ROLLING STONE: WAS THE 2004 ELECTION STOLEN (COMPLETE ARTICLE)

[kpete]

Was the 2004 Election Stolen?
Republicans prevented more than 350,000 voters in Ohio from casting ballots or having their votes counted -- enough to have put John Kerry in the White House. BY ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR. Page 1 2 3 4

The complete article, with Web-only citations, follows. For more, see exclusive documents, sources, charts and commentary.

Like many Americans, I spent the evening of the 2004 election watching the returns on television and wondering how the exit polls, which predicted an overwhelming victory for John Kerry, had gotten it so wrong. By midnight, the official tallies showed a decisive lead for George Bush -- and the next day, lacking enough legal evidence to contest the results, Kerry conceded. Republicans derided anyone who expressed doubts about Bush's victory as nut cases in ''tinfoil hats,'' while the national media, with few exceptions, did little to question the validity of the election. The Washington Post immediately dismissed allegations of fraud as ''conspiracy theories,''(1) and The New York Times declared that ''there is no evidence of vote theft or errors on a large scale.''(2)

But despite the media blackout, indications continued to emerge that something deeply troubling had taken place in 2004. Nearly half of the 6 million American voters living abroad(3) never received their ballots -- or received them too late to vote(4) -- after the Pentagon unaccountably shut down a state-of-the-art Web site used to file overseas registrations.(5) A consulting firm called Sproul & Associates, which was hired by the Republican National Committee to register voters in six battleground states,(6) was discovered shredding Democratic registrations.(7) In New Mexico, which was decided by 5,988 votes,(8) malfunctioning machines mysteriously failed to properly register a presidential vote on more than 20,000 ballots.(9) Nationwide, according to the federal commission charged with implementing election reforms, as many as 1 million ballots were spoiled by faulty voting equipment -- roughly one for every 100 cast.(10)

much more at:
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen

[VolcanoJen]

1. Thank you so much!

Thank you Robert Kennedy Jr., thank you Rolling Stone, thank you BradBlog, and thank you, kpete.

This Buckeye is still waiting for justice.

I'm calling you from somewhere deep in Ohio,
Jennifer

[EVDebs]

2. Muchas gracias ! Bookmarked and nominated for greatest page nt

[stepnw1f]

3. Go Get Em' Jen!

[VolcanoJen]

11. I saw it with my own eyes. Kennedy is RIGHT.

From the article:

In what may be the single most astounding fact from the election, one in every four Ohio citizens who registered to vote in 2004 showed up at the polls only to discover that they were not listed on the rolls, thanks to GOP efforts to stem the unprecedented flood of Democrats eager to cast ballots. And that doesn?t even take into account the troubling evidence of outright fraud, which indicates that upwards of 80,000 votes for Kerry were counted instead for Bush. That alone is a swing of more than 160,000 votes -- enough to have put John Kerry in the White House.

As many of you know, during the campaign, I single-handedly registered 30+ voters... coworkers, friends, young people who wanted to know how to express their displeasure with the administration.

"How?" they would ask me.

"VOTE!" I would say. I always carried a stack of Registration Cards in my car, and eagerly signed everyone up.

I personally know of SEVEN voters I personally registered who never received a registration card. I looked up their precincts and gave them the information needed to vote.

These SEVEN people showed up... and they weren't on the rolls. I cannot express how sickened I felt, and continue to feel, about this.

If I registered about 30 voters, and I personally know SEVEN people who's rights were denied, then Kennedy is SPOT ON about his 1 in 4 statistic.

[stepnw1f]

17. That Would Have Sickened Me As Well

My God...did they ask you what happened?

[VolcanoJen]

23. They did ask, and I was heartbroken.

They were so disappointed. Three of them were coworkers I work with to this day.

And to this day, I wonder if they think I never mailed those cards. To be certain, I did NOT mail those cards. I took all of them, in one bundle, straight down to the Board of Elections office.

Now, I know that the other voters did get registered. But seven of thirty were... what? Thrown out? Shredded? Disposed of? Laughed at?

[stepnw1f]

30. I'm Sorry Jen.. That Must Have Been Really Difficult

Don't blame yourself... you did what you could, and probably inspired others to do what they can. Give yourself a pat on the back instead.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

59. I live in NY

But something similar happened to me too.

I was registered in a different state as I had moved to NY in late 2003. In April of '04, I filled out a form to have my registration transferred to NY state from IL. No problem.

In September of '04, I received a postcard from the state's election board specifically addressed to me and telling me exactly where I was supposed to go vote, which precinct I was in, etc. On Election Day, I took the card with me just in case.

The pollworkers indicated that I was not in their books; I wondered if this might happen as I had transferred my registration relatively recently (as far as bureaucracy runs, anyway). They gave me one of the "special" ballots and told me that the main registration office would look me up and if I had valid registration it would be counted. I figured this was what happened and that the registrar had forgotten to add me to the book given to the pollworkers; after all, I had receieved the notice from the election board telling me where to go, etc.

I left feeling patriotic and hopeful that we were going to take the WH back.

Of course, we didn't.

What stuck in my craw, however, was the letter I received from the election board about 4-5 months after the election. They informed me that I had never registered with the state etc. and so my vote was not counted. In fact, my ballot I had filled out was included in the rejection form letter they sent me.

It still makes me slightly nauseous just thinking about it.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

93. blame it on HARVA

that is, the Help American REPUBLICANs Vote Act.

[VolcanoJen]

268. That is one of the saddest things I have ever read in my entire life.

Wow, Tyrone. :-(

[mdmc]

284. awful

:mad: Dems that voted for HAVA are just as bad...

Man, this is disheartening...

[PurgedVoter]

80. There is a reason I call myself purgedvoter.

I have been purged twice. I have heard 4 different excuses why. I have heard that I was fixed when I was not.

[Cha]

170. That is so

Frustrating! Belated Welcome to DU!

[PurgedVoter]

183. Not really, that frustrating but thanks,

I live 5 miles from the Bush Library, so I figure that when I do get to vote it gets flipped anyway. Still, the fact that they are bothering to mess with my vote tells me they don't feel secure even in this area. The fun part is that I know election officials who have changed over to our way of thinking because of the experiences they have had helping with the polls.

[prolesunited]

257. Jason watched the same thing happen

in Clark County. They stole Ohio in 2004 as much as they did Florida in 2000.

[stepnw1f]

4. The Timing is Just Right

Kick for Democracy!

[blm]

55. Exactly - they needed the public to understand the CORRUPTION of GOPs in

Ohio and all over the country before an issue THIS HUGE could be DIGESTED.

[stepnw1f]

186. yes... just like the last Presidential Election in the Ukraine

nice "pre-emptive strike". :evilgrin:

[Notoverit]

5. Keep in mind, Ohio was only one state. Florida, New Mexico come to mind...

Kist because dear Bev muddied the waters about Florida so much that no decent person was able to look for anything, didn't make that result valid.
Greg Palast spoke of New mexico and a few other state.
So, that question mark in the title - purely rhetorical.

[bluefish]

6. Thanks for posting this...

I voted this for the Greatest Page.

[Deb]

7. You can also scroll down to the bottom and give opinions :-)

Thanks for posting this link, I'm sending this article out to others.

[CatWoman]

8. keep this sucker kicked

:kick:

and recommended!!!

[Downtown Hound]

9. Better late than never

is all I have to say. It's funny that when places like DU are discussing issues like this two years ago, we're labeled as paranoid and conspiracy theorists. Then a couple years later, this stuff starts to become mainstream.

[Esra Star]

129. In politics, timing is critical. I think Mr Kennedy has.......

done the research and is aware of the opponents.
He would also be familiar with their tactics.

[NJCher]

207. another reason I love DU

It's funny that when places like DU are discussing issues like this two years ago, we're labeled as paranoid and conspiracy theorists. Then a couple years later, this stuff starts to become mainstream.

Man, I would so hate being MAINSTREAM.

:puke:




Cher

[Stand and Fight]

10. This deserves to go straight to the TOP of the Greatest Page.

Recommending! Let's get this on the homepage, folks!

[babylonsister]

12. Thank you, kpete! As devastating as this story is, I'm so glad it's

finally seeing the light of day!

[kpete]

15. Sister and Brothers...

We WILL Win This Battle Yet!

[MelissaB]

13. This is a damn good article

and I'm not even half way through it yet.

:kick:

[aquart]

14. I want the thieves to hang.

They are so drenched in blood, they are almost invisible for the red.

[carolinalady]

16. Reading this article just depresses me. We have known this

for years, so it is great to see it validated, but what really upsets me is that it will only go down in the annals of history, and no one will be punished.

:banghead:

[Notoverit]

18. Exit polls vs results

[MsKandice01]

100. Do you have a link for that?

[eowyn_of_rohan]

114. Link

I think this is it
http://www.solarbus.org/stealyourelection/exitpolls.html

[Febble]

154. umm.....

that is one weird link. It turns up from time to time, and I once pursued it to Wikipedia, where, to my astonishment, it was attributed to me.

Well, it isn't mine, and it's wrong, as anyone can check by looking at the voting methods attributed to each state.

So to put things straight let me tell you how it was:

Precinct level discrepancy was lower, across all voting methodologies, including paper, in suburban and rural areas, and in urban areas of less than 50,000. In urban areas of more than 50,000, precinct level discrepancy was higher. There was also a significant difference by voting methodology. However, the difference was in the opposite direction to that implied by these charts: the discrepancy was significantly greater in precincts using older technology (levers, punchcards) than in precincts using DREs or optical scanners.

I do wish someone would put those charts out of their misery. I scrubbed the Wikipedia one (seeing as I was supposed to the source) but they keep turning up in the oddest places.

Cheers

Lizzie

[eowyn_of_rohan]

184. link to all the graphs

The one I posted showed only some of the states' graphs. This one has all of them.
http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=4272

The original webpage was here, back in early Nov., 2004, but is gone now.
http:// img103.exs.cx/img103/4526/exit_poll. gif

(web address showed in post as an x'd out image, so I had to separate the address components)

[fearnobush]

203. Remember These CNN screen shots.

Thanks to DU member EarlG for grabbing these screen shots on fraudlection night 2004!

<>

Kerry up 2 among men, up 6 among women at 12:21am

At 1:41am they changed the results to favor Bush:

<>

[VolcanoJen]

19. Is this going to be Rolling Stone's Cover Story?

Oh, I hope, I hope, I hope.

[mod mom]

87. yes!!!!!

[Gregorian]

20. The first page alone is absolutely damning!

This is everything we've been screaming about and yelling about for years now.

Of course, here we are in the same place we were in 2003. November is already upon us.

[LSK]

21. thanks, I was looking for this earlier

:thumbsup:

[in_cog_ni_to]

22. How much longer will the politicos IGNORE THIS FREAKIN' ISSUE???

I wonder if Chris Dodd will look at the evoting issue as he did when Kerry wanted it investigated or made an issue?

[truedelphi]

24. Curiouser and curiouser

That despite all these allegtions and actual PROOFS, what
are the penalties?

You get the feeling that if someon e had seen Barbara Bush
bent over in a Registrar of Voters' Office, throwing a switch altering
all Kerry votes to bush votes, she would have only been fined
with 200 hours of community service.

[hopeisaplace]

27. lol, actually I think the new republican way is

to come out and virtually admit things are wrong, gone wrong, going wrong, have gone wrong,
could still possibly go wrong, may or may not go wrong, ..."but we're on it and we're not going to
accept anything less than right". (oh.my.gawd.)

I swear it's the old let's just admit it, explain it away, and move on routine now...cause
neener-neener-you-can't-catch-me-neener-neener..

(lol, although not really lol, that's my opinion)

[Chiyo-chichi]

74. I think that is exactly right.

That is exactly what they do... and they get away with it.

[Gregorian]

Shouldn't Blackwell be in jail for subverting an election?

It's crazy. No justice. No media. America is a runaway mess.

It's difficult to stay rational around here. :)

[NEOBuckeye]

204. Absolutely. Blackwell is a criminal who deserves hard prison time.

I'm glad that SOMEONE has finally put the microscope over this terrible man and what he has done. Thank you, Robert Kennedy Jr!

Blackwell has the audacity to claim he is following in the footsteps of Martin Luther King and Ghandi, but as an African-American, he has in fact, betrayed the very movement and people like King who sacrificed their very lives, just so he would have an opportunity to attain government office in the first place. Ken Blackwell is nothing more than a slimy, fork-tongued, self-serving snake. He needs to take a very hard fall at the hands of justice.

[LaPera]

225. Blackwell WILL be the next Governor...The voting machines will steal it

very easily for him...Shit, Ohio...there is no doubt about this one!

[Raster]

50. she'd just plead "Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity"...

She was out of her beautiful mind.

[VolcanoJen]

25. Riveting.... look at this paragraph, for those who forgot the Exit Polls.

On the evening of the vote, reporters at each of the major networks were briefed by pollsters at 7:54 p.m. Kerry, they were informed, had an insurmountable lead and would win by a rout: at least 309 electoral votes to Bush's 174, with fifty-five too close to call.(28) In London, Prime Minister Tony Blair went to bed contemplating his relationship with President-elect Kerry.

My God.

[hopeisaplace]

29. I read a synopsis of this 2 years ago...where have they been???

oh yah, I forgot, sleeping.

[DoYouEverWonder]

35. Damn

I wish TIA was here.

I hope he's at least in good enough shape to get to see this article.

TIA nailed it.

[grasswire]

68. where is TIA?

Did something happen?

[DoYouEverWonder]

78. TruthIsAll

He did tons of work crunching data comparing exit polls and the vote counts.

Check out the election forum for some of his work.

Unfortunately, last I've heard he was very ill.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

144. I hope TruthIsAll knows he was a BIG BIG part in getting this story out

I think he was a consistent drip that became a waterfall. Maybe he saved Democracy for future generations. God bless him. I don't know him, but I read almost all of his postings and I used to think, "keep at, keep at it, someone will hear, someone will listen"

[CornField]

214. Can't read anything about the polls without thinking of TIA

Hope he is smiling at this report... after all, it's everything he's been saying since the election was stolen.

[renate]

127. it is so painful to read those words

I just want to cry, and cry, and cry, and cry, and cry....

[Peace Patriot]

26. There is much more to this story than illegal suppression of Dem votes

by Bushites election officials and operatives. Bushite corporations have gained control of the actual vote tabulation, with 'TRADE SECRET,' PROPRIETARY programming code in the new (2002-2004) electronic voting systems. Here's a rundown on this deeper problem, which will keep putting Bushites in office, illegitimately, now and forever, no matter how many Voting Rights Acts we pass or manage to get enforced--if we do not address the deeper problem of NON-TRANSPARENT, corporate-run elections.

OVERVIEW: AMERICAN REVOLUTION II

What we now have is several big electronic voting corporations with very close ties to the Republican Party and rightwing causes--Diebold, ES&S and Sequoia-- 'counting' all our votes with 'TRADE SECRET,' PROPRIETARY programming code--code so secret that not even our secretaries of state are permitted to review it--with virtually no audit/recount controls. This is the result of the infamous "Help America Vote Act" of 2002, a $4 billion electronic voting boondoggle engineered by the biggest crooks in Congress, Tom Delay and Bob Ney (and abetted by Bilderber 'Democrat' Christopher Dodd).

