Kerry and McCain Get Into It

[fedupinBushcountry]

Tom Hayden Bio Blog Index RSS
11.10.2005
Kerry and McCain Get Into It (10 comments )
READ MORE: Iraq, 2006, George W. Bush

A glimmer of actual debate over Iraq is emerging in the US senate between two U.S. Vietnam War heroes, John McCain and John Kerry.

McCain, in a speech today, unfortunately called for more troops to be sent into the meatgrinder of Iraq, endorsing a new theory among insiders that safe havens, or "oil stains", must first be established before they can spread.
The theory, which assumes that millions of Iraqis are just waiting to take cover under the umbrella of foreign occupation, is more likely to leave blood stains -- both American and Iraqi -- than islands of stability.

Politically, the hawish McCain speech "balances" his sharp attacks on U.S. policies of torture, and puts both the president and the Hillary Clinton-Joe Biden Democrats on the spot.

McCain's speech was critical of Kerry, who two weeks ago proposed a political settlement joined to a 12-15 month withdrawal.

Kerry says McCain "mischaracterizes" his views. Kerry wants the 20,000 troops recently sent for the Dec. 15 elections to be withdrawn immediately afterwards, while McCain wants them to stay and grow in number. Kerry argues that McCain's plan for escalation "only exacerbates the sense of American occupation."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-hayden/kerry-and-mccain-get-into_b_10455.html

[Noisy Democrat]

1. I'm so glad McCain is taking on Kerry

As I posted in a giddy vein on the thread "I hate my senators<" --

I went and looked at Google News for McCain. Lots and lots of articles headlining the fact that McCain CALLS FOR 10,000 MORE TROOPS. Just when most of the country wants to get the hell out of there. And best of all, 3 out of 4 articles I looked at highlighted the fact that McCain was blasting Kerry's plan, and had lengthy quotes from Kerry's speeches and rebuttal on his plan. This is great publicity for Kerry. Lots more people will read about Kerry's proposal who missed it the first time, and in Kerry's own words. C'mon, McCain, hit Kerry some more -- he's big, he can take it!

[TayTay]

2. I sensed this coming this morning when I first read that McCain

was going to give a speech on this today. (And KG had told us yesterday about Kerry's floor speech to come.) I was dying for this. We need to have a full airing of all the ideas surrounding what to do in Iraq. I am just thrilled that this has happened. (Okay, partly because I distrust Sen. McCain and I think he is going to take a lot of grief for this. Hehehehehehe)

Hey, did anyone notice that today's debate was held largely without mentioning * much. We mentioned McCain and other people going forward. I am really beginning to realize how irrelevant * is now. Today it was Kerry and McCain duking it out. * was just not in the discussion much. (In terms of making plans. I know he is the one who screwed everything up originally. He is not seen as the one who can get us out of Iraq or even propose a new idea about Iraq that is helpful.)

[Noisy Democrat]

4. I go far beyond just distrusting McCain

I originally voted for him in the primary in 2000 (Democrats can vote in Republican primaries in Michigan), but when I saw him on the Tonight Show a couple weeks later or thereabouts, I got a very, very creepy feeling about him. He's a very strange character, and I don't mean that in the sense of "charmingly offbeat."

[beachmom]

7. You're right, Tay Tay.

Although McCain put in the obligatory nice things to say about *, his plan was just as much a rebellion against the president as Kerry's. * said he absolutely does not want to put more troops in there, because then people would think "we'd be there forever" (sorry, Mr. Pres. but people already think that now, but I digress) Now there are roughly 5 Iraq War positions:

Escalate the war with more troops (McCain)
Maintain the status quo (Bush)
Timetable withdrawal (Feingold)
Withdrawal based on political benchmarks (Kerry)
Withdraw now (Anti-war movement - Cindy Sheehan)

I have to say, I hate McCain's plan the most. No more troops. No f**king way. It doesn't work. The Brits did it in Iraq to put down an insurgency (a TON of troops), but long term it was a failure. Kerry's is the best (and I'm not biased - ha, ha) because it's flexible and emphasizes diplomacy and politics instead of killing.

[Noisy Democrat]

11. Thank you for that excellent summary

I may steal it when I do a diary for DailyKos (which will not be tonight, because I've just drunk half a bottle of very nice dessert wine and want to make sure I'm possessed of all my faculties before I post my next pro-Kerry diary to DKos -- though a few stiff drinks might be helpful when I read the comments afterwards :) )

[beachmom]

3. I like this Tom Hayden guy. He wrote a nice post about JK 2 weeks ago

Trust me, people. Do NOT read the comments. They're vile, and should be ignored. Just like DU.

Today was a good day for Kerry. He is a light shining on all the darkness around us.

[TayTay]

5. Forgive me a chuckle.

This is not meant at your expense, but rather to remind me that I have lived through a good deal of time. Tom Hayden was a big and vocal Student leader against the Vietnam War in the '60's. He was/i(is?) a California State Assemblyman and a good liberal. (He was also Jane Fonda's second husband, I think. I saw the both of them come to Boston College and speak many years ago. They were very good together.)

I just liked the way you wrote, 'this Tom Hayden guy.' It is an amusing phrase, cuz I'm getting older. (No snark on you.)

[Noisy Democrat]

6. I had a similar giggle

I'm 44 and originally from California.

[_dynamicdems]

18. Remembering what others have to read in history books makes

me feel old, but richer for the er, experience. LOL!

Hayden was an activist from way back. He was one of the infamous Chicago Seven with Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Ruben.

[kerrygoddess]

8. LOL! Tom Hayden!

The Number 1 spokesperson for the anti-war movement for decades - as Tay Tay pointed out.

I am so glad stepped up again and is talking about this on Huffington. The rest of the liberal blogosphere ought to be ashamed for their silence after all the complaints that we need a plan to get out.

Screw the comments.

[Noisy Democrat]

9. Poll on McCain's proposal

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20051110195709990019

Right now 50% support sending more troops, 50% are against. I find these numbers a bit fishy.

[karynnj]

25. I think aol verses to the right - at least that's what I was told about

their message boards.

[TayTay]

12. The comments are irrelevant.

What matters is that important voices with resonance are starting to talk about this. (The Huffington Post has been a bit harsh on Sen. Kerry. I am glad that Tom Hayden is balancing the scales by noting this important development.)

I think this will build over the weekend. It is Veteran's Day and that along is pause to think about war and it's consequences. And there is an important discussion scheduled for Monday afternoon about more amendments on Iraq. And unless I mis-heard, Sen. Kerry is planning on having something to say about those as well. It should be an intersting weekend on the talk shows. (Well, Kerry and McCain should come up as a topic, don't ya think?)

Oh, and Happy Birthday again KG! Hope it's a great one! You deserve it!

[beachmom]

13. Well, guys, I'm laughing now, too. Because prior to we'll say

1992 or so when McCain and Kerry went to Vietnam to solve the MIA/POW thing, I had never heard of John Kerry either.

But the music from the '60s -- THAT I know very well. I can recite from memory that Country Joe and the Fish song -- you know 1,2,3 what are we fighting for? I'm Fixin' to Die Rag, I think it's called. But names of movement leaders? No. I'm not so good.

Actually, you guys are making me feel good. Because I've been feeling old lately, and now I find out that I'm a political virgin (remember, Tay Tay) and I also am too young to remember the good old days in the '60s.

[TayTay]

14. So where we all once, my dear

so were we all. (I do hope I wasn't harsh about this. It just was one of those, gee I'm getting old. I have different cultural touchstones' moments.)

You are not one of the kids and I don't want to be a greybeard. (Oh dear, wrong gender, wrong image and my husband just won't like it.)

[jenndar]

10. Check out his bio.

Tom Hayden is fantastic, a real humanitarian. Have you ever read the Port Huron Statement?

I've been a fan of Hayden's writings since before I was a fan of Senator Kerry, so every time Hayden speaks out for the Senator, I get so, SO happy.

And you're right about the comments on his blog - people living in a fantasy world who can't forgive JK for not having a magical key for fixing the country's problems. It makes me feel sorry for Hayden - they reflect pretty badly on him, I'm afraid.

[kerrygoddess]

16. Hayden's website

http://www.tomhayden.com/

I love Tom Hayden. Been a big fan for decades. It's awesome that he's been speaking up for JK. We need more to do the same.

[jenndar]

21. Yay, thanks!

I've been to the site before, but not recently. Good stuff.

I love the way Senator Kerry seems to attract the admiration of people like Hayden - people who have really made an effort to make a difference in the world. I try to remember that when some useless pundit takes a stab at him.

[_dynamicdems]

15. This is good for Senator Kerry.

Let the country see just exactly out-of-touch McCain is. It's news when these two go head-to-head and JK needs a little coverage.

Undoubtedly, Senator Kerry is getting a measure of satisfaction taking on the good "friend" who stabbed him in the back last year. Good! What goes around...

And this will probably kill McCain's chances to run in 2008. Not that he would have had much of a chance, but this will put the nail in the coffin.

