So disheartened

[Morgana LaFey]

I missed Oprah yesterday, when she had a panel on to discuss the Imus thing and the resultant rap/hip hop criticism ... but I caught her today, which was a continuation of yesterday's discussion.

Among the panelists were Russell Simmons whom I respect greatly, someone who is a VP at Warner Records (or some such), a former NAACP head (I think, and almost remember his name), and Common who is a rap star.

Gail went down to Spelman and had several gorgeous young women who had a few things to say tho didn't get nearly enough time to say them for my taste.

I didn't get to watch the show completely uninterrupted. For one thing I was surfing, and I was dealing with my husband wandering through, interrupting, and so forth.

Afterwards there are other things grabbing my attention but I notice I'm in an increasingly bad mood. REALLY foul. Depressed and foul. About an hour later I left for an errand, and my drive time was 1/2 hour so I had lots of time to explore this newly creeping, really foul mood.

What caused it was these men on Oprah who just didn't get it about the goddamned sexism in rap lyrics. Russell Simmons defended them as "poets" who are merely reflecting what society has been for them, growing up in poverty and the 'hood and so forth. He told us repeatedly that poets will ALWAYS be attacked because we will always be "uncomfortable" with what they have to say.

The Warner guy was all self-congratulatory about how HE in reality "uplifts" these people and how hip hop has done more for race relations in the last decade or two than all the civil rights people (or was that Simmons? or maybe both).

And Oprah said, repeatedly, but your videos don't have to GLAMORIZE the misogyny. No response to that that I can recall. There were some clips shown that were just soft porn, no two ways about it -- complete with body parts blurred out. LOTS of body parts.

Russell Simmons claimed that what society has to do is address those things which the poets are describing from their own experience which make us uncomfortabe. (But apparently the poets are off the damn hook for promoting and glorifying it.)

I get it about poets (and other artists) and making us uncomfortable, etc. I agree with that, I laud and salute that. But I think there are limits, frankly.

My bad mood was about the inability for anyone to reach these guys that not only is there a problem (this they at least acknowledged, finally), but that they are PART of the problem. No, not them. Society, not them. Not the rappers and hip hoppers who are just the messengers about this "problem."

I felt so angry, so powerless -- which IS, after all, the primary message of all sexism, isn't it? Powerlessness and worthlessness.

One great line from the show: Rappers didn't CAUSE Imus to use those words (or be a racist).

One shocking thing: Simmons seemed genuinely surprised that those gorgeous Spelman women were being called ho's by --- everybody, they said. (Because, you see, rappers are supposedly making a distinction between the ho's from the hood and the non-ho's from elsewhere. Nevermind that there should be NO reason any woman has a gender slur used against her. Do they also think it's okay for African Americans to be called the N-word if they "deserve" it??)

Sorry to ramble so. I just needed to vent a bit.

[bliss_eternal]

1. I no longer watch Oprah---

but I REALLY appreciate your sharing about this particular episode of her show. I was curious if she was going to have such a discussion, so this is interesting.

I can relate to your feelings of frustration. :hug: I am sincerely sorry that it contributed to a bad mood. Hoping you are feeling better.

I wish someone had asked Russell Simmons what part of the "poetic experience" included dousing women with Old English 800, Crystal and other alcoholic beverages. I also wish that someone had pointed out to him that despite some feeling there is a distinction between types of women addressed by such comments--to those that listen to those lyrics, there is no distinction.

Woman=ho
Woman=bitch
Woman=piece of ass, that will shake it in the video. :eyes:

I also would have been interested to hear Mr. Common's comments, considering he spoke so disparagingly of Karine Steffans after her book was released(which surprised me considering his work). I do believe he referred to her as some of the things we've discussed here and I want to know why that is? Why speak disparagingly of Karine? Why not the men she had these experiences with? Many of whom were married, had girlfriends, etc...

There is a double standard for men and women in society.
This double standard extends to the hip hop industry.

It doesn't surprise me at all that Russell Simmons would defend it. It's how he's made his fortune. How would he look saying anything else?

:shrug:

[Morgana LaFey]

3. I do think Simmons got it, at least a little, when those lovely

Spelman women said yes! They'd all been called ho's by lots of different people (not just the ignorant and ill-informed). He sorta did a double take.