Our elections are now NON-TRANSPARENT and UNVERIFIABLE, and under the control of partisan corporations. The $4 billion and millions in lavish lobbying were also used to corrupt election officials from one end of the land to other. And those they have not been able to corrupt, they have driven from office (Kevin Shelly in California), or sought to intimidate (Ion Sancho in Florida, and others). Corruption or bullying by the Bushite Feds has resulted in the widespread purchase of this extremely insecure, unreliable and hackable--and very expensive--election theft machinery.

Restoring TRANSPARENT elections is a MUST DO, PRIORITY ONE, MATTER, if we want our country back. Without the right to vote, we can do little or nothing to restore lawful government. We can protest. We can be appalled. But if the will of the majority--which has always been for peace and justice, and good government, consistently over the last six years, in ALL the issue polls--cannot be enforced, then we might as well be shouting to the wind.

--------------------------------------

SOME RESOURCES FOR AMERICAN REVOLUTION II:

Practical suggestions for the immediate future:

1. ABSENTEE BALLOT VOTING. Promote absentee ballot voting. It's not the ultimate solution, by any means, but it at least provides a tangible paper record for challenging suspicious election results, and for recounts and investigations. (Absentee ballots were a great help to investigators in 2004.) Absentee ballot voting is also a form of protest against the machines. 50% of Californians are now requesting Absentee Ballots. If enough people do it, the machines will be obsolete; then we can work on getting rid of the central tabulators.

2. MONITOR THE ELECTIONS. Join with others to closely monitor the coming elections and gather and document evidence. See www.UScountvotes.org, and other resources, below. UScountvotes.org needs donations!

3. DEMAND INDEPENDENT EXIT POLLS. Demand that the Democratic Party fund INDEPENDENT EXIT POLLS. Exit polls are used worldwide to verify elections and check for fraud. The war profiteering corporate news monopoly exit polls cannot be trusted (they are doctored to match the results from the voting machines' secret programming code; rather than being used to verify elections, they are used to confirm NON-TRANSPARENT "official results"). The Democratic Party owes us, big time, for their lack of vigilance--and in some cases corruption--on electronic voting. This is one critically needed thing that they can do to help.

4. THINK LONG TERM. Saving our democracy promises to be a long hard struggle. We obviously can't get rid of these machines before the '06 elections, so focus on doing our best with the Diebold/ES&S handicap (a 5% to 10% "thumb on the scales" for Bushites and warmongers), and getting rid of these machines afterward, for '08 and beyond.

5. TELL PEOPLE THE TRUTH. They NEED to know it. Engage them in the fight. Bumper sticker: "Help Us Beat the Machines--VOTE!" There is nothing more demoralizing and disempowering than constantly losing and not knowing WHY. There is evidence that the machines CAN be beaten by massive turnout. Get people involved! Help them to SEE what's happening! THEY will solve the problem, ultimately--if they can only IDENTIFY what it is!

6. PRESSURE LOCAL/STATE ELECTION OFFICIALS. Right now, the best place to fight this fight is at the state/local level, where ordinary people still have some influence. Bush's Congress is NOT going to give us back our right to vote--they are the ones who took it away (with the collusion of some corrupt Dems). Don't look to the Feds--look to your local county registrar, your state election boards, your secretaries of state. Demand TRANSPARENT elections. Also educate and mobilize your local Democratic Party groups.

History has chosen us to save this great democracy and pass it on to the future. The first priority in this historic fight is restoring our right to vote--the mechanism by which we exercise our sovereignty as a people. Without it, we have no power. We MUST change this.

Never give up on our right to vote! NEVER!

----------------------

ADDITIONAL RESOURCES FOR AMERICAN REVOLUTION II:

Hopeful signs - latest news:

California voters sue the state over Diebold:
www.VoterAction.org is suing the state of California and 18 Calif county registrars on behalf of 25 California voter/plaintiffs, on the illegal Diebold "certification" by Schwarzenegger appointee Bruce McPherson.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2180496
Seven of these counties have promised the judge they would use PAPER BALLOTS, and were dismissed from this lawsuit (4/27/06).
http://kcbs.com/pages/29285.php
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2249205

Maryland rejects Diebold:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x418263

Florida - anti-trust accusations against Diebold, ES&S and Sequoia, re: heroic Florida election official Ion Sancho:
(FLA AG subpoenas the companies)
http://www.computerworld.com/governmenttopics/government/legalissues/story/0,10801,110192,00.html
http://www.tbo.com/news/politics/MGBKSY8W8LE.html
(info & discussion)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2183630

Utah county clerk fights back!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x419226

(Tide turning?) New York Times: "New Fears of Security Risks in Electronic Voting Systems" (5/12/06)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2278829

-----

INFORMATION AND ACTIVIST RESOURCES for American Revolution II:

www.votersunite.org (MythBreakers - easy primer on electronic voting--one of the myths is that HAVA requires electronic voting; it does not.)
www.UScountvotes.org (statistical monitoring of '06 and '08 elections--they need donations)


(Activist sites with links to state activist groups or info)
www.votetrustusa.org (news of this great movement from around the country)
www.votersunited.org (good general info, and state links)
www.verifiedvoting.org (great activist site)
www.solarbus.org/election/index.shtml (fab compendium of all election info)

www.freepress.org (devoted to election reform)
www.bradblog.com (also great, and devoted to election reform)
www.TruthIsAll.net (analysis of the 2004 election)* :patriot: :applause: :patriot:
www.votepa.us (well-organized local group of citizen activists in Pennsylvania, where important legal issues are at stake, including state's rights over election systems)
Provisions of the PA lawsuit:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x423739

The Voter Confidence Resolution
http://tinyurl.com/rlnr2 (“We Do Not Consent”)
http://guvwurld.blogspot.com (GuvWurld blog main page)
http://tinyurl.com/amryg (Voter Confidence Resolution

www.debrabowen.com (Calif Senator running for Sec of State to reform election system)
www.johnbonifaz.com (running for Massachusetts Sec of State on strong election reform and antiwar platform)

:applause: CALIFORNIANS, VOTE FOR DEBRA BOWEN IN THE DEM PRIMARY THIS JUNE 6! :applause:

*Some tributes to TruthIsAll, who is very ill:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x417007
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x417231
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x675477

Congressional bills:

Russ Holt's HR 550 requires a real paper ballot, bans secret software in "voting machines", and has more than 170 co-sponsors, but the audit required is too weak, it promotes electronic voting and centralized power, and the secret software might be permitted to continue in the central tabulators (the bill is not clear). At lot of discussion at DU of the loopholes/pitfalls in HR 550 (many DUers support the bill):
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x422926
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x421136
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=422967&mesg_id=422967
To sign the HR 550 petition: http://www.rushholt.com/petition.html

(Note: Senate Bill-SB 330 and House-HR704 simply require a "voter verified paper audit trail" (VVPAT), which may be best for the moment.)


Also of interest:

Michael Collins (Autorank)'s searing election reform article for New Zealand's Scoop.com
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x971363

Bob Koehler (-- four recent election reform initiatives in Ohio, predicted to win by 60/40 votes, flipped over, on election day, into 60/40 LOSSES!--the biggest flipover we've seen yet; the election theft machines and their masters are now dictating election policy! Title: "Poll Shock" 11/24/05)
http://commonwonders.com/archives/col321.htm

Bob Koehler's latest: "Trust us: Take this box and stuff it" (3/16/06)
http://commonwonders.com/archives/col337.htm
More Koehler:
www.tmsfeatures.com/tmsfeatures/subcategory.jsp?file=20051124ctnbk-a.txt&catid=1824&code=ctnbk

Amaryllis (Diebold, ES&S, Sequoia lavish lobbying of election officials - Beverly Hilton, Aug. '05)
www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x380340

HOWARD DEAN remarks on electronic voting machines 04/06
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x994507

------------------------------------------------

Throw Diebold, ES&S and ALL election theft machines into 'Boston Harbor' NOW!

:think: :patriot: :woohoo: :patriot: :think:

-----------

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it." --Thomas Jefferson, The Declaration of Independence

[me b zola]

208. Outstanding work, Peace Patriot

May we right this wrong.


((((((Peace Patriot))))) :patriot: :applause: :patriot:

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

28. I dedicate this story...

To Dear TruthIsAll. Verily, he wrote so damn much of it and was a voice crying out in the wilderness.

God bless him.

[hopeisaplace]

33. absolutely, I remember a lot of his material...I read so much

on this issue after the election - I was outraged.
(was a DU Lurker in those days)

[PhilYerHead]

135. I was a lurker until this post.

TruthIsAll did us all a great service. We're lucky to have him.

Phil

[hopeisaplace]

185. Welcome to DU, :)

he sure did..:)

:hi:

[DemExpat]

52. I will join you on this, T_S.....

I dedicate this to TIA as well, and am very happy and at the same time strangely saddened to see lots of what he put together come to more light.

:kick:

DemEx

[blm]

54. Square that salute, buddy.

To TIA.

[lavenderdiva]

64. what has happened to TIA?

I read a couple of threads by his sister, but never heard how he is doing?

on edit: he would LOVE this article. Have his writings ever been published anywhere? if so, any links?

[WiseButAngrySara]

106. I have the same question! I think of TIA everytime I read about exit

poll analysis! How I loved his articles (I was a new DUer at the time). I hope he is well, but like you, I haven't been aware of an update on his reportedly 'grave' condition.

[rainy]

107. Google Truthisall he can be contacted. I just wrote him a letter.

[JPZenger]

31. Scrubbing people off the registration lists in Ohio

At least Blackwell is probably going to lose the Governor's race in Ohio. Here's another excerpt from the article:

"To stem the tide of new registrations, the Republican National Committee and the Ohio Republican Party attempted to knock tens of thousands of predominantly minority and urban voters off the rolls through illegal mailings known in electioneering jargon as ''caging.'' During the Eighties, after the GOP used such mailings to disenfranchise nearly 76,000 black voters in New Jersey and Louisiana, it was forced to sign two separate court orders agreeing to abstain from caging. But during the summer of 2004, the GOP targeted minority voters in Ohio by zip code, sending registered letters to more than 200,000 newly registered voters(64) in sixty-five counties. On October 22nd, a mere eleven days before the election, Ohio Republican Party Chairman Bob Bennett -- who also chairs the board of elections in Cuyahoga County -- sought to invalidate the registrations of 35,427 voters who had refused to sign for the letters or whose mail came back as undeliverable. Almost half of the challenged voters were from Democratic strongholds in and around Cleveland.

There were plenty of valid reasons that voters had failed to respond to the mailings: The list included people who couldn't sign for the letters because they were serving in the U.S. military, college students whose school and home addresses differed,and more than 1,000 homeless people who had no permanent mailing address. But the undeliverable mail, Bennett claimed, proved the new registrations were fraudulent.

By law, each voter was supposed to receive a hearing before being stricken from the rolls. Instead, in the week before the election, kangaroo courts were rapidly set up across the state at Blackwell's direction that would inevitably disenfranchise thousands of voters at a time -- a process that one Democratic election official in Toledo likened to an ''inquisition.'' Not that anyone was given a chance to actually show up and defend their right to vote: Notices to challenged voters were not only sent out impossibly late in the process, they were mailed to the very addresses that the Republicans contended were faulty. Adding to the atmosphere of intimidation, sheriff's detectives in Sandusky County were dispatched to the homes of challenged voters to investigate the GOP's claims of fraud."

--------
(Comment - By the way, if this system had been used in Pennsylvania, Rick Santorum would have been kicked off the voting rolls. When the Pittsburgh paper mailed a questionaire to his only address within PA., it came back to them with no forwarding address, because Santorum really lives in Virginia.)

[lavenderdiva]

32. thank you kpete, for posting this--

I have bookmarked your thread, nominated it, and am now kicking it. This is one of the most important articles to be published recently.

[rox63]

34. I'll have to pick up the hard copy at the store

or print it out myself. 'Cause it's a long 'un, and staring at the computer screen for that long will surely make me blind before my time.

K&R :kick:

[TheUnspeakable]

36. thank you-k&r !!!

[originalpckelly]

37. Told KO to cover this on Countdown...

hopefully he will read my e-mail.

[helderheid]

39. GREAT idea!

[PearliePoo2]

38. Reading this

brings it all back......
I was intently watching the exit polls. I whooped for joy, turned off my laptop and headed to town to buy a bottle of good bubbly. I felt good about my campaign involvement since I had encouraged 4 young people to register to vote for their first time. I answered all their questions about the importance of this election to the best of my ability.
I remember arriving back home with Scampi and champagne for two and that is when the "flip" happened.
I was incredulous, nauseated,..... still am. bastards :cry:

[Downtown Hound]

66. I did exactly the same thing

Although I went and bought two bottles, heh, heh. And I got home, put on Air America, and all of a sudden, WHAM! I could practically pinpoint the moment that the switch happened. Funny how we we're both doing the same thing, huh? When it became clear that Kerry was going to lose, I knew right away what had happened, and I was so mad that I threw what was left of my champagne bottle across the room and it shattered on my fireplace. Fuckin' Bush. He's destroyed my country, the world's environment, Iraq, and now my champagne! Is there no end to this man's destruction?

[PearliePoo2]

84. yup...

I was literally bouncing around the store, spent $$ I shouldn't have on the feast, wanted to shout from the rooftops.
After the horror became clear, I fired off a GREAT (half-intoxicated) 2 page e-mail rant to a few repug in-laws.
They responded that it was just sour grapes on my part. (they're now ex-in-laws, ha!)
A year later, they are now grumbling...well fuck 'em.
Seems you can't find anyone now that admits voting for the bastards. Well, I know better and I'll never forgive them. In fact, I don't want to ever talk to them again or anyone else that was so stupid to not see these fascists for what they are.
As far as the environment and our country, yes, you are right. I feel the same way.
I spend a lot of time camping and fishing. Highway 101 down the Washington, Oregon, and California coast is one of my favorite trips.
But seeing the clear-cuts behind the ribbon of trees along the road makes me furious, especially knowing they won't be happy until they hack down the last old-growth fir or Redwood.
Hmmmm, looks like I've got another mini-rant going!
What can we do???? I still have energy left.
(hope you didn't cut your feet on the broken glass!)

[Downtown Hound]

95. No, I was okay, heh, heh

Generally I'm not a mean or violent drunk that throws tantrums, but that night was an exception, and I was alone, so I didn't scare anyone else.

As to what we can do, I think the most important thing is simply to carry on. Keep on doing what we're doing. Get our personal lives in order so we can devote more time to the fight. Marching, posting on DU, listening to Air America, volunteering for campaigns, all of these things are important. But the most important thing is to not let them get the best of us. When we give in to despair, they've won. And we can't let them win. In the end, they will undo themselves. Remember what Ghandi said,

"When I despair, I remember that all through history, the way of truth and love has always prevailed. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall. Think of it....always."

