Reality and Fatal Attraction syndrome...

[bliss_eternal]

Why do so many women (non-feminist usually) subscribe to the idea that there are women out there, lurking in the darkness, waiting to prey upon attached men? Even going so far as to banish the man of any guilt whatsoever (barely mention him, in fact)....instead it's all about the super slutty woman, and her deeply magical, mystical ability to seduce the ever faithful dewd away from his loving, dudette.

What the bloody hell is this about?

I've seen it all over the blogosphere ever since Brad, Jen and Angelina. As if to say Angelina stole him away. Brad lost all ability to say,"no." He was so overcome w/her seductive powers. The entire blogosphere was filled with accusations that she was a homewrecker....what with stealing away the exemplary example of monogamy and manhood that was, Billy Boh Thorton. :eyes:

As if to say a woman can be a homewrecker, when there aren't already some cracks in the foundation of the home, and as if a man is going to leave anyone or anything--against his will?

Give me a friggin' break! I dated before marriage. One thing I know about men, if they don't want you....they don't want you. They won't hesitate to say no--if not interested and that's that.

So why this presumption that women are the sole one's responsible when a man cheats, commits adultery, etc.?
And why are women so willing to blame other women, instead of the man in situations like this?

Any thoughts on this...? :shrug:

[Name removed]

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[ismnotwasm]

8. One of the problems I have with that line of thinking

Is automatically, women who are prostitutes, strippers, topless Barista's, groupies, nude models for men's magazines or even your old fashioned 'bar fly', in fact any 'femme fatale' or 'seductress' type go into the category of "trash"

I choose to not call women trash. Or bitch or ho, or slut.

I don't think a hooker checks on the married status of her John. Nor do strippers-- the agile, in shape ones can do things with their body that are pretty incredible. Just sayin'

While I completely agree woman are not innocents and are accountable-- bad behavior is bad behavior-- if we lived with an equal gender playing field we wouldn't need feminist board or feminism. It's not equal out there. For the sexually active women who have no consideration of others, sexuality is far too often about striving for power, or an economic imperative. For a man, well he's just getting laid. You can see patriarchy reflected in both responses.

[bliss_eternal]

11. a few others, for the list...

...homewrecker

...skank

...slor (:shrug: i'm guessing a combination of slut and whore. while inventive, still derogatory).

as well as utilizing cutesy women's names, typical of playboy bunny types (i.e. muffy, buffy, staci, pam, holly, etc.) not as harmful, but there are women who have never been employed in the sex industry that just so happen to have these names. so why use these names, when the intent is to slur a woman? i get it, but i don't like it--and i doubt women holding those names dig it much either.

[seabeyond]

14. it is what it is.

talking to 16 yr old niece. she was telling me she was talking to X on the phone. they are just friends. his new gf does not want them to talk on the phone.

she went on about the controlling behavior of gf. and how X had to talk to niece behind gfs back. on and on about this gf.

i asked her

you are talking about her. bf promises not to talk to niece. they both are in essence lying.

forget the dog bf, what part does she own in it.

she took no responsibility in her behavior. she wasn't committed.

but it does say something about niece.

very simple, very minor event in a 16 yr olds life. but it is something i would like for her to think about as she grows. it is her behavior she is responsible for. it is bf who is responsible for his behavior.

that simple

i think part of the problem, in our desire to address exactly what you are talking about, we take the responsibility away from the person knowingly making these choices away from them. we normalize it. we accept the behavior with no recriminations. allowing an attitude of innocence. a game. i dont agree.

[ismnotwasm]

15. I think what we are talking about *is* recrimination

Bad behavior is bad behavior but bad in gender behavior women take the brunt of the blame. I won't go into actual history of this here. Women getting called names, women being first in line to not only be blamed, but to accept blame as their due. When they don't, they're immediately labeled one thing or the other, or considered unstable. In fact, some may be unstable;

We all have stories like the one you mentioned and worse. I have a friend at work who's husband left her for a stripper. This friend of mine is an innocent. She didn't know anything about sex work and in particular didn't know the reputation of the club he was hanging out at. Suffice to say it's closed down. Anyway, I enlightened her as much as was appropriate, (some folk don't want to know) Well, he had partially depleted their bank account. He married the young woman. She proceeded to attempts to 'normalize' the relationship, became a stepmother to my friends' daughters, assisted her new husband, among other things, in the fight against Child Support. After a couple of years, she found somebody else, (while still married) left the guy, became pregnant immediately with her new man and to top it all, moved in 4 houses down from her soon to be ex-husband.

Not stable, no I would say not, not going from sex work to serial marriages and quick pregnancies. I sense a considerable amount of pain in her behavior. It would be easy to condemn this women. It would be easy to call her all kinds of names, in fact easier for her, maybe than some. But is it appropriate? In my feminist soul, could I not find a shred of compassion for this women, not yet thirty, three kids, first using her body and then evidently her reproductive abilities to find a place in the world? How about the men she's involved with? What is their part? Equal or larger? Nobody twisted their arms.

Reading a story like that, the first thing most people will see is 'stripper', and I will bet you money she'd get an instant knee jerk reaction of condemnation.

A personal story;

My husbands' ex-wife left him. Left him alone to raise two daughters, their is some evidence she wasn't faithful, but worse, she was abusive to those girls. I have to this day the hospital records, her psychological report after her son was taken away. (Hubby was there through her pregnancy with the boy and considered him his own in his heart, but was unable to get custody because of the lack of blood relationship)

So she waltzes in and out of his life, takes him to court, doesn't pay child support, then married a guy whois in prison for murder. He gets out and they set up housekeeping. He isn't faithful. I've left out a lot of history here, her own abuse as a child, her years as a biker 'sweetheart' and all that means, her perceived 'promiscuity', but the ending of the story is that my stepdaughters mother killed herself. As angry as my husband has been with her over the years, as exasperated and disgusted as I got, the simple fact is, that was a horror my girls never recovered from.

I missed that woman when they were teenagers, I can tell you. She was a woman with a personality disorder dismissed from institutions as being beyond help, condemned in society as a 'slut'(men would come to her because it wasn't much to get her to perform fellatio, big joke it was after, huh?) Unable to find a place in the world. Yes, she pissed me off. Yes her behavior was fucked up, but I owned my part in our relationship, because I wanted her to be a part of the girls lives. I'm rough around the edges, not a woman to fuck with, but I never was with her, I tried to be gentle as possible and keep everybody safe as possible.


I believe feminism might have saved her life, but that's wishful thinking maybe. And it's far too late to blame one person now, so I blame the patriarchy. (Nod to Twisty)

[bliss_eternal]

17. Definitely recrimination...

...and, I too blame the patriarchy--as opposed to the woman. The women you described aren't at fault for the way they were. In order to change, to become whole one has to eventually accept personal responsibility for where they are (among many other things)but in the grand scheme of things, it's a vicious cycle.

The woman is not the reason for the failure. Perhaps she (and her participation) is a symptom of the bigger issue w/the man, but not the reason he walks away, chooses abandonment, bad behavior, to cheat, etc. Also, it's misunderstood that by saying this, one is attempting to dismiss the woman's part in what occured. Not the case at all. Just a request that the emphasis be placed where it belongs...on the dude who was in a committed relationship.

We can become so focused on personal responsibility that we miss the bigger picture, which troubles me.

Oh and I, for one appreciate all you shared ismnotwasm. :pals:
:grouphug:...to you and yours! :hi:

[seabeyond]

18. i saw this article on cnn right after posting on this subject.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/08/03/negotiated.infidelity/index.html?hpt=C2

she sugardaddies married men, blames the wife, says the way men are biologically and of course, she is innocent of any wrong doing.

she prositutes herself out

then hooks up in a relationship saying all should not make their hubby stay faithful, better off to let stray

as she applies her rules in this playing around. only creating the taboo to titilate her bf to bad behavior (against her rules).



i dont see it as a gender issue. men and women cheat and as i have said in past, and the psychiatrist says, it says more about character than gender.

the least we can do is say it as it is. can i empathize with the stripper or prostitute or the woman that thinks (thru patriarchy) a man buying her is her only way to make it in the world? of course i can.

but i am not going to mainstream it to normalization and acceptance as i see authors of books like this is doing with our young women.

how many women do we hear say, "he is thinking with his little head". "biological for men to cheat". women are saying this. they have been conditioned to believe.... but equally, so have men. we talk about mens behavior as if theirs is a conscious effort, whereas all women are doing it because of the partriachal system. men, too, are effected by patriarchy in their behavior, along with the women. but we dont empathize. we dont even discuss with them. we chew their ass off and send them on their way with no thought at all that MAYBE they are as conditoned as women are.

this article is what i am talking about. they get to own it. whomever. i have never been ok with people purposely hurting others.

that doesnt mean i cannot understand why both males and females make the choices that they do.


on edit: i understand why women have stepped away from blaming the woman screwing around with married man. in the past, he did get a pass. it was all on the womans shoulders for making that man do it. but what happened along the way, trying to shift back to the cheaters is we made it ok and acceptable to screw around with married man without any blame or repercussion. that extreme is no more right than only blaming the woman.

[seabeyond]

22. today cnn furthered this discussion.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2010/08/03/lkl.let.him.cheat.cnn?hpt=C2

spread the seed, it is dna, biology causing men to.....

we are allowing this to become a reality. not a true reality. but a reality for both genders. talk about patriarchy and creating conditioning for both genders.

i did hear the first comment from a woman saying she does not agree with the premise, but then it cut off so i didn't get to hear the rest of the conversation.

[ismnotwasm]

23. The woman in the article is very offensive to me,

She's simply mean and cruel. And wrong headed. And doesn't seem to think much of men OR women.


So I take it you think she gets a free pass because she willingly uses her body to make a buck? Or because it's not 'quite' prostitution? I'll guarantee you lot's women and quite a few men would feel like you do. Only They'd call her 'slut, whore, bitch, etc.. or on the oh, so hilarious 'lighten up' positive side, "hot, I'd hit it" and where does she live again?

But WHO is driving demand here? This young lady? The fact that she believes all that bullshit about men, and doesn't understand the sexuality of women at all? She's not driving demand. She's making a buck, writing books; 'former mistress' my ass. A sugar daddy is a sugar daddy and in street parlance that is just a long term john.

You know what pisses me off? Women can't. Just. Get. Laid. Those of us who do, well we also have special names and special shame and are targets for the worst kind of disrespectful horny creep.

You know, it would kill my husband if I cheated on him, just kill him. He doesn't understand any part of the behavior. He says our sex life is 'sacred' (it's also very, very good) On the other hand, if he cheated on me, I'd shit-can him. It would break my heart, but I'd do it. Why? Because we've talk about things like that. We talk about how we feel about a variety of interesting topics, take the temperature as it were. I'd feel completely betrayed, and beyond anger. I wouldn't 'blame' his choice of partner. (I might kick her ass though)

I went through that post-hippie era 'free love' bullshit when I was younger. It's not free and it's not love.

I have an opinion on sex work; If money is exchanged for a sexual service, HOWEVER that exchange is done, directly or unspoken gifts, whether it's to stare at titties all the way up to esoteric or gymnastic penetration, it's prostitution. I get sick of prostitutes getting put down as some sort of lower life form. It's all prostitution and part of a larger problem. To paraphrase my favorite blogger again, women can't CHOOSE objectification when they're part of the sex class and are already objectified.

I also wanted to say about strippers, I don't need DU to get an opinion from a stripper. I just need to make a phone call, or two, or three. Plus I have practical experience. While they agree with some of what I've seen from the comments here, you talk to a sex worker one on one and you get a level of honesty I've NEVER seen at DU. And I hate being bullshitted about it.

