"US BRACES FOR IRAQ'S MY LAI"

[Jeffersons Ghost]

According to a Chicago Sun Times headline:

U.S. braces for Iraq's My Lai

May 28, 2006

BY ROBERT H. REID

BAGHDAD, Iraq -- The U.S. military is getting ready for a major scandal over the alleged slaying of Iraqi civilians by Marines in Haditha -- charges so serious they could threaten President Bush's effort to rally support at home for an increasingly unpopular war.

Although the case has attracted little attention so far in Iraq, it still could inflame hostility to the U.S. presence just as Iraq's new government is getting established, and complicate efforts to quell the insurgency.

Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said the criminal investigation should be completed by next month. A report on the probe will be available then, Pace said Saturday in a visit to Chicago.

A Pentagon official said investigators think Marines committed unprovoked murder in the deaths of about two dozen in November. Regardless of the outcome, top U.S. Marine Gen. Michael Hagee has been sent to Iraq and will be visiting several parts of the United States "to remind all the leaders and to instill in our Marines the fundamental understanding of what Marines do and not do in combat," Pace said.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/iraq/cst-nws-marines28.html

"This is worse than Abu Ghraib"

Murtha says civilian killings hurt the U.S.
The Associated Press

WASHINGTON — The fallout from the killing of Iraqi civilians by Marines could undermine U.S. efforts in Iraq more than the Abu Ghraib prison scandal did, a lawmaker said Sunday.

The shootings in November at Haditha, a city in Anbar province in western Iraq, were covered up, said Rep. John Murtha, a Pennsylvania Democrat.

“Who covered it up? Why did they cover it up? Why did they wait so long?” Murtha said on ABC’s “This Week.” “We don’t know how far it goes. It goes right up the chain of command.”

A bomb rocked a military convoy Nov. 19, killing a Marine. Marines then shot and killed unarmed civilians in a taxi at the scene and went into two homes and shot other people, said Murtha. Yet the deaths were not seriously investigated until March because an early probe was stifled within days of the incident, he said.

“I will not excuse murder, and this is what happened,” Murtha said. “This investigation should have been over two or three weeks afterward and it should have been made public and people should have been held responsible for it.”

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/politics/14691136.htm

[eleny]

1. Batiste going after Rumsfeld on Hardball now

[Jeffersons Ghost]

2. yeah CNN has been talking it up all day

Perhaps if media been talking it up months ago, right after it happened, our troops would be home right now, instead of preparing to become a sacrificial judas-goat.

[malaise]

3. The Iraqi Ambassador to the US

is on CNN now

[Jeffersons Ghost]

7. "ARE HADITHA KILLINGS A PATTERN?"

Blitzer first says it sounds like you're saying these type killings are a pattern and then asks a top Iraq envoy to US, welcomed to his new post by Bush the morning the BIG question... He says they killed his unarmed student cousin in cold blood, without provocation.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

8. It was a powerful interview. He believes that his cousin was killed in

cold blood near Haditha, and had heard reports of Haditha right after it happened.

[deaniac21]

9. If it sacrificial it can't be a Judas goat....

A Judas Goat is a term used to describe a trained goat used at a slaughterhouse and in general animal herding. The Judas goat is trained to associate with sheep or cattle, leading them to a specific destination. In stockyards, a Judas goat will lead sheep to slaughter, while its own life is spared. Judas goats are also used to lead other animals to specific pens and on to trucks. The term Judas Goat is derived from a biblical reference to Judas Iscariot.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

11. I knew the last part... how interesting!

perhaps I should say SCAPEGOAT!

[Jeffersons Ghost]

32. kick

[deaniac21]

44. Well that would be actually using words that mean something.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

47. I'm not at all sure what your words mean deaniac21

will you explain?

[deaniac21]

50. As opposed to sacrificial judas-goat....

[Jeffersons Ghost]

51. yeah! as opposed to that

better?

[Hubert Flottz]

4. Good training for the "BOYS"

Just gettin' tuned up and zeroed in for the shootin' match in Iran!

Gotta' win some more hearts and minds!

Kids do the darnedest things sometimes!

EDIT...You can't put a happy face on the total insanity taking place in Iraq...Are those death squads operating there? Is this part of "Task Force 121?" Negraponte and Boyden's plan in action? Does this go deeper than the normal eye can ever hope to see? Ask yourself this...If things are going so peachy in Iraq...Why is the killing going on as much as it has been the past year. Iraq seems like it's getting worse instead of better.

