World’s First Lithium Powered Car has (300 mile range)

[kaygore]

A company called Hybrid Technologies has introduced the World’s first vehicle powered only by a lithium Polymer battery, and it could make gas-electric hybrids obsolete and change the automotive industry forever.

Until now most all Hybrid and fully Electric Vehicles were powered by Nickel Metal Hydride batteries, the technology was relatively cheap and expectable for the high demands placed on automobiles, but engineers knew that NMH batteries were not near effective enough to power an average size vehicle for a trip over 100 miles on their own.

Hybrid Technologies uses a revolutionary new Lithium Polymer Battery made by Kokam corporation. The company plans to market their new method of propulsion in Daimler Chrysler’s Smart Car, but says any car can be modified to use the system. The advanced Lithium Polymer Batteries can propel the the 1,700 pound Smart Car for an impressive 300 miles on a single charge, which brings it up to the range of a standard gasoline powered passenger car. Top speed is 100 miles per hour, and to fully charge the vehicle will take 5 hours. The Smart Car’s cost per per mile should be around 2¢, which is equivalent to 40¢ per gallon of gasoline. Initial cost will be $35,000, but that price will drop as volumes increase.

"A 300 mile Electric makes Hybrids look complicated and Fuel Cells unnecessary"

http://www.newtechspy.com/articles06/lithiumcar.html

[rockymountaindem]

1. Sweet!

Clean, cheap cars that don't crank pollution out into the atmosphere... Can't argue with that.

[silverweb]

2. I love it!!

Please, let it be what it says it is. Let it be true and available!

PS - Put this in the environment forum, where it will get more mileage!

[ComerPerro]

3. What kind of speeds can it hold over that 300 mile range, I wonder

for example, if I drive the whole way at 70mph (speed limit here) how far can I go?

And how long can it idle, such as, in traffic?

[HereSince1628]

7. Electric motors don't idle. They just stop.

A battery powered car stopped in traffic shouldn't use any power for locomotion. Although a radio, heater, etc. might be drawing on the batteries.

I'm sleptical enough to think the 300 is a "best distance" estimate that doesn't include the possibility of a heater or a window defroster.

Personally, I'm glad to read about it.

[ComerPerro]

9. Well, true, but electrical components keep running.

Your radio, your AC, etc...

So, what I am asking, I guess, is

Would those draw power from the same battery that powers the car and movement, or would there be a separate batter, charged by something like an alternator?

[Squeech]

12. No

There won't be an alternator. The battery runs the motor and all the appliances. You're stuck if you run out of charge.

[kaygore]

15. But could it be a hybrid so that the car wouldn't just stop?

[ComerPerro]

16. That's what i'm wondering about then, when they say 300 miles

what if you're in traffic, and stop every half a mile?

Or you are constantly stopping and going, accelerating and decelerating

[Squeech]

20. Depends

If there's a flywheel braking system, some of the kinetic energy of the rolling car is recaptured. If not, you just lose it. I haven't read the article yet, so I don't know. (In truth, the main reason I wrote my previous hasty post was as a kick, so I could read the article at my leisure.)

It occurs to me, however, how much of the energy cost of cars derives from how heavy they need to be: an engine block, or a full complement of conventional lead-acid batteries, weigh hundreds of pounds. Apparently this lithium battery is significantly lighter, which is a good thing. (I hasten to add that you don't want a car to be *too* light, lest it allow the driver get totally crushed in an accident, or lose traction in bad weather, or something.)

[5X]

11. Electric cars don't idle. On or off, just like any electric motor. n/t

[Xithras]

24. And what about air conditioning? Headlights? The radio? HILLS?

In a gas burning car you have tons of extra energy that can be tapped to run peripheral systems, but in an electric car all of that has to come out of the primary power storage device.

I live in an area dense with commuters who, on the surface, would probably embrace this kind of technology. On the other hand, the commute to the Bay Area from here requires crossing two passes, takes place in 100+ degree summer heat, and in the winter usually begins and ends outside of daylight hours.

