The Politics of Body Hair

I would like to have a reasonable discussion of a topic that often becomes rather heated on DU: women shaving/waxing some or all of their pubic hair. And yes, this is a serious thread. I was talking with some friends about this recently, and wanted to see what women on this forum TRULY think about it.

I would like the discussion to focus on women. Not on teenagers, but on adult women who choose to wax or shave.

I know many people blame this on the prevalence in porn of shaved vulvas. I personally reject this as the reason, although I will agree that particular men and women DO shave because of porn. But, I believe it’s a safe bet to say that’s a small minority. I will also say that I don’t agree with one partner forcing another to do this for such a reason. People in a committed, respectful relationship should never force anything onto their partners.

I also do not think pubic hair is “dirty,” etc. I do, however, think it IS vestigial, like your appendix, etc.

I also have heard people say it’s more “natural” to not shave. Okay, I have zero problems with this being someone’s personal choice, although I reject that reasoning for myself. I personally prefer the look and feel of certain areas being clean shaven, and it ahs nothing to do with porn, phallocentric attitudes in society and advertising, or the patriarchy. It is my personal choice. I do, however, believe that NOTHING we do to ourselves is technically natural – from wearing clothes, to cutting our hair, etc.

Per Wikipedia:

“Waxing of the genital areas has been prevalent in many societies around the world for centuries, in Ancient Greece, Rome and Egypt but especially in arid or desert, predominantly Muslim and Arab countries. Arab, Turkish, and Persian women as well as women from the Albanian culture and Mediterranean regions have for centuries been waxing in the genital areas. The waxes used were often sugar-based and made with lemon; however present variations include oils and scents to lessen the discomfort. The reasons for genital waxing in these regions have not necessarily been for cosmetic reasons throughout history, as it is in the case of North and South America as well as Europe, but instead these cultures mentioned above have generally practiced waxing for centuries more for reasons of personal hygiene and/or religion. As a result, in many of these cultures, body hair of any sort on women is considered socially unacceptable. However, waxing the genital area completely is relatively new to western cultures, developing mostly in the 20th century. In the United States, for example, the habit of waxing or even shaving the pubic area did not become common place until the late 1990s. However, as of 2006, this habit has become popular with the recent generation of American women.

The wax originated in Brazil for women wanting to wear the then-new thong bikinis, which was not widely popular inside the United States at the time. Waxing gained in popularity through the 1990s, with several celebrities, such as Paula Yates and Gwyneth Paltrow, extolling its virtues. In 1999 it shot to international prominence with the airing of a Sex and The City episode, where one of the characters is the unsuspecting victim of a Brazilian wax and finds the experience surprisingly pleasant.”

So, I kinda reject the reasoning that porn “forces” most women to shave. I also believe that the majority of men (and women) are NOT tuned on by prepubescent girls. They want to be in bed with women, not kids. I think most men are pigs, but not skeeves or pedophiles. And, I know that I – along with many friends – were shaving or trimming well before the advent of ubiquitous internet porn flashing shaven vulvas.

*****************************************************************

Having started the thread, I think it’s only fair to fully give my position on genital shaving: I’m a lesbian, and for years have been either partially or fully shaven. My reasons for doing this are:

* I find it more hygienic
* It makes sex more enjoyable; absence of hair allows MUCH more sensation, it makes oral sex easier and better, and it’s just plain sexier, imo. A woman’s body is very, very sexy, and is nothing to hide. I personally like being able to see my partner’s body changing.
* Frankly, I like the way it feels and looks.
* I run a lot, and being shaven stops painful ingrown hairs, etc., that nothing else stops, even BodyGlide or other sports anti-friction sticks.

I want to finish by saying this: I am not a pedophile, and neither is my GF. Neither of us have any desire to watch child porn. I know I’m not in bed with a 12-year-old, and so does she.

Thanks for reading the entire post. I’m looking forward to seeing everyone’s posts and reading other opinions!


on edit: I also think that the SERIOUS views of male DUers would be interesting.

I shave.

Doing so does not make me look like a pre-pubescent, or appeal to those who find pre-pubescents sexually attractive, as I have hips, an ass and (fortunately very feint) stretch marks. It does however keep me from feeling sweaty or sticky, make for better oral and keep me from looking like an earlier hominid. I never have to worry about errant pubes escaping my bathing suit in the summer.

Most importantly, I prefer how I look shaved, and I decided that on my own several years before I ever saw a naked woman depicted in porn, with or without pubic hair.

Exactly how I feel, Leftymom.

It's one thing to personally prefer how you feel shaved or unshaved; it's quite another to equate how women naturally look to being subhuman. THAT is not a feminist outlook.

I'm casper white and have thick, almost black body hair. I'm not talking about how women generally look naked, as I don't generally look at women naked and wouldn't much know, pube-wise.

I, on the other hand, feel that I look unattractive with pubic hair/leg hair/armpit hair/unmanaged eyebrows and I can certainly mock my own body hair if I feel like it.

unless they shave, of course.

You aren't merely mocking yourself with a statement like that. You're promoting/spreading a view that certain women need to shave in order to look human.

I don't know why you would post that in a women's rights forum.

Which is addressing the OP's questions.

I'm not taking out "pubes are nasty" ads in Seventeen, I'm not suggesting any other DUer or anybody else alter their grooming routine, I'm just saying how I feel about my own body. Last I checked, I am entitled to my own opinion of my looks, absent cultural baggage, political litmus tests and other people nosing in.

If I saw someone in a forum designed to promote racial equality stating that they straighten their hair so they don't look "like an earlier hominid" I would think they were setting racial equality back, not working to advance anyone's rights. I would question why they were in such a forum. And I would think they had some issues of racism to deal with, even if they were talking about themselves.

I'm suspicious of anyone who alters their body in some way for aesthetic reasons without being able to recognize and acknowledge that society has shaped their views on aesthetics. When it comes to beauty standards, I don't believe any of us are absent of cultural baggage. You can acknowledge the baggage and rebel against it, or consciously decide to conform, or pretend it doesn't exist, but no matter which way you go, that baggage is there. Beauty standards in large part - to include body hair - are about power and race and class.

Stan Goff's got a good discussion of that about halfway down his essay here (excuse my fixing his typos, which he seems to stubbornly embrace ):



http://www.insurgentamerican.net/analysis/an-elaborate-... /

Note: I am specifically speaking of visual aesthetics here, not shaving because of ingrown hairs, etc.

I'm not setting back womankind in saying that I dislike them and think that ON ME, because I have dark, coarse and unfortunately rather plentiful hair, they rather look like something out of the primatology section of my anthro text. That's just my personal opinion and hardly something I'd be discussing with most people or flashing at strangers, as I said it effects a grand total of two people. Well three if you count making life a little easier for my gyno once a year.

If it'd said the same thing about taming my eyebrows, nobody'd worry that I was setting womankind back in doing so. And people actually SEE that.

First, your subject line.

Whether or not you shave affects two people. Your opinion, if kept to yourself, affects two people - yourself, and the other person affected by your shaving decisions that result from your opinion.

Once you state publicly (on the internet or otherwise) that, in your view, coarse dark hair on women's bodies makes them look like something from the "primatology section of my anthro text", you've now spread that opinion to others, and it does affect more than yourself. Even if you add the disclaimer that ON YOU coarse dark hair makes you look subhuman, what you're really getting at, deep down here, is that you believe the ethnic trait of having pale skin and coarse dark hair is less advanced than the ethnic trait of having fine hair that matches your skin tone. So now it is a race issue, and not just a gender issue.

Second, as far as the eyebrows go, you are wrong there - if you said you were "taming" your eyebrows because your ethnic characteristics are unattractive, I would indeed have the same reaction.

I'm surprised at your perception that you are only talking about yourself when you say your coarse dark hair (a result of your ethnicity!) makes you look like a primate. When you think about that critically (as in critical thought, not critical as negative), you honestly can't see any connection with cultural baggage at all?

Likewise, I'm surprised that you can't see that sending out a message that _________ is unattractive and makes "me" look subhuman would affect other people's opinions, in particular people who share the ethnic characteristic you've just described as being unattractive (in yourself).

I'm no more denigrating my heritage than I'd be engaging in racial superiority arguments if I mentioned that Italian men tend to have pretty eyes. Certainly I'm not saying that women of Italian extraction are unattractive or should feel bad about their bodies, nor do I think my offhand comment in a dusty corner of the internet has any such power over anybody, I'm only saying it's a trait I happen not to care for personally as it manifests on my body.

I mentioned my ethnicity only to illustrate that there's a combination of very fair skin and very dark thick hair involved, which makes body hair much more obvious on me than it would be on somebody with a less dramatic difference between hair and skin tone. My best friend growing up never shaved her legs until she joined the high school swim team. She's of Scandinavian descent, and with a small amount of nearly invisible blond body hair she just never saw the point. If I had her skin tone and baby fine hair, I probably wouldn't bother either. That's what made me think to mention my ethnicity in relation to my pubes. (Good lord, I can't believe someday somebody's going to be looking for something important I said once and instead they're going to find me rambling on about pubic grooming.)

Anyhow, anybody who changed their feelings about their body, their ethnicity or their gender based on the ramblings of some random person on the internets has bigger problems than their attitude toward their pubic hair.

her mind wasn't even there.

Why did you take what she said as a personal attack when she was talking about herself? How did it diminish you or debased your sense of self in such a profound way? How is it a personal affront to you when she wasn't talking ONLY about herself and her own experience?

talk about a leap to the non sequitur.

and is posted in a women's rights forum. If a person wants to talk about what they personally prefer, without connecting it to the political implications of the issue, then perhaps the lounge would be a better spot for that discussion. Likewise, if a person feels critical thought applied to their posts is somehow out of bounds or a "personal attack" - then that might be a sign they aren't actually here to promote women's rights or discuss how the issue relates to women's rights. "I just like how shaved women look" - or "I like how I look shaved" is more of a lounge post, imho.

Here, I assume people want to discuss the broad (no pun intended) implications of those preferences - why they come about, how prevailing trends influence women to conform and whether women feel pressured to alter their bodies when faced with discussion after discussion of how body hair is "gross."

Discussing how we develop our aesthetic preferences - particularly when we equate natural ethnic characteristics of women as being more evolved, or less evolved, is part of what this forum is about.

then there's no harm, no foul.

I know she was being humorous when she wrote that.

It's completely up to the woman.
My ex preferred not to shave or wax, for the most part. She would occassionally, but I never made her do it. I never gave it a thought.
If my next partner (whoever she may be) chooses to defoliate, that's fine, too.

I hope more men respond.

Thanks!

Guy here. If a woman wants to shave, great, if not, that's ok too.

I also find it very sexy.

and I've been a natural woman. I never had that much of it, though, so it wasn't much as far as feminist or political statements go.

Whatever any adult human being does with his or her own body is simply none of my business and I expect them to return the courtesy.

I, unfortunately, have been told before that I'm not a "real" feminist or lesbian because I do it.

I agree with you!

I trim the front and shave the surrounding 'hillsides' because *I* prefer the way it looks and feels. I have tried shaving the whole area, but I can't stand the growing in process--itches too much.

And what's real, you know? I'm told I'm not really black because I talk well and dont' sound black, so there ya go.

Being hirsuit is a wonderful thing. Being clean shaven is a wonderful thing. Being in the middle of the two is a wonderful thing. There is so much wonder out there to be stuck on only one method.

It's just plain SEXY. I prefer not having hair getting in the way and to be able to actually SEE what's going on.

And as much as I like pornography, at least for myself, I find the notion of doing it to imitate a porn actress absolutely laughable.