More and more, I see these words as coming true. As for me, I volunteered my time for the Kerry campaign, just as you did. And now I'm about to go off to college for a second degree in mechanical engineering so I can learn about ways to combat global warming. What we need to do is just stay sane and keep a long term focus. These bastards are going to be with us for a long time, but we can't let them get the better of us. Just keep living your life, contribute where you can, and look for ways that you can help. If enough people keep doing that then we are going to beat these bastards someday, I have no doubt of it.

[PearliePoo2]

111. nice words Hound

I keep the hope too. I have turned many people on to Air America 1090 in Seattle.
I have XM radio channel 167 playing quietly at my workplace. heh heh (can Randi play quietly?)
I know a couple of co-workers who have "flipped". Yes!
Good for you and your pursuit to combat global warming. I have been to Glacier National Park and have seen the melting first hand. Going To The Sun Highway scared the crap out of me though.
Long term focus, long term focus, lather, rinse, repeat.
Nice talking to you. Best of luck at school!

[Epiphany4z]

172. I joined

my Local Dem group. We help get Dems elected in our little corner of the world and do some fund raising, we run LTTE contest registration drives ...I said after the election we have to start local give them less places they can pull this shit and that is what I have done. On the plus size its been great fun , I get to meet candidates, go to marches and get all the local gossip..hee hee. I was evan elected secretary although I have no idea why..lol I can't spell or read my own dam writing ..lol

[tinrobot]

85. I know when Bush gave the signal to flip the election...

It was when he held that bogus little press conference at about 10pm.

I'm convinced that was the signal, because right after that, things turned.

[blogslut]

152. Was that the quick trip to Ohio?

Cause that trip gave me pause. That like, hour-long quickie to Ohio on election day?

[tinrobot]

156. After that...

He did go to Ohio during the day, which was odd in itself.

But that night, he watchedd results at the White House and, right when it was looking bleak, Bush came out read some sort of statement. Usually, it's tradition that the candidates remain quiet until they concede or claim victory.

Right after the staement was read, the tallies started flipping.

[blogslut]

163. hmmm

See, what got me about Dubya's peppy lil' visit to Ohio was that it was a great excuse to blanket the city(s) he hit with massive security. If his Daddy and his Daddy's old boss were any indicators, that would entail, streets cordoned off, sharpshooters on rooftops, ambulances, SS vehicles, local police all over...

A tinfioly gal would call that move a state-wide lockdown.

[blm]

190. same thing happened in 2000.... wasn't it earlier, though... I thought it

was about 7 or 8.

[Epiphany4z]

169. It sure does

I remember watching the number and some reporter talking about Rove poking his head in to where the Bush was saying something is wrong with these exit polls that is when I knew Rove knew he had in fact pulled it off.

[NastyDiaper]

40. Went to bed in 2k and 2k4 expecting the best..

..but ending up with the worst. So they stuffed the ballots in value voter country.

Hey, if they are willing to start a war just to profit, should we really expect that this would be beneath them?

Or did we just refuse to belive it could be as bad as it really is.

[helderheid]

43. I suspected with the machines they'd steal it but was hopeful.

Woke up and cried the entire day the next day.

[mdmc]

92. kick for your sig!

[renate]

131. kick for that ADORABLE picture!

Reading a year and a half too late about this mess, I feel sick and brokenhearted at how a presidential election was stolen in broad daylight with not a dissenting peep from the corporate media, and what a disaster that was for the entire world, especially those in need of compassion and a helping hand....

...anyway, what I meant to say was....

Your picture is a gorgeous, precious reminder that there is still so much joy and love in a world that can seem a little overwhelming at times.

Give that darling baby a big :hug: for me!

[mdmc]

199. thanks for your post

peace and low stress!

[Gregorian]

41. Well, there it is America. Laid out for all to see.

An illegal election to reelect an already illegal president who started an illegal war.

There is nothing legitimate about politics in America since December of 1999.

[skypilot]

42. kick

*

[tinfoilinfor2005]

44. Blackwell not only has dirt on his hands, they are covered in blood

as well. He is directly responsible for the deaths of thousands of people.

[Raster]

48. blackwell is guilty of Electoral Treason, a crime which should be

punishable by death.

[NEOBuckeye]

206. I'd settle for hard prison time.

Being held accountable for his crimes is the one thing Blackwell probably fears more than anything. But then again, he comes off as being so smug and arrogant that he probably doesn't believe that he will ever be caught and nailed to the wall.

My aversion to capital punishment fosters my belief that Blackwell should not be put to death for what he has done. But I do believe that he should definitely be made to witness his entire political career, his name and everything he has worked for totally exposed, discredited and then completely and irreparably brought to ruin in a very public and universally broadcast trial.

[Beetwasher]

45. Stunning and Indisputable

k&r

[memory]

46. Finally!

I remain hopeful that the true depths of the acts of this administration will be exposed to the very bright light of day and explode into the consciousness of the American people.

It's still hard to understand that most people remain totally "in the dark"!

I'm so glad that Robert F. Kennedy and Rolling Stone are talking about this.:bounce:

[Jeffersons Ghost]

47. damn good article

[Kurovski]

49. Is this a ground-breaking article? It feels like it.

Will the media and elected leaders finally break through the relative silence and deal with ALL the facts in this case?

Very well documented. A great deal of effort went into that beautiful article.

Thank you to ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR. and all who fight the good fight.

[MelissaB]

51. Hee! He even links to the Blackwell letter

http://download11.rbn.com/rstone/rstone/download/misc/blackwellfundraisingltr.pdf

[DemExpat]

53. Looks like others now joining the conspiracy nuts like us at DU

Validation feels good, but taking so long saddens and angers me.

DemEx

[emulatorloo]

56. kicking n/t

[Amaryllis]

57. Kick

[kpete]

58. Printer Friendly Version

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen/print

[tandem5]

63. The printer friendly only shows the first quarter of the article. nt

[NoSheep]

259. I thought it stopped in a weird place

[Patsy Stone]

60. Thanks, kpete!

I look forward to savoring each word. :thumbsup:

[dwp6577]

61. Great article, k & r....blahblahblah...but

can't anything be done about this. A lawsuit, or any kind of legal action...put kerry where he belongs and bush where he belongs. Can some expert chime in? We could send this to Keith O until the cows come home, but will it make a bit of difference. What about the next election? Will it be any different?...anyone sense my frustration with this whole #*%&($ mess. If nothing can be done about the past and nothing will be done to prevent it in the future, why are we wasting our time agonizing... ;(

[daveskilt]

62. kickeroni!

[Ladyhawk]

65. Thanks so much kpete.

I've "waffled" on whether or not I believe the election was stolen, but awhile back I became convinced that not being sure is a HUGE DEAL. If we can't be certain our elections are fair, our confidence in our government collapses. Mine has collapsed, big time!

I'm convinced this is the number 1 issue. I don't know WTF to do about it, but hey.

[Initech]

67. In short, was the election stolen? YES!!!!!!!!!!!

There's no doubt in my mind that it was stolen, and that article is a damn good read.

If you think it wasnt stolen, you should lose all voting privaleges.

[AAARRRGGGHHH]

69. YYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEESSSSSSSS!!!

Give 'em Hell, RFK Jr.

[fooj]

70. The truth. FINALLY.

This is why I now say that I wear my tinfoil hat PROUDLY!

[mod mom]

71. Will the Chair of the Franklin Co Dem Party now offer election reformers

an apology for referring to us as "conspiracy theorists", now that a prominent member of the Dem Party (outside the CBC and Sen Boxer) has spoke out?

As I wrap-up my testimony, Mr. Chairman, I would like to address two situations in Franklin County that have been taken up by the conspiracy-theorists and internet-bloggers alike as quote-unquote evidence of fraud and their reason why Franklin County’s and Ohio’s election results cannot be trusted. Regrettably, even Ohio’s Secretary of State and some of our fellow elections officials have joined their lot in wrongly blaming the statewide recount on these events in Franklin County. These two situations are, of course, the long-lines at voting locations allegedly due to the intentional misallocation of voting machines and the misreported, unofficial election night results from one of our county’s precincts.

Yes, Mr. Chairman, there were long lines to vote in Franklin County – in all of Franklin County. Some have alleged Republicans at the Board of Elections or Matt Damschroder himself intentionally caused these lines and that those precincts in predominantly African-American and-or Democrat precincts were deliberately targeted for a reduction in voting machines. I can assure you Mr. Chairman, both as a leader in the black community, Chairman of the local Democratic Party, and as Chairman of the Board of Elections that not one of these accusations are true. On Election Day, I spent several hours driving around the county in the rain and observed long lines in every part of the county: urban and suburban neighborhoods, black and white communities, Democrat and Republican precincts. These lines were the result of three things and these three things only. First, nearly one hundred thousand more people voted on Election Day 2004 than during 2000 – this is almost a 25% percent increase over the previous presidential election. Which brings me to the second reason. Despite the fact that we had a dramatic and historic increase in the number of voters compared to previous elections the resources available to the Board of Elections remained static. In 2000, the Board of Elections owned an inventory of 2,904 voting machines for 680,000 registered voters in 759 precincts. Four years later, in 2004, the Board of Elections owned an inventory of 2,904 voting machines – the exact same number of voting machines as in 2000 – a static resource that had to be spread even thinner to meet the increased demand of voting machines for 847,000 registered voters in 788 precincts.

http://cha.house.gov/hearings/Testimony.aspx?TID=668

THERE WAS NOT FAIR ALLOCATION OF MACHINES!

Sorry, but this irks me that after I worked so hard and full time for the Dems in '04 that this is what one of our party chairs said under oath. BTW, in my Franklin Co precinct we waited for 15 minutes to vote on election day during pre-work rush at 8 am-my precinct went for *. Later that day a neighbor said there were no lines at all when he voted. My husband, a "runner" for the Kerry Campaign GOTV activities filed an affidavit saying short or no lines in our ward.

[stevenleser]

72. I did a lot of interviews during the whole Ohio Recount mess...

I will post links later, but for those in a rush, Google my name in quotes "Steven Leser" and Ohio.

[renate]

136. I did...and I'd like to see more links, too!

:applause:

Not many people can say they scooped RFK Jr.! Thanks for all you did to get this story reported.

[stevenleser]

177. My pleasure, check this out...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x214715

[oxbow]

73. We need to send this to all of our reps.

We need to force this onto the front page od the newspapers and into a democratic committee hearing room in 06

[blm]

187. Also send a copy to the editors of your local newspaper.

.

[Generator]

75. Yes it's on the cover of the magazine-top banner!

Just got it in the mail right now. Going to read.

It actually says "Did Bush steal the 2004 election?" in black letters.

[obreaslan]

76. Kick for...

Every Complicit so-called "Reporter" that ignores this story
:kick:

For every slimy Republican (at this point I include them all, no exceptions)
:kick:

For every wishy-washy Democrat who can't admit that they are letting our freedoms disappear by the minute
:kick:

For every voter in this country whose vote was thrown away
:kick:

And for the tear that runs down my cheek every time I think about this
:kick:

[robertpaulsen]

112. "And we'll find you a leader that you can elect"

We'll spit through the streets of the cities we wreck
And we'll find you a leader that you can elect
Those treaties we signed were a pain in the neck
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
We're the Cops of the World


Fantastic avatar, obreaslan!

[Catherine Vincent]

77. K&R!

Reading material for the bus!

[jsamuel]

79. felt like I should say something too

but it is a very well written article

for old times sake:

[MallRat]

81. "We... cannot be certain that the right man now occupies the Oval Office."

If that isn't screaming for a front page headline in newspapers from coast-to-coast, I'm not sure what would.

-MR

[tinrobot]

82. We knew most of this the day after the election

Anyone who reads DU had almost all of this information readily available. I know, because I was one of the ones crunching numbers for the Florida and Ohio results.

Why it took two and a half years for a major publication to publish it is beyond me.

And why Kerry didn't challenge the results still confounds me.

It still makes me sick to my stomach.

[disndat]

116. tinrobot is exactly right.

Kerry's early morning concession is a deep mystery. There were already news of irregularity reports of the Ohio vote. Kerry had a big war chest hire lawyers to look into this, in the eventuality of a repeat of the Florida '00 debacle. Yet, I heard that Kerry quickly called off the lawyers hired for this purpose and instead hired a law partner from Bob Taft's law firm to carry on this investigation. OK, if this is all water under the bridge, what is being done to prevent such election frauds this November. We know for sure that there are still a lot of Diebold machines out there. Registration forms and paper ballots could be easily dumped or destroyed. Howard Dean should make a gigantic effort to organize an infrastructure to oversee voting irregularities especially in the swing states. We know for sure the the Bush administration have a lot at stake, like impeachment of the would, therefore will pull out all the stops to prevent the House, at least, from returning a Democratic majority.

[KittyWampus]

123. Consider, PROVING Fraud is a Catch 22. You can't get into the machines

without physical, tangible proof of error or wrongdoing... but you can't get the physical, tangible proof without getting into the machines.

Understand?

Kerry had no hard evidence that would have worked legally to mount the challenge. And there was no way for him to get that evidence.

It bothers me terribly that DU'ers don't grasp that.

[disndat]

166. Exit polls are accurate

Statistically such errors are 959,00 to one ("Fooled Again" Mark Crispin Miller). Kerry called the Bush campaign very early the next day to concede the election. Something like 8:30 am and made it official before noon that day. I even heard that Guiliani personally phoned Kerry to concede. The count of overseas vote and provisional ballots weren't completed. Then what was the hurry?

[OnTheOtherHand]

173. nope, sorry, that's my field

The 1992 exit polls were almost as far off as the 2004 exit polls. So if people want to argue that the 2004 exit polls were accurate, it would have been really helpful for them to have alleged massive fraud back in 1992 (but not in 2000, when the exit polls were closer to the official returns).

Lots of things happened in 2004, but the exit polls don't appear to be very useful in sorting them out.

[Yupster]

202. And in 88 the exit polls showed

Bush and Dukakis running neck and neck though Bush won by 8 % and in 88 the networks called Pennsylvania for Dukakis based on the exit polls and had to take it back the next morning.

And in 2000, the exit polls had Bush and Gore running even in Alabama even though Bush won the state by 15 %.

But then the exit polls are never wrong.

Except when they are.

[OnTheOtherHand]

247. haven't we been here before? ;)

Do you know which network(s) called PA for Dukakis? I'm not at all sure that's right. (I have my doubts about the neck-and-neck thing, too, although I really need to pin down at some point what the ABC projections were showing. Apparently the CBS projections showed Bush ahead although the raw interview totals did not -- probably because they deliberately oversampled black precincts.)

Lots of people here like to believe that I will argue only one side of this issue, but I do try to keep the factual record straight.

[Yupster]

276. The Dukakis Pennsylvania call

was from my memory. Maybe I'll google after work if I have time.

Anyway, in 1988 I was a high school history teacher and I sent the kids home on election day with a map to color in as each state was called and a list of states in order of how Republican or Democratic they were.

In other words there was a list of states with their electoral votes according to their Republican tendencies Utah first, etc until I got to about 290 electoral votes.

There was a similar list for Democratic states starting with DC, etc going for 290 electoral votes.

I told the kids they had to watch the electoral returns on tv and when a state was called they were to color in the state (Republican was blue back then) and also cross out the state on whichever list or lists it was on either blue or red.

The point was to show the kids which states were important and who was winning. I told them they could go to bed when either list started having the other color on it.

For instance if Dukakis won Maryland it didn't mean anything because it was # 10 on his must win state list. But if Dukakis won Illinois it meant a lot because that was at the very bottom of his must win list and if Dukakis won Ohio, the election was over because that wasn't even on his must win list. I thought Dukakis had a good chance to win so I was hoping for an exciting night and a meaningful exercise. It didn't work as well in 84 except kids were able to say Reagan won very early in the evening.

Pennsyvania was a strong memory because it was a teaching moment. Many of the kids came in with it colored red for Dukakis even though at about 2 am it became apparent it was going for Bush.

I told everyone to look at the 6 o clock news the next night to see how they explained the wrong call, and the answer was they didn't.

In back of the anchorman the election map still sat just like it was the night before, but while the night before the map had Pennsylvania colored red, for the evening news it had mysteriously switched to blue without any explanation.

I remember having a nice laugh with the 120 or so students that next day on the subject of having your own news show means never having to say you're sorry.

Anyway, hope that helps.

[OnTheOtherHand]

283. ah, cool story

To think that in 2004, I could have had my Modern American Presidency students staring at the initial exit poll tabulations with me. What a teaching moment that would have been!

Acording to Andrew Rosenthal, writing in the New York Times on 11/10/88, "Election night was not without its glitches. ABC News had to retract an estimate that Gov. Michael S. Dukakis had won in Maryland, and CBS News had to retract an estimate that he had taken Illinois. Such mistakes are rare in network coverage; CBS says its mistake was only the second out of the hundreds of predictions it has made in the last seven years." Ironically, the story (on page B5) was apparently titled, "The Elections: Polling; Surveys' Accuracy Fails to Curb the Criticism" (not referring to the exit polls, evidently!). In that story, the criticism was "too much polling." In an AP story, the criticism was that CBS and ABC called the race while polls were still open in the West. But I digress.

Oh, the AP story also says that Dan Rather apologized on behalf of CBS on Wednesday morning.

[me b zola]

216. OTOH...

...otoh, exit polls are used to determine legitimacy of elections in other nations. Seems like one more example of American exceptionalism if you ask me. Other nations must show that their election results match their exit polling to be deemed legitimate, yet here we say that there must be a problem with the exit polling if the results don't match. Transparency is another "marker" of a legitimate election, yet there is ZERO transparency (see "vapor ballots") in American elections.

OTOH, bla-bla-bla-bla-bla-bla-bla-bla-bla-bla-bla-bla-bla......

[OnTheOtherHand]

246. say what?

"Other nations must show that their election results match their exit polling to be deemed legitimate"

Umm, evidence?

I don't know of any election anywhere that has been overturned, at the behest of the U.S. or anyone else, primarily on the basis of exit polls. It seems to be one of those things that Everyone Knows, but no one can prove. Can you? bla-bla-bla indeed.

I favor transparency, too, but that doesn't mean that I assume the exit polls are perfect. The fact that the exit polls aren't perfect makes transparency more important, not less.

[me b zola]

253. Nations that want to prove legitimacy of their elections...

Nations that want to prove legitimacy of their elections request or allow election monitors. Jimmy Carter has been an election monitor for foreign elections. Exit polling & transparency are two of the markers that are used by election monitors to deem election results legitimate.

The 2K4 Ukranian election was an example of an election that was challanged because of it's irregularities. Election results not matching the exit polling was one of the first indicators of irregulaities that was documented in the Ukranian election that ultimately lead to that election being held again.

Exit polling is remarkably reliable and accurate. It looks as though the only point that we are going to agree on is the need for transparency.

[OnTheOtherHand]

267. well, it is important to check facts

If we are going to cite Jimmy Carter as an election monitor -- and I think we have it on record that the Carter Center wouldn't monitor a U.S. election because the system is too broken! -- then we might look to the Carter Center to see what it has to say about exit polling.

Jennifer McCoy on exit polls in Venezuela, 2004: "In countries as polarised as Venezuela, exit polls are risky. They require those conducting them to avoid bias in choosing whom to query, to avoid socio-economic bias in their dress and speech, and to work in a wide variety of neighbourhoods. They also require voters to tell the truth—despite intimidation and strong peer pressure on both sides. Any of these elements could have been lacking." http://www.cartercenter.org/doc1826.htm

Carter Center recommendations for Mexico, 1994: "Avoid exit polls, which are unreliable in a climate of suspicion and which will create a negative atmosphere if the voters feel they are being watched. Quick counts, however, are essential, but they must be well coordinated and the public needs to be informed of their significance." http://www.cartercenter.org/documents/1154.pdf

Carter Center reflecting on its 1994 recommendation with reference to the 2000 Mexican election: "In 1994, The Carter Center had
recommended that exit polls not be used for two reasons. First, and most important, voters needed to learn that their votes were secret. If it became known that people were asking how they voted, that would compromise their vote. Secondly, we felt exit polls would be unreliable precisely because of voter mistrust, and, therefore, would be misleading." http://www.cartercenter.org/documents/278.pdf

Carter Center and National Democratic Institute observers on Peru, 2001: "In addition, the observers encouraged the use of quick counts on election day to build confidence in the results, noting that these statistical projections of the vote totals are more accurate than exit polls." http://www.cartercenter.org/doc120.htm

OK? I'm not saying that the Carter Center is dead set against exit polls, but it looks a bit different to me than it did to you. I didn't see anywhere where they actually said that exit polls were a good idea.

As for Ukraine in 2004, there were many, many indicators of fraud. Here is the 15-page international observers' report, which does not mention the exit polls: http://www.osce.org/documents/odihr/2004/11/3811_en.pdf

As I pointed out somewhere else, there were two exit polls in the 2004 Ukraine run-off, and they differed from each other by more than the U.S. exit polls differed from the official tally. So, no, I cannot agree that "Exit polling is remarkably reliable and accurate." Transparency is paramount.

I bet we can find some other points to agree on -- maybe in a different thread.

[OnTheOtherHand]

285. (Carter on U.S. elections in his own words)

Yes, Larry. We -- the Carter Center monitored six elections in the world in 19 -- in the year 2000: Three of them were in Latin America and the others were in Asia and Africa. And if the basic rules in those countries for holding elections were the same as those that prevailed in the United States, in particular, Florida, we would not even go into those countries to try to ascertain if the election was fair or not.

There's no central election authority to make judgments in a hurry after an election's over. There's no standardized method of voting. Every local precinct in Florida at least had its own independent way of judging whether a ballot was legitimate. So the answer to your question is we would not monitor elections in the United States if called in as an outsider and we wouldn't go into a country that had laws like ours.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0101/08/lkl.00.html
CNN transcript, Larry King Live, January 8, 2001

See also http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52800-2004Sep26.html, which focuses more squarely on Florida. (I'm just putting these links out there so I won't have to look for them again.)

[geardaddy]

83. Look at this quote

According to Steven F. Freeman, a visiting scholar at the University of Pennsylvania who specializes in research methodology, the odds against all three of those shifts occurring in concert are one in 660,000....

Puzzled by the discrepancies, Freeman laboriously examined the raw polling data released by Edison/Mitofsky in January 2005. 'I'm not even political -- I despise the Democrats,' he says.

What kind of oxymoronic statement is that? Not political?...riiiiight.

[IndyOp]

99. Welcome to DU, geardaddy! As for Freeman --

he and Mark Crispin Miller gain some credibility by not being die-hard Dems who seem to be just out to prove "we won" -- they both have long records of political independence and that makes them good people to carry this news. Also, I think that political independents (people watching from the sidelines) were the ones who would be best able to admit the truth of the stolen elections -- the GOP obviously isn't going to and the Dems are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

If they admit it was stolen, then they look weak for being so stupid as to allow it to be stolen, but not winning by a 'big enough' margin to overcome the stolen votes, and they worry that if they admit election fraud is ongoing people won't go vote when we *most* need them to go do so. If 90% of people voted then the entire nation would be quickly convinced that theft had/was occurring.

So --> :kick: for Kennedy & Crispin Miller & Steve Freeman.

:hi:

[geardaddy]

104. Thanks IndyOp

I see what you mean. I just meant the quote seemed ridiculous on its face.

[renate]

134. good catch, geardaddy!

And welcome to DU! Glad you're here!
:hi:

[mod mom]

86. Up on Cincinnati Enquirer Political Blog:

RFK Jr. recounts 2004 election





Like it or not, theories about whether Ohio votes were "stolen,'' were rekindled again today by an article in the latest Rolling Stone magazine.

Written by Robert F. Kennedy Jr., it's titled, "Was the 2004 Election Stolen?"

Their claim: "Republicans prevented more than 350,000 voters in Ohio from casting ballots or having their votes counted -- enough to have put John Kerry in the White House."

Read it yourself, here:
http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/gov/

[sinkingfeeling]

88. Excellent article, complete with all references. Kudos to Rolling Stone!

Just emailed it to my RW brother-in-law.

[DFW]

89. Thank you Bobby!

This is a subject that should not be allowed to die.

The Republicans try to pooh-pooh this issue saying it is
just a bunch of wild unsubatantiated conspiracy theories.
How very convenient. That is the best way to cover it up
and ignore it. We have a responsibility as American citizens
and to our children not to ignore this but to remember it
always and try to address it and fix it. Blackwell is the
lowest of scum and deserves to spend a day in jail for every
Ohio Democratic vote he supressed in 2004. That should put
him away for the rest of this lifetime and the next.

[mdmc]

90. RFK jr. 2008!

fight on! www.riverkeeper.org

[SPKrazy]

147. Yeah Baby! n/t

[DearAbby]

91. I am speechless... I am so proud of RFK

He has stepped up, taking the mantal upon his shoulders. The mantal of truth. And he is heralding it out to the country.
Listen America! A true Patriot speaks.

I was devistated election night 04. I had gone shopping that day, the thoughts in my mind...A NEW DAY DAWNING!! It was going to be alright. Kerry had an overwhelming lead.

That night we were invited, to watch the returns and celebrate, at the home of one of our friends. The night wore on, and you could feel it in the room. ALL OF US, sat there in silence, food uneaten on the table. The champagne unopened cooling in the frige.

We looked at each other, and volumes were spoken in each look. No one wanted to say it, at first. Each one of us knew. Then someone said softly. "This is bullshit.. They are feeding us bullshit."

The bobbleheads were trying to explain what happened to the overwhelming lead that Kerry had most the day. Trying to explain why states started flipping.

Going home that night, I thought of the sweet thoughts I had during the day, and knew there would be dark days and months ahead. I cried. Deep racking saddness, Tears were torn from me.

My husband held me. I could not put into words. I could not say it...America is gone.

It was then I came to DU. I was not going to take this laying down. I was not going to let them get away with this horrible crime. I planned to fight for my country.

I am so proud of RFK, another Kennedy has stepped up to the plate, and stated the truth. Listen America.

Give me Liberty - NOT DIEBOLD!

[InaneAnanity]

94. Hopefully, this will start the debate

With most of the country hating Bush, maybe now they'll be more likely to think logically and reject the right wing noise machine than before.

[DUBYASCREWEDUS]

96. What an article!

I live in Cleveland, Ohio and you have no idea how frustrated I was on the night of November 2, 2004. I watched and listened all day as Kerry had the lead in Ohio and all of the polls were predicting his win. What all of you who don't know is that Blackwell is an S.O.B. and he will stop at nothing to win the governorship of this state although all polls currently have him trailing Strickland. Mark my words - that bastard will steal the governorship of Ohio unless someone stops him. I have written to the Democratic Party and pleaded with them to do something for years and all I get is a request for a donation. Maybe some of you are more savy as to what can be done to stop this evil bastard

[bleever]

97. DU was the only place where people stayed focused on this.

We KNEW this would eventually see the light of day. Even when no one else wanted to even consider it, not even many liberals, some of us just couldn't let it go.

Here's to the good people of DU, and especially to Truth Is All.


:patriot:

[New Earth]

159. we believed

:) :hi:

[bleever]

165. And we were right.

:)

[Raksha]

232. Yes, we believed. And we still believe,

as difficult as it is sometimes.

[reprehensor]

98. Let the good times roll.

Who's gonna come out next?

This is good news.

[Ammonium]

101. It's about damn time

I swear to god if this same shit happens in 08 I'll be in the streets! Who's bloody with me?!

[kerry-is-my-prez]

102. It has a map showing the polls vs. the results......

http://www.rollingstone.com/photos/gallery/10467024/

[WiseButAngrySara]

103. God, I love you kpete!!! Thanks so much for posting this and all

other very pertinent news here in GD!

:yourock:!!!!

:kick: & R!

[kpete]

109. Are we Wise and Angry Enough Today Sara?

You Betcha!!!

[WiseButAngrySara]

119. You can make claims to wisdom! (not me, my name is wrong!!!)

Oh well, too late to change that but at least the anger's right!

GGGGGrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!

[kpete]

122. I am probably older than you

so I can be Old&WiseButAngryKpete...

[WiseButAngrySara]

197. I bet you're not older, but I've not that mature for my age either! BTW,

I just received a thank-you e-mail from my brother, who has already read the article and had very high praise for it. I was so impressed! It is so well written. DU has had all of this info. at one time or another since the election, but it's nice to have it in one article, referenced and so well organized. I really hope that this gets major M$M coverage, finally!

Thanks again kpete! I've no excuse for wisdom, or immaturity, but anger is GOOD! (Even OmmmmSweetOmmmm has occasional bouts of it!)

:hug:

[GOTV]

105. I'm afraid it will be water off a ducks back for most people...

... Most people do not understand statistics or polling science and the obvious fact that people can refuse to answer or even lie to pollsters will allow them to discount any discrepancy.

This all needs to be packaged in a much more consise way for the average Rolling Stone reader who at this point is thinking of anything BUT politics and voting.

How can it be packaged? I don't know how to distill it down so that people will not dismiss it out of hand. But if a simpler case cannot be made, I think this will not get us anywhere.

[Minstrel Boy]

108. Truth, but no justice.

What's America going to do about it?

Knowing isn't enough. Raising awareness isn't enough. It's time that a lot of fists be raised.

[durrrty libby]

110. I could only get through half of this article

without feeling violently nauseous all over again.

God…I love the Kennedys. Always have and always will.

[jarnocan]

168. true WHAT can we do NOW ! I did send the link...

to alot of media sources with a brief quote and comment -imploring them to consider the facts. I want to send it to congress folks as well. Might be cool if we send it to our reps- that actual magazine even??? http://www.michaelmoore.com/ I am happy to see Michael Moore has put it on his front page.

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen

Nothing less is at stake here than the entire idea of a government by the people.
Our democracy should count. It didn't. Please read and consider the truth.

"After carefully examining the evidence, I've become convinced that the president's party mounted a massive, coordinated campaign to subvert the will of the people in 2004."

[milkyway]

113. "...a massive, coordinated campaign to subvert the will of the people..."

"After carefully examining the evidence, I've become convinced that the president's party mounted a massive, coordinated campaign to subvert the will of the people in 2004."

This is a beautifully written sentence--the adjectives "massive" and "coordinated" pull no punches, and using the phrase, "subvert the will of the people" is so much more powerful than "stole the election." What this does is emphasize not what bush has gained, but what the people have lost. The entire article is exceptionally well-written. RFK, Jr. and his editors do what the best of our writers are able to do: take a dense amount of material and make it coherent to the casual reader. The article flows as if it's writing itself.

Robert Kennedy, Jr. has also given us one of the great books of our time, "Crimes Against Nature." Every page exposes Bush agenda as the anti-human campaign that it is.

[bj2110]

115. Spread this far and wide. Without the right to vote, all is lost.

[Ladyhawk]

117. Spreading...n/t

[JackDragna]

118. I'm satisfied.

The election in 2004 was stolen. Period. The president of the United States is not legitimate. I have absolutely no faith in the political process to product candidates supported by the majority of voters.

[RedSpartan]

120. K&R

:kick:

[McCamy Taylor]

121. This took less than 2 years. Good work DU and everybody!

[RagAss]

124. The next morning after the election...

I turned to my wife and said "They will stop at nothing. Our lives will end in the death camps".

[nxylas]

125. He forgot another one

In its official postmortem report issued two months after the election, Edison/Mitofsky was unable to identify any flaw in its methodology -- so the pollsters, in essence, invented one for the electorate. According to Mitofsky, Bush partisans were simply disinclined to talk to exit pollsters on November 2nd(34) -- displaying a heretofore unknown and undocumented aversion that skewed the polls in Kerry's favor by a margin of 6.5 percent nationwide.(35)

I have seen another, even more implausible explanation posted on the political usenet groups by those who value truthiness above truth. According to the wingnuts, the exit polls were commissioned by the Democrats and merely reflected the desires of those who paid the piper. If anyone else is saying "huh?" at this point, then don't blame me, I'm just reporting what I read.

[ellisonz]

240. Welcome to DU

" those who value truthiness above truth."

See Stephen Colbert.

:think:

[mod mom]

126. Huff Po's commentary getting freeped. Anyone interested in giving a

freeper a well deserved whooping:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2006/06/01/robert-f-kennedy-jr-th_n_22019.html

[New Earth]

142. ugh

:puke:

[mod mom]

148. I posted a link to your film in my comment on Huff Po!

[New Earth]

157. ooo

thank you! now i can look forward to freeper emails. dont' worry though, i enjoy them :P

[mod mom]

288. no, I linked to Velvet Revolution site, so no freeper mail!

[AzDar]

128. Takes me back to Election Night '04..Kerry had a substantial lead

in the Exit Polls,and I happily decided to retire for the evening; sure I'd awake to President Kerry in the morning.
Just as I was fixin' to turn off the teevee, the talking heads on whichever news channel I was parked on, said 'we're going to do something unprecedented, here, and go to the White House where Pres. Bush is awaiting the returns with his family'. They cut to the White House, and it was SO STRANGE...Bush, looking tense, mumbled a few words of 'encouragement' to his supporters, and my blood ran cold. I KNEW something was going on then. I became almost-hysterical, and my family (literally) put me to bed.
I awoke the next morning to a surreal world, and did not get out of bed for 5 days.
I don't know if that little bit of White House weirdness was a distraction, or a signal, or WHAT, but that's when I KNEW something awful was going on, and our National Nightmare continues...

[trekbiker]

130. excellent... kick

[bklyncowgirl]

132. Thank you RFK your Dad's smiling somewhere

Now will the mainstream media cover this??

[deminks]

133. We know what KKKarl was doing election night. (photo)

[Blutodog]

137. Nov. 2006

The GOP is going to do the same thing this fall as it's done since 2000 it's going to steal enough Congressional elections to retain it's hold on POWER. It will do whatever it takes to accomplish this and the MSM will help it. It doesn't make any difference how many new voters the DEMS. register or for that matter how many vote. The GOP will use every trick at it's command to make sure it wins. Stealing is nothing to these thugs they will kill if necessary.

[LongTomH]

138. Google on: "Robert F Kennedy"

Go to Google News and search on Robert F. Kennedy. So far, I've seen 6 hits referncing his critique of the election - 3 of those were blogs. It might be instructive to keep running that search during the night and tomorrow.

Look for evidence of another lockdown or that some media outlets - the more independent - are picking this up.

[degreesofgray]

139. It was a coup d'etat

as was 2000.

[ngant17]

146. the machinery of a coup was complex

I agree that it was technically a coup, but the machines they used were not guns spewing out hot lead again their opponents, it was not so blatant as it might have been done in Latin American dictatorships, the machinery of the coup was less deadly but still effective. Computer rigging, perversions of election laws, dirty tricks, a lot of small gears meshing together to accomplish the same goal - stealing an election to institute a proto-fascist dictatorship.

Can it happen again in the next election? What can be done to prevent the scenario again? Paper ballots seems to be the most logical solution. Low-tech and verifiable. Get the black boxes and secrecy out of public voting!

[brainshrub]

140. This article means nothing.

Have no doubt folks, this article means nothing.

Nothing.

Kerry's pathetic surrender, and then his denial of what he told Marc Crispen Miller has ensured that this debate is over.

We need a revolution with civil disobedience, and all I hear are crickets chirping and the sound of SUVs driving to Wal-Mart.

[Name removed]

171. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lildreamer316]

238. ..and therein lies the dilemma in Gore's head.

He knows very well what the heat in that kitchen is like. He can see exactly what he would be up against if he decides to walk back in with an apron on. It's scary; and I can't blame him for wanting to not go....but I think that is what this time off has been; time to spend with the family and value his life.
Now he is possibly being called to the sacrifice. Like the Oak King of old; he may have to lay down his "life" for his people....will he use his free will to choose that path? Even to watch him ponder it is an honor; because he is the one worthy of it.
Scary; exciting; momentous stuff.

[Grateful for Hope]

141. This article

was the most comprehensive article I have read on the fraud in 2004. He did his homework, and, not only does it show, but, I suspect that he is ready, willing, and able to address any questions about his uncle's election in 1960. I imagine him saying that, he does not know what happened there, but, it does not matter because election fraud is something we need to stop.

Go Bobby!

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

143. Proves 2 things - election fraud and collusion of the media

I read the whole article and have to say I was already familiar with 99% of what RFKjr wrote, primarily because of DU and all the great consolidation of known facts that went on right in these forums. If we had these scraps, so did the larger media - they CHOSE to ignore this - whether out of corruption or some other reason, only history will judge.

This article is FANTASTIC, but it is really a compilation of already noted facts and reports. Why did it take RFKjr and NOT the New York Times or the Washington Post or name any other major paper to blow this open. These facts have long been out there. Why this conspiracy of silence? Hello? Someone? Why do we have to get our real news from the Daily Show and Rolling Stone?

These mainstream papers deserve to lose all their readership right this very second! They did NOT inform you of what was the news of the day - how your election was stolen in plain sight right from under you.

I hear the Guardian is starting a US edition. I will be happy to subscribe.

[Raster]

149. Why wasn't it the Post or the Times? Collusion and collaboration.

The Fourth Estate is now an accessory to the crimes. Bring back the Fairness Doctrine. Limit the amount of media any party may own or control.

Keep in mind the Nixon White House featured some of the very same criminals that make up bushco*. Their only regrets with Nixon are (1) he got caught; and (2) they weren't able to control the media to mitigate the damage. Looks like they learned this time around. Collusion and collaboration.

[SPKrazy]

145. Kennedy For Prez!

Seriously

give him extra protection

but Kennedy for Prez!!!!!

[Pluvious]

150. This is why I remain a registered Republican

I don't want my vote taken away because I'm a listed Dem.

Purdy frelling SAD ain't it ?

___________
"They hate us for our freedoms"
-Moron in Cheif

[Swamp Rat]

151. kick and recommended!!! n/t

[SmokingJacket]

153. Great article; why am I so depressed by it???

Well, most of us on DU knew most of this (though I was shocked to learn that about Americans abroad having their registration site shut down by the Pentagon -- that was new to me) QUITE a long time ago, and had to put up with people calling us paranoid sore losers for so long. A few days after the election my husband and I were talking about this while a guy was doing work on our house. He said, "Don't mean to eavesdrop, but are you talking about the election? They stole it!" But is there even a word in the public arena? NO! Whenever I mentioned it even to liberal friends, they winced like we were freaks.

Well, this will certainly convince some people -- people maybe who were out of touch or maybe who even voted for Bush and have since realized their mistake.

[robertpaulsen]

155. This really burns me up: 80,000 votes RFK Jr. calls OUTRIGHT FRAUD!

From the OP link:

But what is most anomalous about the irregularities in 2004 was their decidedly partisan bent: Almost without exception they hurt John Kerry and benefited George Bush. After carefully examining the evidence, I've become convinced that the president's party mounted a massive, coordinated campaign to subvert the will of the people in 2004. Across the country, Republican election officials and party stalwarts employed a wide range of illegal and unethical tactics to fix the election. A review of the available data reveals that in Ohio alone, at least 357,000 voters, the overwhelming majority of them Democratic, were prevented from casting ballots or did not have their votes counted in 2004(12) -- more than enough to shift the results of an election decided by 118,601 votes.(13) (See Ohio's Missing Votes) In what may be the single most astounding fact from the election, one in every four Ohio citizens who registered to vote in 2004 showed up at the polls only to discover that they were not listed on the rolls, thanks to GOP efforts to stem the unprecedented flood of Democrats eager to cast ballots.(14) And that doesn?t even take into account the troubling evidence of outright fraud, which indicates that upwards of 80,000 votes for Kerry were counted instead for Bush. That alone is a swing of more than 160,000 votes -- enough to have put John Kerry in the White House.(15)

[OnTheOtherHand]

178. but it isn't true (although other stuff in the article is)

In fact, two big mistakes here.

"In what may be the single most astounding fact from the election, one in every four Ohio citizens who registered to vote in 2004 showed up at the polls only to discover that they were not listed on the rolls, thanks to GOP efforts to stem the unprecedented flood of Democrats eager to cast ballots."

No, absolutely not. That would be astounding, if it were true. I don't know how the Rolling Stone fact checkers missed this. Here's what RFK's source (the DNC report) actually says: "Our investigation and analysis reveal that more than one quarter of all voters in Ohio reported some kind of problem on Election Day, including long lines, problems with registration status and polling locations, absentee ballots and provisional ballots and unlawful identification requirements at the polls." These are all big problems, but they aren't all being "not listed on the rolls."

"And that doesn?t even take into account the troubling evidence of outright fraud, which indicates that upwards of 80,000 votes for Kerry were counted instead for Bush. That alone is a swing of more than 160,000 votes -- enough to have put John Kerry in the White House."

Well, that particular evidence is very weak. It rests on the argument that a Democratic candidate for the Ohio Supreme Court could not have gotten more votes than Kerry in 12 rural counties. But in 2000, a Democratic candidate for the Ohio Supreme Court got more votes than Gore in 81 counties. So that dog won't hunt. It was an interesting argument in late 2004, but it doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

Personally, I really really wanted us to weed out the bad arguments before they ran in Rolling Stone. Oh well.

[wisteria]

192. What does Gore 2000 have to do with the 2004 election? n/t

[OnTheOtherHand]

249. it refutes the claim that downticket candidates

don't get more votes than the presidential candidates. Why should we be weirded out that Connally got more votes than Kerry in 12 counties, if Resnick got more votes than Gore in 81 counties?

I've looked deeper to see whether there might be a deeper argument here -- since the superficial one just doesn't work -- but there doesn't seem to be. Those twelve counties don't especially stand out in the election returns.

[PhilipDC]

255. Re: but it isn't true (although other stuff in the article is)

OTOH said:
"In fact, two big mistakes here.
"In what may be the single most astounding fact from the election, one in every four Ohio citizens who registered to vote in 2004 showed up at the polls only to discover that they were not listed on the rolls, thanks to GOP efforts to stem the unprecedented flood of Democrats eager to cast ballots."
No, absolutely not. That would be astounding, if it were true. I don't know how the Rolling Stone fact checkers missed this. Here's what RFK's source (the DNC report) actually says: "Our investigation and analysis reveal that more than one quarter of all voters in Ohio reported some kind of problem on Election Day, including long lines, problems with registration status and polling locations, absentee ballots and provisional ballots and unlawful identification requirements at the polls." These are all big problems, but they aren't all being "not listed on the rolls."


OTOH, you're misreading the numbers...the article quote talks about 1 in 4 NEW voters while your report quote talks about 1 in 4 of ALL voters.
Here's a more likely quote from the report that they based the 1 in 4 new voters on:

New registrants were much more likely to be required to cast ballots
provisionally: 26.5 percent of voters who first registered to vote in
2004 were required to cast a provisional ballot versus 2.5 percent of
voters who registered before 2004.

[OnTheOtherHand]

296. whoops, if I had seen yours first...

It's not that I misread the numbers. The footnote specifically cites page 5 of the DNC report. So I went to page 5, found a similar factoid with completely different content, and assumed that he had misread it.

I still think that's possible, because this is sort of a strange way of reporting the provisional ballot result. But there's a good chance that he wrote the statement with the intention of finding the page number later, and then he or someone else just got the reference wrong. If the citations are web-only, maybe they can just fix it online.

The provisional ballot statistic doesn't exactly support RFK's claim, because (1) the sample is limited to Cuyahoga County, and (2) not all new registrants who cast provisional ballots would be people who were "not listed on the rolls." A bunch would be people who hadn't yet submitted ID (or went to the wrong polling place). I'm also troubled because this percentage doesn't seem to jibe at all with the proportion of new registrants statewide who reported ballot problems (p. 23) -- just about 2% -- but it's possible that new registrants who were handed a provisional ballot didn't think of that as a "registration challenge" (discussion of awareness on p. 33). Basically, I doubt that the claim is true, but it might be close.

The one more thing I would really like to know, although it doesn't affect the truth value of the claim, is what percentage of new registrants' ballots were counted. Overall, about 2/3 of Cuya provisional ballots were counted (the survey estimates seem to imply that about 3/5 of the uncounted provisionals were Kerry votes*). If one quarter of new registrants showed up, didn't find their names on the rolls, cast provisional ballots, and most of them had them counted (with a distinct but modest skew against Kerry), then if this is the "single most astounding fact" from the election... umm, whatever. (It is worth keeping in mind that -- at least according to the figures I have -- there were finally about 35,000 uncounted provisional ballots in Ohio, new registrants and otherwise. If those split about 60:40 for Kerry, then they net him about 7,000 votes.)

I hope to learn more from the folks who ran the surveys.

* Table 2 on p. 31: Kerry voters and Bush voters cast provisional ballots at almost identical rates. Table 5 on p. 32: 69% of Kerry voter provisionals and 79% of Bush voter provisionals are counted. So, overall, uncounted Kerry provisionals appear to outnumber uncounted Bush provisionals about 3-to-2, based on this Cuya sample.

[smartvoter]

260. "NEW" versus "ALL" -- the article is right. nt

[OnTheOtherHand]

270. no, I don't think so

A fair distinction, but I can't find support for either version in the DNC report that is offered as the source. Rather the opposite.

Quoting p. 23 of the DNC report:

"Two (2) percent of voters experienced ballot problems in Ohio. These voters either had trouble receiving their absentee ballots or had their registration status challenged at the polls.... Younger voters and newly registered voters experienced the same proportion of ballot problems as older and previously registered voters."

I can't get from there to "one in every four Ohio citizens who registered to vote in 2004 showed up at the polls only to discover that they were not listed on the rolls." Can you?

(EDIT TO ADD) Here is something that is closer, on p. 30 of the DNC report: based on a survey of 400 provisional-ballot voters in Cuyahoga County, Walter Mebane estimates that 26.5% of new registrants in Cuya cast provisional ballots (with a large degree of uncertainty about the estimate). I don't see any immediate way of telling how many of these were people who hadn't submitted ID when they registered and didn't do so when they voted.

[mod mom]

289. 80,000 for Kerry to 160,000 for *=vote flipping

"And that doesn?t even take into account the troubling evidence of outright fraud, which indicates that upwards of 80,000 votes for Kerry were counted instead for Bush. That alone is a swing of more than 160,000 votes -- enough to have put John Kerry in the White House."

[OnTheOtherHand]

297. right, but the "troubling evidence of outright fraud" is

"See 'VIII. Rural Counties.'" (Note 15)

Which basically boils down to the argument that it is obviously impossible that Connally got more votes than Kerry anywhere, plus some bogus arithmetic. (See around note 183.) There is absolutely no reason to assume that Kerry would have had the same percentage margin over Connally in all counties, or the same in these 12 counties as in the other 78. Freeman apparently looked at exactly zero other races before forming his opinion.

Heck, there may have been vote-flipping somewhere, I'm not in a position to know. But I can tell you that this argument won't convince political scientists, it just won't. And it shouldn't. If someone has a better argument, please let us know.

[New Earth]

158. very very very very good

i am really satisfied with this article. he covered all the important details that we all followed as it happened. he really summed it up and reported the facts. he hit everything, all the way up to Keith Olbermann being the only one in the MSM to talk about it - to the Warren County "lockdown", all the things Blackwell did to skew the vote, stop the recounts, etc....

anyone who tries to blow this article off obviously didn't read it or are just totally in denial.

[smartvoter]

262. They will be instructed not to read it. They must obey. nt

[Onlooker]

160. So, what the hell do we do?

There's no reason to think that history won't keep repeating itself. The Republicans have installed a Tamany Hall at the national level, and it will just keep getting stronger. This is really, really dangerous, and if the next elections aren't fair, we won't need a Hillary or Kerry, we'll need someone who is brave enough to lead the fight to restore democracy.

[peanutbrittle]

161. Blackwell needs to go to prison for a long long time n/t

[wisteria]

193. He also needs to be defeated in his run for Gov. n/t

[ClintonTyree]

162. So there you have it...........

bush was selected by the Supreme Whores in 2000 after LOSING the election to Al Gore and then was handed a "victory" in 2004 by means of election theft. The man has NEVER ONCE been elected President by the people of this country yet we're all going to be paying the price for this dimwit's incompetence for decades, perhaps centuries to come. :wtf:

Yeah, I'm pissed as hell and if it's war the god damned Republicans want, it's fucking war they'll get! :grr: They've pushed this rich man's son on us whether we wanted him or not (we DIDN'T) and he's fallen way short of the meager expectations anyone had of him.
Indisputably the worst President EVER and we can't get rid of this Albatross hanging around our necks. Our country is doomed until this mentally deficient, spoiled brat is removed from office.

I thought I'd gotten over this somewhat, that we were all just going to have to live with it and wait it out. I seriously doubt our country can survive that long with the idiot's attack on our civil liberties and disastrous economic and foreign policy. Our country is on the verge of collapse. Bush must be removed from office immediately, our country cannot withstand these evil men's onslaught any longer. :mad:

[Quixote1818]

164. Did anyone on Air America or Ed Schultz talk about this today????

I never heard anyone bring it up? Did I miss and talk on this? If not why was it not talked about?

[Amaryllis]

179. Thom Hartmann talks about it all the time. Shultz and Franken aren't

not on board with it. Mike Malloy talks about it a lot. Randi is all over it. Some are still clueless, as the DNC seems to be. Or at least they aren't talking.

[The Sushi Bandit]

167. Thank you john boy!

[Name removed]

174. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

189. That's horsepoo - if Kerry WAS part of it then WHY did he BEAT BUSH so

badly in the debates and FORCE them to pull out all the stops and rig the machines?

A "brother" would have taken a dive or lose at least two debates. A "brother" wouldn't have exposed their worst crimes like IranContra, BCCI, illegal wars in Central America, and CIA drugrunning.

A brother would have given Bush a CLEAR victory so he could have the MANDATE he wanted so desperately.

A brother would have kept his mouth shut about Tora Bora.

I think only kneejerk reactionaries who never paid attention or studied actual government records would believe that brotherhood crap.

Clinton wasn't a brother boner and HE CLOSED THE BOOKS on BushInc's crimes when he took office - absolutely AGAINST Kerry who wanted the books opened.

[txb]

194. good points!! why WOULD kerry beat-up * in the debates,

keep his ear to the flame on the IRAQ/WMD lies, and all the other things he did in running a campaign pretty well UNTIL THE LAST 48 HOURS.....when he basically just tossed in the TOWEL.

he didn't want to be seen as a "sore loser"?

no, a "sore loser" signs 750 signing statements showing off that HIS administration doesn't have to follow the letter of the law.....after all, Kerry didn't demand they follow the law before he conceded, right?

someone who FIGHTS for what is rightfully his, is not a sore loser.

someone who ABANDONS their country when they are, truly, the ONLY person who had any chance of stopping the CRIME OF THE CENTURY is not a "sore loser".....

a person like that is just a "loser" i guess.

TWO YEARS LATER---- still nothing from this guy.

does Kerry really think he can limp into another Presidential campaign without admitting that he was ROBBED and, furthermore, ROBBED AMERICA of her earliest & best shot at keeping these evil folks outta power?? he's just going to pretend it never happened?? or....what, we're "still waiting"??

rolling stone has just scooped the former presidential candidate. good lord.
John Kerry....go away already.

[blm]

219. You think Kerry wasn't a part of why Kennedy took on this issue? Or that

he wasn't part of the article?

BTW - You just proved that you don't even KNOW that Kerry is still in two court cases in Ohio.

[txb]

226. 2 Court Cases in OH -- keep waiting for Mr. Kerry? Gimme a BREAK!

...why NO quote from Kerry in the article?

why no quotes from Kerry about ANYTHING?
Kerry refuses to even speak about the election that was stolen from him, and if you think that cowardice is really some kind of "secret plan", where he is going to pop out from behind a bench with some court order to prove that Bushco stole the election TWO YEARS AFTER THE CRIME SCENE went cold after KERRY SURRENDERED ---- that's really delusional.

Kerry's got two court cases in Ohio. big freakin' deal.
i've got a newsflash for you : BUSH HAS THE ELECTORAL VOTES from Ohio.
Kerry could get 185 court cases in OH, it doesn't change a thing.

Campaigning Kerry was out in the Middle East on January 6th 2005 when ONLY ONE SENATOR joined with the House Democratic Caucus as they tried to STOP THE RE-ELECTION OF * - on the basis of ELECTION FRAUD.

where was Kerry? all those Dem's 'having' his back'....trying desperately to STOP the 2nd Term of *, by any means neccesary.....

Kerry was in Middle East.....

so for the record: whenever the battle lines are drawn up for Election Fraud : Pencil John Kerry OUT OF THE PICTURE.

what a sham.

[blm]

227. Kerry WAS quoted in the article - did you even READ THE ARTICLE?

Seems to me you didn't, and your focus here is NOT on discussing the article, but on trashing Kerry with false charges. Swiftboating from the left?

[txb]

233. swftboating....nice misdirection. now calm down.....

there's nothing NEW in this article! (other than the fact it has finally dented the MSM)

there are no NEW quotes from John Kerry discussing the STOLEN ELECTION of 2004.

in fact JOHN KERRY DOESN'T THINK THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN.

find me a quote where John Kerry admits that the election was stolen, and I'll eat his windsurfing equipment.

Kerry has nothing to do with protecting the election, making every vote count, or anything else that gets too close to the big nasty subject of ELECTION FRAUD--- that is something Mr. Kerry just DOESN'T DO.

and I'd love to have you show me how that is "trashing Kerry on false charges".

where was Kerry on January 6, 2005 when the Democratic Caucus and Senator Boxer successfully stalled the electoral college in order to air their concerns about ELECTION FRAUD?
Kerry wasn't in the country. Kerry didn't even stand with the Caucus. Only ONE Senator.

One Senator. out of the entire Democratic Senate.....that is a testament to how behind the curve the Dem leadership is.

they want this issue to go away more than Bushco does.

sad but true.

[wisteria]

242. There are many logical reasons why Kerry chose to concede.

I could list them all here, but it is obvious you have your opinions and aren't open to any one else's.
I for one can understand why Senator Kerry made the decisions he did. Have you ever wondered what would of happened if he decided to do as you think he should have? Where would we be now? Would it have made him President? Would it have advanced the cause of fair elections? I can envision a scenario where the media and the Bush administration discredit the senator and have the public at large laugh at all mention of stolen elections. Just the mention of Senator Kerry pursuing his stolen election accusations without any definite illegal activities documented and attempting to drag this all out for months and years- which would never of happened because any case without documented illegal activities would surely be dismissed promptly, would make him, his followers and the Democrat party a media joke. The party would have distanced themselves from him and the cause of fair elections would be swept under the rug for years to come.
Kerry made the only real heartbreaking choice available to him at the time. I support the tough decision he had to make. I think we will have gained more going this route. People are now talking about and questioning the electronic machines and asking about making their vote count. Also, don't think for a minute Senator kerry isn't fighting for fairer elections because he is. Go check out his senate web site and Johnkerry.com.

[disndat]

266. What if

Kerry disputed the '04 election and it dragged on for months and months as you have speculated. It would be interesting to find out which way Sandra Day O'Connor's swing vote would have gone second time around. Lately, O'Connor has expressed great anxieties about the current occupants of the White House, amazingly, even going so far as to speak out publicly that she thinks we are headed toward fascism. She was greatly influenced by the infamous John Yoo who had clerked for her before becoming law clerk for Clarence Thomas. Maybe O'Connor is having a "King Lear" wake-up moment.

[disndat]

243. Kerry enigma

Kerry has become flip flopper par excellence. Where was he when the Democrats needed his leadership? Not only did he run out less than a day after the Ohio debacle, and out of the country for the crucial Election Fraud vote, he was at the Davos Economic Conference in Switzerland when his vote was needed to initiate filibuster to head off the nomination of Alito to the Supreme Court. He told,in private, Mark Crispin Miller that he thought the election '04 was stolen, then later, denied he said it when asked by reporters. Looking ahead, the NYT today had an article by Adam Nagourney which speculates that presidential hopefuls who are presently serving in Congress have a disadvantage over governors because of their records on their support of the Iraq war, now seen increasingly a mistake and increasingly unpopular. H. Clinton is trying to "nuance" her staunch pro-war stand now that she is running hard for '08. I would still prefer Kerry to H.C., if push came to shove, but thank god, Gore is now in the picture for that presidential horse race. The Democrats may not have to face the unhappy choice between the two Senators.

[blm]

248. What a crock - Kerry was the senator who INITIATED Alito filibuster when

none of the Judiciary Dems would stand with Kennedy on it. Kerry shouldn't have HAD to do it, but he did because he knew it had to be done. Kerry was in Davos for his OWN FINANCE COMMITTEE DUTIES.

Attack the Judiciary Des who wouldn't stand with Kennedy and filibuster - it was something any of them should have done immediately after the hearings.

And Nagourney is Rove's swordswallower. You won't find many on this board who listen to his poison tongue.

[disndat]

254. Nagourney is poisonous

I agree, but he included all Senators including John McCain as well. Nagourney may be promoting Republican Governors like Mitt Romney who is Conservative but is generally interesting because of his health plan for Massachusetts. I worked for Kerry with A.C.T. in Ohio on that fateful weekend, Nov '04. I put get-out-the vote door hangers in the pouring rain in Columbia Heights, Ohio. If it is between H.C. and Kerry that would be no contest for me. But if Gore were to runs, forget it, he would win the primaries by a landslide. Gore is the only one who can beat even the Rove dirty tricks, Swiftboating, and the Diebold machines which, according to reports, the election officials all over the country are rushing out to get, in time for this November elections.

[wisteria]

265. You forget Gore has been stigmatized also.

Gore the crazy Dem, Gore the sore loser. Gore, the man who claims he invented the internet. Gore the arrogant. Also, Gore's disappearance from public view for close to five years could be viewed as a depression.
And,going with your suggestion that governors win Gore was never a governor, but a senator before he became VP. I don't know why you would think Gore would win in a landslide- I don't share that point of view.

[earth mom]

272. Are you kidding?

Support for Kerry is TOTALLY GONE for most of us because he wimped out and DID NOT FIGHT. Simple as that.

I'm not seeing the love for Kerry around DU at all-not like I see it for Gore who DID stand up and fight.

People want to see someone with the COURAGE TO STAND AND FIGHT FOR THE TRUTH and WHO WILL DO THE RIGHT THING!

NOT watch someone like Kerry who DID NOTHING and who weaseled out at every turn! And people want to know why Kerry has behaved the way he has! Since Kerry's not saying and the only thing coming out of his mouth are TOTAL LIES that he doesn't think the election was stolen, then the only conclusion that people can come to is that...

KERRY IS IN ON IT and HE IS ONE OF THEM.

Living in DENIAL and putting Kerry on a pedestal ain't gonna change any of it.

[blm]

277. That's ABSURD - if Gore was serious about fraud, he had 4 years to

investigate it, And it was Gore's election fraud team who moved into the 2004 deal - they were prepared for the tricks of 2000, and knew NOTHING about the machine fraud.

Read the article - Kerry HAD NO EVIDENCE he could use the day after re the machines - and he STILL has not been given any hard evidence - that is why the debate is all about securing the machines BEFORE The next vote. EVERY expert on machine fraud will tell you the same.

And do you want to state for the record that you know for sure that Gore would have contested the election if he was perceived to have lost the popular vote by 3 million votes? Gore didn't have machine fraud as part of his case.

Deal with REALITY. There isn't a lawmaker alive who's done more damage to BushInc than Kerry has. You are welcome to try and name ONE.

[txb]

279. reality? how about John Kerry tries reality?

how can you say: "Deal with REALITY. There isn't a lawmaker alive who's done more damage to BushInc than Kerry has. You are welcome to try and name ONE"

i'll name you a few:

Senator Barbara Boxer - who had enough GUTS to stand with the Democratic Black Caucus and force a parliamentary maneuver to FORCE THE REPUBLICAN CONGRESS to examine the OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE that there was vast ELECTION FRAUD in the Election of 2004

Rep. John Conyers - who had enough GUTS to research and write the most important TEXT describing the vast Election Fraud that cost John Kerry the 2004 Election....and also stood with Sen. Boxer on that most important date in our country's history (January 6, 2005)


so while those 2 brave lawmakers were doing their BEST to "damage BushInc" by FIGHTING TO KEEP Bushco OUT OF THE WHITE HOUSE for a second term (pretty damaging work, if you can get it...duh)....

where was our hero John Kerry on that day????

