Why did Henry VIII want a son so desparately?

[bleedingheart]

Personally I think this can be traced directly to his father Henry VII who had successfully ended the War of the Roses by marrying Elizabeth of York. Henry VII most likely raised both of his sons (Arthur and Henry) to understand that their first duty was to secure a strong succession to the throne. If I recall there were even some episodes during Henry VIII reign regarding those who felt their right to reign was stronger than his...

Now Henry did have a healthy girl child, Mary to his wife Catherine of Aragon. But Henry's probably thought it wasn't a viable solution since there had been no English Queen since Henry II's mother, Mathilda, had claimed her throne and then been dethroned because she wasn't all that well liked by the English nobles.

Sadly for her, he didn't even try to marry her to someone acceptable, perhaps using her more as a bargaining chip.

For the same reasons Elizabeth, his second daughter, was ignored...all in the quest for a son.

Sadly he got a son but he also managed to create a religous turmoil that wasn't really settled for quite some time past the reign of even his daughter Elizabeth. I do sometimes think that the "partying/spending" that Henry liked to participate in also helped "rationalize" his stripping the Roman Church of its holdings in England.

[Mist]

1. Henry the VIII was born soon after the Wars of the Roses

which were waged, on and off, for 25 years or so. Henry Tudor, his father, who became Henry VII, didn't have all that strong a claim to the throne. There were others who could have put forth claims just as strong as his. It was a group run by Henry's step-father who threw the battle to Henry's side. Therefore H 7 raised both his sons to be very sensitive to maintaining their "right" to the throne, which would include the importance of heirs. A female heir would bring the danger of her husband taking over ruling the country. The concept of a husband being only a consort (such as Victoria's Albert, or Queen Elizabeth II's Prince Philip) didn't exist at the time. I don't know if H VIII refused to pursue marriage for Mary--I think several things fell through, then, when he wanted to marry Anne Boleyn, Mary was officially made a bastard, and unmarriageable to a foreign ruling house. Of course, she married, once her father was dead, and she could "unbastardize" herself!

[Astarho]

2. Royal lines were traced through the male line

and a female heir could mean the end of a line. Of course having royal predecessors on both sides was always a plus.
Like the other reply said, the idea of a husband as a royal consort was alien to the time and Henry's line would have (and did) ended with a female heir.

[Zuni]

7. That was before Mary and Elizabeth I

and a Queen had never been recognized. I think Henry I or II left his daughter in power but she was quickly removed and a man put in her place

[bleedingheart]

12. Henry I 's daughter Matilda was kicked off the throne

it was her son Henry II who gained it back with the aid of his wife's fortune...Eleanor of Aquitaine.

[bobbieinok]

18. war between Mathilda and Stephen is the period of Ellis Peters'

Brother Caedfael mysteries......my first intro to the period

[JNelson6563]

3. Basic fear of losing dynastic power

Katherine and Henry actually achieved 8 pregnancies but only Mary survived. Throw in Ann Boleyn's clever manipulation of Henry and Voila! You have the nightmare that is Henry's first divorce. Remember too that the pope at the time was captive to Catherine's nephew so Henry had a major strike against him when it came to "justice" in the papal courts.

Cromwell brilliantly swooped in to exploit the dismantling of the church in England.

Julie

[radric]

4. Being a one-time member of the Richard III Society..

I proclaim that Henry VII was a vile usurper!!

[JNelson6563]

5. I have to say

that Henry's penchant for propaganda makes me really question the role history says Richard played in events of the time. Henry was very shrewd and wiley.

Julie

[Zuni]

6. Actually, Edward the IV's son

was the rightful heir
Richard III has more legitimacty than Henry VII though

[Matilda]

8. I'm very pleased to meet you.

My mother gave me Josephine Tey's book The Daughter of Time when I
was in my teens, and after reading it, I read further on Richard.

I don't think he was a saint, but he was a good soldier, a fine
administrator beloved by the people of York, and totally loyal to
his brother.

I also think Henry VII was a usurper (and a most unpleasant man), but
through him England got Elizabeth, surely one of the most brilliant
monarchs of all time. So something good came from the Tudors.

[fudge stripe cookays]

11. My mom loves that book.

Have you read any of Thomas Costain's books on that subject? The Last Plantagenets or the Three Edwards? She reads them over and over again.

I did a book report on the Tey in high school.

FSC

[Matilda]

13. No, I haven't, but I've read other Thomas Costain books

and enjoyed them.

My local library doesn't have much by him, so I should check out
Amazong.

Thanks for the recommendations.

[bobbieinok]

17. Daughter of Time... absolutely fabulous book; good intro to the

complexities of history

[Gemini Cat]

14. Thank-you!

Henry VII was a vile usurper! He was also cheap asshole, but that's beside the point.
He was probably responsible for the death of Edward V and his brother Richard as well.

[Matilda]

15. I'm inclined to think that way too.

After all, the rest of the family disappeared one way or the other
under his rule and that of his son.

[JNelson6563]

19. You make some interesting points

that are worth discussion:

Henry VII was a vile usurper!

He did have pretty tenuous claims, hence his marriage to Elizabeth.

He was also cheap asshole, but that's beside the point.

He was pretty wise in this respect. He didn't muddle in affairs abroad very much, avoided costly war when possible and wasn't too big on a lavish lifestyle. The result of this parsimony was the coffers of the kingdom were probably fuller than ever before at Henry VIII's coronation.

He was probably responsible for the death of Edward V and his brother Richard as well.

Why do you think he was behind Edward's death? I hadn't reached that conclusion. There's no doubt he won the throne by conquest and spent the rest of his reign trying to discourage others from doing the same.

Julie

[Matilda]

16. I've thought a lot about Richard's position after the death of his brother

I think he had to take the throne - after the strife of the Wars of
the Roses, England couldn't afford to have a boy king; they needed
a strong adult male.

I think Richard knew that Antony Rivers had the trust of Edward (V),
and given the ambition of the Woodvilles, he would have constantly
been plotting against Richard as Protector to gain power through
the boy. Edward and Richard had to be removed - by which I mean
declared illegitimate, as they were (an excuse, but a convenient one)
so that Richard could work to make the kingdom secure.

I don't think he had them killed, I really don't think it was in his
nature from what I've read, but I do think he'd thought it all out
carefully, and did what he had to for good reason.

But I wonder if even that was too much for his conscience to bear -
perhaps he saw the deaths of his wife and son as omens, because he
seemed to lose the will to live. Trusting Stanley at Bosworth was
like an act of suicide.

He was such a tragic figure - I find his story quite heartbreaking.

[Matilda]

9. One good thing he did for his daughers was to educate them.

They had the finest tutors available, and were given a classical
education equal to that of any prince, and his niece Lady Jane Grey
was included when it was realised how bright she was.

It was unusual for a man who was such a chauvinist, but it certainly
paid off with Elizabeth, who had one of the best intellects of any
monarch ever.

[Feathered Fish]

10. The Great Chain of Being

Not something that people liked to upset. Within the family unit, common and royal, the youngest female was at the bottom.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

20. Ironically, the long awaited son, Edward VI, died

while still in his teens, so the male line came to an end anyway.