And..I absolutely agree with you, about hair getting in the way!
I'm so relieved that someone else agrees with me, about "hair getting in the way"!
May I please, cheers to you!

My wife has shaved a couple of times and I loved the look and the way it felt when we had sex. She has done nothing more than trim and shave for swimsuit.
The reason I like it has nothing to do with the prepubescent look, I prefer oral with out the hair.
I have even considered shaving my own pubic hair.

My wife knows my preference but relates to the porn and prefers not too. To me it is a little bit of fantasy, but it is about how it feels. But I must respect her preference, it is her body.

Thanks for answering!

And this feminist woman definitely loves to get a brazillian now and then

But yes, for all practical/hygenic/sexual sensastion reasons, I prefer it



Great thread

I would have put it in GD or the Lounge, but I was afraid some trollies would try to ruin it.

I'm old enough to have seen certain fashions come and go, and other fashions come along & stay for a long time. As far as reasons for the shaved look, I strongly suspect it's just one of those things that came along. Lots of people seem to just like it; I suspect this look will be around for a long time.

I'm a married hetero male, 46 years old, and I just find it aesthetically pleasing. Unfortunately my wife is quite ... furry, I guess, and she's never reacted well to grooming suggestions. I'm naturally furry from head to toe - except my scalp, unfortunately - but letting hair grow naturally just looks horrible. I shave & trim a lot, because I like smooth shoulders & back & upper arms, and it really makes me look younger not having a thick wool blanket over the rest. But that's just me.

They say it makes you look younger and thinner.

When I was younger, I'd sometimes notice that some older men got a little furry, and thought it looked horrible. As I aged, and saw the same thing happening to my body, I decided to spend a little more time with razors & clippers... and immediately looked ten years younger.

It's bad enough that my knees are starting to ache, and ... all those other reminders that I'm not 18 anymore. So every little bit helps...

because my hubby is getting furry and I adore it.

I don't find hairy balls very attractive, myself!

feminist collegaues that shaving anything was a act of submission to the patricarchy and women owning razors was a political issue. Today with presonal choice being taken a little more seriously and more feminism being more broadly interpreted, that seems to have waned.

I have also experienced all sides of the issue, and found my overall prefernce to be a "maintained" look regardless of what it is, though I do prefer at least some to be there.

Shave...Therefore, I have always preferred it. Actually I LOVE it!

Honestly, I am almost sure that I would not live with someone who did not shave. My girlfriends always did, my wife does.

how much do you think your upbringing/culture affected your views on this?

I would have to agree with everything you said. It has nothing to do with porn, and everything to do with presentation and curtesy for oral sex.

Not that it is a show stopper for me. I wouldn't kick someone out of my bed just because they didn't shave.

(disclaimer: although I have been shaving for years now, I let myself go this winter. Guess I'll have to deal with the black forest this spring.)

And one more note: I wouldn't reccomend waxing for anyone, and for shaving there is a product called coochie cream which is great and reduces rash and bumps. I think it has aloe and other moisturizers in it, but basically it is hair creme rinsh. Using cream rinse to shave really softens the hair and generally makes it an easier experiance than regular shave cream.

And believe me, as a man shaving is a much more delicate and complex procedure than for women.

For real.

And, I may have to disagree with you about who's more delicate to shave....

without the thread getting locked.

"Coochie Cream"!!

Ok, totally sophomoric of me, but...



I'm easily amused. That's cute.

now if I could just find one to play with!

This isn't a sex thread.

Thanks!

I guess I'm in the minority, because my gf and I never, ever shave our pubic hair (although we shave our legs, underarms etc.). We are lesbians.


No disrespect, but when I read some of things straight people say to ... and about ... each other's body hair, it makes me very glad I'm not swimming in that pool.


(for examples check out the comments to this letter in salon about a woman not shaving her legs.


<<<graphic content below>>


Now, as for why my gf and I don't shave below:


We both like the feel of soft, downy hair and the wetness therein during sex. We both love the intoxicating pheromones that are caught and released in a woman's pubic hair.


We both had experiences where we shaved it all off in the past ... and while the 1 day smoothness was fun ... the itchy stubble that grew back was a nightmare.

And to subject our sweet little vagina's to torture-style Brazilian waxes? You've got to be kidding! What fresh hell is that?!


In my "experimenting" days I slept with men and never, ever wanted them to shave below and they never wanted me to shave there, either (and one was a watcher of straight porn...we watched together.)

My favorite boyfriend was French, and he didn't even like it when I shaved under my arms LOL.


People who say it's easier for oral sex may be right ... but I guess I don't need "easier" oral sex in my life. I dig my girlfriend as she is ... and she's super sexy with her sweet little bush.


I've always like older women. And if my gf she shaved, I honestly think she'd seem like a 12-year-old girl to me, and I'm much more interested in a woman who looks mature and who's body is mature.


Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

I honestly didn't see anything wrong with that salon article. The guy was genuinely concerned about how his wife's body hair was affecting their relationship. Cary replied with some good suggestions about how to make shaving more fun. What's wrong with that? People can't really help what they're attracted to.

After the first time shaving, the itchy stubble isn't really a problem, if you do it right.

As for the 12-year-old girl part, that's quite honestly nuts. I like older women, too. My GF is 18 years older than me. She's smooth-shaven. She does not look like a 12-year-old girl and neither do I. I don't know why someone would think simple pubic hair removal makes someone look 12-years-old. Every other aspect of their bodies is that of an adult woman; why would a lack of hair on one specific part turn them into a child? Afterall, young girls don't really have much leg hair or underarm hair, so wouldn't removal of that cause a woman to look like a child? Absurd, right? It's just as absurd to say that shaved pubic hair makes a woman look like a kid.

I'm sorry if I was unclear about the Salon column.

I should've said that when I read the comments in _response_ to that Salon column (and not the actual column) and the seemingly judgmental and ugly things men and women appeared to say to each other, it made me glad I wasn't into opposite-sex dating anymore.


As for equating hairlessness with the appearance of being a minor: again, I should've been more clear.

I should've said that FOR ME and FOR ME ONLY, it appears that a woman without pubic hair resembles a more child-like, pre-pubescent body, which I don't prefer. I like a more mature body ... with all that entails ... over a young body, freshly ready for reproduction. Just my preference. Your milage may vary.

I REALLY want to understand what you mean, so can you explain what "... your mileage may vary."

Thanks!

I mean that it may be different for you than it is for me when I say "Your mileage may vary".

(or, that what is my experience may be totally different for you)

It applies to males as well as females.

http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?typ...

According to the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh) every adult Muslim, as a part of keeping his/her body clean, should remove the hair on his pubic area and that, which grows under his armpits. This hair may be removed through any method that one feels comfortable with. A person should not let this hair grow for more than (around) forty days, as has been reported in a number of narratives ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh).

The ultimate objective of all Islamic teachings is to cleanse the human body, soul and mind. According to the Qur'an , only those people shall qualify for the everlasting bliss in the hereafter, who try to cleanse themselves during the life of this world. Your question pertains to that part of Islamic teachings that relates with the cleansing of the human body, and therefore requires a cautious attitude on our part.

...and in the winter I only bother if I'm expecting an overnight guest, which isn't so often these days. I don't feel like I'm subjugating myself to any kind of patriarchal heirarchy, either - I just personally don't like to look "hairy." Blech. I don't like excessive body hair on men either, btw. I keep saying that if I come into a windfall this year, I'd have my leg hair lasered and be done with it.

As to shaving more intimate sites, I've never done it, other than some trimming during bikini season. A friend of mine does, and I think it's very cool, surely feels nice, but my lazy thought is, what a pain to maintain it - and if you don't, how uncomfortable/itchy it must be when it grows back!

Interesting topic, though, and a personal choice for everyone. Anyone who says "You're not a real feminist if you shave," is trying to impose their values on you. Isn't feminism about not being oppressed by other people's values?

IMO? Yup!

The itchiness usually goes away after the second or third time you shave... I swear!

I thought it was an interesting topic, too.

Unfortunately, it seems that the loudest, shrillest 'feminists' are doing the most damage because of their inability to allow people to make their own choices.

Kind of like the 'feminist' who will tell you which words, thoughts, etc YOU need to find offensive, while never having supported themselves either outside of their parents' home or their spouse's.

I don't think people like that have a lot of credibility. In fact, I think most see that type of individual as a laughing stock.

and never tried to make people change their opinions, or at least tried to get them to view their thoughts and behaviors differently, how much would have changed?

Oh, ok, you don't think women should vote? Well alright, I won't try to argue about why we should because everyone is entitled to their own opinion!

Wump, there it is. You da woman!

I don't know how this isn't perfectly obvious to anyone "arguing" over women's rights. And "that was different" doesn't cut it either.

She's a strong advocate for women's and GLBT rights. Midlo is a fighter. What she was referring to is the stance that some feminists take basically saying "if you shave you're not a real feminist," "if you like it when a man does this, then you're not a real feminist," "if you like penetration, you're not a real lesbian," etc. That's the sort of "feminist" babble she's referring to. When in reality, feminism should just be about equality of the sexes.

up a list of trivial acts that make one a "feminist" or "not a feminist," but either way I *do* think that it's rather "unfeminist" to refuse to analyze or think about the reasons one does, says, or thinks certain things. If we all just accepted everything as "natural" or "human nature" or whatever bullshit we come up with to justify our socialization, not much would have changed.

It's just "natural" that women stay home with the kids and men go out and work, after all...

or wear make up

Body hair in certain areas (armpits, pubic hair) does have an evolutionary function - it concentrates scent and pheromones. It may look unappealing to some of us, but it exists for a reason - and there's a reason why it first appears at the time of sexual maturity. Just thought I'd throw that in.

It traps our pheromones and aids in reducing friction where our limbs rub together (if you are of slight build, or have a trim figure, this is less relevant. I am neither).

Personally: for hygienic reasons, I trim my genital hair a little, but I would never trim it close or shave completely. To me, it makes one look prepubescent; perhaps because I am a parent? Also, I never swim, so swimsuit/bikini lines are a non-issue (and I have a feeling that if for some reason I did start to swim, I still wouldn't trim. What I look like squarely falls into the "Why do I give a shit what you think?" category.)

And to address one final point: I would say that everything we do is natural: we exist as a part of Nature, nu? Shaved or not shaved: both are natural.

And no, that's not great! If you want someone to stick their face your place, then, they don't need to have the extra hair-scent-trap in their nose. Trim it! Shave it! Pluck it! Wax it!

and i shave/wax/trim as i feel like.

as does she.

i like the scent of a woman.

about the scent of women here.

So that's not really a valid argument for not shaving. Hair does trap the scent, and if you exercise, it can lead to ingrown hairs.

because it traps the scent is fucking ludicrous.

One man I went out with, was very interested in body odor, and loved "sniffing", especially my armpits. He forbade me to wear deodorant.
However, being a sort-of-normal person who checks their own scent (go ahead and question that statement), I notice that when I shave/trim my pubes, I stink a lot less!

Go ahead and form your own conclusions.

and occasionaLLy go for the bare shave, but i'm just Lazy.

well, you know.

This is an interesting topic, but you are going to get flamed in a big way by the frequenters of this forum who think that they are the arbiters of all things feminist.

Which will be too bad, because this is tres interesting.

because you shave!


There. How'd I do?

I don't consider myself an "arbiter of all things feminist" but I do frequent this forum. It's one of my primary forums of interest on DU because I am very interested in women's rights. Perhaps you didn't mean the frequenters of this forum think they are arbiters of all things feminist but if you dissect your sentence structure, it's hard for me to feel otherwise.

I also note that other than commenting that this is an interesting topic, you offer no comment on the topic at hand. Your post seems only interested in making fun of people you don't agree with. I'm sorry to see that.