Before you blow this off as an unhappy fluke, read this...

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/031215fa_fact

[Jeffersons Ghost]

10. I'd say it's getting worse Hubert but it's smoothing out in Afghanistan

right?

[Hubert Flottz]

12. It just causes more HATE!

Bush is very good at creating HATE! That's why I got the feeling in 2000, that the man was PURE EVIL. I could sense it. It was clear to me for some reason, back then. I think it was when he smirked and grinned, as he bragged about his death row execution record, as Governor of Texas, that tipped me off.

Creating HATE is the one thing Bush was EVER good at!

[Jeffersons Ghost]

14. what tipped me off was when his dad said "atheists aren't patriots

I thought, gezz, Thomas Payne was an atheist. Actually Afghanistan is worse than ever with riots and deaths today... Did you see the news? You missed my bait Hubert but you kicked anyhow. thanks

[Hubert Flottz]

16. Yes I saw the story about the riot in Afghanistan.

The watered down version is what I saw I'm sure, since it was on CNN. The government Bush helped create in Afghanistan is a sham democracy too. Their elections are about as rigged as ours and the people over there know it too.

I'm always glad to boost a good thread Mr. Ghost.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

18. what pissed me off was the BIG lie in the CNN story

they linked the increase in opium trade with the Taliban but when Taliban ran the country, opium trade was way down because they're religious fundamentalists. It's bushists rethuglicans that made the deals with war-lords to attain some sense of stability in the region.

I saw video of opium fields... I mean, if we want to stop the opium trade we'd just burn the fields right?

here's what wikipedia online encyclopedia says:

After the fall of the Soviet-backed Democratic Republic of Afghanistan in 1992, Afghanistan was thrown into civil war between competing warlords. The Taliban eventually emerged as a force capable of bringing order to the country. The rise of the Taliban helped the economy by eliminating the payments that warlords demanded from business people; it brought political benefits by reducing factional fighting (although the Taliban fought aggressively against their enemies, their relative hegemony reduced the number of factions) and brought relative stability by imposing a set of norms on a chaotic society. The radical ideology of the Taliban would later alienate many observers who initially considered its emergence as a positive development. Taliban legend has it that in the spring of 1994, upon hearing of the abduction and rape of two girls at a Mujahidin checkpoint in the village of Sang Hesar near Kandahar, local Mullah Omar, a veteran of the Harakat-i Inqilab-i Islami faction of the Mujahidin, gathered thirty other Taliban into a fighting force, rescued the girls and hanged the commander of the Mujahideen. After this incident, Taliban legend goes, the services of these pious religious fighters were in much demand from villagers plagued by unruly Mujahidin, and thus the Taliban were born.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban

[aaronbees]

33. I had the same feeling too...

way back then that Bush was someone altogether different on the neocon scale of evil.

But see, this is all part of the plan -- even events such as this and Abu Ghraib. The more instability and insanity that the U.S. can semi-control the better; it just further creates a hysteria regarding the war and the need to "press on" and some blather like that. It's like the Bush cabal is dropping vile chemicals in a petri dish just to see what will happen. I hate to say it, but I don't know if this will get the sufficient airtime or proper condemnation from the U.S. public at large; they're already tuning Bush out and I wonder if, by extension, they're tuning Iraq out ... no matter what happens. Another tragedy.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

38. it's like they're using OUTRAGE OVERLOAD so much crap and so little

time to discuss it before they try a new form of bushit on us.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

5. Oh, I get it! It's all about bad PR!

How silly of me to think it's about murderers committing atrocities and justice and such.

[Critters2]

6. There, there. Don't be too hard on yourself

I find your naivete refreshing.

[Disturbed]

15. Busholini spoksperson said that Busholini

just found out about this via a reporter. Either this is a lie to provide cover for Busholini or he was actually not informed about this months ago when the Military knew about it. If he was not informed about this what does that portend?

[Jeffersons Ghost]

22. OMG, you mean you still gotta ask? of course busholini is lying

his lips are moving, right?

[TankLV]

13. I read when this first broke, that the KILLERS were those mercenary

butchers that bushco* hired to "augment" our fighters?

THAT was dropped like a hot potato!

[Jeffersons Ghost]

40. no you read about the other incident that was buried more effectively

they can't catch all the irregularities though.

[cyclezealot]

17. Let's be careful and not repeat VietNam's mistakes.

Reason. to this day, Vets think anti war 'liberals,' hate the military. Yes, I do dispise much what the military does. But, lets differeniate. The military is supposedly run by civillians.
We say we support the tropes. And yes, those acussed of committing this crime need come to justice. But, BUsh has extended their tours as many as three times. They are exhaused and overwhealmed for a duty way beyond what humans can endure.
Show, our support for our troops in this immoral duty. It is Bush's vault, with his bring it on attitude. WHen we abhor what horrors Bush has brought on; remember what Bush is asking is too much at this impossible duty.
Let's not let the troops think someone is 'spitting at' some returning villians. Justice yes, but let's weigh that against what they have been called upon to do. Keep our calls for justice balanced as we enter this My Lai stage of this misadventure, that we knew would come.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

19. blabbing about My Lai was no mistake. THAT'S WHAT ENDED THE WAR

Once the outcry got loud enough our troops came home. The only reason this wasn't pushed under the rug is the internet. you will never silence the truth. never.

I will not support "troops in this immoral duty," for spiritual reasons.

[cyclezealot]

20. Jefferson, Never said we should.

Justice is needed yes. Control must be restored of the troops..
Just said, let's not let them think we are spitting at them. They have been asked way too much in an immoral duty. We have said all along ,support our troops , bring them home.
I felt we have been the one's all along to support the troops. Not Bush, as he cuts their vetrans benefits.
As the troops abhorrant behavior becomes known- let's keep our balance and be consistant. 'Support our troops, bring them home.' Balance our condemnation with support for the troops that somehow maintain some sense of sanity.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

21. by the way, I am a Vietnam Vet.

US Navy '72 - '75, (honorable) medical discharge and they can spit all they want, if it ends the needless killing, which is based on profit and lies. I bet our troops wish insurgents were spitting spit instead of lead. 15,000 more Americans were deployed to the fiercest fighting in Iraq to date on this very day.

[cyclezealot]

41. Jefferson.

I was a Viet Protester. Went to the big DC protest, Nixon visited so well demonstrated in by Stone's movie. Proud you did your service in this unnecessary & immoral war. We all have to do our duty as we see fit.
All I think. We can't blame the troops totally, for the immorality of George BUsh. We need demonstrate our support for the troops, as Bush's commands as commander in chief need be revealed as totally immoral and bankrupt. After all, there is much evidence to show Rumsfield and Cheney egged on Abu Grabib.
And now deploying troops for a third tour of duty in a civil war. Such stress should be a part of their military sentencing.
We used to live near Camp Pendleton. THere is much concern about Marine Corp training being so violent, soldiers do not know when enough is enough. Example, there is much domestic violence about Camp Pendleton. There are legal arguments in defense of what we have done to our soldiers.
Ramsey Clark defended Sadam Hussein. My prediction, as offended as he is of Marine Corp violece against these innoncent Iraqi civillians- I'd predict Clark would listen to the arguments of our stressed out soldiers?? I hope he would. Might just reduce their sentences?

[Jeffersons Ghost]

43. the protests at Uof A that I attended while in high school were smaller

I joined the Navy because of the draft. The biggest protest I attanded was after the Jerry Rubin speech on the steps of the old Union Building. I'm proud you did your patriotic duty too, cyclezealot.

[walldude]

23. You know what? I'm getting really tired of this.

I don't give a flying fuck how "overextended, exausted, freaked out or whatever these guys were. There is no excuse for killing an innocent little girl in cold blood. NO EXCUSE! The righties want to make me out to be a bad guy, a traitor, or whatever because I stand against the slaughter of innocent children, no matter who does it, let them. I for one am not going to walk on eggshells so some asshole grunt can put a bullet into a little girl in cold blood, on purpose. Fuck that. You want to say I'm "not supporting the troops" because I feel that way? Fine. I support the troops that don't kill little girls on purpose. Christ, what seperates us from them?

[Jeffersons Ghost]

24. wall dude is your real name Murtha? he makes me proud I was born in PA

did anyone catch his interview on CNN just now?

[walldude]

25. Not Murtha, although I cannot believe that the

neo's and freeps paint him as some traitor. These people are unreal, they guy has done more for their right to be morans than Bush's entire administration put together. But stand against the slaughter of innocent children and you are a traitor. I for one can't fathom how a person could point a gun at an innocent child and pull the trigger. Missed the interview, been without internet for a few days so I'm busy catching up...

