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Pantheistic paganism for the unbeliever

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toddaa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 10:25 PM
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Pantheistic paganism for the unbeliever
I am a pantheistic Taoist. That means I lean towards the philosophical side of Taoism and don't buy into all the religious trappings of ch'i, external alchemy and the bazillion gods within the Taoist pantheon.

I am basically an atheist at heart. Some would say that's a cop out, but I find nature mystifying enough without adding extra supernatural trappings. This, I believe, is the way of the Tao. Still, I want something more to connect me with the universe. Taoism teaches that by letting go and Doing Nothing (wu wei) one will become closer to the Eternal Tao. In meditation, the goal is to empty the mind, lose the self, and reconnect with the One.

This is all admirable, but Taoism did not survive for 2500 years by just quieting the mind. Taoist (and Zen) priests recognized that ritualism is a vital form of mediation that forces the mind to quiet itself and let the body act without thought. But I am not in China and Western Taoists practicing the intricate and incredibly detailed alchemic rituals of Taoist priests are few and far between.

So here's my question, is there a branch of paganism that a misguided skeptic, like myself, would find comfortable belonging to where the rituals are recognized as symbolic?
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 01:11 AM
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1. Your own branch
Why not create your own branch? I am a solitary witch, with Hellenistic leanings, but I dabble in all kinds of things. I set my own philosophy and do what comes naturally to me. You sound pretty grounded, so why not create your own rituals by adapting from others. Take what you need/want and leave out what you feel does not contribute to your path. Just my humble opinion.
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LibertyLover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:21 PM
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2. Agreed
Behind the Aegis has the best answer for you - it's your own branch. Go for it. That is the best thing about paganism - it's very elastic.
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LisaLynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 09:06 AM
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3. I think I understand what you're saying.
In a very broad sense, I think I have been there myself. To me, what you're saying is that

I was there with Paganism for a long time. I just wasn't comfortable with all the reutilization. It felt wrong to me. I have sense come to the conclusion that ritual is very important to me. I don't like all the trappings, but I've developed some simple rituals that are meaningful to me. The way I started thinking about it was that ritual is acting out a sort of symbolism. At least for me. It's a way of talking to your spiritual self, the universe, your subconscious -- whatever and however you want to put it. Some part of me, at least, needs that sort of symbolism to connect. An overt act ... Ritual can be very serious and solemn, but at the heart, I think there is an element of play involved, of imagination. And when I opened to that, sudden rituals worked for me -- felt right. It was like I had discovered the purpose of them and they made sense.

So, ultimately, I agree with the other posters -- looks up some different Pagan rituals from different traditions and see what might call out to you. Try some of them. Doing them often feels a LOT different than just reading them. And then keep what works and feels right to you and toss the rest.
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toddaa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 09:10 PM
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4. Ritual comparison between East/West (Yin/Yang) traditions.
Edited on Wed Jan-12-05 09:11 PM by toddaa
Eastern mysticism is very different from Western occultism. There is much commonality between the two systems of thought, especially with regard to our relationship with nature, but they differ greatly with respect to the self. At least, that's been my experience. In the West, occult practice has focused on purifying and strengthening the self. This is certainly very important and can be thought of as aligning with Yang, but Eastern mysticism focuses on the Yin and the annihilation of the self. Why would you want to do this? Well, if you accept the fact that all is one (the core of my pantheistic philosophy), then you eventually come to the point where you must acknowledge that the self is illusion. Both disciplines are correct and essential, but they must be in balance.

Ritualism, performed with respect to Yin, removes the abstract mind from action. Acting without forethought, or wu wei, is the fundamental virtue of Taoism. Chaung Tzu calls it carefree wandering. Only by letting go of the ego and reverting back to the natural cycle of creation can you ever accomplish greatness.

Think of it this way. (Forgive me, but I relate just about everything to jazz, because I am beyond obsessed with it.) Charlie Parker was one of the greatest jazz musicians ever. His mastery of harmonic theory within the context of bebop was pure genius. The speed that he improvised over some of the most complicated chord progressions you can imagine were dazingly and left sideman and audiences bewildered. And yet, when you slow down his solos and notate them out, as musical scholars do, you find that the internal logic is flawless. Flawless! How did he accomplish this? Bird describes his magick ritual, "I didn't know a thing about harmony. I thought all music was played in 1 key. After I learned the scales, I taught myself to play blues in all the 12 keys. Then I learned 'I Got Rhythm ' & 'Cherokee' in all 12 keys. Then I was ready." What was the result? Again, Bird teaches us, "Don't play the saxophone. Let it play you."

Anyway, thanks for the helpful nudges to just go out and do it. I've done some poking around and Chaos Magick appears to be of some use to me, especially considering my aesthetic interests.
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Athame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-06-05 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I know very little about Taoism or jazz,
but I think you have raised a very important question, one that fascinates me in my own practice. Like you, I do not resonate with the supernatural nor with personal deities, though I think that both are important concepts that should be explored honestly. The study of goddess images and stories, particularly, I find, provides models that expand the possibilities in life for everyone, as well as countering the patriarchal myth that there is only one god and he is male and it has always been so. The supernatural is by definition unprovable, but the open minded exploration of such things as telekinesis, past lives or multidimensional existence requires that we avoid premature conclusions. Still, such study can often feel forced and artificial, a sure sign to me that I am too much in my head. And so ritual becomes important. I see ritual as a tool for awareness that forces me to use all the senses and paths of learning.

Ritual without dogma, to me, releases my imagination and at the same time reminds me of the interconnectedness of all, invites me to know that I participate. By consciously remaining open and aware of these connections, creating space for something to grow or come into being, the ritual is to watch and listen, but also to dance with the whole. Creating an altar, for example, or a garden, puts me in harmony with all around me. I do not follow some orthodox authority for these, but instead let them "play with me." In an important sense, I do not create at all, I simply emerge with the space. And as it changes--I notice a shell or feather may find its way to my altar, the light playing through the window at different times of day, or the orange blossoms suddently swelling on the tree--I am absorbed into the whole and know it to be so.

When our moon circle celebrates the phases of the moon or the solar markings, we consciously correlate them to our own bodily cycles and to the local environment. We name the moons for what is in this cycle where we are--bareroot moon, golden grasses moon, monarch return moon. Or we honor the mystery of turning toward darkness at the zenith of the summer solstice and begin our preparations for the effect of that on our own lives. One does not have to believe in Lugh the Sun King to be affected by the sunlight.

We connect also to the ancestors by telling stories of Green Man at Beltane or the Descent of Inanna at Mabon. We use their names for the seasons, but we add our own experience and pass that on, too, in our teaching the children to watch for the migrations of the whales along the coast or when to gather the apples for the fall celebrations. By the practice of ritual and the conscious creation of traditions, we teach ourselves to remember--re-member--the word itself means to re-connect ourselves.
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Is It Fascism Yet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. I just think of the dieties as Jungian archtypes, powerful thought forms,
personifications but not as actual persons. I believe more in invocation and evocation than in worship. They key is to evoke from yourself the strength of that archtype. Cabalistic Ceremonial magick also lends itself to ritual without worship (per se).
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Brewman_Jax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
7. Shamanism
There are various styles of shamanism that you may find of interest.

I also consider myself a Taoist, tho' I haven't studied the pantheistic style. I'm more familiar with the mediative side and reading Lao Zi and Chuang Zi (the pinyin spellings) and taijiquan.
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toddaa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-19-05 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Distinction between pantheism and Taoism
(I slip between Pinyin and Wade-Giles, sorry).

Anyway, I don't buy into the Western perception that there is a difference between "philosophical" Taoism and "religious" Taoism. The Taoist religion is nothing more than an extension of Laozi and Zhuangzi. That said, I am not a Taoist. I have never been to a Taoist temple, offered prayers to Taoist deities, nor practiced internal alchemy. Apart from meditation, I don't really do much that would be considered part of the Taoist religion. Also, I'm not Chinese and I'm very much aware of the fact that practicing Taoist beliefs is as much cultural as it is religious.

That aside, I am first and foremost a pantheist. I believe that the universe and all that is in it is One. We think of ourselves as individuals, but our actions, our thoughts, and our beliefs are interconnected with this Oneness. This is not far from the Daodejing or the Yijing. This is why, even as one of those godawful party pooper atheists, I have a natural affinity for pagans of all stripes and a very strong connection to the writings of Zhuangzi. Paganism, like Taoism, deals with what we can see, feel, and hear. It's about letting go of the self and connecting with the One. When a pagan practices magick, she is letting go of herself and letting nature work through her. I can't think of anything more pantheistic than putting nature back in charge.
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