Da Vinci book 'shows ignorance'

[survivor999]

PARIS, France (Reuters) -- The popularity of The Da Vinci Code is a shocking indication of both mass ignorance and the "voluptuous pleasure" the media take in promoting works with no basis in truth, the Vatican's culture minister says.

Cardinal Paul Poupard, head of the Pontifical Council for Culture, on Monday told Europe 1 radio he had no objection to people seeing the film if they understand it is fiction, but many would watch this "nonsense" and think that it was true.

The film of the best-selling novel, which says Jesus had a child with Mary Magdelene and the Roman Catholic Church hushed this up, debuts at the Cannes Film Festival on Wednesday.

Poupard is the Vatican's highest authority on cultural issues after the Pope.

"This is a shocking and worrying cultural phenomenon that reflects, on the one hand, the ignorance of millions of people and, on the other, the voluptuous pleasure the media take in promoting products that have nothing to do with the truth," the French-born cardinal, 75, told the Paris radio station.

Full story here: http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/Movies/05/15/cardinal.davinci.reut/index.html

[Demeter]

1. Vatican Lectures World On Ignorance

Man bites dog

Dubya's Fish Story

Are you sure this wasn't from the Onion?

Whatever will those priests come up with next? Opus Dei, perhaps?

[survivor999]

3. Funny, huh? :)

I thought so... The Vatican whines that people believe in fiction? That's why the Vatican exists in the first place!!!

[Agnomen]

13. "It has served us well, this myth of Christ" - Pope Leo X

[CatholicEdHead]

136. Misattributed quote

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Pope_Leo_X

Misattributed

* It has served us well, this myth of Christ. (sometimes miquoted as "How profitable this fable of Christ has been to us.")
o Widely quoted without source on the Internet. From a satire by John Bale (1495-1563), The Pageant of the Popes: "For on a time when a cardinall Bembus did move a question out of the Gospell, the Pope gave him a very contemptuouse aunswere saiying: All ages can testifie enough howe profitable that fable of Christe hath ben to us and our companie."

[cantstandbush]

122. Last time I looked The Da Vinci Code was labeled "fiction." Why

all the hysteria? Since when did "fiction" have to make sense or be true or accurate?

[bryant69]

5. I take it you believe the premise of the Da Vinci code to be based on . .

. . historical fact?

Please correct me if I have misread you.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[warrens]

I think he meant that Christians believe things that are even more...

ridiculous and far less supported by historical facts. Just for starters, Jesus having a baby seems more believable than Jesus walking on water.

[bryant69]

42. If you believe in the bible

such belief presumably comes from faith and not from reason.

Beliving that Jesus Christ was simply a man and of no more significance than is a religious difference - I'm sure the Pope has an opinion on that, but it's not something one can prove by reason or by the historical record.

Beliving that an evil organization exists within the catholic church to keep this hushed up is a historical difference - does such an organization exist? That's a question that can be answered with reason and by the historical record.

[warrens]

67. Well, Opus Dei has already got a track record of evil

Why else would Fat Tony, Treasonboy Hanssen, Medal of Freedom Tenet and Novakula be members? Of the same chapter, yet.

[Bridget Burke]

82. Do these guys really belong to Opus Dei?

If so, are you sure that Opus Dei made them "evil"?

Novak converted to Catholicism in 1998--therefore, he could NOT have been a member previously. I seem to recall that he was an evil douchebag long before 1998.

Opus Dei was formed in the 20th century--isn't that a bit late to hide the ancient "secret"?

[Sequoia]

105. But now we are being told he walked on an ice path

But I think it went more like this:

Peter: Wow, Jesus! That's so kewl! How do you walk on the water like that? See any fish by the way?

Jesus: Follow me and I will make you fishers of men. To answer your question Peter I orded these plastic floaty shoes off Ebay.

Peter: I want some of those too!

Jesus: No can do man, I got the last pair.

[insane_cratic_gal]

37. But Da Vinci Code is based off of Holy Blood Holy Grail

Which is not fiction, Although a Hypothesis and a very interesting one, that Jesus did indeed marry and have kids. That premise is explored by Holy Blood Holy Grail, with some interesting revelations. Which some say to be untrue, but feasible. More so then some issues of the bible itself Parting seas, the dead rising, snakes and gardens ribs and mud, incest etc.


One must of course be open to the idea that Christ is just a man, a man of great character but just a man? He was no God become man become God?

One can not also dispute that it was Constantine that erected the Roman Catholic Church? Another factor in the book that holds water.

Da Vinci code may be a work of fiction but it has far more truth then the entire bible. The Bible which is mainly allegory taken literally extreme by religious sects. Now do I believe that Da Vinci's work contains clues? No.. Do I believe there was a secrete cult that protected the Offspring of Mary Magdalene? No. Do I believe that Jesus loved and had sex?
Absolutely, I do. I believe a child could of come of that relation. Do I believe people would hide these important facts? Of course, dead sea scrolls is one example.

I'm not attacking Christianity, it does have a code of behavior that should be exemplified. However, when men have taken just code and used it to control peasants, men and women of power for their power, it becomes something more corrupted.
We all know that Christianity was often wielded as a weapon against other cultures.

Any way it's just my opinion that there are more rational traces of thought in the fictional piece of Da Vinci Code, then the whole of bible.

[bryant69]

41. On what do you base your belief that Crhist hd a child?

The book Holy Blood, Holy Grail?

Bryant

[insane_cratic_gal]

44. Isn't it possible?

I'm only asking you to consider Christ as a man. Is it not possible he had sex, and born a child? If he had wouldn't that diminish his role as the messiah?

Don't you find it odd that Christ never wrote anything down himself of length?

Yes Holy blood, does suggest he had a child but it's still a theory and not proof. Then again, so is the story of christ being born to a virgin. And what about all of those lost chapters men decided to leave out. Enoch for example or the dead sea scrolls?

One can draw some of their own conclusions, my own is that Jesus was merely a man, a powerful loved man but a Gandhi of his era. People followed him, and someone decided to exploit that power for he became a martyr after died. I would say there were those who exploited that power base.

Here is a book I found interesting.. I read last summer it certainly does make one question how they view religion and the world around them.

http://www.frimmin.com/books/historyofgod.html

[bryant69]

59. I can consider it as an intellectual curiousity

But without stronger proof than conjecture I don't know that it has much meaning.

I can not agree that Christ was merely a man - as that, in my mind, defeats the who point to him.

Bryant

[insane_cratic_gal]

63. You'll never have proof either way

That is what Faith is.

You must trust what has been taught to you. I'm not trying to suggest one is naive for having their faith, but merely their faith isn't based on truth but the power structures of say the Catholic Church?
I wish there was an undiluted account of what Christ wanted, or an undiluted account of the bible. But there is not. Each is written to express their views of what they wanted Christ to have wanted or have said or what he believed.

Truth is, like you said it defeats the purpose it defeats the whole point of him. Is it not wrong to view him as a man who bleeds? Did the Catholic Church not also make you give them money to atone for your relatives sins through the practice of indulgences? That is not the embodiment of christ

I believe that others corrupted the truth for the sake of creating a power structure. I believe we are in a new era of corruption. That of the Republicans getting in bed with Christianity is dangerous and a filthily act.

You think Jesus would hate a poor person? Or God would flood a city below sea level due to the amount of sin? Or denounce a human being for being in love with someone of the same sex? Half of Rome and Most of the Arabs would of been condemned to hell for their sexual preference. (Boys were fun after all and girls for babies)
No that prejudice came much later.

No matter, it's merely my opinion anyway I'll admit since the "voters values" issue of 2004 I've become quite cranky of churches and organized religion. I'm jilted!

[bryant69]

64. Well i'm certainly angry about how many Christians have prostituted their

religion in the name of getting power.

But the problem isn't the faith or Christ, but the people who are willing to use Christ to further their own ends.

Christ was both a man and a god in my belief - he had to be half-god in order for the Atonement to happen. I am not catholic, though. Perhaps I should have cleared that up before.

Bryant

[hfojvt]

71. I find the infertility of his supposed line

to be somewhat curious. The young woman in the book is treated as one of very few Meringovians left. Why so few?
Look at some of the people I know historically - Joseph Loomis, George Hull, James Kingsbury, John Grant, and Thomas Upson. They were all born about 1600. After 6 generations the number of their known descendants was 7354, 1644, 595, 930, and 1026.
The lower numbers exist because many of their descendants are not known. Take a typical low number of 1000, and figure that 6 generations is 200 years. Suppose further that Jesus only had one child (because of his early death). By 300 AD that person should have at least 500 descendants. Say that half get married and run the numbers again, using 500 because of increased mortality in those days. By 500 AD there are about 100,000 descendants. By 700 AD there are 25,000,000. Obviously inbreeding, wars and plagues are going to reduce those numbers, but a million does not seem unreasonable, and that is just in 700 years, with another 1200 to go before we get to today. In 1200 years 100,000 people should have at least 10 million descendants, thus making the Princess' "royal blood" kinda common.

[Bridget Burke]

83. The "Bloodline" would be extremely diffuse after 2000 years.

Unless a pretty extreme form of inbreeding had been practiced.

[bobbieinok]

140. Joseph Loomis married Mary White.....I read somewhere that 25%+

of prsent-day Americans are descended from her parents, Robert White and B Algar.

(My ex and our son are descended from 3 of their children, Mary White married Loomis, Elizabeth White married Goodwin (of early Hartford CT), and John White. Genealogy is fun!)

[Euphen]

146. In the Gospel of Mark, the earliest gospel, Jesus is only a man.

He has brothers and sisters, and there's no virgin birth, but there is no mention of a wife or child.

It's not odd that Jesus never wrote anything of himself, since he was almost certainly illiterate.

And what do Enoch or the Dead Sea Scrolls have to do with Jesus?

[Chemical Bill]

68. How about...

the fact that he was a Jew. As a Jew, he was a member of a society that considered it a duty to have a family, for the good of the society. A Jewish friend explained to me that the law of the time said that Jesus had to have been married to preach in the temples, and to be called Rabbi. Not only that, nobody would have listened to him if he wasn't married. Ask any Jew you know.

Bill

[Bridget Burke]

85. But Jesus was not a "regular guy"....

Yes, he visited the Temple as a child. But there's no record that he preached there later on.