I shave. I find it more comfortable and like the feel of it. I had never thought of it until my husband asked me if I would be willing to try it. Personally, I have a great sex life with my husband BECAUSE we continue to do things that we know turns the other on - without judgment.

then it didn't apply to you.

This forum is hard to read at times because of the my way or the highway attitude of a lot of posters. Feminism is about choices and making choices based on one's own experience and to be lectured by about what makes a feminist or not is a little hard to take.

I'd love to know the real life experience of some of these posters. Because I'll bet the strident tone offered up constantly hasn't served them well in either the corporate world, the academic world or any other area in which people obtain a paycheck.

without being accused of "lecturing" or being "strident" or any other anti-woman, Dittohead cliches.

Speaking one's mind confidently without being accused of being "the arbiter of all things feminist" and attacked by those who lack the confidence to realize, if they don't agree or it doesn't apply to them, as you said, "then it didn't apply to" them.

I have a great sex life with my husband BECAUSE we continue to do things that we know turns the other on - without judgment.

You know, I'm not supposed to be talking to you. I'm still pretty mad at you. Thanks for PM - I owe you a response.

To be clear, this is my opinion regarding how one treats the person they are in a committed relationship with. My opinion on one night stands and flings might not garner me as much favor, I suspect. Suffice it to say, my husband earned this kind of trust from me and I believe that is how it should be.

(But yeah, I'm not the man-hating sexless bitch some people here think I am...)

I LOVE your response, especially the part of earning trust in a committed relationship.

(And, even though I'm an evil sexual deviant lesbian, I've never thought you were a man-hating bitch.)

Also untrue. Where are the flames, where are the "arbiters of all things feminist"?

Unlike another forum that shall remain nameless, whose "frequenters" take it upon themselves to be the "arbiters of all things hijackable" and crash/lock threads, this forum doesn't invite or foster that sort of attitude.

As it turns out, a lot of the accusations that are flung at feminists on DU come straight from the pigmouth and insane mind of Rush Limbaugh.

Hope you learn something from the fact that your assumptions are completely out of line.

ever since I have been old enough to grow hair "down there" I have been "landscaping" it.

I have no idea what the current trends are in pubic style in porn, but I can imagine. For me, I really feel more hygienic, more comfortable with less hair, that's why I also defoliate my underarms and legs. Leg, underarm, and pubic hair is coarse and scratchy, and I don't like it next to my skin. Also, in the case of underarms and the groin, hair traps bacteria, and can lead to odor. Personally, I like to be as odor free as possible. I'm not one to follow trends or cultural expectations, but for me, it's a personal preference, whether I have a man in my life or not. I don't feel that grooming one's pubic hair is at all equitable to being oppressed, unless someone is badgering you to do it.

I prefer the small, close cropped "landing strip" above the region, the rest, smooth.

And,"coochie cream" is cute, huh? I'm ordering some -- it got great reviews.

Cut a cat's whiskers and then ask how he feels about it. Hair has a direct link to nerve endings.

That said, I keep myself trimmed down there for the same reason I shave my face (I'm a male BTW). It just looks less scraggly.

A cat's whiskers are "feelers." When you're smooth, you can feel all kinds of stuff you can't while unshaven.

because I've experienced exactly the opposite the times I've gone completely "bald". It didn't deaden the sensation (far from it), just changed it. Made me a bit less ticklish that usual.

You have sense modalities that depend on feeling the deformation of the hair on your skin. You can't feel them when you shave, you can however trigger different receptors that are generally shielded by hair. Of course you may prefer one or the other. I like to mix it up

NO waxing for me anywhere else, though. OUCH!

what my partner does is upto her, i dont think one way or the other is a big deal to me.

i do find it oppressive when straight men expect women to be fully shaved/waxed while not doing it themselves.

I've tried shaving there a couple times. I feels bad when it grows back. I think it makes me look too young. I also don't think that my shape in that area looks as good as it seems to on most porn stars. Everytime I have done it, I have hurt after sex from the extra skin friction. I personally don't like it.
As for hygeine, I shower every day and wash that area, often using excess shampoo suds on that hair. If I don't feel "fresh" when I am planning on sex, I shower.
I guess I do get a bit offended though when people say that not shaving is disgusting or ugly.

most women i date may trim their hair but dont take it all off and i dont think its unhygienic. i think the poor butch girls would be most upset to wax all their hair off.

Is unhygenic. I have heard some guys say that they would never go down on a woman with hair for that reason. I don't understand that reasoning. If someone showers regularly, I don't think that is an issue.

so i don't understand why being hairless is more hygienic.

more hygenic to shave. It just perpetuates this ignorance.

I can't speak for others, but when I speak of hair removal and hygiene, I'm speaking for myself.

Those with very coarse curly hair sometimes have issues with the hairs curling back in on themselves, creating bumps, etc. from everyday movement friction, exercise, etc. Not all do, but for some it's a problem. Ingrown hairs are painful and can get infected creating other issues.

I've also heard of some women getting other infections--which I won't get into because of the proliferation of medical professionals on this board that seem intent on debunking anything that I write that they haven't "personally seen" in their many years of medical work .

Does this mean that one that doesn't shave, wax, etc. is somehow "less hygenic"? No way. I'm saying that for those (like me) that have had problems like ingrown hairs, it is an issue. For women that don't have such problems and they like a full bush, it's not a hygiene issue at all.

...it's all about preference and the individual as far as I'm concerned.

Sorry for the long response.

so i think this too is body dependent.

as is i firmly believe no one should dictate what we do to our bodies so long as it doesnt harm someone else.

No one should dictate at all, as everyone is SO different. I would never say one that doesn't remove their hair is LESS--in appearance, hygiene, etc.

It's frustating to read that some feel "feminism" is determined by not participating in any sort of body hair removal, grooming, etc. Doing so to some seems to mean that we've sold ourselves out "to the man" and the "male patriarchy." Why can't it just mean I (and other women) like the way it looks and feels--for OURSELVES? (not questioning you of course, just a rhetorical in general question).

I'm really sorry to hear that you (and your gf) started to have problems AFTER you started waxing. That sucks.

It's so interesting to me how individual this is. How some have problems IF they wax. How others have issues if they don't. For me, I get them when I don't. I still get a few when I do (wax)--but primarily when the hair is growing back, and I can generally catch them before they get to that point. This is one of the reasons I want to have it permanently removed. No more hair--no more ingrowns.

i still do it from time to time. depending on mood.

some of my friends (straight, gay and bi) have said the thought of doing this in theory just sounded like medieval torture, but once they did they never wanted to go back.

The first time I heard of it, prior to doing it all I could think was..."omfg--no way! HOT wax...on my pubes?!?"

It's funny to me now, considering how much I like it.
But again, one has to dig being "bare" in that way. Some just don't like it--which is understandable.

I have dated butch girls have been completely shaved by their own choice. Not to mention men, gay or straight, shave. So I have no idea what the hell gender issues have to do with this.

one way or the other i dont care. so long as no one tells me what to do with my pubic hair i really dont care what one does with theirs.

i still dont think its a hygiene issue. to me its more of a "should i paint my nails or not" issue. paint them if you want, dont if you dont.

"Nobody puts Baby in the corner."

?

You didn't get it.

the hindi version, "holiday", for some reason leaves it out.

"Nobody puts Baby in the corner"

I know --

Glad to see you get it.

...For me, it's got nothing to do with "porn", looking like a prepubescent, or any cultural stipulations or anything - it's just a personal preference - and I do it for the same reasons you and LeftyMom do! I walk and do a lot of yoga and well, it's just more comfortable that way. And for the other reasons you and LM cited. More hygenic, looks better, improves sensation....better oral, etc.

It's good to see another feminist who understands my POV that it has nothing to do with porn, and everything to do with personal preference re: sports, sex, etc.

Thanks again!