Both Cases Are Rape

[novalib]

sex without consent is rape.

If lies and deceit were used in order to obtain the consent for sex, then consent was not really given. The party that was lied to was simply used by the deceitful party.

This is really quite simple.

[pnwmom]

1. Show me the state where that alone meets the criminal definition of rape.

[novalib]

2. I Said Earlier --

that you or anyone can else can talk all about the niceties of the American legal system (you know, the one where a judge refused to grant a temporary restraining order to a woman whose husband THEN poured gasoline all over her and set her on fire!.

But EVEN IF there are NO laws that support my view, THAT only demonstrates how fucked up our legal system is, and how it stacks the deck against women!

Sex without full consent is Rape.

[pnwmom]

3. Consenting to have sex with someone you don't know very well

is stupidity.

And that's not a crime, either.

[novalib]

4. People You Know Well

also lie.

in order to get sex.

And it's still Rape.

If it isn't, the victim is raped twice.

[pnwmom]

5. That kind of definition is an insult to women who really have been raped.

And so a man who has stopped loving his wife, but continues having sex with her, and still tells her he loves her, is actually committing rape.

[novalib]

6. If She is ONLY having sex with him

because he says he loves her, then YES.

Sex without full consent is rape.

[pnwmom]

7. By your definition,most divorced men are guilty of rape of their ex-wives.

At least on some occasions during the breakdown of their marriage.

[novalib]

8. Please

Now you are either purposely misreading my posts OR just being silly.

[pnwmom]

9. Not at all. You said that it is rape if a man falsely tells a woman

he loves her and on that basis they have sex. But that probably goes on in decaying marriages all the time.

[novalib]

10. WRONG!

What I sais was that if a woman "consents" to sex BECAUSE a man falsely tells her that he loves and cares for her, then the man is a rapist.

It has to do with the woman giving consent -- NOT with the mere fact that the man has lied to her.

If a married woman has sex with her husband (even though he does not love her), she may have other motivations for having sex with him.

It has to do with REAL CONSENT -- not just with what the man said.

[pnwmom]

11. And that is also what I was saying. A single woman could also give

consent for reasons other than the false assurances a man may be making; and one reason might be simply that she felt like it.

Even if she doesn't really want to admit this to herself.

[novalib]

12. If A Woman Consents to Have Sex

and if her consent was freely given (no coercion -- including not being surrepetiously given drugs) and true (not given based on lies or deceit), then there is no rape.

Are you suggesting that a woman who has freely and really given consent would later yell "rape"?

[pnwmom]

13. I can imagine rare situations where that would be the case.

And a lot less rare if women were to accept your definition of it being rape if a woman has sex based only on false assurances that a man loves her.

[FlaGranny]

16. Yes indeed. A gal I went to high school

with was on about her 200th sexual episode. This time it was with couple of guys from school. When she got pregnant, she claimed rape so her parents wouldn't punish her. She slept with practically every boy who would or could up until then. She bragged about the episode with the two guys and all the other conquests she made until she found out she was pregnant. Then suddenly it was rape and two young high school boys went to prison

[pnwmom]

17. And that's a motivation we've overlooked in this thread: some girls,

even women, might be motivated by fear of their family's reaction (e.g., in the case of pregnancy) to accuse someone of rape.

[woo me with science]

15. And who measures this professed love and caring

and decides whether it was real? What if they have different ideas about what a "caring" relationship looks like? Who decides if he lied? Do you have objective criteria by which to decide, in retrospect, after CONSENTING, that his assertion of "caring" was false?

This is just sad. Thank goodness our "rapist" judiciary considers women to be adults and capable of making their own decisions.

[novalib]

18. Any Reasonable Person

We use a "reasonable person" standard when judging whether or not sexual harrassment has occured on the job.

We should use a "reasonable WOMAN" standard to measure whether or not a man's profession of caring, etc. was genuine or not.

I think I hear you suggesting that a woman saying "yes" to sex ALWAYS means that she is doing so freely. And so, I guess you'd say that if a woman says "Yes" to having sex, she is NEVER being raped.

I disagree.

[pnwmom]

19. I think most reasonable women would say that if she says yes,it's not rape

assuming he hasn't put a date rate drug in her drink, or something

[novalib]

20. I Think Otherwise

I think, first of all, that EACH case of alleged rape should be heard on its merits.

And I think a judgment made, on the basis of the facts in each case, should be made by reasonable women -- or by men who use a "reasonable woman" standard.

And I think that men should NOT be presumed innocent of rape simply because the woman may have "consented" to have sex.

The very question of whether or not consent was or was not given should be made by the jury or the judge -- based om the FACTS of each case.

Otherwise, many men who coerce a "yes" from a woman will get away with rape -- simply because the woman said "yes".

[pnwmom]

21. I think you should make any lover sign a contract agreeing to your

definition of consent. Just so that he knows.

Or else you should wait until you're married, and put it in your pre-nup.

[novalib]

22. Thanks

thanks for the advice.

[Neil Lisst]

25. I hope you don't date men without giving them a written warning.

Detailing your unusual views that NO means NO, and YES means NO, too.

[Yupster]

27. The woman saying yes

sure seems like a good reason for the man to "get away with it" to me.

[Yupster]

26. Are you really being serious?

or are you putting us on?

I have trouble believing you really mean this.

[Neil Lisst]

24. Who judges the love issue? A panel of Nancy Grace, Gloria Allred

and a randomly selected member of NOW.

[woo me with science]

14. Well said. nt

[Name removed]

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