Fact finding mission in IRAQ.

gearing up for another presidential run?

or just got his head in the sand at a particularly embarrassing moment in time for the GUTLESS Senator & failed Presidential candidate?? tough call...

so there are some lawmakers names who are doing a better job of fighting the Bush Regime tooth & claw than your hero John Kerry.

won't you agree that your cheer-leading for this loser is making you look a little silly?

he doesn't DESERVE your cheerleading.....but it's a free country.

you are free to stand up and fight for whomever you wish!

(or in John Kerry's case, he is free to bury his head in the sand of 'reality' or whatever you are calling it these days...)

what a country! (worth fighting for--note to JohnJohn)

[blm]

280. History will show that IranContra, BCCI, illegal wars in Central America,

CIA drugrunning and the first book exposing terror finance networks were the results of efforts by John Kerry. There is no matching that, although Waxman and Conyers are strong anti-corruption Dems alongside Kerry.

And for the record - Conyers didn't WANT Kerry as part of it because he didn't want distraction from the ISSUE of voting frauud. Kerry contesting would change the story to Kerry is a sore loser 24/7. Who would benefit from that, especially since there was no whistleblower coming forward who would admit to rigging the machines?

[txb]

281. nice point re: history.....

but, i think all of those things (CIA, BCCI, Central America, et. al.) are pretty small cookies when compared to the EUTHANASIA of our Democracy which occurred the moment that John Kerry conceded to the war criminals of the Fourth Reich.

and Conyers didn't want a distraction once it became painfully clear that KERRY didn't have the STOMACH for such a battle.

who could blame Conyers? I certainly wouldn't want to go marching into battle with John Kerry after he SURRENDERED faster to BushCo than any loser ever gave up any fight.

good riddance! much like Conyers, I think the Democratic Party should wash their hands of John Kerry as well.

We can get more done knowing that every hand on deck will continue to fight until the mission is done.

thanks for your 'service' John, now please retire.

[blm]

282. Conyers and Kerry are working together - no one could be so obtuse

that they would spin what Conyers said into a derisive remark against Kerry.

And you must not have any inkling the import of the events listed - do you realize that a 9-11 and any Iraq war would NEVER HAVE HAPPENED at all if the Clinton/Gore administration had not sided with Bushinc and kept the books CLOSED on all their crimes - the same books Kerry went to court to get opened? 9-11 and Iraq policy are completely rooted in IranContra and BCCI.

I would guess you didn't major in history or US Government. And that you never accessed the congressional record available to the public or the National Security Archives.

[txb]

286. conyers is forced to work with Kerry cause the guy won't go away...

...and they are in the same party. You really think Conyers would've ROLLED OVER for the neocons had it been HIS PRESIDENCY that they steamrolled??? I don't think so.
We certainly know that if the roles had been reversed that John Kerry wouldn't have stood with Conyers on January 6th, 2005 and demanded a halt to the electoral college....John Kerry already was scheduled for a "john kerry day" on January 6th....not a 'defend the republic' day.

you say: "I would guess you didn't major in history or US Government. And that you never accessed the congressional record available to the public or the National Security Archives." no...but I know a QUITTER when I see one. and you're not going to change my mind or the minds of millions of others by getting us to dust off some congressional records in hopes that erases the painful vision of JOHN KERRY handing over the keys to the White House like the gutless coward he was.....yeah, john kerry did plenty of righteous, liberal things in the Senate.

But when it was time for his PROFILE IN COURAGE....he FAILED US ALL.
HE FAILED US ALL.
which was even more galling considering his mantra in the campaign was some bullshit line about "every vote counted".....
as much as it sucks....the reich wing got that much right -> Kerry = Flip-Flopper.

whoda thunk? we couldn't count on Kerry to do what he said he'd do when we voted for him.
he didn't even get himself elected and he broke campaign promises.....jeez

great points. i'm not saying that Kerry is part of Bushco. he ran a pretty decent campaign and convinced alot of people about the intrinsic EVIL that Bushco IS. judging from the EXIT POLLS, he convinced MILLIONS OF PEOPLE how evil Bushco is....not that it did any good, but he was convincing.

Kerry has ABSOLUTELY NO STANDING with myself, or countless others who saw the Election Fraud of 2004 for what it was and Kerry's lame response (i.e. SURRENDER) for what it was.

Great....big John Kerry is more liberal than Bill Clinton. Congrats you've made your point.

Kerry is more liberal than Bill Clinton.

Bill Clinton became President likely because he wasn't A QUITTER.
Bubba was the 'comeback' kid.....Kerry is none of those things.
Kerry is 'brokeback' when it comes to standing & fighting for democracy....

he should have known that he was committing POLITICAL SUICIDE the moment he SURRENDERED to the neocons.

i guess John John will have to find out the hard way.....he has certainly already reached the highest office he ever will hold. he needs to get out of the way for some new blood, new...less gutless blood that is.

[blm]

287. Clinton had the benefit of running with BAD HEADLINES for Bush1 thanks to

Kerry's constant investigations which made the country DISTRUST Bush1 enough for Clinton to become a palatable alternative - Clinton then turns around and CLOSES THE BOOKS On all the BushInc crimes that Kerry worked on for years and that helped get Clinton into the WH.

Kerry was running against a Bush2 that had constant media PROTECTION and who had been built into a heroic figure by the media since 9-11.

Your protection of Clinton while he is protecting BushInc is touching. As in touching the back of my throat with the urge to vomit.

And stop coopting Conyers for your fantasy rants - he doesn't see things the way you do.


Conyers disagrees with your conclusion:


"Fighting for Every Voter"


A few more words about an issue that is of the utmost importance to me.

As political candidates, we spend considerable time and effort every election cycle fighting for votes. After the election, whether won or lost, many candidates leave the irregularities of the election behind. But we owe the voters more than that. When voters are disenfrachised, we owe it to them to seek justice and expose the truth. That is why I have been so proud of the Kerry-Edwards campaign's ongoing involvement in the investigation and litigation of what went wrong in Ohio. I wrote to the candidates recently to ask that they continue to be involved in this important endeavor.

This is not about the past. It is about figuring out what went wrong and why -- and then getting the next election right, not for the Democratic Party, but for all of the voters.

- John Conyers

http://www.conyersblog.us/archives/00000

[txb]

290. you are off your rocker officially now.

you say: "Your protection of Clinton while he is protecting BushInc is touching. As in touching the back of my throat with the urge to vomit."

i have no words of protection for big bill clinton.

read my posts. i say that john kerry isn't worthy of your cheerleading because he has shown that when it COUNTS (when the election is on the line) he WILL NOT STAND AND FIGHT for what is right.

yes, kerry did lots of good with regard to fighting bushco for many years before the election of 2004. in fact, to a degree since the debacle of 2004. he is certainly more liberal than Bill Clinton. would've made a better president even....

TOO BAD HE IS A WEAK KNEED, GUTLESS, QUITTER than ISN'T IT!!

maybe thats why me and 10 million other Democrats are so freakin' P.O. at him.....


he cudda been someone.....he cudda been a contender....

he SHOULD HAVE BEEN PRESIDENT.

thats all i'm saying.

he should have been president, but he blew it masterfully.

now i wish he'd slink away so the rest of us don't have to look at his weak, quitting, ass and be reminded of all the work we put into a campaign of getting out the vote.....when obviously that wasn't what he really wanted.

shit, send him & bill both to some far away planet for all i care....

[blm]

292. HE HAD NO EVIDENCE - get it through the cloud - machines need securing

BEFORE the vote because AFTER is too late on rigged machines.

The ONLY WAY they could have pursued it was with a whistleblower coming forward THAT DAY.

You can rant all you like and it doesn't change the fact that YOU wanted Kerry to make a case he had no evidence to make.

Now he's the ONLY Dem senator who knows enough to secure the machines BEFORE the vote and you want him to disappear.

And you DO coddle Clinton when you treat him as a better man and a winner - it's thanks to Kerry that Clinton won in the first place, and it's thanks to Clinton that BushInc was allowed to grow stronger than ever with most of their crimes covered up by Clinton.

[txb]

278. Excellent Points! Who does John Kerry think we are?!

I couldn't agree more! John Kerry either has NO RESPECT for our intelligence re:Election Fraud, *or* he is just a bald faced LIAR, *or*, as you said, he is "in on it" and "one of them"!!

It *IS* a simple as John Kerry wimped out and ABANDONED the entire grass-roots, GOTV, wing of the Democratic Party. He may have thought that those actions would be washed away via the hands of time---but if he did, he is an IDIOT --- because with each passing day his abdication of responsibility for his own campaign looks more and more like the gutless display that it actually was.

Contrast Kerry's persona (quitter, wimp, straw man) with that of another robbed Democratic Presidential Nominee who actually FOUGHT for what was rightfully his, and you will see that the world as a whole, and particularly the grass-roots, GOTV, muscle of the democratic party holds President Al Gore in the MUCH HIGHER REGARD that he has WORKED TO EARN & DESERVES!

All John Kerry deserves is a lesson on how NOT TO BE A PUSHOVER for the neocon interests.
he certainly doesn't deserve a place at the table deciding who will lead the Democratic Party out of this mess that he helped maroon it in.....PLEASE!

again : John Kerry is either a. lying b. not respecting the grass roots, gotv movement or c. "in on it"

how the hell could anyone expect Democratic activists (who have had our asses handed to us in the last 2 elections, i shouldn't need to add) to rally around and support the most obvious, GUTLESS Presidential nominee that the Party has EVER had?!?

John Kerry - get lost & hang your head....you exist on the margin from now on....

(note: gotv = get out the vote)

[wisteria]

263. I strongly disagree with most of what you say.

Flip flopper? try being receptive to thoughtful and necessary change.

Alito Filibuster- He lead the filibuster. Many officials were at Davos. it was a scheduled and important conference. The filibuster had been discussed by Senator kerry with the other Dems prior to Davos. The call was just initiated there. There was no time to spare.

Governors are better candidates- yeah, that is the old wisdom, but we will need more then budget management skills to clean up the mess in 2008. Who better than a person who is closer to it all and has more diversified knowledge.

Senator kerry has already denounced his vote. And...it was never a vote for war.

In regards to the stolen election and Crispin, I will take Kerry's word on this rather than a man trying to promote a book. Besides that, unproven allegations and underhanded but not illegal activities in regards to voting, are not enough to fight the election results. Oh, and Kerry has been actively pursuing voting rights issues, just recently in New Orleans trying to get satellite voting centers set up for displaced NO residence.

As far as Gore, well, I remember the conservative 2000 Democrat. Gore has been outspoken against Bush, but much of that could be attributed to his close race with him and the terrible loss. Mr Gore also has nothing to lose by speaking up. In other words, Gore is just alright IMO. I wouldn't go out of my way to promote or vote for him.

[wisteria]

195. , Huh? Your post is just plain nonsense. Kerry is still just about the

best advocate we have in the Senate. No way,he ever would have allowed Bush to win.

[lildreamer316]

239. Welcome to DU;

although I see you've been registered since 2004. Come back and join the party!!
Seriously; glad you're back around.

[txb]

252. thanks! 8-)

i am more of a lurker (obviously....heh)

i will speak my mind more frequently, not much gets me going more than unwarranted hero-worship of his Kerry-ness...thats for sure.

;-)

thanks for the welcome.....

NO DEM SENATORS FOR PRESIDENT IN 2008!

[daveskilt]

300. yeah i saw the 23 posts and thought

troll? then i read more of what you have to say and thought well informed and well reasoned thoughts (not that I agree with them all) and 2004? did you double your post total in a day or what? you should post more often.

[peanutbrittle]

175. "Mighty Texas Strike Force"..does that burn your ass or what! n/t

[lonestarnot]

176. eww tanks kpete.

[democrank]

180. Maybe some country will invade us

and spread democracy. It may be our only hope.

[malaise]

181. Oh happy Day

MSM here it comes.

[peekaloo]

182. kick for RFK Jr.

:patriot:

[Connie_Corleone]

188. KICK!

[Faryn Balyncd]

191. Thank you, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.

[Redneck Socialist]

196. Wow, that could have been written by TIA

Welcome to the party RFK Jr.

[wisteria]

198. great post and great article. It is nice to have a respected man such

as RFK Jr. validate my opinion on the election. If this goes anywhere in the media, watch the repubs swift boat him.We will just have to support him and Senator Kerry also. Both will be ridiculed.

[upi402]

200. I was just trying to debate this with someone

He said "Nah, there's is no proof".
YEAH!
uh... WHY!
Banned from investigating by corrupt conservatives.
Denied meeting rooms by Republicans.

He said, "Yaeh but that stuff goes on on both sides, c'mon."

I really hope liberals 'on air' say the word Republican as they explain the crimes and betrayals of democracy.

[Botany]

201. I live in Columbus, OH

I saw it with my eyes
I heard it with my ears (phone hacks)

Sometimes i feel like I have been stuck in a very bad movie where I have seen a murder and
when I tried to tell the cops about it they tell me it never happened, move along now.

RFK footnotes everything .... bottom line Kerry won.

And for the 3 DUers who have not seen this:


http://www.thousandreasons.org/get_article.php?article_id=13

What I saw and heard in 04 in Ohio

[Pachamama]

221. I was in Akron-Canton area that day...I saw it too...

I'm living in that same bad movie with you....

I'm here in CA but went on my own nickel to Ohio to work as a voter protection worker. I can tell you that based on what I saw that day, there is no question this election was stolen. I've been disgusted for almost two years now that whenever anyone has tried to bring up this topic that it is shut down or one gets called a sore loser or conspiracy theorist. This is so serious and most Americans just don't get it. If we have lost the integrity of our elections, then we have lost our democracy.

We are now living in a Nation taken over by the NeoCons and two elected Presidents, President Gore and President Kerry, who were prevented from sitting in Washington at the will of the People. Two elections...and here we have another one this fall....What will the American people do this time?

:eyes:

[mod mom]

291. Me too! On the East side of Columbus. My precinct includes our convict

governor and had no problems by in near east precincts where I canvassed 5 hour waits. I canvassed around Linden Library and Drivers Park and was welcomed into homes and spoke with young people voting for the first time. Everyone was registered and everyone wanted bu$h OUT!

I was horrified by the despicable actions of the GOP, enough to move me to close my business and work toward change. I will not be happy with just a party switch but instead work for ending the corruption within the government and the right for every voter to be treated fairly and vote to be counted.

Did you hear the Kevin Dewine (yuck!) offered to put up the Reform Ohio Now re-districting plan but the Dems turned him down. We need both parties (and more) to apply fair treatment. Ohio need major election reform!

[Land Shark]

205. Loved most of it

Didn't like the references to older "vote stealing" technologies. It's the newer technologies that make vote stealing REALLY big. It's just that they don't do it in the same way as the "older" technologies (through the creation of "residual votes" of overvotes and undervotes) so they try to sell DREs this way as an "improvement." RFK, Jr. probably got this idea from Prof Tokaji who is really quite wrong in his support of DREs.

I Will have to think of the very best metaphor or analogy, but it's kind of like a drug addict switching from caffeine addiction to heroin addiction and "proving" the superiority of heroin in court by saying "it doesn't give you the jitters like caffeine does!"

FYI, this is precisely the test being used in court in a case where tokaji is lead counsel: "residual votes". Since half of residual votes are overvotes (voting more than one candidate in a race) and DREs prohibit such voting, they will always have a leg up on total residual vote analysis. But, this residual vote test conveniently ignores that DREs are simply gamed in ways that don't involve resisdual vote evidence like "older" systems that quaintly create evidence of disfranchisement.

THE touch screen vote counters proudly announce that the days of voter suppression are now over and we've reached a golden age of democracy where everyone can vote, because with touch screens and secret vote counting we don't need to suppress individual voters or classes of voters anymore, we can simply let everyone vote and steal 1/20th of a vote from each person and still reach the correct result!! Wunderbar!!

[autorank]

217. Glad the article was done, thank you RFK JR. Now lets bring on the

heat, like TIA. He knocked down every challenge and demonstrated again and again that either the laws of science were suspended on election day or the damn thing was stolen.

Nice point about caffeine and heroin ("horse"). The thing about heroin addiction that so insidious is that after the first few weeks, the addict is not longer getting high, he's just getting relief form the cravings. That pretty much sums up DREs. You can live with them and, the way HAVA is set upyou can't ever get off the horse.

Wonderful...paper ballots, no more bull shit from techoids saying we "have a better way" with computerized voting. Enough, England, Canada ... they have paper for national elections. The "fraud" complaints there surround marginal registration schemes (in Canada) and some mail in problems in England, which may be significant. But NOBODY COMPLAINS ABOUT THE COUNT...bank tellers in public doing it for the guv...not banking vendors doing it in private for the Bush.

[brettdale]

209. Has John Kerry or any other High Profile Democrat

Been talking about the Rolling Stone item on a mainstream network or cable news show?

[brettdale]

210. Should we mass email this to the media

Or not?

[Senator]

212. Yes, but do more than that (see below) n/t

[Senator]

211. OK - Party Tonight --- Tommorrow, Get to Work !!!

Print out as many copies as you can. Drop them at coffee shops, laundramats, waiting rooms of any type.

If you have an appointment somewhere, conveniently "forget" the copy you were reading and leave it behind. Leave them on trains and busses.

Put copies in envelops and mail them to anyone you can think of; politicians, friends and relatives, just at random to Repubs you know.

Yes, even give it to "non-political" people. They can be very effective messengers.

Mail them to the Euphemedia. Local, state, national -- print, radio, and TV. Let them know we're watching their silence too.

Keep a "giveable" copy with you at all times.

Forget the learned helplessness and defeatism. Stop thinking it's "just a drop in the bucket." Put your drops in.

--

[Control-Z]

245. So many of us feel helpless most of the time.

Great idea and something we can all do. Maybe you could start a new thread with a link to the printable version?

[NJCher]

251. will do it

I think we should have a separate thread over the next week as a reminder to people. Also, would be good to put out ideas of other places to put the article.




Cher

[Zorra]

213. Republicans are soooo EVIL. They are maggots from hell.

Screams with rage.

[CornField]

215. MOST IMPORTANT SENTENCE OF THE ARTICLE!!

"On November 2nd of this year, on the second anniversary of the election, state officials will be permitted under Ohio law to shred all ballots from the 2004 election."

[Pachamama]

218. OMG! This has to be stopped! This will be the destruction of much of

the evidence! :OMG:

I was by the way in Ohio on the Election Day working at the polls in the Akron-Canton area. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind based on what I saw that day that there was foul play, deliberate foul play, with the clear intention to prevent Kerry from winning and to throw the election to Bush. I was shaking that day and especially shocked after Kerry "conceded" so quickly, especially after all the pre-election talk by him to make sure every vote counted. I had even helped raise funds for Kerry's Legal Fund he had started prior to the election in anticipation of problems. After what I saw, there was no doubt that there was foul play and I told people about it. A lot of people thought I was just a conspiracy theorist or not able to accept defeat. No, it wasn't either of those things. I saw as plain as day and speaking with residents of the Akron-Canton area in 4 different polling places that day people who had been long-time local residents voting at those very same polling places being told that they either a) weren't on the registration list; b) that they were at a different polling place; c) that the lines were very, very long in the ice rain that day and it was primarily caused because inside that polling place were 1/2 the normal numbers of voting booths (and people who were there in the primaries earlier that year said that there were LESS voting booths in the Presidential Election than the primaries. Many people couldn't wait that long and left with the intentions of coming back - some never did or couldn't because of either their age, their job or transportation.

To know that the ballots will be shredded and evidence destroyed is so sickening to me I can't stand it....will the truth be shredded with this act? Will the truth come to light? Will Americans ever get it?

[dailykoff]

222. Don't worry, the cat is out of the bag.

And they probably shredded the evidence on November 3. No matter. They wheels of justice will turn.

[renate]

228. it IS utterly sickening, but...

it doesn't really matter anyway since once he took the oath of office, he's the President. No do-overs. At least, that's what I think Jonathan Turley has said.

History will be the harsh judge of not only Bush but of the 2004 election; this is just the first in what I'm sure will be a series of mainstream investigations and articles. Now that Bush's approval is around 30%, it's safe and, most importantly, :sarcasm: popular for the corporate media to criticize him.

It's frustrating that the ballots will be destroyed, but it's not as though the continued existence of the 2000 ballots gave us President Gore. Proof that Bush has never been fairly elected would be nice, but since it wouldn't get him out of the Oval Office at this point, I'll settle for the polls saying he's the worst president ever.

[dailykoff]

220. . . . and that's why they killed JFK Jr.

k/r

[LaPera]

224. Your correct...Republicans knew JFK Jr. was the democrats future golden

boy...The neocons smartly "offed" him before he could ever get started!

[Vidar]

223. Excellent! K&R.

[txb]

230. When will KERRY have something to say about this???

Certainly the rightful President-Elect will have to answer a question or two about these revelations?

or will he just ignore it? (again.)

[stepnw1f]

293. We Should Replace Bush with Kerry

You seem a bit too concern about a guy you obviously don't like.

[DFW]

229. I don't know to what extent

they are working on this, or what, if any, their plan of action is,
but Howard Dean and the DNC are VERY aware of the voter fraud problem.
I would hope they are doing some behind the scenes stuff to as not to
give Rove and Co. advance warning, but I haven't heard a peep. As I can't
imagine they are indiffrent to the problem, I have to hope that something
is being done about this.

[txb]

231. the silence is deafening!

all the blood sweat & tears that the activists put into election 2004, so many different people from different backgrounds said that this was going to be the most important election of their lifetime.
it all comes crashing down at the last minute, with loads of evidence pointing to widespread Election Fraud- the likes of which we've never seen at this level....

and almost 2 YEARS LATER, all we (the grass-roots activists) have to show for an answer is this article in Rolling Stone magazine by RFK JR.?? an article without a new quote from John Kerry??

lots of hushed assurances that Dean & Co. are 'VERY aware' but basically we are left "hoping that something is being done about this".....meanwhile we hang in the wind, our phones ring daily with the call to get out & help Democratic Candidates in the 2006 mid-term elections.....important elections....yada...yada....

Why should anyone who invested blood, sweat, & tears in the 2004 election only to be rewarded with an illegitimate pResident and not so much as a WHIMPER from the Democratic Party as they watched Bushco manhandle Kerry/Edwards and steal the Presidency....why should we do it again?

Not only have we not gone after the criminals, WE HAVEN'T EVEN ADMITTED THERE WAS A CRIME!!

and they want us to mobilize and go do our work just like before....like nothing has changed.

BUT EVERYTHING HAS CHANGED.
EVERYTHING CHANGED in 2000.

this article CHANGES NOTHING.

yeah, I believed in a place called Hope.
.....but don't think for a minute that makes me a sucker for It.

[txb]

234. Quote from Kerry in Rolling Stone Article:

"...Sen. John Kerry -- in a wide-ranging discussion of ROLLING STONE's investigation -- expressed concern about Republican tactics in 2004, but stopped short of saying the election was stolen. ''Can I draw a conclusion that they played tough games and clearly had an intent to reduce the level of our vote? Yes, absolutely. Can I tell you to a certainty that it made the difference in the election? I can't. There's no way for me to do that. If I could have done that, then obviously I would have found some legal recourse....''

---- there he is, the most wronged politician in US history, and he will only go as far as to "express concern about Republican tactics". isn't that nice of him. these quotes look particularly bad coming on the 4th page of a very convincing argument from RFK Jr. that the election WAS, in fact, STOLEN.

"if I could have done that, then obviously I would have found some legal recourse"

Legal recourse against ELECTION-STEALING thugs? What are you going to do John? Sue them?

Give me a BREAK! They just stole a democracy out from under your NOSE and SQUASHED it...
and John Kerry is standing around looking for "legal recourse".

Note to Self - When overthrowing a political & social system, convince those being OVERTHROWN that they have absolutely NO 'legal recourse'..

Is THAT how the conversation went? (November 2004)

GWB - "John Kerry? How ya doin' partner? Ready to concede that you LOST?"

Kerry - "I know that you stole the election, Bush. I simply lack the LEGAL RECOURSE to stop you from taking office."

GWB - "Legal wha? John? I'm clearing some brush....if you didn't call to CONCEDE the Presidency, than I'll have to take this call later-"

Kerry - "OF COURSE, I'm calling to---"

BUSH (Rove in background) - "YAH-HOO!! WE DID IT!! SUCKERS!!!' " --+CLICK+--

Kerry - "..once I have LEGAL RECOURSE...uh, hello?"
"hello?"
-----------

maybe i'm wrong. maybe Kerry rushes to the scene in another year or two (maybe right after bushco suspends the '08 presidential election) and shows up with the Spirit of Johnnie Cochrane ready to kick ass & take names as he & Super JC have finally located the LEGAL RECOURSE they need to challenge the theft of the 2004 election.....

I can hear the conservatives already bemoaning Kerry's flip/flopping between "Conceding" and "Having Legal Recourse"....i mean, don't these Libs know that they CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS??

Kerry - can't have it both ways. Can't wage a campaign where your mantra is "every vote will be counted" and then simply GIVE UP without a fight and expect to be taken seriously on the national stage again.

what a waste. what a scam.

[blm]

250. Constant attacks on Kerry who wants all electronic voting machines banned

state by state, and NO OUTRAGE FROM YOU for the DNC party structure that FAILED to secure the machines BEFORE 2004. After is TOO LATE with rigged machines.

You think that Kerry should have been taken over the responsibility of securing voting machines while he was campaigning and debating? Or should he have trusted the Dem party infrastructure built by Clinton's guy Terry MacAuliffe, in every state including the Dems on the election boards?

And, for the record, Conyers disagrees with your conclusion:


"Fighting for Every Voter"


A few more words about an issue that is of the utmost importance to me.

As political candidates, we spend considerable time and effort every election cycle fighting for votes. After the election, whether won or lost, many candidates leave the irregularities of the election behind. But we owe the voters more than that. When voters are disenfrachised, we owe it to them to seek justice and expose the truth. That is why I have been so proud of the Kerry-Edwards campaign's ongoing involvement in the investigation and litigation of what went wrong in Ohio. I wrote to the candidates recently to ask that they continue to be involved in this important endeavor.

This is not about the past. It is about figuring out what went wrong and why -- and then getting the next election right, not for the Democratic Party, but for all of the voters.

- John Conyers

http://www.conyersblog.us/archives/00000

[stepnw1f]

294. Pretty Obvious Isn't It blm?

They come out everytime Kerry's name is mentioned. President Kerry, that is....

[New Earth]

264. no

they are very aware of the election fraud problem.

:spank: :blush:

[cassiepriam]

235. I live in one of the Ohio counties discussed. Voting that day was a joke.

My polling place was a circus of incompetence. Deliberate I thought.

[Blue_Tires]

236. ttt n/t

[WeHoldTheseTruths]

237. kick! for TIA! n/t

[In Truth We Trust]

241. Paper ballots and Hand counts NOW!!! Democracy NOW!!! God speed RFK & TIA!

[NoSheep]

244. Oh happy day. n/t

[halobeam]

256. Why doesn' t everyone register as a repub, then vote dem?

They wouldn't know who to mess with, right?

[NoSheep]

261. Damn! Thats an idea. My SO registered as an independent for that very

reason.

[halobeam]

271. Honest question,

why do we have to register as a specific party anyway? If no one knew what party we were affiliated with, then they'd REALLY have a hard time deciphering whom to purge...yea?

[earth mom]

258. This is the issue that brought me to DU. RFK Jr. is My Hero!

:loveya: I am so happy to see RFK Jr. kickin some a$$!

Between the huge statement he made last summer against the Pharma Giants and their MAJOR part in the Autism Epidemic and his continuing fight on behalf of the environment...RFK Jr.:

:yourock: JFK Jr. for President!!!

Which leads me to...where is John Kerry in all this???!!! Why has he done so very little to fight for his presidency? What a wimp and a sellout!!! :(

[ChiciB1]

269. I've Believed This All Along... Having Watched Results Here In Florida

county by county, I have NEVER had any doubt that the election was rigged ALL OVER THE COUNTRY!!

But the bigger question is... what the hell does it matter?? What is being done to FIX IT??

Nothing that I can see! In my county, we still don't have paper ballots. I think we should got back to the OLD WAY of voting. NO MORE "wired" machines to tamper with!

But, I don't have much hope... we've been screwed and unscrewed ten ways to Sunday! Not enough people even give a S--T!

Oh My... is American Idol on??? Gotta run snookums!!

[distantearlywarning]

273. This article confirms my own beliefs and evidence about 2004

It is simply outstanding. I am so happy that someone finally had the courage to write and print this story, even if it did come so late.

I am sending this to everyone I know and also posting it on my LiveJournal. I want everybody in America to read this.

[bloom]

274. This is so excellent.

Hope the word gets around.

[LaPera]

275. "The biggest most important story in the history of the United States"

As Thom Hartmann stated and I've known for years!!!

If we don't have our vote we have NOTHING!

When you can't get a fair counting how can you ever vote republican candidates out if the republicans want to steal votes and keep the majority...

The republicans are quite happy keeping Dem's with some seats, to make it seem like it not a one party republican system...but they will NEVER allow fair voting because they will steal precincts where necessary, to ALWAYS keep the right-wing fascist majority and set policy and agenda...

So without our vote we can NEVER change this.

This is the most important issue we have EVER faced as a nation.

Nothing is even close!

[stepnw1f]

295. PRESIDENT KERRY

We knew it all along.

[LaPera]

298. Dupe!

[LaPera]

299. Cheers to Rolling Stone Magazine & RFK Jr. Buy a copy & give it to someone

who still don't believe the facts, and have their heads in the sand about republican electronic voting machines and fraud, like many Dem leaders don't believe about Diebold & ES&S machines.