There were some really good points made by some people -- audience, Oprah, the Spelman women, some of the other invited guests. It's so clear that what got me SO down was the impenetrability of the brick wall those record industry guys were. Bummer.

One thing that became clear, though, including to Oprah, was that women are going to have to say ENOUGH. The Spelman women were getting politicized, Oprah was getting a little politicized... this could be good. We NEED a resurgence in the women's movement -- 4th Wave, anyone?

[MountainLaurel]

4. He'll really feel differently

When it's his little girl who gets called a ho.

[Morgana LaFey]

5. True 'nuff -- and they ALL had daughters, btw.

Thanks, everyone, for your support.

[bliss_eternal]

7. YES!

Exactly, great point MountainLaurel! :hi:

[SemperEadem]

6. I wonder if Russell Simmons thinks his wife, Kimora is a ho?

well, Mr. Simmons? Oh, she's not? Why not? Because she's married to you, she's elevated somehow, but what about a girl who lives in the 'hood because she and her parent are doing the very best that they can? Is it that she can hardly be elevated to the level that Kimora's on, and it's ok to call her a ho? Ok then, how about your daughters? Why aren't they ho's? Why is it ok to marginalize the black girl in the 'hood and rob her of her humanity because she won't give up her sex to some rapper that can't relate to women in general so he demonizes and objectifies women in order to make himself feel superior? Mr. Simmons, do you not see how foul that is? Do you not see your part in contributing to this by offering a dysfuntional 'poet' distribution for his toxic rhyme?

[bliss_eternal]

8. I recall seeing him speak on why he wanted to marry Kimora...

...based on those comments, he doesn't get it.

He went on and on, about how models are apparently better than other women (without saying exactly those words). He spoke of how models travel so much and as such, frequently have to learn other languages because of where their work takes them (i.e. Europe, Asia, south Africa, etc.). To me his comments just said he was seeking a lovely arm-piece that would make him look good. :eyes:

And I appreciate your comments. Thank you! :hi:

I lived in the inner city as a young adult, and trust me--it was not fun to be a woman in the area without a car. :eyes: You are made privy to all sorts of comments, insinuations and nastiness. Sometimes it was downright dangerous(I was frequently physically and verbally assaulted just walking to the bus stop, running errands, etc.). The videos and lyrics even at that time, reinforced this idea that women just want to ride around in their nice cars and be their "play things." If you weren't a woman that complied with this idea, things frequently turned ugly and I had to fight off some guy trying to force me to do what he wanted me to do. :scared::cry:

Not only does their work reinforce the idea that women are b's and h's, but it also tells them that women that happen to live in such areas couldn't possibly be anything other than what is represented in the videos. Women that live in the inner city, want to be picked up by strangers that drive by in nice cars, hooted and hollered at as they drive by, or "talked to" by strangers in disrespectful ways. A woman that lives there can't be intelligent, have a sense of self, and be about anything other than money and things. Noooooo. That just doesn't happen. Not in the 'hood. :eyes:

I was confronted with more than my share of men that didn't appreciate my differences. They also tried (unsuccessfully) to shape me into their "model" of what a woman should be. Anyone care to guess what that "model" should look and act like? ;)

[femrap]

12. We are enduring a terrible Backlash.....

I was so hopeful in the '70's...I thought we had evolved.

I still think that the rich white male (rwm) is responsible. Have you heard of The Business Roundtable? Some of the richest of the rwm. These are the top corporate CEOs of American businesses. They set the stage for what is going to happen in Media, the Environment, Music, (basically all of pop culture), manufacturing, etc.

This Roundtable doesn't like working with women. Period. They like their golf clubs, limos, privilege, cigars, racist jokes, etc.....they don't want women around at the top of corporate power. Nor do they really like Black men around either...but they kinda enjoy watching the oppressed fight amongst themselves...so they set up the 'game.'

So a common tactic is to 'divide and conquer.' Let's get the Black men and women, who have fought together on many issues, to fight against each other. And so they use a big, fat carrot of $$$$ and encourage the Black man to disrespect his sisters. And I don't think this takes that much encouragement....unfortunately. But my point is...it is all PLANNED. It is a strategy...and if the Black man knew this and believed it, maybe he would be disinclined to side with the rwm against his sisters.

But as Shirley Chisolm said....'Men are men.'

