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cantstandbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:00 AM
Original message
CHAVEZ GETS IT!!!
DUers, you owe it to yourselves to listen to Chavez (at OPEC) on C-SPAN (on now). I believe it will be shown again. Listen and educate yourselves about the history, the problems, the solutions of the oil issue facing the world. I am convinced the Chavez is one of the brightest, most sincere--if not THE brightes and MOST sincere--national leader of our time. He gets it about the environment, the need for mass transit systems to stem the need for oil, clean up our environment, and create jobs that raise the standard of living for workers... He gets it more than our Congress, our government, and certainly more than the dittoheads that vote in those that are killing off our nation.

DO NOT MISS THIS SPEECH. Get the transcript if possible.

I am a beliver in building jobs in America through developing our railroads and joining them with new and improved mass transit systems in our major cities. I have been sending plans and schemes to Congress for years about how this could be done and have yet to get any response or to see any candidate on either side make a serious effort to address this issue. Chavez gets it. And the world would do well to embrace this man rather than making him a poriah as the Bush administration is trying to do. Mexico would do well to listen to this man and try to build their economy around his many suggestions and the US would do well to help Mexico do this to stem the tide of illegal immigrants. All the US can do is think about sanctioning, attacking, or destablizing any nation and national leader that does not agree with it or who fights for its poor people.
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:33 AM
Response to Original message
1. Chavez is a Bush wannabe!
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. on what planet do you live?
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. "Chavez is a Bush wannabe!" Five whole words, including "a." I'll give
you the benefit of the doubt on "a." And also on the slang "wannabe." You can speak a five word sentence, but that's it. Maybe I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on writing a koan. What are we to make of this deep, cryptic remark? Let me parse it word by word...

Chavez = democratically elected president of Venezuela, in highly monitored elections which the OAS, EU election monitoring groups and the Carter Center all deemed honest and above board; first brown face to run Venezuela and represent the interests of the vast, poor, brown population who have never before been served by government; using some of the country's oil resources (nationalized before Chavez) to fund schools, medical and community centers, and small business loans and grants; hugely popular; when the US-backed coup tried to oust him, tens of thousands of Venezuelans poured into the streets to demand the return of their elected president and constitutional government.

is = based on your considerable knowledge of Venezuelan and South American affairs, you are able to equate Chavez with...

a = one of many; not "the"; as if there were many who wanted to be...

Bush = reported by the war profiteering corporate news monopolies to be president of the United States, lost the popular vote in 2000, and, while waging illegal war, torturing prisoners, looting the federal government and spying on everybody, got the biggest crooks in Congress, Tom Delay and Bob Ney, to engineer the "Help America Vote Act," by which his buds at Diebold and ES&S gained control of the US election system for 2004, using "TRADE SECRET," PROPRIETARY programming code, with virtually no audit/recount controls, funded by a $4 billion electronic voting boondoggle; and, with the US election system rendered wholly non-transparent and unverifiable, claims to have been re-elected...

wannabe = a popular, elected president, whose programs help the poor, wants to be...Bush?--an illegitimate president who gives tax cut after tax cut to the super-rich, and slaughters tens of thousands of brown people in Iraq, and tortures prisoners, and is hated throughout the world, and has a 28% approval rating at home???

Why would Chavez want to be Bush? And what evidence is there that he does? Can you give us more than five words on this?
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al bupp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Don't hold your breath waiting for a reply to your analysis...
Altough it might be interesting, I mean comical, to see.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. Black is white. War is peace. Jefferson was the antichrist.
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 04:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
31. What makes you say that?
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
33. Why aren't the Chavez-bashers ever specific...
in their general bashing?


What's your beef with him?

If "he's a dicator" - tell me HOW, because there must be something I'm missing.
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cantstandbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:38 AM
Response to Original message
2. Lissten to the speech or read it before you spew the party line.
Chavez could never be as ignorant as Bush.
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Scoody Boo Donating Member (634 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. I did...
had not slept like that in weeks.
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chemp Donating Member (569 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:50 AM
Response to Original message
3. But...But...But... cavez is a dictator...and a Commie...and a terrorist...
our most trusted pres'dent sez so!
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 07:13 AM
Response to Original message
5. He sure does. (nt)
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 07:15 AM
Response to Original message
7. last nights thread
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slor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
12. I have to go to work...
did anyone TIVO it?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
13. I watched it.
I think it is definitely worth people's time to view it with an open mind.
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cantstandbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
14. Watch it or read it and LEARN. Chavez was ELECTED...really elected
Remember, Bush was not!
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
15. Chavez is a very intelligent man and savvy leader who has been...
repeatedly endorsed by his countrymen in TRANSPARENT elections (can we say the same of our own?), and is as popular as he is because he is a bold thinker about the resources, economies and political situation of third word countries, including his own, who have been systematically exploited and brutalized for many decades, by their own fascist elites in collusion with the US government and US-based global corporate predators.

He bases his beliefs on the 19th century revolutionary hero, Simon Bolivar--who led the revolt against Spain and freed the slaves. Bolivar wanted to see the South American states unite, like the U.S., into a powerful financial and political entity that could better see to the interests of all South American peoples. He particularly wanted Bolivia (named after him), Venezuela and Peru to unite. He failed in that regard (he died too young to realize it). South America was carved up into a bunch of weak, separate, and far more exploitable states--very like what was done to the Middle East and Africa in post-colonial mapmaking. Chavez has been working on regional cooperation on energy resources and food production. He has a compadre in the recently elected first indigenous Indian president of Bolivia, Evo Morales. (Chavez is part Indian, part black and part Spanish.) One of the things that propelled Evo Morales into office in Bolivia was the popular revolt against Bechtel Corporation. Bechtel had privatized the water in one Bolivian city, then jacked up the prices to the poor, even attempting to charge poor peasants for collecting rainwater. The Bolivians threw Bechtel out of their country and elected Morales. Control of natural resources and their use for the benefit of ordinary people is a major issue in both countries. Chavez and Morales have been trying to influence Peruvians to elect another indigenous, Ollanta Humala, as president of Peru, so they will have a triumvirate of power for dealings with the powerful global corporations that are exploiting, or want to exploit, the rich resources of this region--and for countering the lethal influence of the Bushite US government, which has been pouring US tax dollars into rightwing parties and fascist cabals in all three countries. The Bushites accuse Chavez of "interfering" with Peruvian elections. Believe that if you will, but the vast indigenous population of the Andes that straddles these artificial, colonial-made borders sees things differently. THEIR interests are best served by the cooperation and compatibility of the people-serving, democratically elected governments of the region.

Chavez has also reached out to other S/A governments. For instance, Venezuela just helped bail Argentina out of crippling IMF/World Bank debt (a severely depressing kind of indebtedness that hurts social programs and the environment most of all--it is a set-up for Corporate rule and exploitation). And Chavez and Venezuela are by no means alone in their leftist/socialist trend and anti-Bush, anti-Corporate policies. South America is in fact undergoing a sweeping, peaceful, democratic, leftist revolution--with socialist Michele Batchelet (who was tortured by the US-backed dictator Pinochet) becoming the first woman president of Chile, recently, and leftist governments covering virtually the whole map of the continent--in Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Chile, Bolivia and Venezuela, a leftist (Humala) in a competitive race in Peru, and a leftist voter uprising even in Columbia (it didn't succeed but it was new, no doubt inspired by what's happening in the rest of So. America). There is also a leftist likely to win the presidency in Mexico this year (Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, mayor of Mexico City). And revolutionary leader Daniel Ortega is running for president in Nicaragua (probably won't win--too much US influence, the result of the Reaganites illegal war on the left in that country, the infamous Iran-Contra scandal).