I see this woman as a classic example of the damage from patriarchy, and a result of the demand for sexual access to women 24/7. Not women's fault. Does this absolve her from her own shitty behavior? Of course not. But in posted the article you've actually reinforced the original discussion point, if you look at her as I do, a sex worker. You gotta wonder what got her started.

Where is the responsibility of the men? The woman herself says men are just horny, and incapable of decent sexual behavior; I'm sure she surrounded herself with men that supported this opinion. But either she is right about that, (I should send her a copy of the SCUM manifesto, nobody tops Salinas in finding what's under the rocks in a man's soul and psyche) Or she is full of shit.

I think she's full of shit, and many a feminist would disagree with me, but far more non-feminist women would disagree with me. We've all been indoctrinated into thinking men can't control themselves, that having sex with many partners is a biological drive. We'll so's squatting in a field to take a shit. Men, are perfectly capable of changing, and changing the world. As a group they evidently choose not too and part of why is hanging on to, and justifying sexual entitlement.

[seabeyond]

24. thank you

"So I take it you think she gets a free pass because she willingly uses her body to make a buck?"

i think this attitude is becoming normalized among our youth of both gender. i think it is being promoted both socially, culturally. i hate to see our young buying into it, because though they say it is biologically innate, i think finding one and connecting is biologically innate. the opposite of what this promotes. thru a lifetime i have watched the strong majority of people of both gender work hard at connecting with one. that tells me there is an argument to the spread the seed bullshit.

i see this effecting our youth and their community and is a lifetime harm

i dont want this behavior normalized and a social reality because i think it causes illness int he society that will manifest.

i am watching our teenage girls buy into it, literally. i am watching our teenage boys booyah.... though it is to their determent.


"Women can't. Just. Get. Laid."

this is interesting. i was just hittin 20's in 80's. as were you. i really did not want a bf never mind marriage. i had sex when i wanted it. i think back then, it was more an equal gender than today. we had gotten thru the women being slutty outside of marriage thing and hadn't gotten to the porn age, all women are whores for men as we are today.

this is another something that has me bothered today. told hubby the other night watching something about playboy, damn good thing all us women are whores for you men. the abundance and all the time of porn, has made women, all women, whore for men

now

i know some would be bothered about the word. i think the word has its place. but i think it is different in this context then my brother calling me a whore because i had sex at 18.


"You know, it would kill my husband if I cheated on him, just kill him. He doesn't understand any part of the behavior."

16-17% of women cheat and 21% men. women hide it better and dont share their secret so could be higher than what we see. regardless that is a small percentage of people cheating. reality, logic alone shows this is not a have to, or norm. i have listened to too many men being cheated on and the hurt they feel. again, i dont see it as a gender issue.


"I also wanted to say about strippers, I don't need DU to get an opinion from a stripper. I just need to make a phone call, or two, or three. Plus I have practical experience. While they agree with some of what I've seen from the comments here, you talk to a sex worker one on one and you get a level of honesty I've NEVER seen at DU. And I hate being bullshitted about it."

i agree. i haven't been a part of the environment, but there have been different times in life where a X stripper has come into my life. it has always been the X stripper, and i hear it from that perspective. another issue i have when i listen to the glorification of that lifestyle. it does not jive with the reality i have heard.



thanks for your post ismnotwasm

[ismnotwasm]

25. Ok, I get it now I think

Let's call it The never ending battle between 'Princess barbie and 'Brats dolls'. What do our daughters choose? Well, a lot of them, with the apparent approval of their mothers, are choosing the 'Brats dolls'(not literally) They want to dress provocatively and act out sexually and call it freedom.

Not in this world that ain't. Not yet.

I read a feminist mothers' opinion one time saying maybe the princess choice wasn't so bad, if the only alternative was a male approved sexuality (false, mostly and leaves out a lot of sensuality, leads to destructive behaviors as well as the oddities such as far too women many STILL faking orgasms. I work with Clinical Nurse Specialists in the field, and the ones I talk to are a little stunned at how many women still fake it)

I think in many ways we're moving in the right direction, but we haven't taken control of our sexuality at all. What we've done is acquiesce to male opinion, males get their opinion from other males and the dominate media; it's a viscous cycle.

