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Can anyone, anyone, explain the velocity of gravity?

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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 04:48 PM
Original message
Can anyone, anyone, explain the velocity of gravity?
Any physics gurus out there? This has been puzzling me for the longest, and whenever I come across any article about it, the answer shockingly is that physics has never really dealt with the question.

By velocity of gravity, I don't mean acceleration of an object being acted upon by gravity, but the speed of the propogation of gravity.

In other words, most physics models of bodies in space assume that, for example, the gravity of the sun acts instantaneously on the earth.

At the same time, relativity is supposed to limit all forces to the speed of light. In most scholarly articles, I understand the question, but the answers make my eyes glaze over. Here is an excerpt of a typical article that poses the question in an interesting way.

http://www.metaresearch.org/cosmology/speed_of_gravity.asp

Introduction

The most amazing thing I was taught as a graduate student of celestial mechanics at Yale in the 1960s was that all gravitational interactions between bodies in all dynamical systems had to be taken as instantaneous. This seemed unacceptable on two counts. In the first place, it seemed to be a form of "action at a distance". Perhaps no one has so elegantly expressed the objection to such a concept better than Sir Isaac Newton: "That one body may act upon another at a distance through a vacuum, without the mediation of any thing else, by and through which their action and force may be conveyed from one to the other, is to me so great an absurdity, that I believe no man who has in philosophical matters a competent faculty of thinking, can ever fall into it." (See Hoffman, 1983.) But mediation requires propagation, and finite bodies should be incapable of propagation at infinite speeds since that would require infinite energy. So instantaneous gravity seemed to have an element of magic to it.

The second objection was that we had all been taught that Einstein's special relativity (SR), an experimentally well established theory, proved that nothing could propagate in forward time at a speed greater than that of light in a vacuum. Indeed, as astronomers we were taught to calculate orbits using instantaneous forces; then extract the position of some body along its orbit at a time of interest, and calculate where that position would appear as seen from Earth by allowing for the finite propagation speed of light from there to here. It seemed incongruous to allow for the finite speed of light from the body to the Earth, but to take the effect of Earth's gravity on that same body as propagating from here to there instantaneously. Yet that was the required procedure to get the correct answers.

These objections were certainly not new when I raised them. They have been raised and answered thousands of times in dozens of different ways over the years since general relativity (GR) was set forth in 1916. Even today in discussions of gravity in USENET newsgroups on the Internet, the most frequently asked question and debated topic is "What is the speed of gravity?" It is only heard less often in the classroom because many teachers and most textbooks head off the question by hastily assuring students that gravitational waves propagate at the speed of light, leaving the firm impression, whether intended or not, that the question of gravity's propagation speed has already been answered.

Yet, anyone with a computer and orbit computation or numerical integration software can verify the consequences of introducing a delay into gravitational interactions. The effect on computed orbits is usually disastrous because conservation of angular momentum is destroyed. ...
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. The Speed of Gravity equals the speed of light
The Speed of Gravity equals the speed of light


First speed of gravity measurement revealed

20:30 07 January 03

NewScientist.com news service


The speed of gravity has been measured for the first time. The landmark experiment shows that it travels at the speed of light, meaning that Einstein's general theory of relativity has passed another test with flying colours.

Ed Fomalont of the National Radio Astronomy Observatory in Charlottesville, Virginia, and Sergei Kopeikin of the University of Missouri in Columbia made the measurement, with the help of the planet Jupiter.

"We became the first two people to know the speed of gravity, one of the fundamental constants of nature," the scientists say, in an article in New Scientist print edition. One important consequence of the result is that it places constraints on theories of "brane worlds", which suggest the Universe has more spatial dimensions than the familiar three.

John Baez, a physicist from the University of California at Riverside, comments: "Einstein wins yet again." He adds that any other result would have come as a shock.

Isaac Newton thought the influence of gravity was instantaneous, but Einstein assumed it travelled at the speed of light and built this into his 1915 general theory of relativity.

Light-speed gravity means that if the Sun suddenly disappeared from the centre of the Solar System, the Earth would remain in orbit for about 8.3 minutes - the time it takes light to travel from the Sun to the Earth. Then, suddenly feeling no gravity, Earth would shoot off into space in a straight line.

The rest of the article:
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993232
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Thanks for the reference, but then why don't orbits decay ...
as predicted if a delay is included in calculating using a non-instantaneous speed of gravity?
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Sialia Donating Member (181 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Speed of gravity
There's no reason for a delay in gravity propagation to make orbits decay. Orbits decay due to loss of energy for one reason or another, and retardation effects don't cause loss of energy in and of themselves.

The speed of gravity is the same as the speed of propagation of electromagnetic forces and waves in a vacuum. So the same effect arises for electromagnetic forces. Retardation effects for electromagnetism are well known and mostly easy to take into account. Nobody bothers to do it for gravity because the effects are not significant, especially on scales like that of the solar system or a galaxy or even a galaxy cluster.
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. a question...
i don't even know if i can frame it properly...

what difference does the speed of gravity make...if the gravity is already there?

or (to ask the question another way)

if the leading edge of the "gravity wave" has already passed you by (the object causing the gravity has been formed long enough that the effects of its gravity have reached you, whether that effect was instantaneous or was something less than instantaneous)...so now the effects of the objects gravity are fully manifested from your locale...what difference would the effects of that gravity be (now that they are fully manifested) whether gravity was instantaneous or travelling at the speed of light or at some other speed? Why would orbits decay at different rates?

no, i am far from a higher math god. however, if you need some simple trig done, i am more than adequate.
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Sialia Donating Member (181 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Speed of gravity
I'm commenting a fair bit in this thread because relativity was once my specialty. Anyway, if you want the nitty gritty details, the reason that gravity propagates at the speed of light (in vacuo) is that both light and gravity are mediated by massless particles of a type called a boson. Bosons mediate all four fundamental forces. The other two fundamental forces are mediated by massive bosons. The distance over which the force acts is inversely related to the mass of the carrier particles, so a massive carrier particle implies a short-range force, whereas the two forces mediated by massless particles have, in principle, infinite range.

The carrier boson for electromagnetism is the particle of light, i.e. the photon. The carrier boson for gravity is called the graviton.

The "speed of light" could just as well be called the "speed of electromagnetism" or the "speed of gravity." It's really not light per se that is fundamental, but the propagation speeds of those forces.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. thanks
great explanation...I hope you're teaching somewhere :thumbsup:
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. Is there an orbit problem if a non-infinite speed is used?
:-)
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. Isn't this experiment still disputed, despite press coverage?

http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/Phys-speed-of-gravity.html

Berkeley Lab Physicist Challenges Speed of Gravity Claim

Contact: Lynn Yarris (510) 486-5375, [email protected]


BERKELEY, CA — Albert Einstein may have been right that gravity travels at the same speed as light but, contrary to a claim made earlier this year, the theory has not yet been proven. A scientist at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab) says the announcement by two scientists, widely reported this past January, about the speed of gravity was wrong.

Stuart Samuel, a participating scientist with the Theory Group of Berkeley Lab’s Physics Division, in a paper published in Physical Review Letters, has demonstrated that an “ill-advised” assumption made in the earlier claim led to an unwarranted conclusion.

“Einstein may be correct about the speed of gravity but the experiment in question neither confirms nor refutes this,” says Samuel. “In effect, the experiment was measuring effects associated with the propagation of light, not the speed of gravity.”

According to Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity, light and gravity travel at the same speed, about 186,000 miles (300,000 kilometers) per second. Most scientists believe this is true, but the assumption was that it could only be proven through the detection of gravity waves. Sergei Kopeikin, a University of Missouri physicist, and Edward Fomalont, an astronomer at the National Radio Astronomy Observatory (NRAO), believed there was an alternative.

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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
2. actually that is all a Moot point now.. the new discoveries on Dark Matter
have changed everything...

For instance..... all what we call "matter" and all the Physical Stuff the galaxies and stars are made of, etc.. actually only represent 4% of the actual "Material" in the universe.. the rest is referred to as "Dark Matter". what it is and how it works is still pretty much a mystery.. except it is accelerating the galaxies apart at incredible speeds, perhaps that will exceed the speed of light.

it is now a Whole new ball game, and we don't even know the rules, more less what the "ball" is actually made of.
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Sialia Donating Member (181 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Dark matter versus dark energy
Dark matter doesn't cause the acceleration you have read about. Dark matter is still just matter and interacts gravitationally like any other massive matter.

The so-called "dark energy" causes the acceleration. Dark energy is *not* matter but is something like an energy of the vacuum itself.

The current data indicate that about 10% of matter is "normal" baryonic matter (i.e. made of protons and neutrons). 90% is dark. There are some theories as to what kind of (so far undiscovered) particle might make up the dark matter.

The influence of dark energy is separate from that due to any matter, and enters into the equations of gravity as a repulsive rather than an attractive force.
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Do not underestimate ...
the dark side of the Force.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
5. That is a great paper - But he begins by retaining causality, and ends
Edited on Mon Nov-29-04 05:21 PM by papau
with QM as a wrong turn.

and as posted above, retardation orbit decay is the item he hangs the paper on - and that depends on a vector that may not exist.

I wish I understood this stuff!

:-)

religious faith is much easier to hold!
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kranich Donating Member (219 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
8. I is simple actually
there are two prevailing theories. One is that the "velocity of gravity" is instantaneous and the other is that v=c. It depends on which "school of thought" you subscribe to. All the other mumbo jumbo is just physics geeks trying to argue one point or the other.
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Sialia Donating Member (181 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. There are not two competing theories
The theory with infinite speed for gravity is Newton's law. It is a very good approximation, because the speed of gravity is extremely large, especially compared to speeds we would encounter in our everyday lives. However, Newton's theory is known to be incomplete. The best approximation known now is Einstein's general relativity. (That will require some modification to fit it into the rest of physics, which hasn't really been accomplished yet. So for now it's by far the best we've got.) It's relativity that predicts v_g = c.

Not even Newton really believed that the speed of gravity was infinite. He expected that a better theory would supercede his own one day, which did happen although it took nearly 250 years.

There are major, major consequences for a universe in which the speed of gravity is infinite. They would definitely be observable, and they are quite assuredly not observed.
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kranich Donating Member (219 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. I did not mean to imply
that Newton thought it's velocity was "infinite" rather that it was so fast that it suffices as instantaneous. But my understanding is that Newton stands in contrast to relativityI mean logically, of v_g is at or equal to c then one is correct and the other wrong and vice versa. I am just a lay person in this matter and always willing to learn.
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. This is why experiments are undertaken:
to let observation decide the matter, rather than letting it simply be a battle of words.
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Lefty48197 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
14. Gravity is a force not a velocity
forces cause changes in velocity.
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