Whooping cough epidemic in California

[XemaSab]

Whooping cough is now an epidemic in California, and is on pace to break a 50-year record for infections and deaths for the year.

As of June 15, California had 910 recorded cases of the highly contagious disease, and five babies — all under 3 months of age — have died from the disease this year.

"Children should be vaccinated against the disease and parents, family members and caregivers of infants need a booster shot," said California Department of Public Health director Dr. Mark Horton on Wednesday.

This year's surge in whooping cough cases, which is also known as pertussis, is a fourfold increase from the same period last year, when 219 cases were recorded.



Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2010/06/23/state/n111147D00.DTL&tsp=1#ixzz0rhl23MF5

[Oregone]

1. I got this a couple of years ago. Really sucks

Yeah, strange the way it comes in waves to different regions

[Barack_America]

5. I had it years ago. Got revaccinated this year just in case.

Do NOT want it again.

[Oregone]

7. Well, after getting it...

Shouldn't you have an immunity for some length of time?

I didn't bother to get re-vaxed.

[Barack_America]

15. I'm not sure they know how long the immunity lasts.

Adults are getting whooping cough because they've lost immunity along the way.

I'd imagine that you'd still be covered after just 2 years though. I also think they are now bundling it with the tetanus vaccination, so next time you get that you'll probably get revaccinated for pertussis.

[frustrated_lefty]

140. Re-vaccination isn't always required.

You can just ask to have your blood titers checked, and they'll actually run a panel to determine which of several infectious agents you've lost immunity to.

[loudsue]

61. Me, too! In 2006/2007, at the age of 57.

No wonder it kills so many people. It's a rough disease.

[Oregone]

74. I got it in my mid 20s.

My wife slept by me every night and was not affected

[Liberal_in_LA]

2. I had no idea. Scary

[Ian David]

3. ...

[hlthe2b]

4. ahh, Pertussis...

'thought you were referring to Fiorina and Whitman campaigns...

[hugo_from_TN]

6. Thanks to the anti-vaccers n/t

[Ian David]

8. Their WILLFUL ignorance leaves behind a trail of murdered babies. n/t

[Oregone]

10. "murdered babies"

Holy shit. That's abortion clinic protester crazy talk

Keep on keeping on. That sort of language will lead to healthy dialogue.

[Ian David]

11. The anti-vaxers do not have a reasonable position. The body count they create is inexcusable. n/t

[Oregone]

12. Nor do the abortion doctors!!!1!!!1

[Ian David]

14. I'm not talking about fetuses or embryos.. I'm talking about actual, BORN people. Geesh. n/t

[Oregone]

16. Gesh. I'm so unreasonable to point out hyperbole

MURDERED BABIES!!1!!!1! With butcher knives and lack of vaccines! Its like a Romero movie!!! Zombie viruses!

[Ian David]

17. People who refuse to vaccinate spread disease to those who are too young to be vaccinated.

For example, to babies.

Who die.

It's called murder.

Period.

[Oregone]

19. "It's called murder."

ZOMG! The baby killers are coming!!!!!!

[TZ]

27. My sister has an autoimmune disease

She can't get vaccinated. So an anti-vaxx woo-woo who came into her house sick and not knowing it. Could indeed kill her. Anti-vaxxers are best described as Pro- Infectious disease because they are the best friend a viri can have.

[Oregone]

32. "Could indeed kill her"

Could indeed MURDER her.

[TZ]

39. Typhoid Mary was labelled a murderer

For very good reason. I ask you again where you got your epidemiology degree since you seem to know everything NOT!
Perhaps you want to fly on a plane with someone who knows they have active, drug resistant TB as well, since apparantly thats not a crime either?

[Oregone]

41. You need an epidemiology degree to recognize hyperbole?

[TZ]

45. See my post below

Its not hyperbole to say that an anti-vaxxer is capable of murder.

[Oregone]

50. "an anti-vaxxer is capable of murder"

Everyone is capable of murder, to some extent (though, there are a few exceptions, considering disabilities that may prevent one from actually doing the deed)

[Bluenorthwest]

122. "He who can pick up a frying pan owns death."

William S Boroughs...

[Oregone]

136. Awesome quote

[Barack_America]

55. No. It's fair.

If you know you are a carrier to a disease that can kill people and knowingly and willingly continue to expose people...well, what other word is there?

Likewise, if a kid unvaccinated to Measles or Rubella comes down with a fever and a rash, they have to be sequestered from other people. And, with the rise of pertussis, now any unvaccinated child with a cough should be treated likewise. This may result in a child missing a lot of school and their parents work, but this is what their parents have chosen and choices come with consequences. If a person is unwilling to vaccinate their child, they have no right to count on the vaccination of others. For, as TZ pointed out, there are some people who do not have the choice to protect themselves because they either cannot be vaccinated or do not respond to vaccines. It is unfair (and I would sympathize with the argument of criminal) for these people who have no choice to be jeopardized by the choices of others.

[Oregone]

59. Thats not what we are talking about

"If you know you are a carrier to a disease that can kill people and knowingly and willingly continue to expose people...well, what other word is there?"

We are talking about anti-vaxxer nuts. Those people who don't believe in vaccinating kids for whatever reasons. Maybe their magic magnets told them not to.

Whatever they believe, you are making a big leap there from a belief to a hypothetical action of exposing people & potentially killing them. Yes, it could be *possible*, but statistically speaking, its just as possible that their children and others are never exposed. Calling everyone with some belief murderers of babies is absurdity. Most of them may not even know what they are doing, and even if something does happen, there is no guarantee of death. Getting sick and dying by contracting a disease on accident from another person (no matter how ignorant) is probably not even grounds for a manslaughter charge (unless that ignorant person knew they had a fatal disease and exposed others instead of being quarantined).

Murder of babies is over-the-top. Its a broad-brush attack that is clearly against DU rules

[Barack_America]

64. You said that Typhoid Mary being called a murderer was "hyperbole"...

...I argued against that point and brought in the modern issues of the anti-vaccers.

Seems on topic to me.

And I also don't think that it's such a big leap. Everybody knows that people die from these diseases. Why else would there be vaccines for them? If someone decides to not vaccinate their child, and thus know that their child is susceptible to a serious disease, then fails to sequester their child from others when the child exhibits symptoms of the disease, I believe that they should be subject to criminal charges if the ultimate tragedy should occur. In this case, a charge of murder would go too far, but manslaughter may be appropriate.

The case of Typhoid Mary is the extreme of this scenario, where you had a woman who knew she passed on a disease that had already killed people and went on to willingly expose others. That's why the distinction of "murderer" is appropriate for her.

[Oregone]

71. We aren't talking about Typhoid Mary

We are talking about typical mom (and advocates) who believe vaccines may hurt their children's health. Right or wrong their belief may be, I believe calling them baby murderers is overstating your case.

Im not even a fan of people who believe stupid shit, like religion or dogma. But broad-brushing a group as baby murderers is about as anti-intellectual as you can get.

[Barack_America]

73. "Typhoid Mary was labelled a murderer"

That's the title of the post you responded to. And I responded to your post.

We're talking about whether symptomatic people who are unvaccinated to a disease could ever be labeled "murderers". Typhoid Mary was brought up as an example of someone who spread a disease and was in fact labeled a "murderer". We then discussed whether this was appropriate or "hyperbole" as you stated it.

Is your recollection of the discussion different?

[Oregone]

76. Typhoid Mary isn't a concerned mom with an unfounded belief

Invoking her name is hyperbole. So it was dumb to drag her into the discussion the first time, and dumber to drag her in again

This sub-thread started as an hyperbolic attack against "anti-vaxers", which labeled them baby murderers. Its a broad-brush attack against a group (which is against DU rules) that doesn't even necessarily have any diseases to spread whatsoever (unlike Typhoid Mary). This "group" of believing souls also doesn't forcefully and actively defy quarantines, thereby infecting others. Anti-vaxxers are worried about vaccines, but to deny one has a communicable disease and spread it willingly is a completely different matter.


"Is your recollection of the discussion different?"

Very much so. The entire Typhoid Mary angle is a laughable tangent that has nothing to do with the anti-vaccination movement (or rather, the baby murderers).

[Barack_America]

86. Let's not go back and forth when we essentially agree.

I, like you, have stated that "murder" goes much to far in describing anti-vaccers' liability. I personally feel that "manslaughter" may be appropriate, but would depend on whether people are aware of the risks, which you smartly pointed out many are not.

The main thing I have taken away from this entire thread thus far is that our governments (including state and local) need to do a MUCH better job educating the public about communicable diseases, vaccines for them, and the relative risks associated with both.

[uppityperson]

83. So rather than giving it to the mods to decide you decide to continue to kick this

Thanks for making sure more people can see this

[Barack_America]

85. