An inconvenient truth for immigrant bashers

[Kelvin Mace]

[Waya]

1. AHO

[Catherine Vincent]

2. Yes but that's in the past.

The United States has set rules for entering this country illegally. :sarcasm:

[stepnw1f]

shhhh... shhhh... don't tell them that

we ripped the land off from native Americans and then later threw them into concentration camps around the country, where they still reside. Shhhhhh...

[demosincebirth]

3. Thats different, they were Europeans.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

4. Didnt work out very well for Americans did it?

Well, the real Americans who lived here at that time.

If fact the 'illegal immigrates' of 1492 destroyed the society that already lived in North America.

I don't think that Columbus bolsters the argument in favor of criminal immigration.

[Warpy]

5. The Caribs had no laws against immigration

and did have well established trade routes with all tribes bordering the Gulf and the Caribbean.

However, Columbus was the first IMPERIALIST to curse their shores.

[1932]

39. Interestingly, the movie The New World (not historical authority by any

means) does portray the situation in Jamestown as one where the Indians were willing to trade with the English on the condidition that they did temper their notions about property ownership. When it became apparent that the English were not going to comply, they were asked to leave, which did make them illegal immigrants in the eyes of the prevailing law. The English, however, subdued the natives not through an appeal according to the local justice system, but through self-help, with a heavy dose of militarism. Because of their overwhelming fire power, the English got their way.

[Selatius]

6. "Illegal immigrants" were at first welcomed by indigenous people

Thanksgiving Day is a testament to that.

What happened afterward?

The "illegal immigrants" slaughtered the indigenous people and took all their land and resources and confined the survivors to square boxes on maps called reservations.

I put "illegal immigrants" in quotation because Native Americans had no citizenship requirements to live on a piece of land because most of these people didn't even have the concept of private ownership, necessary for the functioning of exploitative capitalism.

[1932]

40. Native Americans did have a justice system and, I suspect, did ask

the English to leave, which would trigger the "illegal" status.

[Darkhawk32]

7. That was 1492. Wuh wuh we're talking about 2006. See? Different world.

[muntrv]

8. But since there were no immigration laws,

it was not illegal.:sarcasm:

[htuttle]

14. Considering how many treaties we broke in the process...

...of colonizing the entire continent, I think it *was* illegal.

[LittleClarkie]

9. What laws were they violating?

Oh that's right. There weren't any laws yet.

So, since there weren't any speeding laws in 1492, does that mean I should be able to speed?

[treestar]

86. Migration existed in 1492 but not speeding

Though violating the speed laws in a motor vehicle is far more dangerous than just migrating. Immediate danger to others on the road, physical danger. The only "danger" illegal aliens present is the largely imaginary idea that they are costing you some money. Which is the very difference between civil and criminal.

Illegal aliens have broken a law for which the remedy is deportation. That is not considered a criminal punishment in the law. It's just a trip back home. Just because you don't fall into the categories of which foreigners we allow in with visas. So the motive for enforcing it is not that great and not that immediate as it would be for crimes. If someone is out there killing people or robbing people, or driving drunk or speeding, I care more about Law enforcement tracking them down than someone who is at worst costing me a few dollars or not even doing that.

[LanternWaste]

10. You're gonna ...

You're gonna piss off those who place more faith in imaginary red and black lines on a map than in humanity.

(But you probably knew that already...)

:)

[Freedom_Aflaim]

24. Then why do criminal immigrants

Take the time to sneak across a line if its only imaginary?

[LanternWaste]

42. O-kay, I'll bite... why do they?

O-kay, I'll bite... why do they? Oh, sorry-- that probably was a rhetorical question on your part attempting to imply that those red and black lines really do exist.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

67. You figured it out.

why no one really believes that there is a line painted across 2,000 miles of desert landscape, the reality is that those lines are as real as you can get in practical terms. And thats what matters...practical terms as we all have to live in it.

Erase those "lines", and the conditions in each country will equalize, which means that for America, we'll soon resemble the shambles of other 3rd world countries which will make our current problems look like a walk in the park.

[treestar]

75. People don't try to get into third world countries

which partly explains why they are third world countries

[Freedom_Aflaim]

156. Actually they do {sometimes}

Mexico has its own illegal immigrate problem on ITS southern border.

[LanternWaste]

231. Odd.

So in a nutshell, people are always looking for a better way to keep food on the table for thier families, whether it's from a 3rd world country to a first world, or from a fourth world country to a third world.

Odd, though. I've lived in Mexico, and you're the first person I've *ever* heard, whether Latino or Anglo posit an immigration problem *into* MX

[LanternWaste]

99. You're right. We have ours-- screw "them"

You're right. We have ours-- screw (insert favorite "other" culture here)...


:eyes:

[Freedom_Aflaim]

154. You may feel that way but I don't

I have sympathy for the plight of citizens of 3rd world countries. I feel that we should do everything we can to help them rise above their poverty and situation.

However reducing our standard of living to match theirs is not the answer.

There is a legal path to come to the US. Millions do it every year. I encourage criminal immigrates to forego the illegal route and take the high road and do it legally.

[proud2BlibKansan]

188. There is a huge difference in that legal path

depending on where you are coming from.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

201. The high road is almost always more difficult.

You are quite correct of course that the legal path is more difficult. If it wasnt, nobody would choose the illegal path.

[proud2BlibKansan]

It is an inequitable policy that forces people to come here illegally

I can guarantee you that if I had a family to feed I would do anything - including crossing the border illegally - to do so. I dare anyone here to say they would not do so as well.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

218. As would most people

I have no fault with someone trying to feed their family. God bless them.

We need to modify our policy so that we CAN help these people. Im all for that.

In the meantime, I have a problem with much of the way its done now.

[Kelvin Mace]

224. I have a problem with how it is done now

as well, but criminalizing and militarizing the issue will make it worse.

Also, on the list of problems likely to cause serious irreparable harm to the country in the next decade, it is WAY down on the list.

[LanternWaste]

225. And *that* in a nutshell is the obvious fact.

And *that* in a nutshell is *the* obvious fact. And that is also the reason I have no problems with anyone jumping across an imaginery red/black line-- no one comes to steal a job, they come to feed their families.

Victor Hugo for pres in '08!

[LanternWaste]

216. guess I shouldn't credit people with being able to infer sarcasm.

No. I don't feel that way... I kinda thought anyone reading it would be able to see the obvious ... guess I shouldn't credit everyone with being able to infer obvious sarcasm.

Great. You don't think reducing our standard of living will help others. I do. Every bit of time and money I donate to charity reduces my standard of living and helps to raie the standards of others, regardless of how small the inrease may be.


That aside:
Don't talk down to me, kay? It advertises a helluva lot more than you probably realize.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

221. you preach to me about talking down to you

After you did it to me and put (ridiculous) words in my mouth.

thats some bad tasting medicine isnt it?

[LanternWaste]

227. They simply do not exist and wishing will not make it so.

I don't know what intellectual cob you have up your ass, but those red and black line ARE imaginary. They simply do not exist and wishing will not make it so.

That bit of medicine probably tastes worse, but them's the break, pal.

[Swamp Rat]

167. I guess you haven't been to New Orleans recently

Maybe life is a walk in the park for you, but not for Americans living here.

Hell, I just getting a roof on my house TODAY!

[Freedom_Aflaim]

177. Im struggling to understand the link between the two

Bush's response on both illegal immigration and Hurricane Katrina are both criminal.

Are you contemplating using illegal labor to rebuild New Orleans? I suppose if you choose to exploit them, that would make rebuilding considerably cheaper. Like I said I don't see a link other than a failure of leadership from the Bush administration.

I feel for your plight in New Orleans. I wasnt there and I don't live there. However illegals are very much affecting the rest of America as well as New Orleans in a negative way.

Best wishes on your roof and getting your life back on track.

[Swamp Rat]

191. "we'll soon resemble the shambles of other 3rd world countries"

Does that help?


http://graphics.boston.com:80/bonzai-fba/AP_Photo/2005/09/01/1125580196_0517.jpg

http://graphics.boston.com:80/bonzai-fba/AP_Photo/2005/09/01/1125580196_6234.jpg

[Freedom_Aflaim]

199. Yes I've seen these photos before

If you want all of America to look that way, turning a blind eye to illegal immigration is the ticket.

[Swamp Rat]

209. That's fallacious reasoning for a couple of reasons:

1. "If you want all of America to look that way" - I do not want all of America to look that way

2. "turning a blind eye to illegal immigration is the ticket." - Fallacy: 'Hasty Generalization'

Since I am very angry, hot, bored, no sleep, and sick from mold and no health insurance, and jobless (which is due to Bush cutting educational funding, not illegal immigration), I am willing to spend some time here breaking down every fallacy presented... it is, at least, better than beating the fuck out of heartless Americans... and believe me, I don't have much to lose either way.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

222. Look, I really do feel for your plight

and all of those around you.

I'll be more than happy to join you in a thread about the crimes of New Orleans and I think you'll find that Im on your side.

Im just saying the link between Katrina and poor border control is tenacious at best.

[Swamp Rat]

255. You made the link in this thread when you said:

"we'll soon resemble the shambles of other 3rd world countries which will make our current problems look like a walk in the park." - I gave you visual proof that we already resemble a third world nation in some areas... and I speak with a measure of authority since I am from New Orleans and have also lived in Central (en una chosa) and South America (em uma favela).

"If you want all of America to look that way, turning a blind eye to illegal immigration is the ticket." - You did not respond to my charges that this is a fallacious statement and I see another DUer in now questioning it.

The point is not about me, and my response. It is about your initial statement in this sub thread which you have not answered. When you post on DU, it is wise to be able to back up your statements.

Now, I will let others deconstruct your posts because I have to go thank the 5 Mexicans who just replaced half of my roof (IN ONE DAY!!!). And let me add, I have had to fire every American contractor over the last 9 months because they were incompetent, lazy, and made promises they had no intention of keeping. The Mexicans and Hondurans working in New Orleans, on the other hand, have done great work in the some of the worst conditions, and I would be roofless without them - Btw, hurricane season starts tomorrow.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

257. I don't have time to respond to all the attacks

Thats why I ignored your charge.

Once again, best of luck with your endeavor.

[Swamp Rat]

259. I knew you wouldn't back up your fallacious statements

Nevertheless, thanks for the well-wishing. :hi:

[Kelvin Mace]

269. Its not an "attack" when you have your argument

questioned because you use faulty facts.

[Kelvin Mace]

220. And HOW, pray tell

can a group of people who make up about 4% of the population going to inflcit the same amount of damage as a Cat 5 hurricane across the entire country?

[malaise]

189. It is the pope, Columbus, the Brits and

the Americans - all imperialists, who created the shambles in developing countries. Afterall nothing matters as long as that group control the earth's resources. Most of the earth's problems were created by greedy European men.

For the record it was the African slaves who built most of the south.

[Kelvin Mace]

50. "criminal immigrants"?

Can you explain that phrase? If I recall correctly, entering the country illegally is a civil offense, not a criminal one.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

65. Criminal immigrants

spend every single moment of their lives in America breaking the law.

Thats even if they don't work or steal an identity, their very preseence is illegal hence criminal.

Of course the reality is that most then continue to break the law: stealing the identity/ssn of a legitimate American, fraudently filling out forms that "affirm" that they can work here legally, driving without a license, without insurance, etc. The list goes on.

Yes, illegal immigrants are almost always criminals and spending every day breaking laws that protect legitimate Americans.

Criminal immigrants. Thats the cold hard truth about illegals.

[treestar]

77. They are in violation of a civil statute and your assumptions

hold no water.

Plenty of people who are US citizens break the CRIMINAL laws.

[LuckyLib]

112. And while they are breaking those laws, and paying taxes, let's just

hope you aren't one of those social security recipients on the end of their federal contribution! Don't want that check to dry up now, do we?

[Kelvin Mace]

113. Anyone have a number

on how much SS illegal immigrants pay that they will never collect? I've heard some impressive figures, but not seen a good source.

[endarkenment]

121. Google "suspense account".

It is currently something like 365B and growing. That is just the funds collected for bogus numbers for which there is no payee and doesn't count payments to legitimate accounts by the wrong person. But never mind that 'the illegals' are actually a small net benefit to the economy currently, and when they are eventually legalized will be the salvation of the SS funding crisis, the important thing is to nourish the hate, to feed the flames of intolerance.

[genieroze]

116. Criminal immigrants? What about criminal employers who know they are

here illegally or only here on temp visas and don't care. They use them for slave labor and it's the employers who depress wages. I know this from first hand experience. My sons had guaranteed jobs at the boardwalk in Seaside Heights NJ but the employer decided to go with the Russian immigrants and pay them below minimum wage off the books. The Russians didn't need to steal anything. Rather then pay my sons legally, he took the illegal route. This is the same place a few years back where they found immigrants from some Muslim countries working there and they were linked to Al Qaeda. There was no border for them to sneak across, they were flown in by employers and given temporary work visas. It's just as easy to get into this country legally on temp visas, then disappear. Are there criminal illegal immigrants? I'm sure there are. Are there criminal employers? I know there are.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

151. I completely agree

Employers who knowingly employee illegals are criminals and should be punished.

I don't have a problem with calling them criminal employers.

I believe we need to focus on the whole problem and not just the illegals themselves. While this thread is focused on illegals, our enforcement needs to look at the whole spectrum of causes.

[LostinVA]

54. "Criminal immigrants"???

Whatever.

Oh, how about the "criminal immigrants" who DON'T sneak across across a line... they just lie to the border guards... like all those nasty white, English-speaking Irish who enter the US every year... on nothing but LIES!!!

[Freedom_Aflaim]

61. What about them?

If you enter illegally, i.e. break laws to enter then you are a criminal.

Doesn matter if you commit fraud to get it in, or if you cross the desert in the middle of the night.

The result is the same.

[Kelvin Mace]

66. *sigh*

No, you misunderstand the basics of law. There is civil law and there is criminal law. The "law" in my city may say that my mailbox must be set back six inches from the curb. According to your view of the law, if my mailbox is set back only five inches, I am a criminal.

One may be designated a criminal only *after* one has violated criminal law, then been tried and convicted of said criminal offense.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

69. We are not talking about mailboxes

But that is a nice strawman. Would it be nice if we could fix our countrys problems by moving our mailboxes? How quaint.

We're talking about fraud, identity theft, immigration laws. The list goes on.

And while committing fraud at the border may be a civil offense, stealing your identity, trashing your credit in order to work certainly isnt.

[Kelvin Mace]

76. Uh, I was not making the argument for immigrants

by comparing it to mailboxes, I was using it to explain the difference between civil and criminal law, something you seemed unclear of

You are correct that identity theft, fraud and such *are* criminal offenses, but I have seen no evidence that illegal immigrants have taken to the practice wholesale.

May I assume you are a victim of ID theft which would explain your hostile tone?

[Ms. Clio]

129. Do you have any figures or facts to back up your claims?

Reputable sources on all the damage being done in terms of "identity theft" by farm workers who can't speak English?

[Freedom_Aflaim]

157. Google "suspense account" (to borrow from a poster above)

Billions of dollars paid in on fraudently used SSN accounts.

[Ms. Clio]

159. Paid into the SS fund by people who will never use that money

That does not equal "identity theft" in this or any other universe.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

160. Using my SSN number is theft

period.

It doesnt belong to anyone else but me.

the fact the US benefits from illegal activity by collecting taxes from criminal immigrants is irrelevant.

If you disagree, please kindly post your SSN number so that illegals can use it freely. Im sure you won't mind.

[Ms. Clio]

164. Please detail how you have been personally affected by this "theft"

Or post some facts and figures (from a reputable source, not FAIR or CIS) about the extensive damage that is caused to ordinary U.S. citizens by the use of false SS numbers to apply for lettuce-picking jobs.

I want EVIDENCE, not your constant unsupported assertions.

On edit: On second thought, I don't want any personal anecdotes from you. Anybody can say anything here. Just provide some links to reputable sources. Thanks.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

174. Post your SSN number

And I'll give you evidence.

Frankly I don't need to justify why I don't want someone using my property.

Its MINE.

[Ms. Clio]

175. So you don't actually have any facts or evidence at all

Thanks for proving my point.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

178. And your ssn number is?

Why do you wish to protect that thing?

Please share it. Many illegals will appreciate it.

Or perhaps you place some value in your identity??? I certainly do.

Thank YOU for proving my point.

[Ms. Clio]

182. I know you want to keep trying to confuse these two things

It's very disingenuous.

So why don't you post YOUR SSN, then post the details of the horror story that ensues when a Mexican lettuce-picker who doesn't speak English somehow uses that information to damage you in some genuine and significant fashion?

Here is your chance to contribute to journalism and history -- post your number, and tell us your horror story afterwards! Make sure you have all the documentary proof, of course.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

202. MY SSN valueable to me

And I don't want it stolen. So I will not post it. I don't want a criminal taking it.


You won't post yours either (good choice btw). It is either because it is valuable to you, or you don't have one. Both are reasonable reasons.


You seem to think that identity theft is something trivial and madeup. I disagree.

[Ms. Clio]

207. Genuine identity theft is not committed by the vast majority of immigrants

And you simply don't have any evidence to the contrary.

[Kelvin Mace]

212. He doesn't have to post the number

only tell us how he was harmed by illegal immigrants using his SSN.

That would be a start.

[Ms. Clio]

223. But I want to do a little social experiment!

First, he posts his number here. Then, we all wait for the criminals to go to work. Next, we all look at the documentary evidence and determine the probable national origin of the perps. If it's an illiterate Mexican farm worker, then maybe he's got a really great point!

[Freedom_Aflaim]

238. Thats ok.

Besides I asked you first :)

[Ms. Clio]

245. But you are the one who believes an "illegal alien" will steal your SSN

not me.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

246. Indeed.

[Ms. Clio]

247. So PROVE it n/t

[Freedom_Aflaim]

249. Prove that we disagree?

Look at this thread if you need proof of that.

[Ms. Clio]

251. No, provide a shred of credible evidence for any of your assertions

Wait, I think that's where our conversation started.

You simply don't have any.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

258. This is not a court of law, nor a trial

We're having a discussion.

you have your opinion and i have mine.

[Kelvin Mace]

261. Ah, bit you see

we kind of like fact-based opinions around here.

[Ms. Clio]

265. That's really humorous, since you are the one

tossing around legal terms with reckless abandon and insisting that undocumented immigration = fraud, identity theft, forgery, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum.

Now suddenly it's not about the law, or facts, or evidence.

Now it's merely your "opinion," and your own personal "truthiness."

I'm just glad we got that all straightened out.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

228. My story, my life is private

I intend to keep it that way.

Look how we all have felt about the NSA wiretapping everyone. I don't know about you but Im outraged by it.

Has it cost me any money? Nope. But that doesnt make it any less criminal.

Your argument seems to be that is someone "borrows" my SSN number, then its no harm, no foul. I disagree.

Just as my phone conversations are private, so is my financial information and my ssn.

When those are compromised, Im harmed..even if it doesnt cost any money.


If you really want stories about identity theft, Google is your friend. There are millions of stories to be told.

[Kelvin Mace]

169. Using your SSN

is theft, only if it is used to deprive you of money or property in some way. If it is used to establish a new identity, it is fraud, or potentially illegal conversion. If it is used to get a job it is a civil infraction. Whether it might also be a crime depends upon whether it can be established that the number was obtained in some fraudulent fashion or by coincidence. Illegals often "make up a number", which can turn out to be a real nunmber that belongs to someone.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

176. Please don't justify SSN and identity theft

Im sure that we can dream up scenarios to justify it, but most of society takes a dim view of it.

Respectfully, if you believe thats is OK for criminals to use others peoples SSN, you are certainly entitled to that view, and I doubt we will find common ground here...So we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Kelvin Mace]

179. If I make up an SSN

to write on a job application and that number just happens to be yours, that is NOT a criminal offense. Even if I learn of your SSN through some legitimate channel and use it to get a job, I have committed no criminal offense unless I represent myself as you or try in some way to collect your benefits.

I am not "justifying" anything, I'm simply explaining how the law works.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

180. Its Fraud

Fraud is illegal in every state.

Also you must do more than just make up a number.

You also need to forge documents with that made up number.

[Ms. Clio]

185. It's not "fraud," no matter how many times you say it

Are you a lawyer?

[Kelvin Mace]

192. While I am not a lawyer

I do understand the legal definition of fraud, which you apparently don't.

Let us turn to our dictionaries and look up fraud:

- intentional deception resulting in injury to another person
- deliberately deceiving another in order to damage them — usually, to obtain property or services from him or her unjustly

- conversion and obtaining money or property by false pretenses. Included are confidence games and bad checks, except forgeries and counterfeiting.

- intentional and successful employment of cunning, deception, collusion; or artifice used to cheat or deceive another person whereby that person acts upon it to the loss of his property and to his legal injury.

- False and deceptive statement of fact intended to induce another person to rely upon and, in reliance thereof, give up a valuable thing he or she owns or a legal right he or she is entitled to.

- leading a person to believe something which you know to be false in a situation where you know the person will rely on that thing to their detriment.

- deception, intended to wrongfully obtain money or property from the reliance of another on the deceptive statements or acts, believing them to be true.

- The intentional perversion of the truth in order to mislead someone into parting with something of value.

- any deception, lie, or dishonest statement make with the intent to cheat someone.

Do you see a common thread? For fraud to have happened someone must be injured in some palpable form.

As to "forging documents" with that number, I have NEVER been asked for my SSN in my entire life (45 years). If you did create a SS card with the number, you would be guilty of forgery, not fraud. If you used the forged card to obtain a job, you are still not committing CRIMINAL fraud.

In order to defraud the employer, you must do something to deprive him of something of value. If you forged a medical certificate and claimed to be a doctor, then you would be defrauding the hospital that hired you of something of value (your salary). If your job is landscaping or construction and you simply give a fake SSN to get the job, the employer has suffered no damage.

What you are doing is similar to the argument made by Wingers that "abortion is murder".

No, abortion is a medical procedure, and performed according to the law is perfectly legal. Just because you call it murder doesn't make it so.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

198. The employer is at risk with illegals

Because they are illegal. That itself equates to damages.

While we know that many employers knowingly hire illegals, some employers also unknowingly do so because the illegals forged documents.

I think we've reached the end of the discussion.

I do not excuse identity theft, criminal immigration, nor forgery. Im not sure what else there is to discuss.

[Ms. Clio]

203. Yet you continue to "discuss it,"

using inaccurate and inflammatory rhetoric such as "identity theft," "forgery," and "fraud."

[Freedom_Aflaim]

206. lol

"inflammatory rhetoric such as "identity theft," "forgery," and "fraud.""

If its inflammatory its because it is what it is.

[Ms. Clio]

210. You have absolutely no facts, figures or evidence

Just talking points.

[Kelvin Mace]

208. And he uses the terms in exactly

the same manner that the anti-abortion crowd use "murder", "homicide" and "genocide". He is appealing to emotion rather than reason.

[Ms. Clio]

215. That's an excellent observation

But that's why there are no links provided by most of these folks -- they usually don't have any facts or figures or genuine evidence to back up their emotional assertions.

Apparently they are relying on their "gut" for "truthiness" in these complex issues.

[Kelvin Mace]

204. No, he is NOT at risk

If he fails to perform his "due dilligence" that is *his* fault.

You have still failed to explain why you conflate ID theft with illegal immigration. Being in the country illegaly is NOT a criminal offense, it is a civil infraction, though you may commit or may not commit some criminal offense to get here (or you may not).

For the record, I do NOT excuse any of these crimes. But I object to calling things something they are not. Making up a fake SSN is not ID theft, and it is not fraud. It is forgery if I create a fake SS card, but not if I write a fake SSN on a job application.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

214. Thats quite a bit of dancing between the raindrops

Let see.

Identity theft, document forgery, fraud, illegal status,...All hunkey dorey because you've found a loophole

If its all so legal and ok, makes one wonder why we have even a border at all.

I don't know what line of work you are in, but you should be a lawyer because apparently you have solved the problems of millions of people who have snunk in, and/or waiting to sneak in.

Congratulations. I don't even understand why we bother to have these conversations since apparently its all ok.

[Ms. Clio]

226. I asked you before if you were a lawyer

I know it's inconvenient, but those words you throw around have legal definitions.

[Kelvin Mace]

233. Reminds me of the fellow who claims I slandered

him in a forum. I explained to him it was impossible for me to "slander" him, since slander was spoken. I could only "libel" him, and I had done no such thing. He then argued that libel and slander were the same thing. When I showed him the dictionary definitions of the term, he accused me of "splitting hairs" and since I wasn't a lawyer, I really didn't know what I was talking about anyway.

[Ms. Clio]

243. Yes, legal terms have precise definitions, don't they?

Seems like we don't have to be lawyers to know that much. :)

[Kelvin Mace]

230. You keep repeating the same things

You keep claiming that things are ID theft, when they are not, and fraud, when they are not. I have take time to meticulously explain my position and the precise legal meanings of the words you toss around. You just keeping tossing the terms around incorrectly, then accuse me of condoning illegal acts which I certainly have not.

Personally, I think that on the issue of immigration you are really hanging with the wrong crowd here.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

239. Oh I know

That why I said we've reached an impasse. We disagree and we BOTH keep repeating the same things.

[Kelvin Mace]

253. The difference is you keep calling

something ID theft, when it isn't, and fraud when it isn't. Words, especially legal terms have very specific meanings, yet you keep using the words incorrectly.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

256. And you keep saying it isnt

When it is.

Words, especially legal terms have very specific meanings, yet you keep using the words incorrectly.

Wanna go around again?

[Kelvin Mace]

262. No, I keep saying it isn't and provide

factual proof, the precise definition of words in law to back up my position.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

263. I completely disagree

Wanna go around again?

[Kelvin Mace]

267. Nope , I can't argue

with someone impervious to logic.

[proud2BlibKansan]

266. So if they use your number and contribute their earnings to

your SS fund, they are stealing exactly what from you?

[Ms. Clio]

128. You are a criminal, too

I am certain that you have broken at least one law -- jaywalking, speeding, ran a red light -- once in your life.

If you break laws then you are a criminal. Forever and ever amen.

[Kelvin Mace]

137. Again,

let's clarify here:

You are a criminal when you are convicted of criminal violation. Most traffic violations are civil infractions, not criminal. Illegal immigration is a civil infraction (which the Right is trying to criminalize). If you file for a SS card then you have committed perjury, and htis is a criminal infraction. If you simply give a fake number to your employer, that is a civil infraction. You are not under oath when you fill out a job application, nor are you swearing under penalty of perjury about the information therein.

[Ms. Clio]

143. Thanks, I was just trying to point out what a ridiculous argument this is

Using this person's "logic," all of us are "illegals."

And was "the law the law" when Clinton was impeached for perjury? Or was that somehow something else?

[Kelvin Mace]

153. Oh, I agree

the whole point of my graphic was turning the Right's silly argument back on itself. I never would have thought it would generate this kind of thread.

[proud2BlibKansan]

190. Congratulations Kelvin!

You have met one of the many immigrant bashers right here on DU. Actually, I hope you are grateful. Saves you a trip to one of those other websites where you expect this kind of crap.

[Kelvin Mace]

194. Here I am, hangin out in a different forum

to get away from the BevBots and I get a new set of gits.

[proud2BlibKansan]

197. It's unreal, isn't it?

People who call themselves Democrats. Well they don't sound like any Democrats I know.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

152. Yes. And If I were a criminal in any other country on Earth

If I stole identities, broke immigration laws, comitted fraud to obtain employment, every single country on Earth would deport my but back the to US...although they may also choose to make me inmate at a facility of their choice for a awhile first.

While you free to equate illegal immigration to Jay walking, I respectfully disagree and I doubt that we'll ever find common ground on this point.

[Ms. Clio]

161. Yeah, and if you equate crossing an imaginary line on a map

because your ability to support yourself and your family by farming corn in your own country has been destroyed by U.S. agribusinesses and "free trade," with a genuine "crime," then you are absolutely right that we have no common ground. Funny how all you "law and order" types want to pick and choose, though. Using your own relentless logic, a jaywalker has broken the law! so of course she is now an "illegal." Sorry, the law is the law!

Nobody is "stealing an identity" by using a fraudulent SS number to get a job, no matter how many times you attempt to conflate those two entirely different things.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

181. Then we disagree

You rationalize fraud and identity theft.

I don't.

[Ms. Clio]

183. You conflate "fraud" and "identity theft" with undocumented immigration

So I most certainly do disagree with your inaccurate and inflammatory rhetoric.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

241. Fair enough

Then we go our seperate ways.

[Kelvin Mace]

186. You keep conflating identity theft with

illegal immigrants. While some illegal immigrants do commit ID theft, the vast majority don't. Establishing a fake identity is NOT ID theft. If I obtain a job at Wendys with a fake name and SSN, how am I defrauding anyone? If I work my hours, I get paid a salary, from which taxes are deducted. Where's the fraud?

Fraud is a CRIMINAL infraction. ID theft is a CRIMINAL infraction. Obtaining a SSN with a fake ID is a CRIMINAL infraction, but using it to get a job is NOT. Being in the country illegally is a CIVIL infraction.

If you criminalize illegal immigration then anyone who helps such a person would become an accesory to a crime. And that, sir, opens a real big can of worms.

[proud2BlibKansan]

193. And therein lies the problem with Sensenbrenner's bill

It would criminalize my actions as a teacher. Under this bill, if my school enrolls a child who is not a US citizen, we are breaking the law. Even if the child IS a citizen, the law can be read to mean that enrolling that child is helping the parents and if they are undocumented immigrants, we are breaking the law. If I teach a child who is not a US citizen, I am breaking the law.

Let's say the family needs groceries. I make a phone call to a food bank (something I do a couple times a week). If anyone in that family is undocumented, I am breaking the law.

I will flat out quit my job before I allow my govt to tell me I am a criminal for doing my job and for HELPING HUMAN BEINGS.

This makes me so angry I can barely see straight.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

205. You are defrauding your employer

Who is now at risk for hiring an illegal

Some employers hire them knowingly. Some employers hiring them unknowingly. Both are at risk for fines and other penalitys.

[Ms. Clio]

229. Again, are you a lawyer?

You don't seem to know what you are talking about at all.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

242. No Im not a lawyer

I missed where you asked me the first time.

Im not a duck either, but I know that water is wet.

[Ms. Clio]

244. Not a lawyer, no facts and figures, just "truthiness"

Okay!

[Freedom_Aflaim]

248. I take it that you are a lawyer?

Good for you.

[Ms. Clio]

250. I'm not a lawyer, but I do understand that legal terms

have precise meanings.

I hope that you understand that now, as well.

[Kelvin Mace]

234. There is NO legal risk

to the employer if he takes prudent and customary precautions against hiring illegal aliens.

Is an illegal Guatamalan more likely to poison my Big Mac than a legal alien or natural born citizen? Is the illegal Cuban gardener more likely to plant a land mine in my geraniums?

[liberalhistorian]

211. Actually, historically speaking it's still

their country, and not ours. There's a lot of truth to the signs that say "we didn't cross the border, the border crossed us." We've been illegal immigrants in this country since 1492, like it or not.

[Scoody Boo]

11. If you go further back...

then even the "Native Americans" came here illegally across the artic land bridge.

We may have come from immigrants, but 90% of the people in Amrica were born here. I wasn't, but that only means I am in the other 10%.

I had to jump through all sorts of hoops to live here legally. I do not see where the fairness is in just allowing people to come here just because they want to.

[Waya]

15. Yea....but the land was uninhabited then.....

...we didn't have to steal it from anyone, we didn't have to subjugate any population in the name of Freedom, we didn't have to try and exterminate an entire race for the privilige of living here, did we?

[Scoody Boo]

17. Well all of the people I know...

have not subjugated or killed anyone. Most Americans were born here, in the US. I was born with a completely clean slate and any sins I myself have committed are the only ones I have to atone for and I feel that way about every last person living in the US.

Well you ancestors did this or that! Yeah, well I had nothing to do with it and neither did you. I swear, guilt is a tougher drug than heroin for some people.

[Kelvin Mace]

53. There is a difference between

"guilt" and recognizing legitimate grievances and trying to address them.

I do not feel "guilty" for what was done to Native Americans, or slaves, I feel outrage. I am saddened as a human being that we have done, and continue to do such things. The harm that was done to minorities in the past is still being felt and must be addressed.

[JuniperLea]

18. The City of Los Angeles and many more

will die a horrid death if the borders are opened.

Does two or three or two hundred or three hundred wrongs make a right?

We have no infrastructure, so if they all come here, here will be just like there. So they may as well stay there and save us all the time, money and frustration.

Meanwhile, we can work to strengthen our country's infrastructure so we can accommodate more people. Letting them all in before that is putting the cart before the horse, but in a deadly serious way.

A vote for opening the borders is a vote for the return of Medieval life... only here and now... backed up sewage systems, no clean water, filth, disease, death...

[Scoody Boo]

29. It would be completely unfair to legal immigrants...

I came here from Mexico to get away from those people.