What happens to the mileage when you fire up the AC and hit those hills? The advantage of hybrid technology is that you still have that gas powered backup to help you out when energy demands exceed the capabilities of the battery. With battery power alone, exceeding capacity of the available power supply means you STOP and call a tow truck.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

4. The Maya 100 - all lithium ion superpolymer battery technology

This one is made in Canada and has a range of 230 miles, with a top speed of 80 mph. They are now being sold in Scandanavia. Unfortunately, the price tag is steep at $70,000.

http://www.electrovaya.com/innovation/zev_tech.html

I think these ultra light weight batteries are the wave of the future and will be better than the biodiesel or ethanol solution, which takes too much water and uses up too much land. Peak water is also just around the corner. Hopefully, we can develop better sources of energy to power the electric grid for all-electric vehicles, such as safer forms of nuclear or solar and wind power.

[TheWraith]

6. Peak water? Sheesh.

Don't be silly. One word: desalination.

[Gold Metal Flake]

10. More words.

Transportaion.

Cost.

Privatization.

Thirst.

Cronyism.

Riots.

Murder.

Beer.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gold Metal Flake]

30. Don't. Worry. It. Will. Never. Happen.

:hi:

[TheWraith]

47. Why was my message deleted?

I said nothing even remotely offensive. If it was because I used the word "nitwit," I have two things to say to that:

1. I've been called far worse than a nitwit by people who disagreed with me, and I didn't go running to the mods.

2. It was part of an in-joke to a book, about gibberish that doesn't make sense. It wasn't directed at the poster.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

13. Desalination? One word: energy

Energy is already in short supply, if you haven't noticed. And this entire issue is about current sources of energy and their affect on global warming. And besides, biodiesel and ethanol have other drawbacks, such as destroying what little of the natural environment is left with the shrinking acreage on this planet, especially in places like the Amazon. I've read that it takes from 10 to 15 acres of land just to keep the average American car on the road for one year to produce corn-based ethanol. Multiply that times the number of cars in the United States and the world. And biodiesel and ethanol themselves require energy. It therefore makes much more sense to go all-electric instead of having an in-between step of fuel which itself requires energy to make.

Biodiesel and ethanol might be the current "green" rage but they're just stop gap measures. Better to lighten a vehicle instead of running the same sized engines, but doing it on other fuels. And carrying fuel in the car, whether gas or biodiesel or ethanol itself uses energy. Lighter batteries that weigh very little but maintain a strong charge (elecricity has no weight) means the entire car can get light as well, while maintaining strength. That's far more efficient. The best approach is an all-electric vehicle in the long run.

[demobabe]

21. Energy isn't in short supply

What we really have is an oversupply of assholes who create chaos and war to inflate oil prices and corporations keeping us away from innovative solutions so they continue to profit without cutting into profits by implementing new energy-saving technologies.

There are plenty of ideas and maybe a combination will be what works... Biodiesel, electric, etc... I had no idea you could get actual gasoline out of recycling plain old trash like is in the landfills!

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

28. "Energy isn't in short supply"

Okay, I think I have to check to see if somehow I didn't stumble into another dimension overnight.

[demobabe]

44. I'm not telling you to waste energy

Just that we have an endless supply of energy - not oil - energy. We just have to have the right mindset and find ways to work out solutions.

The big corporations and the oil guys aren't on our side, and will do what it takes to protect and increase their profit margin. They'll keep us tied to oil and pollution until they have something else that can be equally or more profitable.

We haven't always had an oil-based economy. Just think: once the world ran on whales!

To say there is a shortage of energy is ridiculous - as long as electrons keep moving about however they move, we have energy. We do have a lot of silly waste at this point in time and we do need to be more mindful of how we use our resources.

The thing that's really in short supply is unpolluted land, water, and air. If anyone wants to be concerned about "Peak" anything - it would have to be "Peak Environment."