[Jeffersons Ghost]

26. let me tell you a true Nam story

In the VA I met a man who would cover his ears and run like hell whenever he saw a child, which puzzled me, so I asked a guy who was there for chronic PTSD nightmares what it was about. My friend said, "One day on guard duty in 'Nam a child came up to some guys at the gate for candy and then exploded killing several of his pals because she was rigged with a bomb. Later, according to my source, he shot another kid who he thought wore a bomb but there was no bomb that day, only a child seeking candy. He's probably at the VA to this very day, hiding from kids.

I don't know why they shot first asked questions later in Iraq but I do know what killing kids does to a person in the long term, even if the kids are insurgents.

[walldude]

27. First, I appreciate your service, my dad was in Korea,

my Grandfather died at Normandy. I proudly display both their flags on my mantle. We also have my wifes father and her brother's flag up there.
I have heard stories of children being used like that. I think though, that I would have to kill myself before I could spend my life with the memory of taking the life of a child. Even if my life was in danger. What a horrible world we live in to even have to contemplate these things.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

28. it's easy for me to agree with you now, with no bullets flying and no fear

but I wasn't at the gate that day in 'Nam and I didn't have to make the choice of whether to shoot a child or let the child kill my pals.

[walldude]

29. LIke I said, it's a fucked up world when you even have to

contemplate this kind of thing. PM'd you. Will be back on tommorow.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

49. yes, it's a sad thing and what's worse is the number of people afraid

to think or talk about the issue.

[coalition_unwilling]

34. They're (Iraqis, whether adult or child) are not "insurgents" -- they

are members of the Resistance. "Insurgent" implies that at some point in a fabled past they were happy with the occupation and then somehow turned against it and surged against it. "Resistance" is what they were and are from March, 2003

[Jeffersons Ghost]

35. good point... i'll keep it in mind thanks

[rman]

45. The biggest mistake was to go there in the first place,

as is the case with Iraq. Other mistakes in Vietnam were to fudge the casualty numbers, covert bombing of Cambodia, and the post Ted Offensive operations of which My Lai is merely the tip of the iceberg.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

48. amen to that rman

[jpevahouse]

30. They got away with it

If I remember correctly no one served time for killing Vietnamese civilians. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think Calley served time for Mei Li. Has anyone here seen the documentary "Winter Soldier"? Sure this will get a lot of press time. If someone walked into peoples homes in the US and killed three or four families every sentence on the news would be prefixed with "monster, he's not human" and like the Washington snipers the death penalty would be assumed, expected. These marines shot unarmed, defenseless families and they might serve ten years and will be out in five. Our attitude about the worth of the lives of foreigners hasn't changed much since Viet Nam.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

53. Cally got three years and a presidential pardon from Nixon

[Tom Joad]

31. Time for US soldiers to consider: Refuse to Fight! Refuse to Kill!

See this thread.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1316940&mesg_id=1316940
Haditha is not an isolated incident, the uniqueness is that it was uncovered.

[rman]

46. USA Today: 8,000 desert during Iraq war

USA Today
8,000 desert during Iraq war
3/7/2006
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-03-07-deserters_x.htm

[cyclezealot]

52. and we wonder why Jane Fonda is lying low.

We need someone to replace her bravery. As long as that new person does not visit caves in Afghanistan.

[banana republican]

36. WRONG SUBJECT LINE: Republicans brace for Iraq My Lai..... n/t

[Jeffersons Ghost]

37. lol, i stand corrected, thanks banana rep

[Jeffersons Ghost]

55. LOL there you go

too funny

[brettdale]

39. Its just gets worse and worse

Has their been one republican who has come out said "Iraq is a total disater and was a mistake"???

Surly one member of the GOP has to take a stand.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

54. bush will, at his trial

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,535839,00.jpg

[symbolman]

42. Called this one the MINUTE I heard about it

Yep, and for those old enough to recall, when Lt Calley started singing the whole "war" turned around.. this is not to denigrate all the protesters and even middle aged folks who fought like hell to get thei sons back, and with a Media who SHOWED us what was happening..

The timing was perfect, and another thing to remember if no one has brought it up, is that there was a Young Officer in charge of the COVERUP for the My Lai Massacree..

His Name was POWELL.

NOW it begins, the beginning of the END..