[JuniperLea]

32. To get away from "those people"?

A little harsh? Aren't they your countrymen?

[Scoody Boo]

35. No, Americans are my countrymen.

I never would have served in the Mexican Army. I am very proud of my service in the US Army.

I left Mexico for a reason. Because I did not like it there and now great swaths of the Southwest are turning into the exact same place that I left.

[JuniperLea]

36. Can't argue with that

I'm braced to be living in New Mexico City.

Still, I hope you are talking about the government and not the people. Much like the majority of Americans are not like their government.

Mexico was once a beautiful country. The Mexican people are beautiful souls. The USA still has a chance if we think with our heads.

[Scoody Boo]

38. The problem with Mexico is...

the pseudo-socialism of the people in power. Every socialist I ever met down there, every socialist politician was always very rich. And these "socialists" always had these big plans for everyone's money but never for their own.

That is why I literally roll my eyes when ever I hear concern for the poor being spewed by the lips of politicians.

I vote for Democratic candidates because of many issues, but never because I ever felt that they were as concerned for the poor as they say they are.

[Kelvin Mace]

57. Apparently, many of your former countrymen

wish to come to America as well.

[Scoody Boo]

72. And they should jump...

through the same hoops I did.

[Kelvin Mace]

78. Some would, if they had the resources

some are, but have to eat now. The issue is complex and the "simple solutions" on tap will only make things worse.

[Bridget Burke]

81. "Jumping through hoops" usually means paying immigration lawyers...

Too expensive for the working Mexicans.

[Kelvin Mace]

90. Legal fees are what caused my Mom to

become an "illegal".

My mother was Dublin-born, married my father in England and came to the States as a legal permenant resident (green card and work permit) in 1961.

My father (a Marine and Air Force vet) died in 1967 when I was six and my sister was nine months. For the next 18 years she raised us on a minimum wage job and SS/VA survivor benefits. In 1987, she went back to Ireland to visit family, met a guy, and got engaged. She came back to the US and inquired about her status and was told she could keep her green card as long as returned to the US at least once every ten years. She went back to Ireland and got married. She visited several times for my sister's graduation, marriage, etc, over the next few years.

The marriage ended in 1992, and she returned to the states where she had her green card confisacted and cancelled. Seems the law had changed and you had to return to the US every TWO years to retain your status and my Mom had missed it by three weeks.

They explained she would have to re-apply for permenant residence status and for a work permit. My mom looked into the paperwork for this and was overwhelmed. The cost of a lawyer was a bit hard to come by, since she wasn't allowed to work. My mom didn't mention this to my sister or I because she felt ashamed that she had "lost" her standing and felt it was "her fault" despite the fact that she was never notified of the rule change.

So, she overstayed her visa, and got a job. Since she already had a SS#, she had no problems with that. She worked, paid her taxes, and put away some money for a future lawyer. Sadly, she was hit by a car in 1995 and it was when I was going through her papers that I learned of her status as an "illegal".

Is this typical? No, but it is one of many stories about how silly our imiigration laws are.

[Scoody Boo]

84. If you don't...

then you shoud not come here. They are no poorer than I was. I don't know, but I thinks laws should apply to everyone without exceptions for poverty or race.

[Kelvin Mace]

94. "poor" is a relative term

I have seen very wealthy people claim to be poor. Your average congressman makes $144,000 a year, plus generous benefits, yet he sees himself as a "working stiff" just like my mom who made $1 over minimum wage in a nursing home with minimal insurance.

Also, if you believe that money doesn't play a major issue in who gets a green card and who doesn't, then you need to open your eyes a little wider.

[Scoody Boo]

97. I was selling "chicles"...

in the street at 5 years old. I was working at a scrap yard junking cars with axes and wedges at 12. I came to the US at 14.

Poor is poor. If you look at poor relatively, then you are not truly poor.

[Kelvin Mace]

102. How did you come to the US?

Somehow you (or your family) had the money to get into the US. There are people in African nations who will have a hard time raising the money to get to the US border. You were lucky in that you were living in a country adjacent ot the US.

So, yes, poor *is* a relative term.

[Scoody Boo]

110. How I got to be here...

is a long, involved and personal story so forgive me if I do not get into it on an open message board.

I came here legally using the same mechanism open to many people.

There are certain parameters that people have to meet to come here and "wanting to" is probably at the bottom of the least. If they are not met, they should not come.

[Bridget Burke]

118. If you can't disguise the "personal" details of your immigration....

Please forgive me if I don't believe you.

[Ms. Clio]

130. He claims to be a soldier

So if his story is true, he's probably one of the immigrants who join the U.S. military to get citizenship.

[Bridget Burke]

134. But he says he came here at 14....

That's a little young to join the service.

[Ms. Clio]

136. Perhaps joined at 18 to become a citizen?

It does seem odd that he managed to immigrate "legally" when so many others in that Mexican "shithole" he despises so much don't have the same opportunity.

[Bridget Burke]

145. Which leaves a gap of 4 years.

I'm glad for Mexico that he left, but sorry that he picked the USA.

[Ms. Clio]

168. There are a lot of gaps in the story, IMO

and who knows what is true and what is false?

[Scoody Boo]

213. I came here when I was 14...

graduated high school at 18. Went to Angelo State University for four years, worked a couple of years and then joined the Army. That should fill in all the gaps there for ya.

[Scoody Boo]

149. I was in my 20's...

when I enlisted.

[proud2BlibKansan]

196. Maybe he had a fake ID

:)

[Scoody Boo]

147. I was already a citizen when I joined the Army.

In fact I was already out of college when I enlisted.

[Scoody Boo]

146. My mother...

came to the US years before I did. She sponsered me. Why she left me behind, that is personal.

[Bridget Burke]

150. So YOU didn't do anything....

Of course, your mother came legally?

[Kelvin Mace]

155. As I said

I didn't know about her status until after she was dead. But, according to the law that the Right was trying to push, I would have been committing a criminal act if I had become aware of it while she was alive and didn't drop a dime on her.

[Bridget Burke]

158. Actually, I wasn't replying to your message....

(What a long thread we're weaving here.)

I was replying to someone boasting how HE became a legal immigrant by going through the proper channels. That is, his mother sent for him.

You did the right thing. My grandparents came over from Ireland when all they had to do was show up at Ellis Island & pass the physical. No Immigration Lawyers Need Apply!

[Ms. Clio]

170. And she came here legally, somehow

Funny how that worked out so well for both of them, when it doesn't seem to be so easy for all the rest of "those people" back in the "shithole."

[Scoody Boo]

219. She came to the US...

in the early 60's. Much different time and probably easier to do. I came in the 70's.

[Scoody Boo]

166. Yes, she did. n/t

[Kelvin Mace]

56. "Those people"?

Who, pray tell, are "those people"?

[Scoody Boo]

73. The same ones...

who made Mexico a shithole I could not stomach to live in anymore.

[Kelvin Mace]

80. I've got news for you

There are a lot of people in this country who are turning it into a "shithole". You'll find them in every land.

You can demonize them, or you can try and educate them. One is simple, the other is hard.

[Ms. Clio]

133. well, those same people are busily turning the U.S. into a shithole

Bienvenido!

[Blue_Tires]

103. "those people?"

oh, dear

[Kelvin Mace]

55. OK, I'm lost here

Who is advocating "open borders"?

[Turn CO Blue]

83. You forgot your sarcasm thingy, right?

[Kelvin Mace]

52. Ah, no...

When the native Americans came across the land bridge, the land was uninhabited, so they could not be illegal in any way.

[charlie]

12. Well, if the Injuns didn't have the good sense

to put up a stout chainlink fence with itty bitty flags on top, sucks be to them.

[Richard Steele]

13. "All the problems we face in the United States today ...

“All the problems we face in the United States today
can be traced to an unenlightened immigration policy
on the part of the American Indian” Pat Paulson

[JuniperLea]

16. They broke no laws

And there was plenty of clean water to drink...

Granted, my perspective is different than most because my people met my people at Plymouth Rock... and my City of the Angels will be the first to be turned into the new Mexico City if the floodgates open.

Your hating of the alleged "immigrant bashers" is no less hate than what you propose to detest.

[Kelvin Mace]

27. Where did I say I "hate" anyone?

[JuniperLea]

31. Hate is something that doesn't need a lable n/t

[Kelvin Mace]

49. Well, as it is my post

and I created the graphic to tweak the anti-immigrant crowd as well as provide context to the immigrant debate, I think I know whether I did this as a means of expressing hatred.

[Bridget Burke]

51. It looks like humor to me.

However, the anti-immigrant crowd is notably lacking in that area. They also lack a sense of irony.

--Like the ones complaining that their beautiful city will soon become a Medieval slum. Although the area was much more beautiful before THEY arrived to suck up the water, build all over the the hills & pump hydrocarbons into the air.

[Kelvin Mace]

74. Yeah, I am beginning to notice that

I'm also amazed that such right-wing sentiments exist here. I get the whiff of fear, hysteria, and not a little racism.

[JuniperLea]

173. Does it make you feel better about yourself to insult those who have

a different view?

[Kelvin Mace]

195. I wasn't aware that saying someone

lacked a sense of irony was "insulting".

[JuniperLea]

200. I didn't have control over any of that

And all we have to work with is what we have now. None of us can go back and change what our predecessors did with the land, all we can do is use some care and logic going forward.

The portion of the city where I live will be the last affected by the severe overpopulation you suggest. I'm not worried for myself, but I guess you missed that part. I'm talking about the immigrant neighborhoods where people have been for years and have made their homes and gardens and have raised their families. They worked hard for that little sliver of space. They keep it neat, tidy, painted, repaired and happy. They will suffer, not you or me.

You are quick to criticize yet I've never seen you offer up a suggestion to help these people. And it will be a Medieval city they are left with... no solid waste disposal, no sewer system, no clean water... which will lead to rat and insect infestation and disease. And the people who work so hard to come here will wind up living just as they did in their own country. All for what? Who benefits?

You seem to have no problem using my words in an attempt to slam me somehow, but you seem to have a problem responding to the issues I raise.

[Bridget Burke]

46. There are plenty of large cities with massive problems....

Why do you always refer to "Mexico City" with such horror?

Of course, the original inhabitants of your city are long gone. But El Pueblo de Nuestra Senora la Reyna de Los Angeles de Porciuncula was a much prettier place than the modern city.

[stepnw1f]

106. I Caught That Too...

My question is, why was funding cut to border security by the Bush Admin and GOP in the first place? Doesn't that make people wonder? And who is hiring illegal aliens? And why doesn't Bush demand Mexico start building a middleclass to keep their people healthy and satisfied with their own living and working conditions.

I am sick of the right wingers playing mind games with people. If they are not going to be honest with themselves, how in the hell can any solution be possible. Everything these idots have done has scxrewed this country more and more, but hell... we are unpatriotic for pointing out the INCONVENIENT TRUTHS> They don't want solutions, they want strings attached to everything.

I'd say the right wing has been Duped again! And notice how the left is constantly accused of wanting open borders. Another bullshit right wing myth, brought to you by assholes in power.

[Kelvin Mace]

122. I am astonished

at the bile that came out over my original graphic. I have been accused of "hating" people, of "warped thinking", "insanity" and more.

[stepnw1f]

142. You Hit a Nerve

That's a good thing.

[JuniperLea]

232. That has nothing to do with the issue at hand

Why do you insist on talking about things we cannot change? Do you expect me to feel guilty for what was done in the past?


Have you been to Mexico lately? Have you tasted the air in Mexico City? The water? Have you seen the barefoot, dirty, malnourished children? Don't you believe that conditions are very bad there and that is why so many people want to leave? There is no middle class there at all. You are either wealthy and have all the things you need or your are poor and have none of the things you need.


Can you offer one good, solid bit of information as to why it is a good idea to open the borders?

[High Plains]

139. This is getting tiresome. You sound like a Californio in 1847.

By the way, what is the name of your city and what language is that name?

[JuniperLea]

237. Why do you insist on bringing up the past?

We need to look forward. We have nothing to do with what was done in the past except that is what we have left to work with now.

[msongs]

19. "native americans" were the first illegal immigrants and more than

that they were the first humans to slaughter each other on what is now called the north american continent, long before they ever saw the first 'white" man. the only reason the europeans outlasted the "native americans", who were in fact NOT native to America, is that they had better technology, sicker diseases and religions, and did not walk every where they went.

the bigotries you apply only to others are in fact generic to all humans.

BTW, the "native americans" themselves bashed quite a few immigrants, illegal or not.



Msongs
www.msongs.com
batik & digital art
mugs and shirts

[Kelvin Mace]

124. How were they illegal immigrants?

No one was here until they came?

WHo was here before the Indians?

[Cleita]

135. Your post shows how silly the phrase "illegal immigrant" is.

It's up there with the "when does life begin" RW wedge issue doublespeak offered to the masses like pablum.

[sadiesworld]

20. Yeah, I'd cut and run on this trifling BS as well.

What next? Pics of slave ships next to cruise liners filled with "guest workers"?

[Virginia Dare]

59. Great post...

:thumbsup:

[JuniperLea]

260. Yes, it is...

and do you notice how it stands alone? Interesting.

[tocqueville]

21. here are the real culprits...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leif_Ericson

they say he named the country Helluland...

(was Canada of course)

[Bridget Burke]

48. But everyone knows they used Irish maps!

Reportedly, Oscar Wilde said that "America" had been discovered several times. But it had always been hushed up.

The skraelings convinced the Norse to leave; the climate was also turning colder. It's quite possible that small groups of Europeans arrived in the New World from time to time. A few may have died--but most probably joined up with the "Natives." Until the big stampede started, after Columbus.

[treestar]

79. And ironically the average Mexican will have a lot of Native

American blood - far more than the average US citizen.

[hunter]

144. The Native Americans booted those guys out.

Crazy ass white people.

[Ksec]

22. so you obviously think exploitation of people is all good.

Shame on you. These people werent being exploited by greedy corporations. Today they are and thats just fine for you. Whats wrong with you?

[jerry611]

23. You guys need to understand something

There is a gigantic difference between immigrants and illegal aliens.

Also, I don't remember mega-corporations exploiting the labor of Columbus's men back in 1492. I also don't remember the indians having any laws against immigration.

And one more point... only a stupid idiot would think you can compare 1492 to 2006. The world is a VERY different place now.

[stepnw1f]

25. lol (nt)

[jerry611]

28. You are comparing a 2006 issue to Columbus in 1492?

That's just stupid. There was no country here. The indians had no sovereignty. They had no border.

I guess since Columbus was an immigrant we should just open our borders and not pay any attention to the people that come in. Is that what you are saying?

I mean seriously, you open-border people are insane! Your thinking is warped!

[stepnw1f]

33. jerry? Do You Have a Problem with Insulting DUers?

I mean the name calling isn't even necessary. Also... the comparison wasn't really made by me was it? On top of it, it was a joke with a sliver of truth.... now who is stupid, jerry?

Still, I know why it pisses you off, and think it's verrrry funny.

[Bridget Burke]

58. Apparently he has NO problem with that!

Severe lack of humor is a symptom of Right Wing Mind Rot.

[stepnw1f]

91. LOL... I Believe He Saw Through the Humor

and is reacting to the point the OP made. Which was a very good one and verrry telling.

This is a good way to counter the right wing spin.

[jerry611]

89. I never said you were stupid

I said it was stupid to compare this issue of today to an event that occured 500 years.

[stepnw1f]

96. That's the Point

to counter the silly hysteria over illegal aliens. At least if people are gonna get pissed off, they should go directly after the source of the problem, which is what the right wing ignores... corporations and wealthy folks hiring them. If they did that, I'd take them more seriously.

We could also pressure Mexico to raise Mexicans standard of work and living conditions... but the right wing doesn't like that do they? Hell, they'd like us all to work for peanuts if they could, or live in debt like indentured servants, so that we have a monarchy here instead of a Democracy held together with a thriving middleclass. Every domestic policy the GOP comes out with HURTS the middleclass, not help the middleclass.

[jerry611]

101. I've made the point very clear many times

I want anyone that hires illegal immigrants to be punished and the corporation to be heavily fined.

I also want any illegal immigrant in the US today that wants to become a citizen to go back to their country of orgin and go to the back of the line like everyone else. That's only fair.
Why should people who were able to sneak by the border patrol and break the law be allowed to butt in line in front of the millions of people waiting in line outside the country?

As for Mexico, they will never raise the standard of living. And even if they wanted to, it would take generations. The economy is a disaster. And why should it be our problem when Mexicans choose bad leaders to run their government? Why is it our problem to fix Mexico?