[bliss_eternal]

13. Hi femrap...

...thank you so much for sharing this. I'm aware of the "game" of pitting the minorities against one another. I've spoke of it on DU before, and try to remind (and teach) the various populations of it(glbt, immigrants, black, hispanic, disabled, Jews, etc.) when they start finger pointing and such.

To be honest femrap, it hadn't even occured to me that part of this game was pitting black men against black women or vice versa. But of course, everything you said makes perfect sense.

:hi:

[femrap]

15. Hi bliss_eternal...

Those rich white boys sure know how to 'divide and conquer,' don't they?

Thanks for responding...We got lots of work/teaching to do, don't we?

:pals:

[Chovexani]

17. Heh, Russell was looking for a beard

My sister works in the hip hop promotion business (she used to work in BET's marketing department) and well, let's just say that's a marriage of convenience.

Makes his misogyny that much more interesting, IMO.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

9. Snoop Dogg tried to make the same argument

Mr. I Have My Own Girls Gone Wild Special Edition claimed that when he calls women hos he's referring to women (and according to him there are legions of them in his 'hood - like a cottage industry or something) who are trying to exploit innocent unsuspecting chaps like himself for their money. As opposed to the Rutgers women who were "taking it to another level", or some nonsense like that. Snoop seemed less incensed that Imus was using the term about actual women than he was that Imus was appropriating it without his authorization. 'Cause HE gets to decide who is a ho and who is not.

[bliss_eternal]

10. Oh, Bullshit on him...!

:mad: Men like him don't get to decide who is the h word. My experience has shown me that men like him treat ALL WOMEN like the h word, particularly women "in the 'hood." :eyes: It is the way they've learned to communicate with women and they don't know anything else. Sadly, in some cases their own mothers encourage this behavior.

Sadly, I've met too many inner city women that are themselves misogynists (and misogyny apologists). They spend their lives warning their precious sons of those horrible women, hell bent on milking them of all their money, love, time, etc.--all the while, their hands are firmly affixed to the young man's resources and wallet. :eyes: These women tell their sons everyday of their lives that all women are the h word and want nothing but a good time and money.

I lived too many years in the inner city. I didn't get that at the time I had any other options. (Duh, bliss...lol)
Those were some of the most miserable years of my life.

I can't tell you how many men would tell me, "...you aren't like the rest of THESE women." :eyes: (Yes, that made me feel so great...not!) Yet, they didn't treat me any different than they treated "those" women. Some recognized that I lived there but wasn't OF there, so to speak. But sadly, they couldn't offer anything better--they had nothing better to offer.

Men like Snoop make this discussion about the women and choose to blame the victim. It's not about us, it never was. It's that they don't possess the ability to see women any other way. To them women are eye candy, collateral, playthings, objects in their videos, objects of their complaints in their music. It's a recipe that's working for them.

[raccoon]

2. I didn't see it, but sounds like it would've pissed me off too. nt

[ismnotwasm]

11. There are a couple commercials lately

One is for a car, Chevrolet, with different "culture" scenes. One scene shows a black man rapping or posing, I forget which, in front of his car with two attractive women in the background (scantily dressed of course) washing his hubcaps or something. For the white man it's the commercials theme country song, "We aren't the jet set, we're the Chevrolet set" driving down a country road.Evoking home and hearth.

Another, is a play on the word "Dog" DAWG,(I forget what the commercial is for) shows a group of black men, in what I would consider standard rapper type attire, leaning WAY over to get a better look at yet another beautiful, scantily dressed young woman walking by.

To me, these commercials are not only sexist, but racist as well. I'm no expert, but mainstream rap was standardized and commercialized and was sold out years ago, from what I understand. I still remember, and occasionally listen too, socially conscience rap music that may speak the language of the street, but isn't about bling. living large, ho's, and bitches and fucking someone else's "Ho" etc.

These words I heard many years ago from a rap song and is resonating with me particularly in light of today's SCOTUS ruling

"It was cold and dark and raining hell when you put your baby in the garbage pail, you kissed the kid put down the lid and tried to forget what you just did" (This was before the Neil Young song with similar lyrics)

[bliss_eternal]

14. Today's Scotus ruling...

:cry::cry::cry:

[Fran Kubelik]

16. I missed that. How was Common?

I imagine he came out looking pretty good - I cannot recall sexist lyrics from him.