With all Moms gone - last one Wednesday - Mother's Day with "Fog of War"

[Faygo Kid]

I am listening to the conclusion; a bonus with McNamara reading Dylan Thomas. Life is never so simplistic as those who oppose us - and we - would like. And perhaps we all need some strength that can only come from introspection. As with "Why We Fight," it ultimately does boil down to "simple" principles of right and wrong. LBJ was condemned. Yet he was perhaps the greatest civil rights president in our history. Only now do we face intrinsic evil with no redeeming value of any kind. Complexity has ended. This Millenial generation now in college has no strength or desire to fight this evil, and the next generation is under 5, and still being born. (I believe that even a draft would not wake up the Millenials. They will do as they are told). Boomers and Xers will either together stop Bush or be crushed in the effort. Happy Mother's Day.

[IndyOp]

1. Watch "Why We Fight" on Google... GREAT VIDEO!!

"Why We Fight" by Eugene Jarecki

Is "Fog of War" online? :shrug:

[Faygo Kid]

2. I intend to buy it in June, when out. Buy , rent "Fog of War." Deal?

Thanks so much for responding, and for your commitment.

[IndyOp]

3. I've seen "Fog of War" - I rented it... I am just hoping it will be online

someday soon so that many, many more people will see it. I find McNamara's insights in the film ver impressive - particularly his description of his visit to Vietnam nearly 40 years later, meeting with his counterpart and hearing their side of the story. The Vietnamese do not refer to the war as a 'civil war' they refer to it as "The American War".

:(

[Faygo Kid]

4. I debated for the war, until I studied it, in 1966, high school sophomore.

Then, after publicly supporting the war in debate (I was good) I read that there should have been elections; the world agreed they should take place, but France and especially the U.S. knew that Ho Chi Minh would have won, and so stopped the free nationwide elections in Vietnam. No wonder it was called "the American War." Like Iraq, we went in with total ignorance of the issues. I never, ever, thought my country would do it again. But then I never, ever, considered W. Bush would be president. I still hope this is a nightmare from which I will awake.

[IndyOp]

5. We've done it over 250 times since WWII --

"Killing Hope: 250 Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II" is the book that changed my world-view. <http://www.killinghope.org/>

Virtually every use of the US military has been for reasons that have everything to do with controlling markets and resources -- and nothing to do with benevolence or altruism.

Bush II is not 'off the charts' -- he is more active than those who came before him, but he is still behaving in a qualitatively similar way.

"What I Learned About US Foreign Policy" is here - if you liked "Fog of War" you should bookmark this and watch it when you can. It is over 2 hours long, but it is really just spliced-together videos about different topics, so you can watch the Bill Moyers segment one time and return and watch other segments at different times.
<http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3453261789658676035&pl=true>

:hug:

[Faygo Kid]

6. You feel it is systemic. I am not so sure.

When I hear the jaw dropping absolutely sincere farewell address from Ike, I am hesitant to equate one evil administration with another as all part of the same system. How do you account for LBJ's undoubted commitment to civil rights? "The military" is only a tool of leadership, neither good nor bad as an entity, only a reflection of their leadership, and we have abrogated our leadership to a bunch of madmen. I promise - absolutely promise - to watch what you recommend. But you grant them absolution to say this Administration is no different than those that came before, and that I cannot abide.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

8. Read my post #7...LBJ was very far from the image he tried to create.

[IndyOp]

9. I don't grant this administration absolution - I don't.

Sadly, however, I do condemn other administrations to the same category of having committed war crimes -- especially Reagan and Bush I. The same players in this administration were in the Reagan/Bush/Ford teams, too. Now they are just more powerful and more sick.

Black ops, however, went on during the Kennedy, Johnson, and Clinton administrations, too.

A critical issue is this: The CIA has operated, often without Presidential or Congressional oversight, since it was founded in 1947. Because of this, the administrations have had similar records in terms of use of military for economic goals. The Neocons are just a think-tank who have worked very hard to put an academic, benevolent face on an old idea, long in operation - use the US military to dominate, use the military whenever US financial interests are at stake.

Kennedy and Johnson could not control the CIA - that is clear from historical records. Kennedy didn't order the "Bay of Pigs" to occur, he had discussed what ifs and maybe whens - but the order to "Go!" was given by Dulles. Under Johnson, the CIA waged war in Laos to terrible effect as you saw in "Fog of War".

The CIA has been used as a military for the power-elite of this nation ever since the CIA was founded.

The only population in the world that does not know this information is the US citizenry. Books are published, read widely, and then forgotten as the corporate media noise machine distracts us again. Same for TV shows -- there is a Bill Moyers PBS show in "What I've Learned" that amazes me. It is amazing that it ever made it on air and amazing that it seems that anyone who did see it must've forgotten it within a day or two.

I saw the Madeline Albright interview on 60 Minutes in the late 1990's - the one in which Lesley Stahl says that estimates indicated that over 500,000 Iraqi children had died due to US maintained economic sanctions. Lesley asked Albright if she thought the price was worth it -- half a million children dead to oust Hussein. Albright replied that it was a hard choice, but that, yes, she thought the price was worth it. I was sick that evening. I was stunned the next day. I was 'off' the next evening. And then back to normal. I had classes to attend and research to do. I didn't pick up a newspaper to find out more. I did not call my Congressman. What Stahl & Albright had said differed so much from my understanding of the world that it didn't stick around long. Not that I would've thought I could do anything about it anyway at that time. :(

I do not grant this administration absolution. I don't have that power. I don't have the power to grant absolution to any administration or to the American public for having allowed this to go on for so long.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

7. I've never quite understood why LBJ got credit for JFK's civil....

...rights plan. LBJ was the consummate political animal...he knew what buttons to push, who to threaten, and who to pay off. The only reason LBJ pushed the Civil Rights Act is because he knew he would need support from the black community in the future.

Make no mistake about it...LBJ was a very conservative Democrat.

[Terran1212]

10. LBJ "civil rights president" = wrong imo

Any president of the time would've given in to the massive nonviolent power of the movement. It wasn't about LBJ; LBJ was a racist who didn't give a damn about colored people whether they were negros in Harlem or "gooks" in Vietnam.

Civil Rights came from the people not the leaders.

[Faygo Kid]

11. Respectfully disagree.

Of course civil rights came from the people not the leaders, and the leaders were the ones who made it law. MLK. You will crucify me, but I am 55, and disagree with you. And remember that time. So bring it. By the way, so you with your expertise say "any" president would have given in to the movement, so no one in that movement had courage, eh? They did not stand up, and it was just inevitable? So tell me, my friend, why the Hell do you even bother to post?

[Terran1212]

12. I guess what I have to ask you is

Do you also think that everything a President does on behalf of a poorer or weaker people is done out of altruism? That is not how power works.