[sandrakae]

17. I wish Kerry would just sucker punch that Hypocrite.

I hate John McCain and it always bothers me when the media refers to them as friends. John McCain trashed John Kerry after the election and even had the audacity to call him up on election night and then whine to the media that Kerry did not return his call. Maybe that is the night Kerry suddenly realized what at hypocrite he is.

[_dynamicdems]

20. LOLOL!

I hear ya! McCain is a horse's butt.

[wisteria]

22. You are absolutely correct. Hypocrite through and through! n/t

[karynnj]

26. He called ON election might?

Seeing his behavior during the campaign, you would think he would either wait till the Senate was reconvened or perhaps call a day before saying he wanted to talk privately to make it less awkward on the Senate floor.

[rox63]

27. I suspect McCain and Kerry are still friends

It happens all the time in the House and Senate. People who are miles apart politically can become fast friends. That doesn't mean they can't also be fierce opponents on issues where they disagree. They understand that this is politics, and they each have to look out for their own survival, as well as please their constituents.

I was pissed about McCain kissing up to * during the 2004 campaign. I lost the little respect I had for him over that. And I'm sure that Kerry wasn't real happy about it either, because most people know that McCain personally despises *. But I understand why he did it. McCain was also running for reelection to his Senate seat in 2004. If he had dissed * too much, he would have gotten no support from the RNC for his campaign.

It's politics. These things happen. Then they go and have a beer together and work things out. Because tomorrow, they may have to work together on a bill they are co-sponsoring.

[karynnj]

30. I wonder what friendship in that political world

even really means. It was clear from comments each made that there was mutual respect and that they each clearly saw some real good in the other. Also, they may have seen where they could use the best talents of each other to get good work done. That they were very different might actually have helped in this.

While I assume they can and will work together, I doubt they are friends at this point. There was no need for McCain to inentionally distort Kerry's proposal - especially when he knows he can get 100s of times the media Kerry can. I assume Kerry would have tried speaking to him in the Senate or on the phone before basicaly calling him a liar in the Senate record. It is very clear that the entire Bush administration wants to distort Kerry's record, it's unlikely that McCain is simply mistaken. The lie also connects to the RW echo chambers attempts to again smear Kerry's character.

There is no Bush campaign now. McCain is doing this for himself and it's not very pretty. It might also be that Iraq openned the wound each had tried to close - Kerry and McCain, stand at opposite ends again.

[jillan]

19. My favorite part of Kerry's speech today

courtesy of Kerrygoddess' blog

The plan I have offered would correct our course. The speech Sen. McCain delivered does not,” Kerry said today.

“I disagree with my friend Sen. McCain’s mischaracterization of my plan to succeed in Iraq and bring our troops home within a reasonable timeframe.


Give 'em hell KERRY!

I'm ecstatic that Kerry gave it right back to him.

[JI7]

23. i would like to see Kerry and McCain get into a real debate

i mean the type where they are together with a back and forth exchange with each other.

[karynnj]

28. I would love to see that

McCain is quick and articulate unlike Bush and Kerry is Kerry.

I wonder if it would reach the level of the Kerry/Weld debates that the MA people have talked of. It would also be good as McCain seems to be slamming Kerry when he's not there. When sane, rational, solid, articulate Kerry is standing right there he would have trouble with this.

Unfortunately, I don't see the gain for McCain in doing it. Maybe if Kerry challanges him to do it

[kerrygoddess]

24. Tom Hayden is Listening

When Tom Hayden speaks, the anti-war movement listens. Recently, Tom Hayden has been rather vocal about John Kerry’s call to for a plan to get out of Iraq. More succinctly, Hayden has been supportive of Kerry’s plan. Obviously, Tom Hayden is listening.

http://blog.thedemocraticdaily.com/?p=1124

[jenndar]

29. This is up on Yahoo now

If anyone wnats to rec it: http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20051111/cm_huffpost/010455_200511110123

[blm]

31. Can you post this in GD? They need to see how Hayden is seeing this come

down.

[beachmom]

32. Hey -- Andrew Sullivan is referring to McCain as HIS Shadow President

Sully is totally for the war. His beef with * has always been the running of the war and torture, of course. But I still felt a twinge of hurt when I heard him refer to McCain as his shadow president, praising McCain's new war plan for Iraq.

But then I realized it was another reason to smile. Kerry is our shadow president. McCain is now Andrew's shadow president. And there are other shadow presidents out there, too, for everyone of different persuasions. The point is that everybody seems to be a president except, whoops, the one who has the title. Lame duck doesn't BEGIN to describe *. Maybe he should just go the ranch for the rest of the term, and the Senate can duke it out on what to do.