We can always find another form of energy. It's not as easy to find another Earth.

[TheWraith]

37. There's more energy than you could imagine available to us.

Read up on deuterium extraction from seawater. Nuclear fusion. Deuterium/deuterium and deuterium/tritium reactions. Lots of power there. Given a little investment and motivation, we could have a working fusion reactor fairly soon.

Right now we have an artificial energy shortage because of people playing with the market. It doesn't reflect any lack of actual energy available for the taking--on the most basic level, we have the sun, which isn't planned to go out for about five billion years.

[karlrschneider]

43. Well, the sun isn't really an "unlimited" energy source since

the total amount we get is around 100 watts per M^2. (however I do understand it might be possible eventually to construct some kind of space-based collectors/transmitters...One of the "I, Robot" stories discussed such a system.)

edit: The robot in question was, IIRC, "Cutie", or QT-something - who
developed a deity-complex. :D

[TheWraith]

46. Yes, for all our energy needs we'd have to pave over Utah and Nevada.

No great loss, in my opinion.

But my general point was that it's grossly inaccurate to say that there's no supplies of energy. There's infinite supplies of energy all around us. Even if you just look at the fossil fuels we're used to, there's no actual shortage, just people playing games with the price.

[karlrschneider]

50. I assume you mean "infinite" in a rhetorical sense

given that ultimately every energy source we have or might exploit (unless somebody figures out how to duplicate the "other space" resource like in Heinlein's "Waldo") has or will come from our star...

nu?

[Tesha]

55. Off by an order of magnitude; about a kilowatt/M^2 under ideal conditions.

NT

[Tesha]

58. Reference...

http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/

Tesha

[karlrschneider]

33. Desalination takes a LOT of energy.

just sayin'...

[paparush]

41. Them melting Ice Caps...them's all part of the Bush** Plan to support

Lithium technology. They are *conveniently* releasing all that fresh water that was so frustratingly trapped in ice.

[enid602]

5. lithium

Hell,I'm on lithium, and I can go from zero to 'full bitch' in less than 15 seconds.

[Booster]

19. Just wanted you to know you made me laugh outloud.

[patdem]

56. Now THAT was funny! A belly laugh funny!

I seldom laugh out loud..and I almost cried!

[Gold Metal Flake]

8. Remember that an electric car does not replace fossil fuels....

...it merely moves the fossil fuel energy conversion plant from under the hood to the electric power plant. The electricity has to be generated in some fashion, and it is doubtful that solar could supply the needs of a daily commuter by itself. I work with solar, and will consult one of the engineers on how a concentrator array using multijunction cells might work out in such a sitch. Otherwise, consider if you were to recharge the battery using a diesel generator burning biodiesel. That might make for a nice, carbon neutral method of powering your car.

[kaygore]

14. It does if you are getting electricity from the sun

There is a big movement in California to require that at least some of the roof in new houses have solar panels. Do not write off solar powered electricity or the ability of Californians' to make it work!

[Gold Metal Flake]

25. Did you read my entire post or just the subject line?

Miss all the solar stuff?

[karlrschneider]

35. I'm assuming you mean photovoltaic panels...? And I believe they

(at this point in technology) take more energy to manufacture than they will convert over their useful lives. Anybody feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken.

[Gold Metal Flake]

40. I'd like to look at that.

Can you provide some info on your assertion?

[karlrschneider]

52. Sorry, I am only going on the impressions I've gotten from casual

sources. But I am an aeronautical engineer (by education if not by current discipline) and try to be accurate on such matters. Like I said, things may have changed since I last looked into it...as with many issues, this is one I'd like to be wrong about.)

ks

[Gold Metal Flake]

57. I have info.

I'm a CAD designer, not an engineer. I work for a company that produces solar cells for spaceflight but that also has a terrestrial bidness unit. I have an interest in alternative energy of all kinds, but I do not ever discount the cost of energy to build a thing or even to ship it. Every part, right down to the screws and washers, right down to the rubber on the shoes of the person who drew the screw, takes energy to produce.

I put the question of energy payback to an engineer I work with, and he responded with links to two studies on the web. The first is from NREL, the National Renewable Energy Laboratory.

For an investment of 1 to 4 years-worth of
energy output, rooftop PV systems can provide
30 years or more of clean energy. However,
support structures for ground-mounted
systems, which might be more advantageous
for utility generation, would add about another
year to the payback period.

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/35489.pdf


The next study was presented at the Solar World Congress 2005, Orlando, Florida, August 2005, to the American Solar Energy Society.


The energy payback for most photovoltaic systems is
between 2 and 4 years. The input energy is much less than
the net total energy that will be returned by the system, but is
still a significant amount of input energy.

http://www.ongrid.net/papers/PVvsInputEnergySWCph.pdf

I do not know what the payback of a GaAs concentrator panel would be. I assume that it would be a bit more than Si because of touch labor and the complexity of the deposition process ans well as casting the fresnel lenses in silicone. The greater cost might be the tracking/mount system. But the nearly doubling of efficiency might be an offset.

[karlrschneider]

59. Thanks for that. I'm an engineer, but aeronautical specifically

and so don't get deeply into electrochemistry. Obviously I'm not up to speed on current PV technology (and I'm ashamed that I'm not.)
ks

[Gold Metal Flake]

61. Have you seen Home Power magazine?

Have you seen Home Power magazine?

http://www.homepower.com/

You can download an entire issue in PDF (big download). It's a great magazine to see what is happening in all forms of alternaitve energy generation.

An international magazine is RENEWABLE ENERGY WORLD. Very cool.

http://www.earthscan.co.uk/defaultREW.asp?sp=&v=3

:hi:

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

17. Current solar cells are about 12% to 15% efficient

If we could move it up to the range of 80 to 90% efficiency, it might make a difference. There's technology now being developed to eventually produce ultra thin films that can even be painted on a car's paint or on the windshield. They're based on carbon, not silicon technology.

Still, I don't think it would be enough to power a car (although 500 lb. solar race cars with current technology can reach speeds over 100 mph). But I recently heard a scientist on television mention that a cube 100 square miles of solar panels (current inefficient solar panels) located somewhere in the Mohave Desert could produce enough electricity to power the entire United States.

Then there are also possibilities for developing cleaner and safer nuclear power solutions.

[Gold Metal Flake]

27. The "current solar cells" you reference are silicon.

I wrote of multijuntion GaGs cells under concentration for approx 30-40% efficiency. I put the question to the engineer, I will report back what info I receive.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

36. I stated they were silicon technology, if you read the post

By contrast I mentioned newer thin film technology based on carbon, not silicon.

[Gold Metal Flake]

39. The carbon stuff is fun.

Not sure if it's effective for charging a commuter car.

In this sitch, we need to supply the current needed to get back home. I'm looking at a panel that can be deployed at the office, and silicon or carbon ain't gonna cut it.

Edit: I reread your post and do not see where you state in the text that the cell types you refered to as "12% to 15% efficient" are silicon. Excuse me if my clarification was somehow disconcerting to you.

[karlrschneider]

42. Did you perhaps mean Gallium Arsenide? Never heard of Gs

as an element...
;-)

[Gold Metal Flake]

45. Grumble...

GaAs is what I mean't to type. Gallium Arsenide, you are correct sir!

[karlrschneider]

53. Heh, no problem. I'm one who often types ahead of my brain.

:D

[htuttle]

22. Thing is, there are about a zillion ways to generate electricity

I think electric cars open up the most options for heterogeneous energy sources. Wind, hydro, nuclear, solar, biomass, co-generation from industrial processes, etc...all make electricity.

Worst case, some guy can stand there for a few hours moving a magnet over a coil of wires...

