Tridentine Mass vs. Novus Ordo

[AngryOldDem]

I know this can be a controversial topic, but I don't mean it to be. In case you haven't read my introduction on another thread here, I am a convert who came into the Church in 1990.

I lurk on another Internet board and lately there has been quite a lively discussion about the Latin Mass vs. the modern, vernacular Mass instituted after Vatican II. Some say that the loss of the Latin Mass marked the start of a general "loss of respect" for the faith in general, which led (like a slippery slope, I guess) to most of the current problems the Church faces today. Others say that those who want the Latin Mass reinstituted are merely nostalgic for the past, that the Latin Mass fostered a sense of isolated, personal devotion counter to the inclusiveness and participation that Vatican II wanted to instill.

My question to those who know: What are your thoughts on the Latin Mass? Did the Church lose something here with Vatican II, or was this change a good thing as we look back over 40 years?

There is one church in my city that has permission to conduct a Tridentine Mass. I am giving some thought to attending because I admit I am kind of intrigued by this.

[Beer Snob-50]

1. this can be a very controversial topic

I don't see how this is not respecting the faith. It is allowing everyone to understand and appreciate what is happening in the Mass and allowing all to participate. Vatican 2 was a wonderful thing. I believe the consecreation (sp)to be a beautiful prayer and it is something we wouldn't appreciate unless we understood it. Saying this, I heard an album of latin hymns the other day and they were beautiful.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

2. I prefer the post-Vatican II mass.

I feel that mass is a very spiritual thing. I don't think people can possibly get as much out of it if they don't participate in it. Latin mass is beautiful and I do occasionally go to one, to appreciate the beauty of the mass as an art. However, there is something equally beautiful about seeing even the youngest children being able to participate.

I sometimes fear that prayers are said in such a way that they are merely "form letters" signed. I am guilty of doing this sometimes. The prayer is uttered but there is no thought in it. As Claudius said, in my favorite shakespeare line ever "my words fly up, my thoughts remain below, words without thoughts never to heaven go". I think that having the mass in a different language will add to the probability that this will occur.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

3. Also, I believe that the less ordered mass is a return to the original

masses. The very first christian/Catholic masses were merely gatherings of people discussing their faith and praying together.

[Princess Turandot]

4. I have no issue with Mass being said in the local language..

that changed when I was in grammar school, I think. I did like the Latin Mass, but I also like polyphony music and gregorian chant. Our missals had the english words next to the Latin, so people would know what the words meant. If your priest had a 'good delivery', a high mass could be quite entrancing. But I think the change to local languages was a good thing, although I admit to never becoming truly comfortable with the 'sign of peace' stuff. The most attended Mass at the church that I went to as a child, which way back when had a large Polish-American congregation, and now once again has a large congregation of Polish immigrants, is a high mass at noon, done in Polish, complete with a chorus. They have people standing in the vestibule for that mass.

I'm trying to remember if we sang hymns when the Mass was in Latin!
I think we didn't, except perhaps at Christmas?

I know that from time to time, if I'm feeling stressed and go on 'auto-prayer', what always comes to mind is "Kyrie Eleison, Christe Eleison, Kyrie Eleison", not "God have mercy, Christ have mercy.."

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

5. I go to Tridentine masses every couple of months fro I find them excedingl

beautiful. But I also love the Novo Ordo. I wish people could see the high Latin Mass for a taste of its majesty - but I don't get hung up on the "Vatican II is the death of our Church" mindset!

[Stunster]

6. My 2 cents

When I started as an altar boy, the Mass was the Tridentine one:

Priest: Introibo ad altare Dei
Server: Ad Deum qui laetificat juventutem meam

That brings back memories!

I do think there is a whole different spirituality associated with that rite compared to the post-Vatican II rite. In the old rite, many people did not bother to follow the Mass as such, but simply went to pray and say their devotions (rosaries, novenas to saints, etc) while Mass was being celebrated. So Mass tended to be a private, individualistic experience----you went to personally adore and pray to God---rather than a communal worship one. Also in those days, it was not common for everyone to receive Communion. My dad went to Mass every Sunday for decades, but took Communion only once a year. Among men especially, that was not uncommon. One had to be in a state of grace, and there was a strong link between confession and Communion. One also had to fast beforehand, and so there was a lot more reverence, and maybe even fear, associated with reception of the Eucharist.

Of course, the Eucharist grows out of the disciples' last meal with Jesus, and so one can ask, what kind of Eucharist is it where most people don't receive Christ under the appearances of bread and wine? He said, "Do this in memory of me"--and for centuries the Mass was celebrated very frequently without the reception of the sacrament by the people attending it. That doesn't seem to model that last meal in such a case. Also, how does private individual devotion during Mass model us collectively as Body of Christ?

Though I personally like the Tridentine Mass, I like it not for spiritual or theological reasons, but for aesthetic ones, and I recognize that the former sorts of reason ought to take priority over my personal aesthetics. That's no reason why one should not try to celebrate the new rite as beautifully as possible.

A couple of other brief observations: the new rite is actually much closer to the way the Mass was celebrated in the early Church. And Latin, at one time (in what is now a large portion of Italy) *was* the vernacular.

[sandnsea]

7. You should go

If for no other reason than to celebrate tradition. I'm big on tradition, it's part of the glue that holds communities together. I like that Mass is in English too, though. Including local customs in Mass isn't new, that's how we have different Saints playing larger roles and ways of celebrating dependent on the culture. I don't like the holding hands stuff and some of that sort of thing much. If I wanted that, I'd go to a protestant church.

[DemBones DemBones]

8. True story: a friend sometimes travels for business reasons

with a Baptist. On one of their trips, the Baptist decided to attend Mass with my friend. Afterwards, asked about her reaction to the Mass, the Baptist said it was fine except of course she couldn't understand the Latin. . .

Yes, it was Novus Ordo. In English. Classic example of hearing what you expect to hear, or maybe of just closing off your ears to avoid hearing anything at all. I'm not sure if my friend ever told her. ;-)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

9. If an Episcopalian may butt in with a similar story

One of my grad school classmates invited a Baptist friend to attend an Easter High Mass, fully sung, with lots of incense, at an Anglo-Catholic parish.

Afterwards, the Baptist remarked, "I thought it was really beautiful, but what were those yo-yo's with smoke coming out of them?"

[DemBones DemBones]

12. That's priceless, and please butt in anytime, Lydia. We had a

discussion about whether this group should be for Anglo-Catholics, too, and everybody thought it should, and for anyone who wants to discuss anything about Catholic or Orthodox Christianity, so long as axes to be ground are left outside.

[bobbieinok]

10. from a baptist......I've been told by Catholic friends that the Latin mass

united the church around the world.....where ever in the world a Catholic might be, the mass would be the same/home/familiar

I find that concept intriguing......is there any validity to it?

the first time I was in Germany (62), I often went to Catholic mass, especially in Bavaria.....a really different world for me

[DemBones DemBones]

11. Yes, that's true, and is still true today except that

Mass is said in many languages now. The prayers and the Bible readings are the same worldwide. Of course the hymns and homilies vary from church to church and there are different options for the prayers said by the priest, with most priests sticking to one set of prayers all the time. It is exciting to know that the same prayers are being said throughout the world. There's some of this universality in some Protestant churches, too, but I can't say which churches have this.

I went to Baptist Sunday School and church a lot when I was growing up. Memorized a whole bunch of Bible verses, earned lots of little pins, sang "This Little Light of Mine"! :-) Much more homey than a Latin Mass in Bavaria, I'd think, but I was always drawn to the majesty of the ritual in the Catholic Church, and in my grandmother's Episcopal Church.