A friend of mine recently bought some art based on a erotic poem. I haven't seen it, but she describes it as two nude people, seated, the woman straddling the male. He's braiding her hair as a part of foreplay. I thought, now THERE is the difference between erotic and porn.

The basic question might just come down to how be be a fully sexual and sensual female creature without thinking sexy and sex is no more that a (fucking boring if you'll forgive the pun) mainstream porn standard.

[seabeyond]

27. "we haven't taken control of our sexuality at all."

this is what is making me so mad. not only, i think we have lost it.... again.

from my position, i saw in our time where females (i use females when i am talking both girls and women. i dont see 18 yr olds as women, though certainly sexual beings. i know i am suppose to. i dont. i know i am suppose to see a guy at 18 as a man, i dont), where well on there way to owning their sexuality.

a perfect example for explanation sake to the whole of culture today, with something simple to see.

victoria secret. vs was a company that was for women. it helped women to embrace their sexuality and sensuality. it allowed women to get beyond the shy and play in their sexuality. it was marketed and focused on women. empowering women and their sexuality.

in the late 90's it shifted. it became a product for men. it was to entice men. turn men on. for the men. sexualized women not for themselves any longer, but for men. it became the company that got men to say, .... hey honey, this one walking down the runaway meant to turn me on... this one, this is what i want you to wear.

it is no longer empowering women with her sexuality. it handed the empowerment to men.

that is what i feel happened in our sexuality.

us women were doing fine owning our sexuality. men were doing fine us owning our sexuality. and it shifted away from us and became for males.


and as far as your bratz, princess discussion. geez, there is so much in that. i have changed my parenting as far as this goes, today, with what my young sons are experiencing in this world. but i cant say it on du, and i cant say it in this forum. but it is the reality we live today.

[seabeyond]

19. i could probably keep posting on this post of yours. a couple things

we have a couple strippers on du, and i really value their honesting. no shying from. both have said something that stuck with me

one said... "you men, we dont respect you any more than you respect us. we are there to make a buck. we put on our game face and go out to earn money."

there is a conversation to be had in that comment.

another said. "people are trying to make strippin respectable. we dont want it respectable. we are in it cause it isnt respectable."

this, i value so very much. because, it is a person that made their choice and arent having to be coddled and it made into something it isnt. it is like rude pundit article the other day. it was to offend. he made damn sure it would offend. everything he said was an effort to offend. and people were offended. so many posters kept yelling, quit being offended. liten up. shouldnt be offended.

the whole purpose of the article was to offend. so he got what he wanted.

why make excuses. why say it is something it isnt. why create an illusion. it is, what it is.

[bliss_eternal]

20. you're certainly entitled to your opinion...

...but maybe you need to accept that several people here, disagree with you on this issue. i know my stance. you can link articles til the sun comes up, you won't change my mind. again, you're entitled.

just know that if you call women names here, (i.e. trash) women are going to call you on it.

as one that goes on about "personal responsibility" i'd expect you to accept, and understand that...even if you don't necessarily understand it, or agree.

if i want to see women called names, i know exactly where on du to go, and see it.
this isn't one of the places i expect to see that. :(

[seabeyond]

21. it is called a discussion board. i am discussing. what makes you think i "need"

to accept. that i dont accept. and simply dont agree. what exactly are women not agreeing with me on this subject? not clear what we disagree with. are you saying the women see that a woman who screws a married man knowingly has NO ownership in that behavior? it is acceptable for women to purposely go after married men? do they get a star for fucking a married man?

there is an article discussing this subject. i would like input on this article. you tell me... doesnt matter, not gonna read, not gonna discuss. fine. dont. others may.

trash is a non gender word. are you suggesting cause this is feminism forum we dont discuss bad behavior of women? it is only coddle, protect, victim that we are?

[bliss_eternal]

26. you are assuming a lot.

which is unfortunate. you assume that those that request others not call women names, based on their behavior are somehow excluding them from responsibility. that's your opinion, and your choice--but it doesn't mean that's what is going on here.

also...

imo, you seem to be personalizing this a great deal.
not sure what that's about, but--you're entitled to that as well.

i'd appreciate it if you didn't call women's name here (i.e. trash).
that's my issue. :) there's really nothing else to discuss, as far as i'm concerned.

take care.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bliss_eternal]

30. ................

:eyes:

[ismnotwasm]

31. Jesus

What women behave like is not the point in a feminist discussion. The point is WHY. Calling women names can be considered lateral violence. Women are part of the human condition, of course, but they are NOT dominate, and they certainly don't make gender rules.


"Low life" scum is pretty goddam harsh

[Bunny]

2. Women are supposed to have an unwritten covenant to stay away

from each other's men. We have to agree as a sisterhood that men are idiots who can't be trusted to resist the wiles of another woman, any woman, so it's up to us to make sure we do nothing to encourage attention from another woman's man. Rather than expect a man to honor his vows, women have to enforce that behavior, for the good of married couples everywhere. So, if your man steps out on you, it's obviously the fault of that whore who sunk her claws into him. Again, absolving men of their responsibility. It's really quite insulting to women AND men.

[bliss_eternal]

7. LOL!

This made me laugh...!

Quote:
So, if your man steps out on you, it's obviously the fault of that whore who sunk her claws into him.

Of course, you're right--it's insulting to both sexes.
It irritates me immensely, the names women are called in these scenarios. I appreciate your displaying that w/such humour.

[iris27]

3. It's more bullshit stereotyping at work.

"Men are animals." "A man is only as faithful as his options." That sort of crap. Basically it's the mindset that all men are scum and will hop right on the first pretty girl to show interest in them...so it's up to us women to keep away from married men out of solidarity for all womankind, or something like that.

IMO, they're both scum. I have nothing but dripping contempt for my serial cheater, married-three-times-and-currently-divorced father, and I rarely speak to him. I have a slightly lessened, but still healthy dose of disdain for my ex-stepmom, the latest of the three wives, who has ONLY ever dated married men since divorcing the father of her kids in 1989. Before it was my dad, it was the Cubmaster of the Scout group at our church...before that it was the principal of our parochial school...and so on. After my dad, it's a doctor that she works with...at least *his* kids are grown and out of the house. I still love her, but it does piss me off that she doesn't even *try* to date unattached men.

[bliss_eternal]

5. glad you mentioned this...

...and btw, i'm so sorry that your family experienced it at all. :hug:

but, the phenomena of the individuals (in this case, women) that ONLY date and/or make themselves available for attached people.
:(:mad:

for the longest time, i thought it was a myth created to scare people into watching daytime talk shows.
in time, i realized there are people of both sexes with comittment issues, who only want to be w/someone they can't really have. even when (or if) they eventually end up w/that person (because they leave their spouse for them) it rarely works out, it seems. as they haven't worked through their issues. :crazz:

[ismnotwasm]

4. Funny you mention Angela Jolie

In all the trash magazines she is *still* the bad one, the home wrecker, and poor Jen, but just look at how hot she is now with her nobabymakin' body. The trash magazines, which cater to a large population, drool over the fact that maybe, just maybe Angela might be gettin' a little jealous.

This situation was, HOW many fucking years ago? And were we inside their there homes, their bedrooms? And we're, via the trash magazines, NOT letting it go? We don't mention the philanthropy of Angela Jolie or Brad Pitt, their activism, any of the good they try to do. (not that they're perfect, but then who is?) It's all about that smokin' hot homewrecker and the lovelorn Jen, who desperately is trying to Win. Brad. Back

A soup opera, yes indeed. I bet all parties are grateful for the free publicity, but if I was Anistan, I'd be a little bit pissed and a little bit humiliated being presented in 'poor Jen' role all the time. I don't like her movies, but I understand that she is a charming Comedienne, and a very hard worker.

And Pitt, he just sits on the sidelines and looks goofy. Blameless, while the inside view world looks for the proverbial cat fight, Between Two Hot Chicks.

Sexism in our modern media. How many forms exactly does it take I wonder?

[bliss_eternal]

6. great point...

...about none of us being there. yet we've all seen people discuss this stuff, like they are bf's w/those involved. :eyes:
or at least sitting in their bedrooms watching as it all played out.

reminds me of another similar situation.
remember america's sweetheart, BEFORE sandra bullock took over the title? that angelic faced blonde, meg ryan? who was taken from the throne because ---shudders--- she did the nasty, with the hunky russell crowe while on location for a film....while her long-suffering hubby was none the wiser. ooooh the shame of it all!

everywhere you looked, meg ryan's name was dirt. how dare she cheat on poor dennis quaid?! how could she?
suddenly everyone forgot the years she stood by him, while he abused drugs. suddenly, she was a lying, cheating whore!

what no one knew was, they were legally separated at the time. a fact she and dennis were trying to keep private for the sake of their son. clearly something ya' just can't do, when you're a celebrity--with people feelin' all entitled to your buisiness, and shit.

no one probably remembers that shit storm. but it was bad.
meg ryan was probably grateful for angelina hitting the scene, as everyone forgot why they were supposed to hate meg.

[wildflower]

9. I had forgotten that

There's the Edwards situation as well. A lot of people seem to want to put the blame only on Rielle Hunter.

[bliss_eternal]

10. another one. .

how could i forget? good example, btw. :)

but of course, it's Rielle Hunter's fault.
didn't you know she gave edwards rufi's, sucker punched him and carried him baby tantrum style, back to her seduction lair, where the wicked woman vamped him over and over, deeming him powerless to her super slutty ways?

:eyes:

[seabeyond]

13. this is my point. i did not hear one woman say it is all hunters fault and edward is an innocent

when people of both gender said hunter had a part in it though, i often saw response saying, ... what about edwards? as if talking about hunters part excluded edwards responsibility.

no one said it did,

[jmm]

12. That's who I first thought of when I read this thread.

I'll never understand how Rielle was suppose to keep John's wedding vows. She knowingly helped him live a lie so I don't think she's a saint but she wasn't a succubus who made him be unfaithful.

[bliss_eternal]

16. lol!

:spray: you said, "succubus."
which always makes me think of that south park episode! :rofl:

[ismnotwasm]

29. And as I thought

(Speaking of 'succubus') I am having a blast with "The Women's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets by Ms. Barbara Walker;

Succubus;

"Medieval Christian notion of the lascivious she-demon anciently called Lamia, Hora, Daughter of Hecate, Daughter of Lilith, Empusa, etc. She copulated with men in their dreams and sucked out the essence of their souls (semen). Nocturnal emissions were always attributed to the attentions of she-demons who "cause men to dream of erotic encounters with women, so the succubae and receive their emission and make therefrom a new spirit."

A common name for a succubus was Brizo, after the Greek goddess of sleep whose title came from brizein, "to enchant," and referred to a special kind of incubation known as brizomancy. Like Babylon's dream-goddess Nanshe, Brizo brought prophetic dreams which were subsequently identified as "wet" dreams."


History both ancient and modern, is chalk full of blaming women for everything, (And I mean everything--projection much?) but the older stuff, as funny as it sounds to us today, also has a huge, probably incalculable effect on all cultures today.

If I had time, I'd do a word of the day or something. This is great stuff. (Semen as the "essence" of men's souls makes me giggle, can't help it)

[ThomCat]

32. Wow.

I'm so clueless about celebrities, I didn't know Meg Ryan was ever with Denis Quaid. I didn't know she ever slept with Russel Crowe and ended up some kind of scandal over it.

Sandra Bullock is America's sweetheart?

It's my own fault for never reading any of the tabloids. I'm totally clueless. :shrug: