It is time for the DU Pets group to oppose Wisconsin's Cat Killing

[Zuni]

initiative.

Their law is barbaric. ANY cat without a leash on your property can be considered fair game. My cat is indoor, and she often removes her collar. If she got out collarless in wisconsin, so asshole might just shoot her.

I call for a serious boycott of Wisconsin if they pass this sadistic law.


They are turning Wisconsin into a training ground for sadists and sociopaths, many who get off on killing animals before they turn to humans. Now violence against animals will require absolutely no investigation or penalty. Jeffery Dahmer, when growing up in Ohio, often captured animals and killed them, to watch them decompose, treat the bodies with acids, and make ornaments out of their bones. Look at what he ended up doing with people.

[Lorien]

1. I agree; this is about the love of killing

it has nothing to do with anything else. Only the extreme RW use to think as death as the FIRST solution to any problem, now even many here on DU are joining them in that uncreative, simplistic way of thinking. If the welfare of songbirds were really a concern, they could support laws requiring owners to bell outdoor cats, or they could support feral trapping programs (with havaheart traps, or course). More importantly, they would support laws reducing air and water toxins (birds are more susceptible to them than were are), and songbird habitat loss, which is the single greatest threat to every endangered species. But it's NOT about the birds; it's about men with very small penises who hate ANYTHING which doesn't either fear them or worship them, and who want to kill to feel powerful and potent. It's also "fun" for the sadists; the same sickos who fight to keep canned hunts legal.

My dad was a psychologist for a state prison, and yes, most serial killers and even most child abusers started out on animals. If we're going to regain any veneer of civilization, than we need to confront the reality of the mindsets behind these desires to kill; whether it's cat hunters, "trophy" hunters, or canned hunts. It has nothing to do with feeding ones self or solving a problem, but has everything to do with sadism and twisted egos.

Humanity owes the cat; without it, rodents would have made it impossible to survive the winters (rodents would have destroyed stored grains) or various plagues. We need to show a little respect for a species which has helped ours to survive by protecting it from sadists and sickos.

[demnan]

2. Well said!

Is there a way we can collectively organize as DU'ers against this action? I think I'll start a thread in the Wisconsin group. Perhaps someone there has some links to get us started.

[Zuni]

3. Notice how these SUV driving sadists

don't seem to care one whit about the ecosystem when it comes to anything but cats. There are hundreds of threats to the ecosystem that far outweigh murdering cats---suburban development, cars, pollution, clear cut logging in National Parks (thank Mr. Bush for his healthy forest initiatve)

They just want an excuse to fill their anti-ecosystem SUV with guns to hunt poor little kitties for fun..

FUCKING BASTARDS. I AM SO ANGRY JUST TYPING THIS> FUCKING BASTARDS.:mad: :grr: :mad: :grr: :mad: :grr: :mad: :grr:

I pray for all of Wisconsin's cat owners---I pray their cats aren't shot, beaten, tortured, and mutiliated by nutcases from the state that brought us Jeff Dahmer and Ed Gein. Dahmer started by killing cats and dogs in Bath, Ohio, where he killed his first human.

[Kashka-Kat]

4. yes count me in

Ill boycott Wisconsin-- and I live here. Luckily, it's not law yet, there is a long process which would involve state legislature, dept of natural resources, & governor approval. What passed was an advisory by a citizen advisory group (mostly hunters, but this was also attended by cat lovers. I didn't go thinking it was too stupid to possibly pass, but I was wrong.)

It will do nothing to restore bird nesting habitat and everything to cause the rodent & rabbit population to explode, with no predator to keep it in check. Cats are being made the scapegoats for human degradation of the environment. Feral cats are simply filling the niche left by foxes, lynxes, hawks, and other small predators which have been wiped out or driven away by humans.

[Zuni]

5. you hit every point

this wouldn't even begin to fix the problem, which is mostly caused by man

[CornField]

6. Whoa -- guess I will soon be leaving the DU Pets Group

I continue to be amazed with the high emotions of this -- all directed at the people who are trying to FIX THE PROBLEM and not at the people who CREATED THE PROBLEM.

I started a thread over in GD that lists several species of non-native animals who are actively being killed because of their threats to the existing ecosystem to which they've been introduced. Do you also plan on saving the feral hogs? Soybean rust? Asian carp? Naw... I didn't think so.

Just one more time:

Feral cats do not like humans
Feral cats do not live in populated areas
Feral cats are not typically seen until very late afternoon (4-5 pm)
Feral cats are almost impossible to domesticate
Feral cats don't like to eat from dumpsters -- they like to hunt
Feral cats are wild animals
Feral cats are not welcome at animal shelters (they are put down -- even by "no kill" shelters)

Stray cats live in town, eat out of dumpsters, are semi-easily domesticated and are rounded up by animal control.

Farm cats live on ranches and farms, mostly hunt for their food, generally like humans, are semi-domesticated and are welcomed by their living mates.

[Princess Turandot]

7. So when Fluffy, an indoor only cat gets out of the house & becomes ..

disoriented and runs several blocks away, Fluffy should be available for target practice? Is that what you're suggesting? I know at least 6 people living in suburban areas whose indoor-only cats got out of their homes through no neglect of the owner, where it took days for the cats to be located. I somehow doubt that someone willing to shoot a member of largely domesticated species is going to check to see if the cat is feral or an escaped pet. I also suspect that some people will knowingly shoot their neighbors' cat because of other disputes, having nothing to do with cats at all.

A feral cat is not the equivalent of a wild boar. It won't hurt you; it will try to run away from you, as may a lost domesticated cat.

[CornField]

8. You really think *anyone* is going to tolerate shooting in urban areas?

City Councils, town councils and even County Boards have laws on the books that prohibit the use of firearms in populated areas. Keep throwing out those emotional arguments. You know as well as I do that "Fluffy" isn't a feral cat and his primary concern is traffic. "Fluffy" typically ends up being taken in by a stranger or picked up by animal control. Once at the shelter, "Fluffy" is kept until the owners are contacted or phone in.

Feral cats are exactly the same as feral hogs: They are doing harm to the native ecosystem in which they have been introduced. The difference is that when hunters see feral hogs while they are out, they can shoot them. Currently, it is illegal for the same action to be taken against feral cats -- even when the destruction of livestock has been a factor.

All wild animals initially run from humans unless they have been conditioned otherwise. All wild animals also attack humans, given the right circumstances. Feral cats are wild animals... not "fluffy."

[Princess Turandot]

16. Someone on a cat board that I post on had a cat disappear for 2 weeks..

the cat was accidently let out by her 6 year old child, and was not a cat previously known to be a bolter.

This is not an emotional argument: it is a fact. She did not live in a suburban area like Queens, NY. She lives in an area (I just don't recall the state) with a section of developed streets & a section of undeveloped land. Her cat was never picked up by a shelter, even though she checked every one in the area every few days, put up flyers etc. Additionally, not all areas have animal patrols which pick up loose housepets. She eventually trapped her cat in an area which a similar looking cat had been reported.

Housecats unaccustomed to being outside generally are scared and run from one area to another, disoriented and frightened. They do not run up to the first person they see and ask for Fancy Feast. If the owner is lucky, they realize the cat has gotten out before it goes too far and find it hiding under the porch, but that doesn't always happen.

[kaitykaity]

9. Don't leave.

Have the discussion, present the counter-argument.

I hope you'll admit that if this is not done precisely
right, with regulation on who can do it and when they
can do it, et cetera, the potential for "fluffy" getting
shot is real.

I heard on Schultz yesterday a wildlife biologist who is
working with the state on the scope of the problem, or
if there even is one. Those are the people I'll listen
to to make up my mind on this.

But your side helps, even if I might not agree.

[Lorien]

10. What about HUMANS causing songbird extinction

what's being done about developers and polluters? How about feral dogs? They've been known to kill children, so how about open season on all unleashed canines?

I'm raising a feral kitten right now. It seems to like me very much, thank you. My cat Jasper was a former feral. He was ten years old when I got him and lived to be 17.

And how in God's name do you tell a 'feral" from a pet just by looking at it? Jasper was scarred, had three limbs, and was usually dirty-but he was my PET, dammit!

foxes are being wiped out by coyotes, who are no longer kept in check by wolves. Foxes eat what cats eat-without them, or something to fill their niche-we have an Australian sized rodent problem on our hands. This isn't about songbirds-this is about sickos who simply hate cats and love to kill things.

[CornField]

11. No, this is about humans not taking care of their pets

This is about humans releasing kittens, dogs and cats into the wild and the animals just doing what comes naturally to them. No one - absolutely no one - is saying that this is the animals' fault. The fault firmly rests on the heads of the humans who have cared so little.

There are exceptional people in this world who can take very young feral kittens and/or newly feral cats and re-domesticate them. Since you have done so, you know that it isn't an easy proposition. At best, it takes weeks -- days before the person can even touch the animal with protective gear. Of course, this would be the best solution. Unfortunately, not many people want to take on that responsibility. (Remember these are the same people that tossed them out to live off the land in the first place.)

Here in Iowa the deer are becoming a problem in populated areas (running through glass doors on homes and so-forth) because the large cat population which formerly kept them under control has declined. The larger cats are being repopulated in more remote areas and the excess herds are being shot closer to town. No doubt the large cats served a larger purpose than just keeping the deer population in check.

I understand what you are saying about the foxes, coyotes and wolves. You did, however, leave out another aspect of the problem -- coy dogs. These are the offspring of domesticated dogs and coyotes. Mostly they are from the larger and more agressive breeds: rotts, pit bulls, and mixes. People get them as pups and then discover that, since they didn't train them, the dogs are out of control. So, they dump the dogs out in the country.

I know it goes against everything inside of you to think that killing could ever be a good thing. I know because I use to feel exactly the same. This isn't just about people wanting to murder your cats (or anyone's cats). This is about a population which is out of control and is posing dangers to an existing ecosystem. When and if you can step back from your emotional stance on the issue, I think you'll be better able to understand.

A final note: laws prohibiting the use of firearms in populated areas are just like other laws; they only work when they are obeyed. Since people are murdered by gunshots, it's obvious that not everyone follows the law. This proposal to allow the killing of feral cats; however, is not going to prompt lines of gunmen walking through communities. Those who would kill neighborhood pets under this proposal are the ones who didn't give a shit about the law to begin with.

[Lorien]

13. I understand perfectly

I don't think that you understand "feral" animals at all, though, nor do you understand coyote hybrids. I have two friends with coyote hybrids as pets; both have been wonderful animals. Why would you believe that coyotes only mate with "aggressive" breeds? One was half lab, the other was half collie. Both lived for around 14 years and both got glowing reviews from their owners.

I have another friend with a wolfdog. When they go to the dog park, it's the Jack Russels that cause trouble, NOT Nakoma the wolfdog. Animals become aggressive only when they've been mistreated by humans. Look on Catster at how many thousands of feral cats are listed as beloved pets. "Feral" DOES NOT mean aggressive; it simply means that that animal is not someone's property. Ferals are not wild animals; a wild animal is strictly a species that has never been domesticated. I've handled many ferals and never needed "protective gear" , just patience and kindness.

Please back up your "danger to the ecosystem" assertion with some facts. When I had outdoor cats, their primary prey was rats and mice. Remember; cats have been living feral alongside humans for THOUSANDS of years, in greater numbers in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East than America has ever known. They still have songbirds. The ecosystem argument is, I'm sorry to say, absolute bullshit. WE are the cause of the ecosystem collapse; and bulldozing habitat is THE NUMBER ONE CAUSE of this downfall. Cats are only a scapegoat for greedy, irresponsible corporations and developers.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

17. Cats have been domesticated for 6000 years.

A few generations of being feral does not change that.

[oregonjen]

12. What if a nut job took cats from their homes and then released them

for target practice? I would like to think there would be a better solution to this problem than shooting cats. To me, it's disgusting.

[Lorien]

14. Someone recently posted an article

about a trapping program at a university that had virtually reduced the number of ferals to zero. Havaheart traps were used to capture and adopt out younger animals, and to neuter and release older ones. Eventually, no new kittens were born. The pro kill group will no doubt say the program was too expensive or say that it's simply "impossible", but it worked. The fact is, these people simply think it would be fun to kill cats, and ANY humane solution will automatically be rejected.

Lot of fun it's going to be with cities and farms being overrun with rodents if the pro death crowd gets it's way. Reminds me of when a Texas pest control corporation convinced one city that bats would cause disease epidemics. The city hired the company to kill millions of bats, THEN had to hire the same pest control company to kill BILLIONS of mosquitoes and other insects that swiftly took on Biblical plague proportions due to the bat's absence. The pest control industry did very well for itself before the city finally acknowledged that it had been duped.

[kaitykaity]

15. Slightly OT, but similar vein.

Now I only heard this story once, but I think I'm
remembering it right. I'm hoping it's not apocryphal.

Anyway, my Dad's uncle worked for the Forest Service in
Montana and he told us all a story of how the Forest
Service wanted to stock the rivers up there with food for
the salmon, and they figured shrimp was as good a food as any.

Pretty soon there were no more shrimp (no food) and no
more salmon. The shrimp had eaten all of the salmon eggs.

More of those unforeseen consequences.

[SiouxJ]

18. Trapping sounds like a sane solution to the problem

I've had a busy week so I wasn't really following this story until now. I think you're right - this is an excuse for hunters to go on a rampage through neighborhoods. Sounds like an accident waiting to happen to me. Only when somebody's child or beloved pet is shot will they understand what a stupid idea this is. Shooting anything in neighborhoods is just plain stupid. The obvious (to sane people) solution is trapping, not shooting. This whole thing is absurd. Welcome to Shrub's America, where violent brutality is always promoted before a humane solution to the problem.

I think a Wisconsin boycott sounds like a good idea.

[Lizzie Borden]

19. The govenor (democrat) said he wouln't support ...

anything like this. TheDNR says it's not enforcible. And most hunters say it's cruel and look upom it like they do the dove killing bill (though that one did pass I think). The hunters aren't going to eat cat so they say it's cruel to kill them. Most hunters have a code they adhere to that says if you aren't going to eat it, don't shoot it. Besides I can't imagine how many yahoos this would put wandering around out there stalking cats. This would create countless problems. Minnesota does have a cat shooting law. I don't know how it is working out there but I can see no advantage to it. In this reguard, Minnesota stands out as being in the dark ages. It's created some really bad PR for their state.