"King Jesus" by Robert Graves is my favorite version of the story. The Holy Family fled to Egypt to escape Herod? Why, they moved to Alexandria, where Jesus spent most of his youth. He got involved in various mystical schools active there. Thus, he was distracted from his REAL goal in life...

[JuniperLea]

91. Biblical scholars say he did preach in the temple as an adult

http://www.mcfarland.co.uk/andrew/exhortations/2003-09-28

The first record time Christ preached, he was 12 years old, and he preached to the doctors in the temple. Surely that included the scribes and Pharisees. Christ didn't neglect the scribes and Pharisees.

During his formal ministry Christ preached in various locations. He preached to crowds, he preached to individuals. He preached in the synagogues, he preached in the Temple. Suppose you had an important message, and you wanted everyone to hear it. You can't be everywhere, so you go to the best places for spreading that message. Christ preached in the synagogues and the Temple at least partly because that is where people would have been in a religious frame of mind. They went to those places to think about the things of God. Where do you think the scribes and Pharisees spent their time? The average scribe or Pharisee probably spent more time in the synagogues and Temple than the average fisherman or tax collector. Far from being neglected in Christ's ministry, the scribes and Pharisees were probably exposed to more of him than the average resident of first century Israel.

[Chemical Bill]

113. I beg your pardon.

>Yes, he visited the Temple as a child. But there's no record that he preached there later on.

Matthew 21:23; Mark 12:35; Luke 13:10; John 7:14

Frankly, I don't take it on faith that he wasn't a regular guy. The bible is funny, the first thing in the new testament is his royal ancestry, but they claim he was a carpenter (isn't a carpenter a regular guy?). The gnostic version of his teachings emphasizes that we can all learn to do what Jesus did. Many gnostic books that survive are older than the texts that we have of the bible. The early "christians" put a lot of effort into refuting the gnostic versions, who's to say who is right? The gnostic gospels were lost for centuries, due to the Roman repression of the Jewish rebellions, plus the "christian" repression of the competing stories. We don't have all of the opposing view either, there are texts that are incomplete or missing.

I do agree that he probably learned at the mystery school of Alexandria, but don't see how that would distract from his real goal in life. What do you see that goal as?

Bill

[Bridget Burke]

130. I got the "mystery school of Alexandria" from Robert Graves.

As long as we're discussing novels about JC...

According to Graves, Mary was married in secret to Antipater--heir of the mad King Herod & in danger. Soon after, Herod has Antipater killed & Mary (& her unborn child) seek refuge with Joseph. In this version, Joseph is elderly & wealthy--perhaps a "builder" rather than carpenter. And he knows the plan--to rear the rightful King of the Jews.

In Alexandria, Jesus becomes distracted from his goal & studies the various mysteries. On his return to Judea, his mystic pursuits draw him into the web of the Goddess worshipers. (Remember, this is Robert Graves.) When brought before Pilate, he has a chance to claim his birthright--in fact, Pilate expects him to do so. But Jesus refuses & goes to his death. (Under the sign that Pilate had ordered: "King of the Jews").

Mary Magdalene plays the "Crone" & the sacrifice of Jesus is supposed to strengthen the Old Religion. Irony of ironies--His legend grows & patriarchal Christianity is born.

This is a Very Brief summary of King Jesus. Throughout, Graves shows his profound classical background (well-used in his Claudius books) & his devotion to the Triple Goddess. (Anyone interested in "secret meaning" ought to attempt The White Goddess.)

But it's only a novel.

---------------------------------------

PS: Not all lost (or just under-publicized) Gospels are "Gnostic."

[Chemical Bill]

133. Try Graham Phillips...

"The Virgin Mary Conspiracy" (or "Miriam Conspiracy"). It isn't a novel, it's an investigation. Granted, there is speculation and selection of which "facts" to believe, but it makes a case for just what you describe.

http://www.grahamphillips.net/

Bill

[survivor999]

135. Interesting....

Thanks!

[Jigarotta]

77. DNA from the shroud of Turin

will reveal Jesus' modern day descendant and it will be the Second Coming we all hear about.

I think I'm just kidding.

I find it really odd that the church has put so much effort into squashing women. Mary Magdalene was a 'prostitute' , yah sure, turns out that was not true. Why was that rumour started? Why is a woman's reproductive system and sexuality such a damned threat to the robed penis ones?

Anyway, looking forward to the movie - Ron Howard does good stuff.

[bobbieinok]

139. Holy Blood, Holy Grail....interesting, some truth there

I learned about the attack on the Templars, the origin of the negative view of Friday the 13th, the source of the name DeMolay for the Masonic organization for young men, some info about some royal families in the early middle ages.

HOWVER, the really interesting info, the shocking info in the book is mostly documented in footnotes that essentially say 'We found this in a letter in the archives at ______; when we went back to check the information, the letter had disappeared and the librarians could not find it.' I sure wish I could publish with that kind of documentation.

[JuniperLea]

87. Something so far fetched, well how 'bout Adam and Eve?

"Steve Earle Creepy Jackalope Eye lyrics"

An elaborate tale
So convincingly real
Things can seem so amazing
’til you get up close
And see they’re no big deal
Like the stars in the sky
Or the one on the stage
Just a big ball of gas
And a regular guy
Fresh out of minimum wage

In a jackalope space
On a jackalope high
I’m staring you down
Creepy jackalope eye

Many things in this life
Are not what they appear
Yeah I look like a hare
But if you stop and you stare
I’m related to a deer

I got a jackalope face
I’m a jackalope guy
And I’m staring you down
Creepy jackalope eye

Is it so hard to imagine
Is it so hard to believe
Something so outrageous
Something so far fetched
Well how ’bout adam and eve?

I know you gotta have faith
I know the need to hope
But the truth is always in place
It’s right in front of my face
The mighty jackalope
(yeah)

In a jackalope space
On a jackalope high
I’m staring you down
Creepy jackalope
And I’m staring down
Creepy jackalope
And I’m staring you down
Creepy jackalope eye
Freaky jackalope eye
Creepy jackalope eye
Creepy jackalope eye

[bryant69]

99. Hmmm

"NOW faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." - Hebrews 11:1

[JuniperLea]

104. I used that scripture a lot back in the day

But in reality, there is no evidence.

I've gone from hard core Christian (to the point where I even had my own music ministry) to Agnositc mainly for this reason. No evidence.

I have faith that the sun will come up tomorrow because I have seen it over and over. I also have faith that there will be dozens of televangelists on the TV and radio tomorrow taking Social Security money from seniors, because I have seen it.

I've never seen a healing that couldn't be explained... I've never seen water turned to wine... I've never seen a sea parted... I've never seen a war stopped...

The only thing I have seen with my own eyes that could be construed as Biblical (end times prophecy) is GWB doing evil things in the name of God.

[Raster]

143. heh heh heh

...preachin' to the choir (every pun intended).

[Toots]

2. Arguing religion as truth vs truth

How quaint....

[Cerridwen]

4. Uh, that would be called a work of fiction

The Catholic Church is now afraid of fiction?!

Methinks they doth protest too much.

Why on earth does a work of fiction terrify the Catholic Church and all those "religious" fundies?

This is just too weird for words.

[Nickster]

7. That's what I was thinking too. I'm ignorant because I enjoyed a work

of fiction?? Something that I know is not based on fact?

[MADem]

11. Imagine all the kids who are going to hell for reading Harry Potter? nt

[Nickster]

14. Well, Harry Potter is different, it's teaching kids about Satan and Witch

craft. Those books should be burned! Burned I say! LoL.

[Cerridwen]

35. Yeah, doesn't Rowling know that all witches are like the ones

in Hansel and Gretel? Geez, she's gonna give witches a good name.

[Nickster]

36. Exactly my point! Then the witches win! What kind of world does she want

us to live in??

[Cerridwen]

62. No kidding. What on earth will happen to planet earth if

people think they have alternatives to "fundamentalist, corporate xtianity?"

Yeesh, the mind boggles!

Guess I'd better add this :sarcasm: with this post.

edit to connect dots which post may not have:

if witches are okay,
bible wrong about witches,
xtianity wrong about witches,
what else is xtianity wrong about?
time to look around at options
may be alternatives to xtianity

I hope that makes more sense.

[Cerridwen]

34. Well, in my case, I guess it's the influence of all those

Nancy Drew books I read as a kid.

And Dick, Jane and Spot. And who was the kitty? Ah yes, Puff. The adventures of Dick, Jane, Spot and Puff. "See Spot run."

Geez, maybe we should go after children's fairy tales and Mother Goose next?

Amazing, simply amazing.

[acmavm]

6. The Vatican is the one not using its collective intellect. The

damn book is a work of fiction. They need to get that absolutely straight.

And all they're huffing and puffing is the best publicity for the book that could possibly be had.

[MADem]

8. Wow, the author must be thrilled!!!

Yet another guy in a red dress steps up to scream about this book!!! You have to wonder if they don't have a secret deal for a percentage of the net--it's better than stamping "Banned In Boston!" across the marquee!

I thought the dire pronouncements from the Catholic Film Office kinda lost their spunk after Last Temptation of Christ, but one never knows, I guess.

Funny, back in the dark ages, if the priest said "Don't see it!" on Sunday, half the parish would turn out at the local movie theater the following Friday. Off to confession on Saturday, good to go once again on Sunday!

Those priests were like the Ebert and Roper's of their day!

[robbedvoter]

9. Oh, no! They put some fiction in my fiction!

Relax, poupard! Fans do that to "verses' all the time. It's called fanfiction - and sometimes it stays within "the cannon" , sometimes it strays (see "slash"). One thing is for sure: only fans of said "verse" are likely to read fanfiction!

[MadHound]

10. I find it greatly amusing the lengths to which churches

And other groups are going to prove that the DaVinci Code is *gasp* fiction. All of last week and all of the upcoming one, the so called "educational channels", History Channel, Discovery Channel, etc. are running all of these blatant propaganda pieces opining endlessly that the DaVinci Code really, truly is fiction. Churches throughout the country have been preaching special sermons about how the DaVinci Code is fiction. Special church classes and seminars are being held throughout this upcoming week to prove to the faithful that the DaVinci Code is fiction. And the one question I'd like to ask all of them would be; "Is your faith so shaky that you feel the need to endlessly prove that a fictional book is *gasp* fiction?"

[survivor999]

17. Well, they've gotta

keep fiction out of religion. Or before they know it, people will start believing in Superman and who knows what other wacky things... :sarcasm:

[lildreamer316]

96. I find it very telling.

Gee. Wonder why they are so scared of a fictional story.

Let me back up a bit:

Bought the book; read it; found it facinating. Bought a couple of the books it drew from ( Holy Blood, Holy Grail; etc.). Read them with interest.
Watched whilst the authors of that book sued him.
Took everything with a grain of salt; realized this could easily all be bullshit.
Relegated the discussion and the movie to the "great for thoughtful discussions; not necessarily earth-shattering verifiable news" bin.
Then, all of a sudden; new and PROLIFIC attacks against Dan Brown's premise come out. Not just a few; but day after day after day.
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.........

Think I'll go reconsider my position now.

[bridgit]

12. i'm catholic & i'm going to see it anyway; i like 'the thin man' &...

charlie chan too :-)

[WinkyDink]

15. But what if the basic premise of the Magdeline's arrival in France

is NOT fiction? Brown's primary sources claim to be factual.
I couldn't care less what riles up the Church of the Inquisition, but would they fear fiction?

[Bridget Burke]

47. If Da Vinci Code is Fiction, why are you looking for Fact?

Queen of the Gypsies
by China Galland

The Camargue in the South of France is a huge delta where the Rhone River empties into the Mediterranean. After a train ride from Switzerland, I am driving through Arles, through the honeyed light of southern France, through field after field of enormous, heady sunflowers, down to the church of Les-Saintes-Maries-de-la-Mer.

The Black Mary that I was told to find here turned out not to be Mary but St. Sara. Father Morel, the pastor tells me that the Gypsies call her Sara-la-Kali, though no one knows why. “It is a mystery.”

In the language of the Gypsies, the word Kali means both “gypsy woman” and “the black one,” he explains. It is Sara-Kali, Queen of the Gypsies, who resides in the crypt of this ancient church by the sea.

Each year in late May, Gypsies from all over Europe gather here to venerate St. Sara. “The poor are honored, the rejected welcomed, and the unloved comforted” at this feast, I read in a booklet Father Morel gives me. In a grand procession culminating in days of praying and feasting, they dress the statue in layers of clothes and jewels and take her down to the sea.

http://commongroundmag.com/2004/cg3109/journeys3109.html

Saint Sarah is the important one who landed on that shore. The Marys accompanied her. Stories differ as to "which" Marys. That common name led to the confusion involving The Magdalene, the Sister of Lazarus & Martha, the unnamed prostitute & the possessed woman that Jesus cured.

Many of the Black Madonnas of Europe go back before Christianity. Isis, for example, was widely worshiped in the Roman Empire. And what might "Sara-la-Kali" mean?

Dan Brown's names Margaret Starbird as his "source" for the Magdalene's arrival in the South of France. Starbird is a theologian who has her opinions--but no special claim to "facts."

[ldf]

124. "basic premise of the Magdeline's arrival in France"

but the real question is, upon arriving, what role did she play?

wife
girlfriend
faghag

those seem like the only three choices.

:-)

[Bridget Burke]

131. Is this an alternate version of the Triple Goddess---

Invented by Robert Graves for his own obscure poetical reasons & now ensconced in the doctrines of Orthodox Neo-Paganism?

Girlfriend, Wife, Faghag instead of Maiden, Mother, Crone? One power of Myth & Legend is the ability to change with the times.

No matter what the Magdalene may have done in her life--she's only important because of Whom she may have done!

[Chimichurri]

16. The Vatican should stop putting so much credence in a book of FICTION.

How sad for them that a story book could shake it's will in such a profound way.

[AngryOldDem]

38. Exactly....

Hmmm...there must be SOME truth to it, eh?

If it's such a crock, isn't it the best thing to just IGNORE it?

And...what if it IS true? Does that invalidate Jesus's teachings or his work? Or does it invalidate the institutional MYTHS that has been built up around his teachings and work?

As a Catholic who enjoyed DaVinci, I find this whole cassock-in-a-wad show highly entertaining. Always like to see the Vatican squirm.

[goforit]

118. They obviously see the truth in it. Anger should be directed to Leonardo

DiVinci and not Dan Brown.

The "last supper" and the "Madonna on the rocks" are two
very controversial paintings that clearly question the
propaganda of the Roman Catholic Church.

[malaise]

18. And what truths exist in religion period?

Looks like the battle of the myths to me. From an athiest's perspective this debate is hysterically funny.

[BrownOak]

81. I was more of an agnostic...

...until I experienced something that was too much to be just a string of coincidences. But even after all of that I have no time for religion because it is just way to clear that there's too much anger and hatred in there even with all the good that is also done.

The whole need for dogma and story is to convince people to buy into the parts of your message that are counter intuitive to the real ideal it should all stand for. If you think about it, you could boil it all down into a simple thought; love, respect, and help each other. That's a helluva quicker read than the Bible or any of the other books and it pretty much covers the same concept.

But you see, the problem was that there were lots, and still aren't lots, of people who don't really want to love, respect, and help each other. So for those people you need something to motivate them and the idea of a more fulfilled life wasn't really selling well. So that's how we ended up with this concept of hell. Be good now or you won't like later even just a little bit. I do the same thing with my 4-year-old. If you don't eat your dinner you don't get dessert.

But there were still problems because the idea of love, respect, and help each other seemed overly broad. "What? You mean I have to love, respect, and help someone even if he's a queer? Get me some sort or exception to that. While you're at it, get me exceptions for anyone who calls god by a different name, anyone who doesn't think like me, and anyone who doesn't look like me. And get me something to control my women too."

Then there was that whole push for more people and more power that these guys got swept up in. Which is why, in some South American jungle there's some poor, barefoot bastard with 15 kids that he can't feed and a 16th on the way all because somewhere in time one of his ancestors bumped into someone sent from a guy wearing a funny hat in Rome with the message that if you put on that condom you're heading to hell without any dessert.

[malaise]

98. I agree with you re human decency

but I have no gods and don't need them. Civilized human beings do on to others as they would have others do to them. It's uncomplicated - ask the Chinese author but many people are full of hate. And yes people are really gullible and malleable as well.

Edit - gr

[BrownOak]

110. I'm fine with that

Like I said, I was pretty close to where you are until something life-changing touched me. I can't explain why I feel that way about it nor would I expect it to be something that anyone but me would understand or recognize since what happened was for me and not anyone else.

But the odd thing is, my beliefs haven't changed since before that time, other than the feeling that there is something other than just us. The fact that you don't believe in a god nor feel you need one doesn't matter any more than I do believe in something. Whether we call it human decency, civilized living, spirituality, or religion it really doesn't matter. It's not the box, it's what you do with what's inside.

[malaise]

114. Agreed n/t

[TreasonousBastard]

19. Fascinating that the bashing of the Vatican ignores...

the rather large number of people who believe the book is on to something.

The Catholic Church may or may not be bullshit, but the book is definitely bullshit.

And I'm not sure I have a problem with anyone, including the Church, calling it what it is.

[MADem]

23. A work of fiction??

Fine, they've pointed out what they aver are the discrepancies. But even the casual observer would have to say that they protest WAAAAAY too much. How many times do they have to beat the drum? ENOUGH, already!

Hell, they didn't get this excited since LAST TEMPTATION OF CHRIST...and we saw how well that worked out for them! People who had no interest in seeing the thing were lined up around the block, simply because someone told them NOT to see it.

Is it the Christ business, or the OPUS DEI business, that has their cassocks in a twist, ya gotta wonder?

[FlaGranny]

92. I don't know whether the book

is onto something or not, but I find it a lot more probable than the New Testament. Nevertheless, is is just a tale told by gathering information from writings which were excluded from the bible, but which are contemporary to those stories, for one reason or another. A small group of men with their own agenda decided what to include in the bible. They certainly chose the most fantastic tales to include.

[Bridget Burke]

20. The Cardinal isn't asking for a boycott....

"If it is clear this has nothing to do with truth and it amuses you to go see it, why not?" he said when asked if moviegoers should boycott the film starring Tom Hanks and Audrey Tautou.

In the past several weeks Vatican cardinals have urged everything from a full-blown boycott of the film by Catholics to legal action against both the novel and the film.

Poupard did not back those stands but expressed concern about the effects it could have on the ordinary Catholics.

"What I'm concerned about is that decent people who do not have the proper religious education will take this nonsense for the real thing," said the cardinal, who has headed the Pontifical Council for Culture since 1988.

The book was chosen by Those Fearsome Folks Who Read One Book Per Year. You know, the ones who MUST recount every plot detail at every gathering. The ones who never read Holy Blood, Holy Grail. The ones who've never read any myth, legend, history, psychology, anthropology or comparative religion. Let's hope some of those folks will be persuaded to dig a little deeper into the topic.

[tocqueville]

21. the Da Vinci Code is NOT based on facts

despite what the author pretends in many places. I heard the interview with the Cardinal this morning and he POINTED out that if the book had been presented as PURE fiction, there hadn't been any problems from the Church.

Replacing fiction with fiction is OK, but pretending that fiction is truth is another story. Of course the Gospels can be taken as fiction but they still have a little historical credibility, which the Da Vinci code hasn't. And in many places it's an outright forgery or at least very poor research, like the story of the Priory of Sion, which was debunked before the book came out.

[MADem]

24. There's only one author

...and he says the book is a work of fiction. http://www.danbrown.com/novels/davinci_code/faqs.html

[tocqueville]

33. spelling mistake, sorry... but about the "fiction"

Does Dan Brown believe the facts?

Dan Brown was interviewed by Matt Lauer on NBC’s Today Show, who asked, “How much of this is based on reality in terms of things that actually occurred?”

Brown responded, “Absolutely all of it. Obviously Robert Langdon is fictional, but all of the art, architecture, secret rituals, secret societies—all of that is historical fact.<2>.“

The Book is presented as a novel; therefore, Brown has no footnotes to question his claims.
The “Fact” statement allows the reader to assume the “Facts” in the book are true except for the fictional story line.
The reader then gives consent to these “Facts” allowing false claims about history, Jesus and Christianity to be weaved into the story

http://www.debunkingdavinci.com/

the book opens with a "fact page". The roblem is that the "facts" are mostly nothing else than BS.

[MADem]

55. Things that actually occurred?

Well, that's an easy question!!! Things that actually occurred ARE facts. DaVinci painted the painting. The Louvre has the cute pyramid. The SmartCar is a helluva car. Opus Dei exists, and mortification is part of their culture.

And he mentions four specific areas of fact: art, architecture, secret rituals, secret societies.

However, everything that isn't fact in the book is fiction. The hero didn't exist; neither did any of the other main characters.

Read the question again. You're assuming, based on your perspective, that some things that you disagree with are "fact." He's not saying that, though.

It's sorta like Forrest Gump, or any Danielle Steele or Sidney Sheldon book you see people reading on the beach in summer...the great historical novel. Hell, Sherman burned Atlanta in Gone With the Wind, but I am not convinced that Rhett Butler told Scarlett he didn't give a damn in real life.

Have you ever seen that TV show, JAG?? Let me tell you, that thing is a complete load of shit. There's a mistake a minute in it, from placement of ribbons, to terms of use, to uniform wear, to military courtesies and procedures, and on and on--it bears NO resemblance to genuine service in the Navy. That's why I didn't become a regular viewer. But I just didn't find it important enough to catalogue the many errors of the program. After two shows, I decided it sucked, and voted with my remote.

And if people like it, they should ENJOY...because, after all, it's FICTION. Just as people who don't like the subject matter of DaVinci, or the perspective, should vote with their wallets and not buy the book or see the movie.

[tocqueville]

119. Did you read my answer ?

"Dan Brown was interviewed by Matt Lauer on NBC’s Today Show, who asked, “How much of this is based on reality in terms of things that actually occurred?”

Brown responded, “Absolutely all of it. Obviously Robert Langdon is fictional, but all of the art, architecture, secret rituals, secret societies—all of that is historical fact.<2>.“

The Book is presented as a novel; therefore, Brown has no footnotes to question his claims.
The “Fact” statement allows the reader to assume the “Facts” in the book are true except for the fictional story line. The reader then gives consent to these “Facts” allowing false claims about history, Jesus and Christianity to be weaved into the story"

the problem is what Dan Brown depicts as "facts" aren't. It's not the question of Da Vinci painting Mona Lisa, it's the location of churches, the significance given to artifacts when it's obvious and common knowledge that those artifacts have another function or don't date from the period they are supposed to be, and most of all the secret societies (except Opus Dei), specially the basic plot round the Priory of Sion.

I repeat :

“Absolutely all of it. Obviously Robert Langdon is fictional, but all of the art, architecture, secret rituals, secret societies—all of that is historical fact."

This is a lie and has been debunked in detail by historians from many different countries. If Dan Brown had said "it's all fiction even if you can find the actual places on the map", the story had been different and probably not a best-seller. Dan Brown is a cheat.

[MADem]

120. Did you read Dan Brown's?

Absolutely all of the THINGS THAT ACTUALLY OCCURRED. The things that actually occured are, per his words, once again, the ART, ARCHITECTURE, SECRET RITUALS and SOCIETIES.

Come on. Read the question again. “How much of this is based on reality in terms of things that actually occurred?”

Now apply that question to GONE WITH THE WIND. Yep, there was a Civil War, yep, Sherman did march through Georgia like crap through a goose, yep, slavery existed. But there was no Rhett, no Mammy, no Scarlett, no dress made of curtains, no kid who fell off a horse and died, and no "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn."

Reread his answer in the context of the question.

You, based on your own bias, are making ASSUMPTIONS about what you believe the author thinks "actually occurred." But all he is talking about is four rather specific things.

For all you know, he puts the things you object to, and you assume that he thinks are things that occurred, in the same category as Rhett and Scarlett's kid falling off a horse.

If he meant to say Jesus banged MM and they had kids, why didn't he include that in his spiel on art, architecture, and so on??? After all, he's a writer, he knows how to use words.

Again, it is FICTION. Don't read the book, don't see the film, if it bothers you so terribly. I enjoyed it, and recommend it to my fiction-loving friends.

[tocqueville]

123. I have read the book and probably will see the movie

it's entertaining

what you seem not to understand that there is a major difference between ASSERTING that the background elements you make your book of are FACTS (as he does in his statement and in the fact page) when they aren't. You cannot compare with "Gone with the Wind". Because if it's perfectly true that if there wasn't a Scarlett etc.. there still WAS a Sherman and a Georgia.

The difference with Brown is that he says that "this secret organisation existed since 1099" when it didn't and is a known fact, that this church is on the same meridian than this one when it isn't, etc... I could make a long list, go to some debunking sites and you'll find them.

It's like rewriting "Gone with the Wind" but saying that in reality (changed by the awful Yankees rewriting history) Sherman was a confederate, but had a private agenda, therefore the carnage.

Brown claims that the background to his book is HISTORICAL. Real history. It isn't. And I'm not talking about exegesis (translation of the Gospels), not claiming that Jesus had children etc... that's old historical folklore, but putting that into an actual historical context as if it was common knowledge and "true".

Tomorrow I can write a book saying that the US is a confederation of states in Africa. It's OK as fiction. But if I pretend that Bush is black and that it is historical science, I am a liar.

And it's exactly what Brownie does...

[MADem]

125. No, I meant his REPLY to the actual QUESTION posed

Here ya go, one more time:
http://www.danbrown.com/novels/davinci_code/faqs.html
HOW MUCH OF THIS NOVEL IS TRUE?
The Da Vinci Code is a novel and therefore a work of fiction. While the book's characters and their actions are obviously not real, the artwork, architecture, documents, and secret rituals depicted in this novel all exist (for example, Leonardo Da Vinci's paintings, the Gnostic Gospels, Hieros Gamos, etc.). These real elements are interpreted and debated by fictional characters. While it is my belief that some of the theories discussed by these characters may have merit, each individual reader must explore these characters' viewpoints and come to his or her own interpretations. My hope in writing this novel was that the story would serve as a catalyst and a springboard for people to discuss the important topics of faith, religion, and history.

BUT DOESN'T THE NOVEL'S "FACT" PAGE CLAIM THAT EVERY SINGLE WORD IN THIS NOVEL IS HISTORICAL FACT?
If you read the "FACT" page, you will see it clearly states that the documents, rituals, organization, artwork, and architecture in the novel all exist. The "FACT" page makes no statement whatsoever about any of the ancient theories discussed by fictional characters. Interpreting those ideas is left to the reader.

I don't see how the guy can be ANY CLEARER. Ancient theories, discussed by FICTIONAL characters.

As for Black Bush, Chappelle has already done that! You could get sued, like the HBHG guys did to Dan Brown....

[tocqueville]

127. OK once for all

"clearly states that the documents, rituals, organization, artwork, and architecture in the novel all exist."

they either DON'T or IN THE BEST CASE are twisted beyond recognition, but are still PRESENTED as accurate facts. Check for yourself, if you don't believe me. It's not the discussion of "ancient theories" : I can spin on the pyramids being built by aliens, but not allowed to say that the pyramids are actually located in Alaska AS A FACT, because it suits my book. At least I can let them stay in Egypt. That's exactly where the imposture is.

a little example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticisms_of_the_Da_Vinci_Code)

France

King Dagobert
When asked if she has ever heard about the Frankish king Dagobert, Sophie Neuveu replies she vaguely remembers that she heard this name in a history lesson.
Her answer is quite surprising, because the "good king Dagobert" is the hero of a well-known children's song ("Le bon roi Dagobert/Qui a mis sa culotte à l'envers").


The Last Temptation of Christ
Teabing claims that the French government banned the film version of The Last Temptation of Christ. In fact, only the shooting of the film was banned.


Characters' names
One of the characters is named Bezu Fache. Bezu is an unusual given name for a Frenchman (as one can see in this website, nobody was named "Bezu" in France in the entire twentieth century ). "Bezu", however, happens to be the nickname of a French comic actor.


French language
The novel often uses incoherent, incorrect or non-fluent French, such as the phrase "My name is..." is written as "Mon nom est..." rather than the correct "Je m'appelle", and other similar phrases.

A reference to French-speaking police referring to Fache's picture of himself and the Pope as "the papal bull" is inconsistent because the pun works only in English, not in French.

The operator of a taxi company calls the "Voiture cinq-six-trois" ("Car five-six-three"). The French language does not split numbers like this. It would have been more correct to write "Voiture cinq cents vingt-trois" ("Car five hundreds and twenty-six").


Paris
Several claims about the Church of Saint-Sulpice in Paris (<8>) are disputed. While there is a brass line running north-south through the church, it is not a part of the Paris Meridian, which passes about 100 meters (yards) east of it. The line is instead more of a gnomon or sundial/calendar, meant to mark the solstice and equinoxes. Further, there is no evidence that there was ever a temple of Isis on the site. This note has been on display in the church: "Contrary to fanciful allegations in a recent best-selling novel, this is not a vestige of a pagan temple. No such temple ever existed in this place. It was never called a Rose-Line. It does not coincide with the meridian traced through the middle of the Paris Observatory which serves as a reference for maps where longitudes are measured in degrees East or West of Paris. Please also note that the letters P and S in the small round windows at both ends of the transept refer to Peter and Sulpice, the patron saints of the church, and not an imaginary Priory of Sion." (Source: UK Channel 4 programme Tony Robinson's The Real Da Vinci Code, first broadcast 3 Feb 2005)

Sophie and Langdon go to Saint Lazare's station so that the police believe they went to Lille. The trains for Lille do not leave from the Gare Saint-Lazare but from the (nearby) Gare du Nord.

The reference to Paris having been founded by the Merovingians (Chapter 55) is false; in fact, the city was settled by Gauls by the 3rd Century BC. The Romans, who knew it as Lutetia, captured it in 52 BC under Julius Caesar, and left substantial ruins in the city, including an amphitheater and public baths. The Merovingians did not rule in France until the 6th century AD, by which time Paris was at least 800 years old.

The book states that at the explicit demand of French President François Mitterrand, the Louvre Pyramid in Paris was constructed with 666 panes of glass. According to GlassWeb, the pyramid contains 603 diamond-shaped and 70 triangular panes of glass, totalling 673.


Miscellaneous
French police officers use imperial measurements, instead of metric.


European geography
The book's storyline that the "Albino Monk" was arrested in France, imprisoned in Andorra and escaped to Spain, demonstrates the lack of basic research that would be gleaned from a quick glance at a map or tourist guide. It is improbable that someone arrested along the French coast would be imprisoned in another country (in this case Andorra which is a different jurisdiction and several hundred kilometers away up in the Pyrenean mountains).

Later in the book, Silas escapes from the prison due to a strong earthquake (although Andorra is not a particularly seismically active region), takes a train and travels for 3 days until he reaches "a village" in which a missionary-bishop (Aringarosa) gives him refuge. The village turns out to be Oviedo, in which Silas lives for a few years and helps Aringarosa to build a new church. This is inaccurate because the actual Oviedo is a relatively rich city of around 200,000 inhabitants, and one of the economic, industrial and cultural centers of Asturias, in northern Spain.

Escaping from Temple Church, Langdon and Neveu want to go to King's College and go to Temple tube station where they have to wait for a train for another station. Temple is the nearest tube station to King's College.

At the start of chapter 104 (Rosslyn Chapel), Brown states "The chapel's geographic coordinates fall precisely on the north-south meridian that runs through Glastonbury". This statement is incorrect: Rosslyn Chapel lies on longitude 3:07:13 west and Glastonbury Tor 2:42:05 west. Brown appears to have confused geographic north with magnetic north. Much significance has been placed on a statement that lodestones placed at each location will point at each other. Rosslyn Chapel currently lies within 1 degree of magnetic north of Glastonbury (the magnetic pole moves over time). However, with this level of accuracy, Rosslyn Chapel could lie anywhere between Glasgow and Edinburgh, which are 74 km (46 miles) apart, and the statement would still hold.


Astronomy
Venus is depicted as visible in the east shortly after sunset (Chapter 105), which is an astronomical impossibility. This was corrected to "west" in some later editions, such as the 28th printing of the British paperback, ISBN 0552149519 and apparently current printings of the US hardback. <9>.

Brown characterized the cycle of Venus as "trac a perfect pentacle across the ecliptic sky every four years", but Venus completes five cycles in eight years<10> <11>, a fact well-known to the ancient Greeks and Mayans. This was changed to "eight years" in some later editions such as the British paperback and at least the April 2003 printing of the US hardback <12>.


Technology and engineering
Sophie Neveu claims her SmartCar will do 100 kilometres per litre of fuel (equivalent to 282 miles per Imperial gallon), although the fuel consumption figures in France are given in terms of litres per 100 kilometers, i.e. the fuel needed to go a specified distance rather than the distance per unit of fuel, and Sophie would have used that or, allowing for Langdon's nationality, miles per US or Imperial gallon. In fact, the fuel economy of the most frugal Smart ForTwo is only slightly higher than most four-seater superminis at around 50-60mpg. Also, at the time the book was published, the SmartCar was equipped with a six speed sequential gearbox, not a manual transmission as described in the novel.

The Beechcraft Baron 58 is referred to as a turboprop. In fact, this aircraft is powered by two 300hp Continental piston engines.

Brown describes the GPS tracking button that Fache slips into Langdon's pocket in the Louvre as beaming its position up to the GPS satellite network. This is the reverse of how GPS actually works (ie, the locator receives signals from the satellites and calculates its position). However, GPS_tracking is not a fabrication and is used for many applications including locating tagged animals and E911 functionality in cell phones.

Whenever a character is required to move data from one computer to another, Brown describes this as "uploading". He does this even when someone is copying from a large server to a laptop (i.e, downloading).


Miscellaneous
The allegation that "the Church burned at the stake five million women" as witches has been a problem for many critics because data does not exist to permit an estimate. Reports have ranged from between the extremely high figures of 9 million and extremely low figures of mere hundreds, both of which have been vigorously challenged. More considered estimates range between 40,000 and 60,000 (of which 20 percent were men) mostly carried out by secular courts, and not by the Church. Witch burnings were much more prevalent in later Protestant denominations.


this above (an there is much more, I won't even go into the theological dispute) shows, that Brownies research is BS and that the claim "documents, rituals, organization, artwork, and architecture in the novel all exist" is either false or misrepresented to such a level that it has little to do with the originals.

You can always claim that you saw Elvis at Walmart as a FACT. Who knows, maybe you are right. But in reality, the chances are very slim. But books about Elvis sell and books on Christian conspiracies too.

PS:

when you surf the debunking on Google, you come mostly on religious sites. That's why I didn't quote from those, despite the fact that they might be right and are in many cases. That's very typical for US debate that the religious takes over. But Europeans (and not only French) got pissed at Brownie because he distorted their HISTORICAL patrimony with great disrespect. I don't dare to imagine what result would have been if a French author had written a conspiracy book about the US and placed all the patriotic shrines in the wrong places like the Alamo in Utah, still claiming it was "fact". We'd probably had already been nuked...

[MADem]

128. You didn't read the Q and A I quoted. You didn't even READ it.

BUT DOESN'T THE NOVEL'S "FACT" PAGE CLAIM THAT EVERY SINGLE WORD IN THIS NOVEL IS HISTORICAL FACT?
If you read the "FACT" page, you will see it clearly states that the documents, rituals, organization, artwork, and architecture in the novel all

exist.The "FACT" page makes no statement whatsoever about any of the ancient theories discussed by fictional characters. Interpreting those ideas is left to the reader.

Look, the above are DAN BROWN's WORDS...I don't know what else I can tell you, you're fixated on the idea that he is saying something he isn't. He says the items he lists EXIST, he does not claim that they are all presented in precise geographic position, he doesn't claim his representations of them are precisely accurate, and he doesn't say shit about how he described the GPS one way or another--that's whatcha call artistic license. His french sucks--SO WHAT? It's a STORY, not a documentary!!!!

You seem obsessed about it. All the nitpicking doesn't matter to the pleasure reader. It's FICTION. It's like griping about what shade of uniform the guys on Star Trek wore--is it light blue, or pale blue? Or what Elvis had on in the Walmart, for that matter...It's FICTION!!!!!!

I give up. People who focus on the discrepancies in this book and film do more to advance the book/movie than any five thousand publicists could. People aren't gonna stay away because Dan Brown's French ain't that good....or his description of the tube station the hero runs to is wrong. I mean, come on....what do you want, people to UNREAD it????

[bobbieinok]

142. absolutely great

'I don't dare to imagine what result would have been if a French author had written a conspiracy book about the US and placed all the patriotic shrines in the wrong places like the Alamo in Utah, still claiming it was "fact". We'd probably had already been nuked... '

[MadHound]

25. Well, Priory of Sion aside

The DaVinci Code and the Bible appear to be based on about the same amount of fact.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

26. The book is being sold as a work of fiction...what else do you want?...

There have been countless authors over the centuries that have written fiction as if the settings and context were factual in nature. Why is it necessary for anyone to take shots at Brown for doing the exact same thing?

How does one produce a work of fiction and find themselves accused of "forgery"? That comment it totally laughable, IMHO.

[tocqueville]

40. Heck of a job, Brownie

there is a a "fact page" that's the problem

the basic "fact" "the Priory of Sion" which is the base of the plot is presented as a "fact" and it isn't. There are two possibilities : or Brown knew it was a hoax and you have a new forgery, or he didn't and his claim of meticulous research is preposterous...

[WinkyDink]

28. Brown calls his book fiction, a novel. Don't blame him or it for others'

MISrepresentation.

Gee, you'd think he'd written a book about fictional priestly pedophilia.

[AnnInLa]

22. They really think people are too stupid

to recognize fiction? Oh wait....since the beginning of the Catholic Church, they have depended on the ignorance of the faithful for its survival.

I blame bush.

[tocqueville]

27. 73% of Americans believe that Jesus ressuscited and went to heaven

whatever confession they are from. So much for not believing in fiction...

[Arugula Latte]

116. It's no wonder Americans will swallow just about any "feel good" story

that comes down the pike -- Bush is great! USA can do no wrong! Jesus will come back! :eyes:

[RethugAssKicker]

31. Unbelievable.. isn't it???

[reichstag911]

39. Blame bush???

But...but...it's all Clinton's fault! Why do you hate Amurrica?

[Connie_Corleone]

29. For those who haven't read the book...

The first page is labeled FACT. What's written as fact is about the Priory of Sion. The Priory of Sion is a HOAX. So even though the book is fiction, he writes the first page stating it's fact which is wrong.

Not to mention some other "historical" points made in the book are dead wrong.

So yes, the crime drama itself is fiction, but his historical information is bullshit as well.

A good page turner and should make a good movie.

[jane_pippin]

30. I still can't get over all this uproar over a thriller.

A mediocre thriller at that.
(Yes, I've read it. I thought it was a serviceable thriller in that it was a page turner, but certainly no masterpiece by any stretch of the imagination. Which is fine. It is what it is.)

If anything its popularity shows that people want to read something minimally interesting (at least), that's quick to read, leaves them with something to think about, (people like to use their imaginations from time to time! About Jesus, even! Shocking, I know!), and lets them discuss it with others who have read it. Which is apparently everyone on the planet thanks to the never-ending moaning over the "controversy."

Oh well. Dan Brown, publishers, bookstores, and movie theaters rejoice. (Then go roll around in your piles of money.)

Also, I love the irony of the Church telling people that they need to understand it's fiction because god forbid people get roped into believing in "nonsense." Like, there's a little man in the sky who cares if we have sex before marriage or if we use condoms or not while doing it. Ok. Sure.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

32. For every article attacking Brown's book, he gains sales he....

...might not otherwise have had.

I wonder if Brown cut a deal with the Vatican to pay the Vatican a certain percentage of the gross sales in return for the Vatican attacking his book, building controversy, and driving sales?

The Vatican initially attacked Mel Gibson's movie, "Passion", too...and sales for that movie shot out through the roof.

[PATRICK]

43. There have been Catholic occult movies

since the seventies at least. Most occult movies in fact have a Reformation fascination with mystical trappings, satanism and cabalistic, conspiratorial ritual. The fact that this the summer's blockbuster for the American MSM is the present cause of "alarm" when the response should be more one of general contempt
than indignation.

Backhanded slap of praise should also be given to Hollywood for the lack of overtly assigning the old stigma of papist Anti-Christ evil to the Catholic Church for the things that perversely attack titillated bigotry. At least that fiscally prudent reticence defuses some of the old prejudices and hatred and persecutions of Catholics by the Protestant majority in this nation. Most Catholics don't even know that history and don't hear to their faces very often what goes with stock in trade anti-Catholicism dating back to the Wars of Religion. So Hollywood should be "praised" for stopping short and inserting some neutral atheism in the mix, while said atheism is also strangely excited and entertained by the cabalistic conspiratorial mumbo jumbo that is the occult genre.

So there are two things. People watch lurid crap. People expose their own beliefs and suspension of the same when being led to entertainment troughs. Usually it doesn't matter though the vast push of the pulp
boosting machinery is a decrepit conspiratorial monster worthy of more critical films about itself. It produces far worse and more insidious garbage than this single occult movie and gets people to believe very skewed things about reality and human nature itself- while brainwashing for product sales and cigarettes. The Church at a certain point in its history institutionally supported mass ignorance and skewed information as well(this is an understatement from a loyal Catholic). I'd love to see the Vatican make such a self-critical analogy but they certainly don't want to go there.

For outright pernicious anti-Catholic bigotry though, one has to gives the jeers to the Left Behind Series which is blatantly appealing to the lowest common denominator and IQ of Christians. One should be thankful I suppose that they have not become a national pimping favorite of the MSM "culture" machine, even less than Gibson's film which too was limited to a select audience- but mainly insulted Jews.

[Bridget Burke]

49. Catholicism is definitely more "interesting"....

I was raised Catholic. The first time I entered my town's Baptist Church, I wondered who had taken all their "stuff."

The "Da Vinci Code Tours" offered by travel agents sound mighty fine. They offer visits to several fascinating churches & lots of sites in the South of France. I'm not a "believer" in the book--but would leap at a chance to take the tour. For free, that is.

[Chomp]

45. A ridiculous book

I'm going to stick to believing the walking on water, loaves and fishes, ascension, ressurection and Virgin birth. Much more credible.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. The last temptation of Christ

again a work of fiction. They did the SAME DAMN THING and the demonstrations WERE FUNNY>

I did not like the Da Vinci Code, I thought it was not that good... heck I did not even get through the first half of the book and it is rare for me to put a book down... but hot damn it, maybe I will go watch the movie... I mean the entertainment before the movie might make it worth it.

[insane_cratic_gal]

48. It wasn't very well written

I'd have to agree with you. I'm forcing myself through it.

It's worse because I read Holy Blood Holy Grail .. I tell ya if that isn't plagiarism I don't know what is but a court decided for Brown.

[Bridget Burke]

50. The authors of HBHG billed the book as non-fiction.

I read it & didn't "believe"--although I enjoyed it.

But their charge wouldn't hold up in a court of law, although Dan Brown DID rip them off.

[insane_cratic_gal]

51. It was feasible to some extent

Minus the whole Priory of Sion, and Templars.

But feasible that Jesus did fall in love and have sex with a woman and potentially had a child.

I could buy that it was feasible, it wasn't impossible. But I'm not heavily invested into the Christan religion either.

[Bridget Burke]

54. It's also feasible that Mary Magdalene was an important disciple.

Texts recently discovered have shown her influence in the early Church. There's no real evidence of a marriage & a Holy Kid.

Is viewing her as Mrs Jesus (or Mrs Christ) another way of downgrading her actual position?

[insane_cratic_gal]

56. I don't suggest they were married

Merely lovers?

That absolutely doesn't down play her at all, at least not in my eyes

[Bridget Burke]

58. So, she was just another groupie?

It's not what a woman does, but WHO she does?

[insane_cratic_gal]

60. Lover does not equate to groupie

It relates to two people who might have indeed loved one another minus the vows. Vows which if given publicly would of shunned the marriage. He was the "messiah" after all.

Because Jesus took a lover does not diminish Mary's role or devalue her. She was loved as a person, an individual by Christ not for her perfection or beauty but for her imperfections, I'm quite sure the other apostles were quite offended by her value and attention from Jesus.

BTW I still think Lilith got a bad deal! Funny how that happens eh? a Powerful woman comes along and the only way to diminish them is to call them prostitutes or banish them to hell and create a docile Eve vs a powerful self assured woman of Lilith

[noonwitch]

61. I agree that Mary Magdelene had a larger role than the gospels indicate

The Gnostic Gospels allegedly indicate that she was also an apostle and closer to Jesus than the others. I haven't read them, so my comments are just on what others have said about them.

Still, "The DaVinci Code" is fiction, not fact, and catholics and fundamentalists are getting worked up about this movie, unnecessarily. After all, the novel is part of a fad, christianity (catholic, protestant, fundie or liberal) has been around for a very long time in comparison.

I do understand the desire to clarify their position, though, to prevent people who are unfamiliar with christian teaching, from confusing their teaching with that of a novelist. There's a difference between speculating that the gospels maybe missed some points of the story, especially regarding female disciples in a world where women had virtually no status, and believing a story that Jesus and Mary were married and had children.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. Yep but that is becuase the other book is

non ficiton and this one is... yuo cannot really copyright fiction.

That said, they also filmed it on location... so one way to see the Louvre.

[walldude]

89. I remember crossing the picket line to see Last Temptation

and coming out of the theater wondering if any of the protesters had actually seen the movie. All it did was present Jesus as more human. Whether or not people believe he was the son of god, he was as human as the rest of "god's children".

I agree with you about the DaVinci Code as well. It moved fast but the characters were flat as hell, and it read like he was wondering about how much he'd get for the movie rights while he was typing. I'll see the movie, and probably enjoy it more than the book.

[survivor999]

112. I think I'll read the book now!

During my next long plane trip... :popcorn: :applause:

[kestrel91316]

53. Because the book is FICTION, the author is free to make up anything he

wants and put it in. He can have facts interspersed, and then lots of non-facts. That is the nature of fiction.



I am shocked to see works of fiction that refer to the sky as blue. HOW CAN THEY DO THAT?? If they put one fact in, the whole thing MUST be factual by law. sarcasm off

[porphyrian]

57. Why is the Catholic institution so afraid of a work of fiction?

It's not just Catholics that have this problem, though, most Christian sects behave this way.

If what you believe is the truth, why the fuck are you so scared of people believing otherwise? They're wrong, aren't they? If what you believe is the truth, people who believe otherwise will eventually recognise this as they find the flaws in what they believe, right?

This isn't really about belief, is it? It's about control, isn't it?

[Bridget Burke]

73. The Catholic "institution" has made several responses....

And quite a few eminent Catholics have expressed NO opinion.

More of what this Cardinal said: "If it is clear this has nothing to do with truth and it amuses you to go see it, why not?" he said when asked if moviegoers should boycott the film starring Tom Hanks and Audrey Tautou.

Where's the fear?

[porphyrian]

95. I was speaking broadly about the issue...

...of religions fearing dissenting opinion. The hubbub surround this book and movie only brought it up.

Don't pretend you don't understand what I'm saying, even if it doesn't exactly apply in this situation. I made a cogent argument. If a belief is the truth, what is there to fear from alternate ideas? Won't false beliefs be proven false in practice, thus strengthening the argument for the true belief? If it's not fear that drives people to silence those who believe something false, what is it?

[RebelOne]

65. Go to Dan Brown's Web site

at www.danbrown.com. There is some really interesting info there.

[Rainscents]

66. Bible was written some 325 years after Jesus death and Roman

Catholic is the one who had written the Bible. When, Bible was written, Roman wanted to control people "Christian" and and wanted power and it worked!!! They got both! Who the hell knows what's the truth in the Bible.

Far as Da Vinci Code, it's probably has more truth to it then, Bible.

[bobbieinok]

145. gospels and most letters were written much closer to Jesus' time than

325 years after his death......are you refering to the council that decided which books to include in the canon? then, I think, your time is correct

[maxsolomon]

69. take the good with the bad

SOME of 'code' is utter conspiracy theory potboiler.

SOME of it utilizes, and popularizes, mystic, esoteric knowledge/beliefs that have existed since since BEFORE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. when Constantine had the bible edited down to the existing form, there were a LOT of gnostic sects that got driven out of existence. where do you think the Nag Hammadi Papyri came from anyway?

myself, i PREFER the jesus of the Gospel of Thomas - a teacher, not the divine being of the fairy tale. that the Magdelene was his lover makes the story richer for me. that she bore him children who's lineage continues to this day is just as absurd as the virgin birth, and as unneccessary. it means that those who believe in (or toy with) this theory still think that Jesus was MORE than human, that he was BORN Christ, rather than BECOMING a Christ.

the Catholic Church has both sane & selfish reasons for keeping the arc of Jesus' story rigidly defined, even in the debased God-for-children form it prefers. its the source of their power, obviously, but without its orthodoxy & discipline, Christianity gets snake-handling, Dave Koresh-crazy FAST.

[Beelzebud]

70. Notice this story was only a huge threat when they made the movie.

It says alot.

It says to me that the church knows most of their followers don't READ BOOKS.

For them to get all freaked out over this story now that it's a movie, is so revealing.

They don't have to worry about the sheep reading. But when it's presented as soemthing to just sit and watch, then it becomes a threat to them.

They also count on most of their flock not reading the bible.

[Bridget Burke]

75. Do you have any proof that Catholics don't read & Protestants do?

Catholics do learn the Bible, but don't believe it 100% true--as do some Protestants. That's why Catholic schools do NOT teach Creationism.

[Raksha]

108. I totally agree with you...they only started going ballistic

when the book was made into a MOVIE. I said this on DU on another thread a couple of days ago. They know there are a lot more people who watch movies than read books, even works of popular fiction.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

72. wait...it's based on a book of fiction and it's fiction? I don't follow.

[genieroze]

74. The Da Vinci Code is nothing compared to this book. The Bible Fraud.

Yes I read it, that's why I'm no longer a christian.

If the Da Vinci Code is such bull and TOTAL fiction, why care at all? Did the church protest the Omen??? NO. The Last Temptation Of Christ??? YES. Think about that one? The Church doth protest too much If you ask me. I didn't read the Da Vinci Code but I do plan to be entertained by the movie.

BEHIND THE BIBLE FRAUD -
What was the Church trying to hide?

Recent TV and radio programs on the Holy Blood Holy Grail by Michael Baigent and The Da Vinci Code by Dan Brown have caused outbursts from parties of various faiths. An article from New Dawn Magazine by Roberts Adams about The Bible Fraud was recently posted on Rense.com and it attracted similar responses. To read more, click here

http://www.joshuabooks.com/bushby/biblefraud/internalgif/fraud.htm

"However, attempting to summarize what Tony has written..... in 325 AD, the first Christian council was called at Nicaea to bring the stories of twin brothers, Jesus 'the Rabbi' and Judas Khrestus into one deity that we now know as Jesus Christ. Tony says they were not born of virgin birth but to Nabatean Arab Mariamne Herod (now known as the Virgin Mary) and fathered by Tiberius ben Panthera, a Roman Centurion. The brothers were raised in the Essene community and became Khrists of their faith. Rabbi Jesus later was initiated in Egypt at the highest of levels similar to the 33rd degree of Freemasonry of which many Prime ministers and Presidents around the world today are members. He then later married three wives, one of whom we know as a Mary Magdalene, a Druidic Princess, stole the Torah from the temple and moved to Lud, now London."


You have to read the whole thing.
http://www.joshuabooks.com/bushby/biblefraud/internalgif/jb_article2.htm

[Bridget Burke]

78. Church history, Church Councils & acceptance of what is "Scripture".....

Are only "secret" topics for those who have never bothered to study these rather arcane subjects.

Joshua Books is a "vanity" publishing house. They will publish your writing for a fee--in SOME cases, they will actually pay the author.

http://www.joshuabooks.com/publishing.htm

Joshua Books hosts David Icke's Australian site. His theory of the reptilian race that secretly controls humanity would be amusing if so many of his "reptilians" did not also happen to be Jewish.

[genieroze]

80. PacificBlue Group is the publisher.

Edited to add. I got the book from Amazon, Joshua Books is selling it, they didn't publish it unless PacificBlue Group is a subsidiary.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0957900716/002-7279854-6632012?v=glance&n=283155

[WinkyDink]

94. Yeah, but he predicted war on Dubya's watch, and wrote of Poppy's

pedophilia.

[genieroze]

103. Do you mean David Icke? You can find that stuff on Voxfux.

http://www.voxfux.com/
I read some Icke and I don't like his reptilian thing but I agree most of these people he's talking about are snakes. lol

[yasmina27]

111. I agree

I find Icke difficult to believe at best. That said.... watch Shrub during a speech - the tongue darting out lends credence to the theory of reptiles ruling the world :)

[genieroze]

126. the tongue darting out lends credence to the theory of reptiles ruling

the world. How about the tongue darting out lends credence to. A. a dry drunk, B. a moron, C. a coke head, D. all of the above.

[dtotire]

76. The Priory of Sion, From Wikipedia

Priory of Sion
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

The Prieuré de Sion, usually rendered in English translation as Priory of Sion or Priory of Zion, has, since the 1970s, been an elusive protagonist in many works of pseudohistory. It has been characterized as anything from the most influential secret society in Western history to a modern Rosicrucian-esque ludibrium, but, ultimately, has been proven to be a hoax created by Pierre Plantard. Most of the evidence presented in support of claims pertaining to its historical existence, let alone significance, has not been considered authentic or persuasive by established historians, academics, and universities.
Contents


* 1 History
o 1.1 The Original Priory
o 1.2 The Hoax
o 1.3 The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail
o 1.4 The Pelat Affair
o 1.5 The Da Vinci Code
o 1.6 The Sion Revelation
* 2 Et in Arcadia ego...
* 3 Cultural influences
* 4 Alleged Grand Masters of the Priory of Sion
* 5 Notes
* 6 References
* 7 External links



History


The Original Priory

The Priory of Sion is an association that was founded in 1956, in the French town of Annemasse. As with all associations, French law required the association to be registered with the government. This took place at the Sous-Prefecture of Saint Julien-en-Genevois, in May 1956, and its registration was noted on 20 July 1956 in the Journal Officiel de la République Française. The founders and signatories are inscribed as Pierre Plantard (known as "Chyren"), André Bonhomme (known as "Stanis Bellas"), Jean Delaval, and Armand Defago. The purpose of the association according to its Statutes deposited at St. Julien was entered as, "études et entraide des membres" ("education and mutual aid of the members"). In practice, the originator of the association and its key protagonist was most probably Plantard, its General Secretary, although its nominal head ("President") was André Bonhomme. The choice of the name, 'Sion’ was based on a popular local feature, a hill south of Annemasse, known as 'Mont Sion'<1>. The accompanying title to the name was Chevalerie d’Institutions et Règles Catholiques d'Union Independante et Traditionaliste – this forms the acronym CIRCUIT and translates as "Chivalry of Catholic Rule and Institution and of Independent Traditionalist Union."

The Statutes and Registration Documents of the Priory of Sion were deposited on 7 May 1956, while the first issue of its journal Circuit is dated 27 May 1956 (in total, twelve numbers of the journal appeared). Considering the political instability of the French Fourth Republic, the objective of the journal were perceived with suspicion by the local authorities. It was indicated as a "Bulletin d’Information et Défense des Droits et de la Liberté des Foyers HLM" ("News Bulletin for the Defence of the Rights and the Freedom of Council Housing"). Indeed, some of the articles took a political position in the local Council elections. Others attacked and criticized property developers of Annemasse. It also opposed the gentrification of the area. The offices of the Priory of Sion and the journal were at Plantard’s council flat.

The articles of the Priory of Sion as indicated in its Statute desired the creation of a monastic order—but the activities of the Priory of Sion bore no resemblance whatsoever to the objectives as outlined in its Statutes—these were two entirely different things—as noted by the Sub Prefecture of St Julien-en-Genevois. Article VII says that its members are expected, "to carry out good deeds, to help the Catholic Church, teach the truth, defend the weak and the oppressed". There is ample evidence that it had several members, as indicated by the numerous articles contained in its journal Circuit that were written by numerous different people, and towards the end of 1956 the association had aims to forge links with the local Catholic Church of the area involving a School Bus service run by both the Priory of Sion and the church of St Joseph in Annemasse.


The Hoax

The association was dissolved sometime after October 1956 but intermittently revived for different reasons by Plantard between 1962 and 1993 in name and on paper only. A letter at the Sous-Prefecture of Saint-Julien en Genevois indicates that Plantard had a criminal conviction as a con man. From the 1960s, a series of hypotheses and unproven historical associations became attached to the name Priory of Sion. These bear no relation to the origins of the 1956 association. The Priory of Sion is considered "dormant" by the Sous-Prefecture because it has indicated no activities since 1956. According to French law, subsequent references to the Priory bear no legal relation to that of 1956 and no one other than the original signatories are entitled to use its name in an official capacity (though André Bonhomme played no part since 1956, he officially resigned in 1973 when he heard that Plantard was linking his name with the association; therefore no one is around to use the name officially).

Plantard originally hoped that the Priory of Sion would become an influential cryptopolitical pseudo-masonic lodge (similar to the P2 cabal) dedicated to the restoration of chivalry and monarchy, which would promote Plantard's own claim to being a legitimate pretender to the throne of France. In the 1960s, Plantard began writing a manuscript and produced "parchments" (created by his friend, Philippe de Cherisey) that Father Bérenger Saunière had supposedly discovered whilst renovating his church in Rennes-le-Château. These forged documents alluded to the survival of the Merovingian line of Frankish kings. Plantard manipulated Saunière's activities at Rennes-le-Château in order to "prove" his claims relating to the Priory of Sion.

Between 1961 and 1984 Plantard contrived a mythical pedigree of the Priory of Sion claiming that it was the offshoot of the Abbey of Sion which had been founded in the Kingdom of Jerusalem during the First Crusade. The Abbey of Sion and all its assets were absorbed by the Jesuits in 1617. The mistake is often made that this Abbey of Sion was a "Priory of Sion", but there is a difference between an abbey and a priory. Calling his original 1956 group "Priory of Sion" undoubtedly gave Plantard the later idea to claim that his organisation had been historically founded in Jerusalem during the Crusades when meeting the author Gérard de Sède during the early 1960s - this fabrication by Pierre Plantard was part of his literary deal with de Sede when they began collaborating during the early 1960s in a series of published books.

Furthermore, it is reported that letters in existence dating from the 1960s written by Plantard, de Cherisey and de Sede to each other confirm that the three were engaging in an out-and-out confidence trick, describing schemes on how to combat criticisms of their various allegations and how they would make-up new allegations to try and keep the whole thing going. These letters (totalling over 100) are in the possession of French researcher Jean-Luc Chaumeil, who has also retained the original envelopes. Jean-Luc Chaumeil during the 1970s was part of the Priory of Sion cabal, and wrote books and articles about Plantard and the Priory of Sion before splitting from it during the late 1970s and exposing Plantard's past in French books.

In order to give credibility to the fabricated lineage and pedigree, Plantard and de Cherisey needed to create 'independent evidence'. So during the 1960s, they deposited a series of forged documents, the so-called Dossiers Secrets or "Secret Dossiers", at the Bibliothèque nationale de France (BnF), in Paris. Therefore, people who set out to research the 'Priory of Sion' would come across these fake documents at the BnF. One of those researchers was Henry Lincoln.


The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail
Long Article

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priory_of_sion

[leftofthedial]

79. Imagine all those people believing an elaborately constructed fiction

just because some powerful people tell them it is true.

Shocking!

[Cleita]

84. I thought it was a lot of bad writing with an intriguing plot.

which is probably why it became a best seller.

[Canuckistanian]

86. Must be hitting a little too close to home

Maybe there's something to this DaVinci Code, after all. I wonder what the fuss is about?

What did the Vatican know and when did they know it?

[survivor999]

88. Quite possible...

Most likely, they are worried about confusion and contamination of the Catholic Church brand image... Like any corporation would.

[Canuckistanian]

90. Yes, they're rapidly losing 'market share'

They may have to outsource to bring in more revenue.

[MADem]

121. Imagine if they bring in UNDOCUMENTED FEMALE Priests!!!

Or MARRIED ones?

Now, that would be a way to stem the tide with creative outsourcing! They already put out some confusion and wiggle room in the condom department, which is a big deal for them. Hell, how long did it take for them to pardon some of these scientists from centuries past???

[axollot]

97. I think when the Dead Sea Scrolls...

..were found in the mid 50's (?) Is when the Vatican 'found' a bunch of shit they didn't like/want known because it goes against the dogma/doctrine etc.
I read a book many years ago regarding the Dead Sea Scrolls and found it very interesting. It was written by a pair of scientists that had access to much of them at that time for research. Everyone was in on the scrolls (US, Israel, Vatican etc) - the main players NOT playing nice with the rest of the individuals and sharing their findings was of course the Vatican. You could say they ran off with "their share" and a lot of what they had access to has not been let out publicly, let alone to other scientists who were also allowed access to the rest of the scrolls.

Now I can barely remember the books name let alone the two scientist's names that I am referring so forgive me on not being able to give a more detailed account. Possibly someone else here can? If I remember correctly it was written in the 1970's.

From my understanding, the Vatican still has not let any other organization associated with the scrolls access to their share. Also, a great deal of the scrolls are incomplete for a number of reasons. Besides the obvious, their age. I understand that they were found by a very poor man and a great deal of what was found was used as kindling of all things, before his find was figured for its value beyond burning! aghh! I guess 2000 year old papyrus is good for lighting a stove fire when you are dirt poor. Wood is a commodity out there.

I also remember that reading it "should" shake any christian's belief. The Zealot's which was considered at the time a Jewish sect/cult (and the word in its modern English meaning is similar to that of fanatisism, is it not?) 2000 years ago are who Jesus was supposedly a member of and they are the writers of the scrolls themselves. It talks of Peter, being pissy with the very strict folks at Essene and he went on to Rome taking his message about Jesus with him for his own gain, popularity and prestige. It is fustrating I cannot recall more information. A google regarding them should find more I am sure.

[Bridget Burke]

109. The Vatican Conspiracy is another Baigent/Leigh fable

Baigent & Leigh are, of course, the surving authors of "Holy Blood, Holy Grail." Perhaps we'll all read more about this "conspiracy" in Dan Brown's next novel.

Allegations that the Vatican suppressed the publication of the scrolls were published in the 1990s. Notably, Michael Baigent's and Richard Leigh's book "The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception" claim that several key scrolls were deliberately kept under wraps for decades to suppress unwelcome theories about the early history of Christianity; in particular, Eisenman's speculation that the life of Jesus was deliberately mythicized by Paul, possibly a Roman agent who faked his "conversion" from Saul in order to undermine the influence of anti-Roman messianic cults in the region.

The complete publication and dissemination of translations and photographic records of the works in the late 1990s and early 2000s - particularly the publication of all of the "biblical" scrolls - has greatly lessened the credibility of their argument among mainstream scholarship. Today most scholars, both secular and religious, feel the documents are distinctly Jewish, rather than Christian. Dr. Trevor himself, in his book about the Dead Sea Scrolls, made the assertion that the scrolls have a deep archeological and historical significance, but asserts that they are the writings of another sect of Jews living out in the desert and nothing more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_sea_scrolls

There are many books out there about the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Nag Hammadi Library, the Gnostics, etc. In fact, there are "Complete Idiot's Guides" to the Gnostic Gospels & to Mary Magdalene. A brief check of the Tables of Contents & the Amazon reviews indicate that a "beginner" could do far worse.

Books that exclaim "At Last the Truth Can Be Told!" may be bound for the Best Seller List, but should be read with extreme caution. (I was not a "beginner" when I read HBHG; I enjoyed it but didn't quite believe it.)

[JuniperLea]

93. Methinks thou dost protest too much

If they truly thought this was ignorance and no big deal, I hardly think it's worth their time to kick up such a fuss.

I've seen local churches put up banners announcing special speakers who are denouncing the Da Vinci Code.

I think the whole thing is a hoot!

[jdelullo]

100. Something is rotten in the state of the Vatican

I and almost all regular Catholics I know have no problem with the book. May i paraphrase Jon Stewart, commenting on why people were up in arms over the lies in the Da Vinci Code:
"Thats why you can find the book in the FICTION SECTION."

Sums it up pretty well.

[JuniperLea]

101. Exactly

Why all the angst over a self-proclaimed piece of fiction?

:shrug:

[truebrit71]

102. They are worried about the truth it speaks about the church...and NOT

..what it says about the "grail/holy bloodline" etc etc...

It makes it painfully obvious how the church has subjugated and oppressed women for centuries, and has been actively involved in persecution of the Jews for just as long.

The church has a history full of lies, oppression, murder and fear. Fuck 'em if they don't like the book/movie...and fuck 'em if they don't like the truth being told about them...

[iconoclastNYC]

106. There's an unbiased point of view.

[misternormal]

107. Hello !!!!! It's a NOVEL.... A story....

Is Star Trek or Tommyknockers real?? Gimme a break.

Some people take this stuff too seriously.

The Cardinal is right however... Some folks can't tell real from fantasy.

[Arugula Latte]

115. Oh, I get it.

The Vatican and the pushers of organized superstition in general can spout off about any fucking crazy idea and that's just fine because it's "faith" :puke" (my least favorite word), but everyone else had better STFU.

[RedG1]

117. Written across the wall of the cave were the following symbols...

It was considered a unique find and the writings were carbon dated at approx two thousand years old!

The stone on which the symbols appeared was removed, brought to a museum, where archaeologists from around the world came to study the ancient symbols. They held numerous meeting s and after months of deliberations determined the meaning of the markings.

The President of the society pointed to the first symbol and said: “This is a woman. We can see these people held women in high esteem. You can also tell they were intelligent, as the next symbol is a donkey, so they were astute enough to have animals help them till the soil.
The next drawing is a shovel, which means they utilized tools.”

Even further proof of their high intelligence is the fish, which means that in times of famine, they sought food from the sea. The last symbol appears to be the Star of David which means they were evidently Hebrew.

The audience applauded enthusiastically.

Then a little old Jewish man stood up in the back of the room and said, “Idiots, Hebrew is read from right to left......

It says: ‘Holy Mackerel, Dig The Ass On That Chick'

[Djinn]

129. The Vatican and most poster here

would do well to remember Bill Hicks and his quick capsule review...

Piece-of-Shit. end of story by the way. Don't get caught up in that fevered hype phoney fucking debate about that Piece-of-Shit movie, you've forgotten how to judge correctly. Take a deep breath huuh, look at it again.

"Oh it's a Piece-of-Shit!"

Exactly, that's all it is. Satan squatted, let out a loaf, they put a fucking title on it, put it on a marquee, Satan's shit, piece of shit, walk away.

It was a badly written trashy airport thriller - THAT's where it should have stayed, there doesn't need to be a debate about whether it's fiction based on fact, all fiction or was ghost written by the devil himself...it's JUST a bad book that's being made into a bad movie

Walk away people

[lovuian]

132. What the Davinci Code did was something SPECTACULAR!!!

You want to know WHY the church is scared because they have been found out...

My revelation and I believe MILLIONS revelation is for centuries the world has looked at Davinci's Last Supper with eyes that is John the young man.

When now for the first time People look at the picture and are told by Dan Brown

No thats Mary Magdelene

when I looked again over and over

It is now definitely to me a woman as well to millions

The fact still is refuted by the CHURCh its a man its a man its a man

How the church wants us to believe its a man and they scream threaten and unfortunately if the Inquisition would be still going ... we would be burnt at the stake...

Mary magdelene played a BIG part in the New Testament... its written that she was the first to see him rise and she was the most dedicated, She stayed with him till his death all the way. She wasn't hiding in a darken room. She didn't deny Jesus three times. She told the disciples but they didn't believe.
All throughout the New Testament woman disciples are there. The Roman church even went out of its way to write their names to mens name... So easy to do when YOUR the translator...

The question asked is WHY???
Why did the church take so long to speak up about Mary Magdelene bein a prostitute... Why was Mary Magdelene out of the Last Supper... WHY was this obvious plot to keep her in the background???
WHY??? Why the pushing back in the background Jesus's brothers and sisters??? WHY??? there in the New testament... for all to read... WHY??? its pretty obvious there was a conspiracy

Another tragic woman figure is Joan of Arc
A peasant girl who saw visions took a French Army and saved France...
and yet
The Church burned her at the stake and brutally had her raped

then a few years the Church announced the trial was a travesty
but Joan did not become a Saint until the 1900's centuries later...

there are more examples but its pretty obvious that the female devoted Christians are definitely for centuries put on the back burner literally and all the Ignorant Millions are asking WHY???

and we get the answer "You decandent lazy good for nothings don't ask just believe what we want you to believe.......

No More... ya I'm going to see the FICTION

[Bridget Burke]

134. Joan of Arc was burned by the English....

The Bishop involved was a pawn of the English government. Records show only an attempted rape--by an English nobleman. After her death, the Pope & a panel of theologians found her innocent. A Pope beats a Bishop, any time.

Leonardo was fond of beautiful young men. The Bible mentions John, the Beloved Apostle. Perhaps Jesus had similar tastes? I agree that the Magdalene's role in early Christianity was mostly eradicated. But I don't think that a Romance with Jesus was her greatest accomplishment.

People have been asking these questions for centuries. Let's hope that some fans of Brown's book will delve more deeply into the material that is out there.

[CornField]

137. My personal theory is that it is an awakening -- especially for women

Many of the early religions were goddess based & the traditional church worked so hard to remove any glorification of women. They took women's rituals and placed men in charge of them, changing them to reflect a man's viewpoint. They even went so far as to make woman (previously worshipped as a reflection of the goddess) into the bringer of evil, the vessel of original sin.

The problem has been that the world itself does not naturally operate as a man-based, man-ruled, man-ownership thing. In its haste to stomp out the goddess/earth-based religions, the church effectively shot itself in the foot.

Today you see women worldwide who are realizing they need the togetherness of other women. When there is another strong woman to lead them in "rituals" (think Oprah), the women flock to her. Many continue in the Christian religion, but do so more for the music/the social aspect/the networking/the peer group than they do for the real worship.

I think the Da Vinci Code, while not really awakening this in women, did alert them that perhaps the Christ caricature they'd been spoonfed by the church wasn't as spot-on as some believed it to be.

[insane_cratic_gal]

138. And the Vatican doesn't allow Woman to be Priests

Perhaps that is what they are more afraid of. Mary was Jesus equal according to some gospels that never made it to print.

You might very well have half the psyche of the church figured out.

[Skittles]

141. promoting works with no basis in truth

that sounds like...religion

[alittlelark]

144. sigh....... it's FICTION!!!!

Those too STOOOPID to realize it is FICTION probably voted for b*sh.

Cognitive Dissonance can be a GOOD THING.