committee about just last week. They testified that the danger from "homegrown terrorists" – who fit in perfectly with our society and become radicalized and trained via terrorist sites on the Internet – was on the rise in Canada.

Not that the prediction means anything, necessarily, but it sure remind me of the memo Bush didn't pay attention to in August 01.

Canadian police/intelligence services paid attention. Of course, according to many at this place, what they were paying attention to didn't exist ...

[SmokingJacket]

66. Hey, I have no idea.

I really, really don't. These fellows seem really young to me, but again, I really don't know - I haven't followed the story very closely and even if I did, until there's a trial, none of us knows.

Though if it's all exactly as they claim it is, the Canadians certainly are more on the ball than OUR guys, so props to them.

[Philosoraptor]

74. Zarqawi is dead! We don't have to worry about Canadian Terrorists!