[Kelvin Mace]

109. With all of the other problems we face

usurpation of the Constitution
war crimes
global warming
peak oil
nuclear proliferation
collapse of our health care system
pollution
the rise of the corporate oligarchy

and DOZENS more equally compelling problems,

Immigration is WAY down on my list of priorities.

I would prefer that we spend more time examining shipping containers in Long Beach than staging INS raids on Cinco de Mayo parties in Boise.

[stepnw1f]

111. "Why SHould It Be Our Problem"... ahhh.. CONVENIENCE

once again trumps reality. I don't know if you haven't noticed, BUT IT IS OUR PROBLEM already! And a little wall/fence isn't going to help. Rounding up Mexicans would be extremely stupid as well. Nobody is saying we should allow anything illegal, so stop with the right wing crap!

If you want to have a SERIOUS DEBATE, BE HONEST AND DON'T THROW STRAWMEN ARGUMENTS AROUND HERE.

People are sick of it and just won't take you seriously, because it makes you look uniformed and arrogant.

You want people to stop coming over the border? Pay attention to the WHY! Until then, bandaids won't stop the bleeding, and they'll find other ways of getting over the border. Desperate people do desperate things. Let's not feed the problem by ignoring its source.

[Kelvin Mace]

108. Again, irony is wasted on the clueless

It is NOT stupid to make the comparison, the point of the post was to use their own language and logic against them.

Anti-abortionists like to point out that every abortion has the potential to kill the next Einstein, or Mozart, or Jonas Salk. I then point out that abortion is also likely to kill the next Hitler, Stalin, or Saddam Hussein.

[Kelvin Mace]

63. Again, please point

to where I or anyone else in this thread have advocated "open bordes".

I think the Indians would have a different view of whether they had sovereignty or not.

The point of the graphic was to provide a little counter-context to the anti-immigrant view of immigrants as "rabble".

Context is everything. One man's freedom-fighter is another man's terrorist. The words used by the British for our "Found Fathers" was "traitors".

[jerry611]

92. OK so let me get this straight

You oppose building a fence or wall.
You oppose sending the illegals that are here back to Mexico.
You oppose putting any form of force (national guard) on the border.
You make a claim that we are all illegal immigrants.

Yet you say you don't approve of open borders? When you don't secure the border, that means that you support leaving it the way it is...unsecured and open.

[Kelvin Mace]

100. Again, please point to where I have made specific

claims about my views on immigration other than creating a graphic that tweaks anti-immigrant views?

For the record, I support CIVILIAN control of our borders. Giving such a task to the military is BAD precedent. I am perfectly willing to see increased funding for our border patrol. But it must remain a civilian POLICE function, not a military function.

Building a wall or fence is a stupid waste of resources.

If you are arrested as an illegal alien, then you should be subject to deportation. I oppose any attempt to turn my country into a police state in order to alleviate people's irrational fears of illegal immigrants and/or terrorists.

That said, the whole issue is overblown by the Right who desperately need an issue to distract people from real problems and it is sad to see people here falling for it.

[Virginia Dare]

68. Beg to differ....

the mega-corporation that was the Catholic Church and the Spanish Crown Rulers exploited and enslaved the people in America (the first case of outsourcing?) Columbus' men were mercenaries (the first jackboots?)

Things haven't changed all that much in the scheme of things....

[Bridget Burke]

85. Then, why.....

Did those Evil Catholics not manage to kill off the natives as efficiently as the Right Thinking Anglos?

[Virginia Dare]

93. It was not their aim to kill them....

they wanted to convert them. The Spaniards wanted their land and resources and labor.

Edited to add: I did not say the Catholics were evil.

[bleedingheart]

87. The Spanish Monarchy was the corporation and it

enslaved the Indians...The Indians were enslaved, beaten, murdered and decimated by European diseases....their heritage was demonized they were forced to become Christians to serve their European masters.

hmmmm...

I would liken it to the corporations (monarchy) and they are using the cheap labor (Mexicans, indigenous people) as their cheap labor...and Americans are being taught to demonize them as well....

[Bridget Burke]

95. It was much more efficient to kill them all off....

Or move them to "reservations" near Fort Stinking Desert.

That's what the Anglo colonists did. Now, the descendants of those who survived the Spanish are coming North & they're offended.

[Virginia Dare]

107. Yes, and let's not forget...

Once the Europeans were established in America, treaty after treaty with the Native Americans was broken or ignored. We never respected their borders.

[Kelvin Mace]

165. Could you explain to me WHY

I shouldn't be offended by you calling me a "stupid idiot"? Could you explain to me how posting a bit of satire tweaking the noses of folks whop views immigration problems in simplistic terms makes me a "stupid idiot"?

Your tone is rather unwarrantedly offensive and provocative.

[Ms. Clio]

172. "Your tone is rather unwarrantedly offensive and provocative"

And not for the first time.

[Deja Q]

26. It's about the money, first and foremost.

[DarkTirade]

30. Yeah, a quarter of me...

wants to deport the other 3/4 of me back to europe. :)

[Starbucks Anarchist]

34. I think I have legal claim to this land.

I'm of Indian descent (American-born, though) -- Columbus was looking for India for spices, but took a wrong turn and ended up in "America."

When he saw the Native Americans, he thought they were Indians, hence the (incorrect) label of Native Americans as Indians.

Since "America" in its present form essentially started in 1492, and since Columbus was really looking for my ancestors, then truly, only I can lay claim to this wonderful land.

Sorry, just had to bring some (attempted) levity into the topic. :D

[JuniperLea]

37. My people met my people at Plymouth Rock

I'm a Mayflower descendant and part American Indian... I get two counts:) And I was born here... three counts?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

187. Touche.

[Bridget Burke]

60. There's no problem with "levity" here....

In fact, the OP is a humorous look at the issue.

But the anti-immigrant crowd just doesn't get it.

[El Fuego]

41. But look what happened to the resident Americans.

Slaughtered, their land raped and stolen, herded onto reservations.

"They took away the whole Cherokee nation
And put us on this reservation.

(sung)
They took away our way of life
Our tomahawk and huntin' knife
And the old teepee we all loved so
They're using now just for a show
They put our papoose in a crib
and took the buck skin from our rib
And they took away our native tongue
and taught their English to our young

Hiya, hiya, ho! Hiya hi, hiya ho!
Hiya, hiya, Hiya ho!

Altho' they changed our ways of old
They'll never change our heart and soul
And tho' I wear a white man's tie
I'll be a red man till I die

All the beads we made by hand
are nowadays made in Japan."

There's a inconvenient truth for ya.

[underpants]

43. Yeah oh YEAH!! well what language did they speak?

How about right around the time of the American Revolution?


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1274198

[Virginia Dare]

64. Yes, another inconvenient truth...

the territory that "we" took from Spain and Mexico in a series of pure naked land grabs.

[Marr]

44. Yes, the Native Americans had no immigration laws.

And that turned out just swell.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

45. but nobody was here. I mean, Columbus DISCOVERED America, right?

[aikoaiko]

47. I think a dictionary is an inconvenient truth for you.

il·le·gal ( P )
1. Prohibited by law.
2. Prohibited by official rules: an illegal pass in football.
3. Unacceptable to or not performable by a computer: an illegal operation.


So what laws or official rules did Christopher Columbus break?

[nolabels]

62. Depends whose dictionary you are reading from

Flat-landers believe Christopher to be a heretic

[aikoaiko]

115. true, very true. nt

[Kelvin Mace]

70. Satire is lost on the clueless

It is the anti-immigrant groups who use the phrase "illegal alien" and such, and who constantly demonize illegal-immigrants (and in some cases legal immigrants) as the unwashed rabble.

I am simply taking the language used and giving it another context.

As to what laws or rules Columbus may have broken, who knows? The indigenous people certainly had possesion of the land, and had lived here thousands of years. But to "civilized", "Christians" this was irrelevant since they didn't worship the "right" God, nor recognize the "right" sovereign.

I can certainly make a case that they violated a very old rule: "What is mine, is mine, and what is thine, is thine, so keep your goddamn hands to yourself."

[aikoaiko]

117. Ok, but its an old. tired analogy.

I was simply pointing out the weakness in the analogy.

[Kelvin Mace]

140. The analogy is apt

As the Right is constantly using inflammatory language and generalizing.

[EFerrari]

71. I hate to break up your comfortable little xenophobic bubble

but before the Europeans invaded this continent, there were organized societies here with all the trappings of culture -- including systems of justice.

:wow:

[jerry611]

98. So securing our border is an act of xenophobia?

lol

We are a sovereign nation. We have a right to fortify our borders to ensure the security of the United States. Every nation has that right.

[Kelvin Mace]

104. Securing your borders

isn't xenophobic, securing your borders with the military while whipping up anti-immigrant hysteria to help yourelf politically however, *is* xenophobic.

[Doctor Venmkan]

126. Why is using the military "xenophobic?"

"securing your borders with the military <snip> however, *is* xenophobic."

Why?

It's not like they're going to be shooting border-jumpers, or even threatening them. Most don't even have guns since they're there for 'administrative' duties, if I heard right....

In my opinion (shared by many others) putting the NG down there was just for show, trying to make it look like The Shrub is trying to secure the borders.

[Kelvin Mace]

131. Because it means

you are taking the dangerous course of transferring a civil function (non-military border security) and giving it to the military. If Canadian start massing on the border with tanks, if Mexicans show up at the border with artillery, then you call the Army. You are ceding civilian control of a civil function to the military and that is VERY bad. Once you start down that path, you soon have ample justification for allowing the military to assume other functions as well.

Border patrol officers are sworn officers, with the power of arrest and the right to use deadly force to protect themselves. Why do we want to bring the military in to do this job instead of properly funding the border patrol in the first place?

[Doctor Venmkan]

163. All very good points...

...however, I still fail to see how calling out the N.G. is xenophobic. Though I do agree that it's neither a good or effective option.

Remember, just as not all of those that support giving illegal aliens a "path to citizenship" want to do away with borders...

...neither are all of us that oppose it and want better control of our borders racist.

[Kelvin Mace]

171. The reason this issue is getting this kind of play

is xenophobia. While immigration IS a problem, it is NOT a crisis. The only people calling for the deployment of the NG are Bush's base. Rational people understand the problem is a CIVIL one, not military.

Since 9/11 Bush and his minions have used this same kind of tactic (create fear of shadowy, dark-skinned people who don't speak our language and use it for political advantage) to usurp the Constitution, established treaties such as the Geneva Conventions, and settled case law.

The Right is now trying to use "border control" and immigration law as a means to ethnically cleanse the country.

[aikoaiko]

114. So lets see the rule or provide a reference to the oral tradition.

or are you just making something up.

[Kelvin Mace]

127. Can you show me a culture

which has an oral tradition of allowing strange people to come their land and rape, kill and enslave them?

I am quite sure that the Spanish would have viewed themselves as quite aggrieved had another power arrived on their shores and began wholesale colonization.

[Bridget Burke]

138. Yes, the Spanish were quite miffed at the Moors.....

In fact, 1492 was the year that the Spanish (1) finally conquered the Moors of Granada (2) began expelling the Jews & (3) sent Columbus on his mission.

[aikoaiko]

141. of course the Spanish would have been aggrieved as the ..

...american indians were and many still are.

As you know, my quibble was with the word illegal. I realize you presented it as satire, but I find the analogy weak.

[treestar]

82. Are you that hung up on officiality?

Better go home and check everything, your credit cards, your car registration, your insurance coverage - make sure everything is in the official language.

There must be some rule you broke somewhere.

[aikoaiko]

119. not really, but the OP used the phrase "illegal" ....

... and it should be examined.

[Kelvin Mace]

125. It was used in the context of

turning the Right's language back upon itself.

[Turn CO Blue]

88. Oh right! The "heathen Injuns" didn't have a code to live by...

Only the sophisticated Europeans could have invented cultural standards and brought in their mighty, mighty LAW and civilization. The natives were begging for some kind or organization to their SAVAGE ways, right? They BEGGED the pilgrims to spread their diseases, force them away from property, to build their fences, to shoot them with their guns, to cheat them in trade with useless beads and baubles, to bring them firewater, to intern them on "reservations". Sure, the natives inhabitants got everything they ever asked for.... huh.

What the hell ever happened to cultural relativism? It should be alive and thriving on DU, of all places, since it is one of the tenets of progressive thought!

Honestly, thank you for reminding me of how American history as we know it has been completely WHITE-washed to fit certain cultural ideals (of imperialism, Divine Right, imminent domain, Rule of Law, Christian "values", dog-eat-dog, cultural Darwinism, etc. etc.)

[aikoaiko]

120. I didn't say the arrival of Europeans was good for the dine.

I was challenging the analogy, but read into my post whatever you wish.

[endarkenment]

123. Oh you are so very ignorant.

"When Columbus and his crew arrived on their second visit to Hispaniola, however, they took captive about two thousand local villagers who had come out to greet them. Cuneo wrote: "When our caravels… where to leave for Spain, we gathered…one thousand six hundred male and female persons of those Indians, and these we embarked in our caravels on February 17, 1495…For those who remained, we let it be known (to the Spaniards who manned the island's fort) in the vicinity that anyone who wanted to take some of them could do so, to the amount desired, which was done."

...

Eventually, life for the Taino became so unbearable that, as Pedro de Cordoba wrote to King Ferdinand in a 1517 letter, "As a result of the sufferings and hard labor they endured, the Indians choose and have chosen suicide. Occasionally a hundred have committed mass suicide. The women, exhausted by labor, have shunned conception and childbirth… Many, when pregnant, have taken something to abort and have aborted. Others after delivery have killed their children with their own hands, so as not to leave them in such oppressive slavery."

Eventually, Columbus and later his brother Bartholomew Columbus who he left in charge of the island, simply resorted to wiping out the Taino altogether. Prior to Columbus' arrival, some scholars place the population of Haiti/Hispaniola (now at 16 million) at around 1.5 to 3 million people. By 1496, it was down to 1.1 million, according to a census done by Bartholomew Columbus. By 1516, the indigenous population was 12,000, and according to Las Casas (who were there) by 1542 fewer than 200 natives were alive. By 1555, every single one was dead."
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1011-27.htm

The laws and customs of the inhabitants of the island that became known as Hispaniola, the Taino people, were violated as they were slaughtered to extermination.

[The Backlash Cometh]

105. 3859304 incidents of deaths from toxins & other related over-population

tragedies later...

[JuniperLea]

254. That is my only argument against opening the borders

And for that I'm labeled a racist. Our infrastructure is on shaky ground right now, today, this very minute. A mass exodus, which an open border begs, would tip the ever precarious balance and send us headlong into chaos.

And I'm a racist for suggesting...

[Cleita]

132. Amen!

:thumbsup:

[Cobalt Violet]

148. And what of Leif Erikson?

[Kelvin Mace]

162. He didn't stay

He was apparently on a tourist visa, but didn't like the food so he left. :)

[proud2BlibKansan]

184. Way to go, Kelvin!!

Such an inconvenient truth it is.

[madmunchie]

217. I suppose that we should be cutting off hands for theft and burn

people at the stake for witchcraft. No marriage problems, just do arranged marriages. Of course, no divorce allowed either. Women shouldn't be allowed to vote and slavery isn't against the law either - - - boy oh boy, this is fun, lets just TOTALLY revert to 500 years ago for everything! Great comparison, what a well thought out intelligent post!

[Kelvin Mace]

235. Could you explain to me how

any of this relates to my graphic? I missed the leap of logic here.

[madmunchie]

236. Doesn't surprise me...going back to 1492 to make a point about 2006

is filled with abundantly flawless logic.

[Kelvin Mace]

252. The point of the post

as I have mentioned several times was to tweak anti-immigrant Wingers on their use of language and to provide and alternate context for their type of comment. I see nothing in this which suggests the leaps of logic you are making, or the sarcasm.

[Deja Q]

240. We can't undo the past, or would you castrate Adam and tie up Eve?

Tying her tubes, I mean?

The line must be drawn somewhere.


Or step on the relevant amoeba or whatever your belief indoctrinates?

[Kelvin Mace]

268. No, you can't "undo" an injury

but you can learn from it, and avoid inflicting similar injuries on others in the future.

[treestar]

264. Halliburton just got a 4 billion contract in Iraq

Yet there are people worried about health care for illegal immigrants.

Does the government spend that much on health care for Americans, let alone illegal immigrants?

[Kelvin Mace]

270. To be fair

I believe we spend quite a bit more than $4 billion on Medicare/Medicaid.

But you are correct that the health care problem in this country is MUCH greater than the immigration problem. In fact, I wouldn't rate immagration in the top 20.