What is so remarkable about Chavez--and, indeed, about this entire revolution--is the PEACEFUL transformation of the Left into the powerful political force that it has become (because, face it, ONLY Leftists represent the interests of the majority). Until recently, the Left was divided about peace vs. armed conflict. Conditions in So. America have been so oppressive, so brutal, that the best leaders--Che Guevara, for example (a physician turned guerrilla fighter, killed by the CIA)--saw no way out of it except by force. Meanwhile, though, really tremendously important work has been done by local civic groups, the OAS, EU monitoring groups and the Carter Center, on achieving transparent and fair elections in South America. People like Chavez and Humala--both rank and file military--once tempted by armed revolution, are now running for office and winning. And it's interesting that, when Chavez participated in a failed leftist coup, early in his career, and was jailed, THAT is when he became a great hero. That's where his political popularity began. When he came out of prison, he committed to constitutional, democratic change, ran for president and won.

Chavez's story is a paradigm of this whole amazing revolution. The brutalities and oppression of the past, which have sometimes elicited angry, violent reaction in seemingly hopeless conditions, have somehow been transformed into DEMOCRACY and GOOD GOVERNMENT. I would be tempted to call it a miracle--given what Latin America has suffered over the last century--except for what I know about the hard work on fair elections that has occurred. Hard civic work. Faith. Maintaining hopefulness. Long term thinking. We need those things here now, in the U.S.

The war profiteering corporate news monopolies have made much of Chavez's friendship with Castro, and financial agreements with Cuba (oil for doctors). But Venezuela has ALSO developed relations with China, Argentina, Bolivia, Iran, England and other countries (and, indeed, with states of the United States--cheap fuel oil deals for the poor). Free of US/Bush/Corporate domination (i.e., led by a popularly elected government, acting in the interests of its people), Venezuela is making its OWN judgments about other countries. It has a common Latin culture with Cuba. Why SHOULDN'T it be friendly with Castro and engage in mutual aid? The frequent mention of this relationship by our corporate news monopolies seems to be aimed at tagging Chavez as a "communist"--which he is decidedly NOT--in order to push those tired old buttons in the US psyche. Venezuela has a mixed economy and there is no sign that Chavez or his supporters (60% of the population, the great majority), or anyone in his government, want anything else. They are an ELECTED government, operating under a Constitution. They are not appropriating anyone's property or jaguars. They are not violent. They are not even envious (from what I can tell). There is no bitterness about the past. They are on to the future. They are CREATING the future. Talk about envy. Don't WE wish that WE had such a government, looking progressively and optimistically to the future, seeking justice and equity, and developing both visionary and pragmatic solutions for poverty and for environmental protection!

Stupid, and utterly uninformed comments, like the one above--"Chavez is a Bush wannabe," or, like those we find in our corporate news monopoly press (Chavez is "authoritarian," or Chavez is "increasingly dictatorial"--always sneaked in, and attributed without quotes to "opponents"--and NEVER with ANY evidence) often make discussion of these important developments in South America difficult. There are no snap comments that are adequate to the topic. It seems that some of us here at DU can't get past the disinformation and stereotyping fed into our brains by the corporate illusion machine. Here's an easy formula to use: Whenever you read/hear/see anything in the corporate news monopolies about Chavez, substitute the phrase "Iraq WMDs" for "Chavez," and ask yourself how much truth these sources gave you about Iraq WMDs. THAT is the amount of truth you are getting about Chavez and South America.

For excellent comment and analysis of the modern Bolivarian Revolution, try: www.venezuelanalysis.com.
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cantstandbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
16. Staying alive! n/t
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
17. Good ideas can be packaged in a bad dude
Edited on Sat Jun-03-06 09:39 AM by UTUSN
A stopped clock etc., etc. HITLER loved dogs. LIMBOsevic loves Xmas. MUSSOLINI made the trains run on time. And Shrub's insight was how much easier it would be to be a dictator.

Yes, CHAVEZ was elected. And he recently requested to be installed for 25 years. And as much as I heart to bash Shrub and thirst to have public figures do it, and as funny as CHAVEZ's taunts are, the more credible the rant-er the better. And on the spectrum of rants, CHAVEZ is at the raving end.

So good ideas from CHAVEZ? How about if he dictates (haha) them, somebody transcribes them, then somebody sane-appearing reads them or absorbs them and speaks them. Then I'll listen.
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cantstandbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. How long was FDR in office? Oh, I guess we weren't a democracy then.
Dude, democracies don't have to be like the US sham. They can have shams of their own. If the people of Venezuela want Chavez for 25 years that's their business. If they don't, I am sure they will handle it.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. FDR was elected for separate, Constitutional terms
Edited on Sat Jun-03-06 09:46 AM by UTUSN
CHAVEZ is demanding for the current rules to be overturned for his own interest. The key words are FOR HIS OWN INTEREST. And I'm sure this thought would not occur to anybody but me, but if he finds it hard to give up power after four-or-whatever years, I suspect the 25 years will turn into pResident-for-life.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. "requested to be installed for 25 years" - misrepresentation of facts
Chavez has proposed a referendum on extending term limits under the condition that the opposition boycots the elections.

You'd know that if you'd listen the sources other than the corporate media.

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. You're absolutely correct. It was mentioned IN CONTEXT with the
continuing threat of boycotts presented by the opposition which knew, in the last election, it would be wildly defeated, and sought to avoid the embarrassment by "boycotting" that election.

It was simple enough for ANYONE to understand with even basic reading skills. Too bad there are right-wing idiots who want to drag their disinformation here, to try to shout down people who actually READ the news.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. I'm *sure* you don't mean the "right-wing idiots" referencing moi
Edited on Sat Jun-03-06 11:26 AM by UTUSN
I'm one of those pesky Dems who is for NAFTA (& there are many), who is for social justice for everybody here/there/everywhere, who is against the current border scheme of militarization/fences/English-only/penalties.

I've respected your posts for a long time and won't stop now although I do regard it as a personal attack.

So as you can see, I'm an equal opportunity offender: The Minutemen supporters on the board detest me just as much. Ta ta.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. dunno, but why do you spout RW disinformation?
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Why do some people here call the Minutemen "patriots"
Edited on Sat Jun-03-06 11:45 AM by UTUSN
They are true unionists, yet their position of anti-corporatism and lost-jobs puts them right in the Minutemen camp.

And to your previous post, there is a difference between insufficiency of facts and "misrepresentation."

Guess what, there are Democrats who support Joementum. I don't, although I appreciate all of his other very Lib positions and votes.

I didn't insult you or the other poster. And 25 years is 25 years, regardless. That's a short leap to pResident-for-life, call it whatever you want.

I don't know how old you are, but I've been voting for Dems (and ONLY Dems), very likely, longer than you've been alive, including the most Liberal ones out there.

Oh, and guess what, while I detest the Repuke, hardcore Cuban exile fascists (not the ones that are Dems), I also detest CASTRO. Let's chaw on that.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 04:30 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. You admit "insufficiency of facts" - yet you stick with what you said
re "requested to be installed for 25 years" - which is simply incorrect.

Interesting.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
20. Perhaps some critical thinking
about Chavez is in order.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. tell that to the corporate media
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. I think we have different definitions of
critical thinking.

No side is to be immune to it; and the side we believe in most we should endeavor examine the most critically, since it's the one we're more likely to not consider needing critiquing.

'Critical thinking' does not mean 'criticize' or even just 'point out the problems with' something.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. What makes you think people aren't thinking critically?
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cantstandbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
28. Just another kick!! n/t
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Jigarotta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 04:48 AM
Response to Original message
32. I really want to admire this guy, but I'm so crusty.
I don' t think there are many good people left in high power with a difference.. that are not under the influence of the uglies they generate their profits from us pleebs.

But even saying that, Viva Chavez!

just simple comparisons will do for me for now.
Chavez is not an illiterate warmongering asshole.

viva!
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