Shouldn't We Be Prepared for Another Stolen Election

[stepnw1f]

and if we do, what will it be. It must be transparent but effective. I don't know about you all but I sure as hell don't want to complain afterwards.

The Ukraine seemed to have a pretty effective way to counter their election theft... why the hell can't we?!

[yella_dawg]

1. I figure 2004 sealed the coup.

But given the dissatisfaction with both R's and incumbents in general, 2006 might be one last chance to turn back the fascists. The Ukraine process is low-tech and easily organized. But without some kind of oversight (with teeth), I predict 2006 will be like every other 21st century US election. Fixed.

[stellanoir]

2. Mark Crispin Miller feels it will be and there will be no

exit polls. He recommends that people organize in their local precincts and conduct their own, otherwise we'll never know for sure.

[helderheid]

3. why no exit polls?

[stellanoir]

8. dunno for sure

But that's what he said on C-span last month.

I'm guessing that since they were discredited in '04 because they were indicative of a Kerry win they're now considered to be unreliable. Because there couldn't possibly be anything wrong with all those screwy voting machines and tabulators.

Just another mindf*ck from *Co.

[annabanana]

41. because they EXPOSE THE FRAUD...

(can't have that, now)

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

4. The Election Will Be Stolen Again

I have the utmost faith that they will NEVER let the congress slip from their grasp. The democrats may very well make some gains, but those in power will make certain that control of both houses stays with the repubs for at least another 2 years.

[stepnw1f]

5. sorry... I'm Not Looking for More Doom

but answers. We need to come up with a way to fight this!

[ecoalex]

6. Both Dems and Repugs seem to not care WHY?

You'd think after 2 stolen elections the Dems would be raising hell about the election frauds, but NO. The Dems seem to be inline with the repugs, who are happy with the status quo. Again the Feckless Dems appear to be deaf dumb and blind WHY? What kind of leadership do the Dems have that Dean, and the other heads of the party are willing to work with a broken insecure election system fraught with fraud.We all know why the repugs are happy with the status quo. The Dems are infiltrated with corpratists a.k.a. the DLC , who appear to have an unholy pact with the repugs.A purge is needed to remove the DLC Dems who allowed Alito, Roberts, and now a radical right wing Supreme Court that already have chilled accountability with the recent ruling that whistle blowers can be reprimanded or have retribution affected upon themselves for exposing deviation from the laws. With shrub ignoring laws what do we have? Thx DLC Dems for a lawless Supreme Court, and no voice against election fraud.

[helderheid]

7. Hey, as Feingold said, once we win back the house, we'll get rid of the

machines. :eyes:

[Scoody Boo]

9. I don't know...

but the way I see it now, the majority in both the House and Senate is ours to lose. And I really expect the bumbling Democratic Leadership of ours to blow it once again.

They will put a divisive issue to the forefront (remember gay marriage?) or think that John Murtha's face in the news will make bashing the troops okay and will literally chase undecideds into the Republican camp.

Then we will be here on DU blaming "stolen elections" again when in reality, the Democratic Leadership shanked what should have been an easy field goal.

[helderheid]

10. we won the 2000, 2002, and 2004 election. n/t

[Scoody Boo]

17. "we won the 2000, 2002, and 2004 election."

See what I mean?

I am not calling the Democrats "spineless," but I would not be able to keep a straight face if I tried to call them bastions of courage either. For the longest time, when it comes to elections, Democrats have tried to overplay their hand and bring issues that will not resonate with the undecideds or Moderate Republicans. I'll mention the Gay Marriage issue again.

I am not against Gay Marriage, but for Christs sake, do make it a campaign issue.

I do not believe that the elections were stolen. 2000 was a squeaker split decision, 2002 I was not expecting much and we completely blew 2004. I won't even get into John Kerry because my low post count won't save me if I express my thoughts on that.

But I will say this, it was not John Kerry's fault he lost. It was the Democratic Leadership's fault we lost.

I really think it is said that so much energy is going into the whole "stolen elections" thing and not into addressing the reasons why lost. If we don't face that, we will run campaigns the same way we have since 2000 and achieve the same results.

[helderheid]

22. The only thing I agree with you on this is the lack of Dem leadership but

on THIS issue - that the elections are being stolen. Why the Dems roll over on that boggles the mind.

[Scoody Boo]

28. The Democrats didn't rollover...

they accepted their defeat graciously. I do not see politicians of any stripe as anything more than charlatans that crave power or money. Because I view them this way, and believe they covet power and influence so badly, I believe that not a one of them would sit idly by and let their hold on power and influence escape their grasp.

If they truly believed they were robbed, this would mean that millions of dollars flew out of their pocket and no charlatan would stand for such a thing.

Like I said on another thread, I vote Democratic because I feel that they will leave me alone and have the least influence in my life. If a politician promised to leave me alone completely and completely ignore my existence, I would consider voting for him.

[heartofthesiskiyou]

49. What do you mean

"because my low post count won't save me if I express my thoughts on that."

Would you get thrown off DU if you went against Kerry? Does Kerry control DU or am I misinterpreting this?

[Scoody Boo]

62. Though I voted for John Kerry...

I was extremely disappointed that he was the Democratic choice at all. The only reason I held my nose and gave him my vote was because the only other choice was Bush.

He does not stand even the most remote chance of being the nominee in 2008 and that is probably the best thing going for the party right now.

[tomp]

64. the facts indicate you are incorrect.

at the very least 2000 was stolen in florida and 2004 was stolen in ohio.

you're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

[Scoody Boo]

65. Exit polls are not facts...

I always say I voted for the other guy to exit pollers as do a lot of people I know.

[robbedvoter]

18. hear, hear! GOP hasn't won one in a long, long time.

It would be nice if the Dems candidates in the know (other than Gore) would impart this little secret with us - so we won't have to read nonsense like 'ours to lose" and "only close elections can be stolen" and 'we'll fix the machines after we win"
It would be a good thing to have a plan - social movements for recounts. Like the one started in 2000 but quashed by Gore.

[Scoody Boo]

20. So...

in this coming election, every precaution is taken, every vote is counted, verified and counted again and we still lose, running the same election we did two years ago, who do we blame then?

[helderheid]

24. You tell me - how are they going to verify counting the votes? They

are made of vapor. :shrug:

[Scoody Boo]

30. I should have...

included a big "if" in my post.

[robbedvoter]

54. Blame is not the point. Dealing with a realistic situation (another steal)

is. You keep trying to hijack this thread to something else. It's not about politicking, it's about verified voting, OK?

[stepnw1f]

47. Like the One in the Ukraine (nt)

[1956]

13. One of the first steps

That needs to be taken is to quit badmouthing your own party. I'm tired of "spineless dems", and blah,blah,blah!!! Has it ever dawned on the naysayers here, that there have been plenty(if you've been paying attention) of cries about the foul play, and that they are being ignored by our mafiosos in chiefs? Dealing with these guys is next to impossible because they will stop at nothing to continue the thievery which means making threats to the families of the politicians,etc. Major leg-breakers,man-Major!

[derby378]

11. Simple solution: DON'T USE TOUCHSCREEN MACHINES

I don't care who makes them or how reliable they are. If you use a touchscreen, you're handing control of your vote over to a private corporation that has no vested interest in protecting the impartiality of the vote.

[helderheid]

12. I'm voiting on a paper absentee ballot - not sure if an e-tabulator will

be used to count it.

[ecoalex]

14. scoody boo; do you mock stolen elections, or agree they were stolen?

I would like to know if you buy the DLC line we lost with a poor attempt?

[Scoody Boo]

19. I do not buy the DLC line...

I don't believe that we won on my own. I feel that believing that they were stolen is serving to our detriment because we keep running elections the same way since 2000 and have achieved the same results.

[helderheid]

26. when the corporations served by republicans own the media and vote

machines, you do the math.

[Scoody Boo]

31. Then John Kerry...

refused to fight for a position that was justfully his. He is the one who lost and if he did not believe he was cheated enough to act on it, why should I believe it?

[helderheid]

32. The fact that none of them act on it is a mystery but it was stolen:

http://stolenelection2004.cf.huffingtonpost.com

[heartofthesiskiyou]

51. Appearantly haven't checked out what they did in Ohio

[robbedvoter]

55. Same results indeed: WE KEEP WINNING! It's good to know.

You want to make this into campaign and politics when it's about fraud and stealing.
Earth to Scoody Boo:

WE WON! WE WON! WE WON! WE WON! WE WON!
WE WUZ ROBBED!

Very detrimental to deny this truth, because no matter how we campaign, the votes won't be counted. Get it now?

[ecoalex]

23. Don't cha have to win to take over the House Senate? many seem to be

assured of a fair election.A poll of posters here would be intresting. I vote that there will be a major fiasco with many court challenges,, or the typical yawn from the people, sad.Either way the repugs are nastier so win like in Fla. Remember the riot? I saw the identified people all repugs that were sent down to Fla. to stop the count. They are more than able to marshall the troops again to out shout, punch and direct any disputed vote count. Remmeber Florida? The question is will we fight like they did, or better their tactics, or watch another stolen election?The repugs have more goons, or able to be goons.

[helderheid]

29. I think the majority of Dems don't have it in them to play dirty and

apparently that's what it takes. American politics at it's worst - or perhaps business as usual. *sigh*

[Scoody Boo]

33. To me it seems...

that Democrats have this infuriating tendency to pick the wrong battles to fight going into elections.

You know what is out there scaring me right now? That some candidates are going to follow John Murtha. I am not saying that Murtha is wrong, but to make a campaign issue out of a negative troops story is a mistake.

It is things like this that continually happen.

[stepnw1f]

36. I Really Don't Follow Your Logic

then again, this thread isn't about Murtha is it? Don't answer...

[Scoody Boo]

39. I am not stating whether Murtha...

is right or wrong, just stating that Democrats have a tendency to pick the wrong battles in election. Things like gay marriage, global warming and such.

Those are losing issues in a lot places yet Democrats try to run on them.

[helderheid]

45. So if you where the head Dem leader - what would you do? I'd like

to hear your ideas.

[Scoody Boo]

48. Okay, here goes.

For one, don't assume that jumping on the troops is going to win any votes. If Haditha is brought up, express outrage at THOSE troops and demand punishment for those troops.

On some issues like the NSA Spying hoopla. You have to realize why there has been no true outrage at this. You know why? Because most Americans feel safer that terrorist phone calls are being monitored. You can throw all the Constitutional arguments at it you want, but they will not stick. If this is going to be campaigned on, then it has to presented in a way that will make Americans feel safer without it than with it. And not safer from Bush, safer from the terrorists.

Clearly staked out positions. Take a position that can be clearly answered with, "Yes, I believe it to be so." One of the things that so infuriated me about John Kerry was that he could not sum up anything in a nutshell. Hell he could not put it in a barrel without a bottom. And in the end, his position on whatever he was talking about was as muddled as before he answered the damned qestion.

Nuance may seem a sign of intelligence to some people, but to most, it is just bullshit spoken with pretty words.

[helderheid]

58. Your first point has me confused. Since when were Dems against the troops?

[Scoody Boo]

60. Well...

the things like Senator Durbin's "Nazi" comments about our troops. Is what I am talking about.

[Catrina]

69. I was wondering about that also. I thought that lie had long ago been

debunked.

[Catrina]

68. How about all the Republican scandals? I'm suprised you left them

out! Dems only have to watch the coming indictments of, some experts say, over a dozen Republican legislators. The next in line is Bob Ney (speaking about stolen elections).

Here's a short list of Republican scandals about to blow up right now:

Hookergate: Money that was meant for the troops??? Bribes to Repub. Congressmen to get contracts, partying at the Watergater Hotel etc. etc. not to mention the prostitutes. Already there is one conviction, Duke Cunningham and he has agreed to talk. That scandal alone my cost several Repub. seats in Congress.

The Pentagon Spy Case: I won't go into it, but Dems definitely need to alert the public to the possible treason involved in that case. The coming trial won't help this administration. There's one conviction already for giving classified info to a foreign nation with the knowledge, possibly of members of this administration.

Plamegate: The lies the Repubs told regarding her status have now been cleared up, in court. No American, Dem or Repub are going to support a party that endangers the lives of those fighting for our security for political reasons, or worse, to cover up what exactly they were doing.

The multitude of crimes related to the Abramoff affairs which haven't even begun yet. So many indictments of Repubs are expected.

There's more, but by the Fall there will be plenty of empty Republican seats.


There's no need for nuance, the corruption in the Republican Party which is only beginning to be revealed, has already affected them so badly that even Republicans themselves acknowledge they may not be in control much longer.

Oh, yes and the last three elections were stolen. I don't understand how anyone cannot see that as the most important issue facing this country.

[the other one]

15. The Day After will be too late.

If we wait til after the election is stolen to say anything, then anything we say will take the appearance of sour grapes. We must lay the groundwork now. We must warn that the election will be stolen, and when it is we must act immidiatly to void the results.

[sofa king]

16. I have a simple solution.

Go out there with observation teams, everywhere, and document each instance of election theft.

Then publish the home address of each person associated with the theft... on the Free Republic.

Sprinkled amongst the frothing partisan assholes at the Freep there is a small, jingoistic, gun-owning and completely insane subset of people who will not tolerate any such affront to our Constitution, regardless of which party did it.

They'll take care of it.

[ComerPerro]

21. Every election we have, from now until elections are done away with,

will be rigged and fraudulent.

It is very hard to do anything about the kind of fraud they engage in, since they don't let anyone see any records...

[Jigarotta]

25. why anyone expects honest elections in 2006...

is beyond me.
sorry, I'm a cynic, and it generally serves me well in the end.

on edit: election fraud serves no one well I think we all can agree on that here.
What I meant was, I will not get all pumped up for possible honesty in a dishonest system, again.

[Booster]

27. How do you prepare for a stolen election? Everything was in

place the first time the election was stolen, but since they are in control of the universe, they just went around all of the controls. Without the Dems in Wash screaming their heads off, ain't nuthin gonna change.

[democraticinsurgent]

34. real alternate exit polling

wondering how many $ it would take to organize key-state exit polling for 2006? All you really need is a reliable/trustworthy market research company willing to take on the project, and a pile of money.

It would cost a fortune to do it nationally, but it would only have to be done in say 10 statewide elections (key Senate races) and maybe another 20 house districts.

This just doesn't seem impossible to me. I realize there will be credibility hurdles, but the key would be to hire a fairly big name firm and one that does not lean R.

If we really want to protect ourselves this year, this to me is one way to do it. I don't see adhoc citizen exit polling being anything other than a lot of effort and lacking credibility on the back end.

By the way I was an exit pollster in Indianapolis for Mitofsky in 2004 and would definitely be up for helping do this.

[stepnw1f]

37. Now This is Good!

And we can point out the fact, that we had to come up with money just to ensure our own votes in our own country.

[democraticinsurgent]

43. seems doable

maybe even better, decentralize it. raise the bucks (the hard part) and then hire several regionally based research firms to handle the exit polling.

that way no one could accuse the firm of being biased.

wonder if we could get moveon.org to spearhead such a thing?

[stepnw1f]

44. even better!!!!!!!

Would MoveOn do such a thing? How about a massive coalition of groups. We need as much muscle as possible. Good posts BTW, and nice to meet you.

[democraticinsurgent]

61. a coalition would be better still

the more diversity the better; leads to more impeccable results.

thanks for getting the ball rolling on this very important topic! we are all sweating out 2006 and for good reason. but we can do something!

nice to meet you as well.

best,

rick

[stepnw1f]

40. What's with all the Negativity?!

Christ you and others on this thread sound like you gave up. This is not why I started this thread.

[many a good man]

35. Careful! Machines are a red herring!

They want to attract all the attention to how crappy the voting machines are and how they can't be audited. Then they'll pull out all the old traditional tactics to suppress the vote and fudge the counts.

Investigations into the machines will expose all their flaws but it won't prove deliberate outright theft. They did this in '04 while they kept people off rolls, shorted precincts, challenged voters, stacked the electoral commissions with Pubes, etc.

These polls are setting us up with expectation that we can just coast to victory. Don't count on it! They are going to pull the vilest shit ever seen! And it won't be something obvious, like the machines. They have far, far too much to lose in November.

[stepnw1f]

38. So Damned if You Do, Damned if You Don't

you are speculating and shedding doubt... I'm looking for solutions to what we do know.

[helderheid]

59. I hate to say this but this beast may be too big to slay.

[LSK]

66. THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS!!!

Please make this a post of its own. I feel so many people think its all about the machines but SO MUCH of the previous elections were stolen by VOTER SUPPRESSION.

Lost voter registrations, discarded provisional ballots, election challengers, late absentee ballots, these are all issues that played a HUGE PART in the thefts of previous elections.

Democrats need to be on the ground ATT ALL PRECINCTS and fight for voters to have their right to vote UPHELD AND COUNTED.

ITS NOT ALL ABOUT THE MACHINES.

[Prophet 451]

42. Wish I could be optimistic...

...but I can't. Between Diebold, voter intimidation, surpression of minority voters, corruption, etc etc, I don't think it can be won. It's all very well to say "we'll get rid of the machines after we win" but the machines are preventing you from winning in the first place (partly). It's obvious to everyone except the 29%ers that Harvey The Wonder Hamster (of Weird Al fame) would make a better president but unless the electoral system is overhauled, it's not going to make any difference.

Oh sure, the conspiracy (and yes, I know that using the word "conspiracy" makes me an intellectual pariah but let's use the bloody word as it was intended) might let the Dems have the presidency back, just so it won't look too suspicious but there's no way they'll give up control of Congress because then, real investigations might be launched into the anomolies of 2000, 2004 and 2006; half the congressional Republicans could be up on criminal charges along with the entire Bush administration and worst of all, progressive legislation might actually be passed!

This is a holy war to them and, like any such war, any tactics are excusable. We've seen already the lows which the Republicans will sink to and I'll go further, if there was a way of personally murdering every single Democratic voter, the Bush administration would not even think twice about it. The current "power circle" (Bush and those surrounding him, Rove, Redrum, Cheney, etc) will do abolutely anything to keep power in Republican hands. If that means dirty tactics, vote theft, electioneering, crime, corruption or murder, they will do it without a second thought. Be ready for the dirtiest political battle in history and be prepared for the 29%ers to support the Republicans regardless.

All this is of course, assuming that Bush leaves office when the time comes and I have my doubts about that.

[stepnw1f]

46. Didn't Ask for Your Negativity

I asked for solutions.

[ecoalex]

50. How about prison for disenfranchaisement?

The repugs use the poppy bush death by 1000 cuts, a little here a little there, but it all adds up.Disenfranchaisement won for them in '00 and '04 .No new laws, or enforcement of disenfranchisement means status quo.In Ohio they laughed at the long lines and 4 hour + waits at colleges and inner city,while the surburbon voters had no more than 10 mins waits out of the rain.

[emcguffie]

52. Thank you for posting this.

I agree, we should have some plan for when they steal it, because I cannot imagine why they would not.

They will. Hower, if we should have some plan ready to stop them, perhaps they will fail. But if we have no plan in place, they certainly will succeed.. IMHO.

[femrap]

53. Until we get rid of e-voting, I am telling everyone to

vote absentee. At least there is paper involved.

Next, I am writing a letter to the Chair and Vice Chair of the Ohio Democratic Party asking them to do two things: 1. Encourage all Democratic candidates in the state to include one paragraph in their 'stump speeches' about Ken Blackwell (who is running for governor) and his reputation for dirty elections. At least plant the seed of the possible stolen election of '06...then if it does occur, people may be more inclined to fight or listen to Exit Polls. 2. Develop an Exit Poll system. I would think that there are serveral Professors (and Grad Students...get idea for a thesis) at Ohio State in Statistics that could assist the Dem Party on this.

Any other ideas?

[upi402]

56. I advocated voting absentee -mail in

Many replied that voting absentee was worse than voting the Diebold way or the risk of being ChoicePointed.

[Liberty Belle]

57. Massive marches in the street - mobilize the immigrants, anti-war groups,

Greens, Libertarians, and progressive organizations. If people would surround the seats of government and demand justice -- stage sit-ins, block entry for fraudulently elected candidates -- perhaps we'd stand a chance of a Ukraine-type outcome, especially in Congressional races where local recounts might be accomplished.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

63. Kicked and Recommended... they'll create a THIRD party first

as propaghanda cover and then say "yep, that THIRD party fragmented the Democrats so we win again!"

[leftofthedial]

67. If a Dem ever wins another national election

it will be because the repukes want him/her to.

The Dems have been either grossly incompetent or complicit in their failure to take this issue seriously.