[Gold Metal Flake]

29. That guy, is he here legally?

That would hurt a lot long before you would have an amp. Anyway, all alternative sources must be developed, and they will.

[demobabe]

49. Ed Begley, Jr. is off the grid

And he actually has hooked up his excercise bike to feed energy back into his batteries providing electric for his house!

Talking about the zillion ways to make electricity... :)

[htuttle]

51. That's a Gilligan generator!

Except I bet Begley's isn't made out of bamboo and coconuts...

[Xithras]

26. Centralized power production is more efficent and less polluting.

Yes, I know all about the dirty coal burners, but that can be corrected by regulation. If you centralize the production of power used in vehicles, and then regulate the emissions of that centralized plant, you lose a LOT of the pollutants entering the air.

[Gold Metal Flake]

38. "Captain, there be ifs here!"

Polution control is a big if. We are powerless to do anything about that right now. Centralized power production requires fossil fuels or nuk-U-lar, each with tremendous pollution or greenhouse problems.

I hope you didn't expect I'd have any solutions in this post.

[deaniac21]

18. Should keep away those pesky bipolar moments too!

[stepnw1f]

31. Anti-Manic Mobiles

I like it...

[longship]

32. Good for commuting, bad for anything else.

Not a car I'd want to take on a trip. The impracticality of pure electric is inherent in its inability to be self-sustaining.

That's where hybrids shine, as general purpose vehicles and not just commuter conveyances. With current technology it is undoubtedly possible to extend hybrid mileage to the point where over 100 mpg is well achievable. We're almost there now. That's probably the best short term solution to things until fuel cells come on line.

[MadHound]

34. This sounds nice, however

I see some drawbacks to this. First off is extracting Li from the rock. It is an energy intensive process akin to electroplating. Second, disposal. Li is both a bit toxic and corrosive, certainly not something we need to be tossing in the trash. Third, availibility. Most Li is to be found in Chile and Argentina. Do we really need to replace one dependency on a group of foreign nations with another? Fourth, infrastruture, how are we going to charge cars when people are on the road? And frankly, are people going to want to wait 2-4 hours while their cars charge, somehow I doubt it. Fifth, how well does is this technology going to function hauling a ten ton load down the road? And sixth, safety. These batteries have explosive potential when they discharge suddenly, say during a car wreck.

I think that there are certain applications for this technology in the automotive world, mainly for the daily commute, running around town. But this technology stumbles badly when it comes to long haul driving, carrying loads, and the fact that it isn't renewable.

I really, seriously believe that we need to take this opportunity to go with a renewable fuel source such as biodiesel. Better for our society, better for jobs, better for the country as a whole.

[Touchdown]

54. An idea on Infrastructure.

The old Route 66 solution. National Parks. Spend hours, days even at Yellowstone or the Grand Canyon. Outfit the parking lots with coin operated charging sockets, or charge a fee to use the lot. This could also work with subsidizing Carhenge, Plaster Dinosaur, World's largest ball of twine, that old motel with Teepee rooms in Arizona, etc.

I can see road side cinemas, Ice rinks, mini golf, museums, whatever. They tacky way traveling used to be.

Part of the joy of road trips people have forgotten is the trip itself. Disneyland may be the destination, why yell at each other on the way there? Get out of the car and stretch your legs for a while. Let the kids scream over there.

You spoke Greek on the lithium mining thing, so I'll defer that to you.:hi:

[Blue_Tires]

48. interesting n/t

[Toots]

60. $.40 compared to $3.00

Savings of $2.60 a gallon and over three hundred miles (average fillup distance) @ 25 MPG = 12 gallons or $31.20 savings per fill up. Average four fill ups a month $124.80 or $1497.6 a year. It will take quite a few years to pay for itself at that rate and five hours to charge the batteries..........

[Blue_Tires]

62. ttt n/t

[Orsino]

63. Cool. But for the next five or ten years...

...hybrids are still better than the magic electric cars that aren't yet made.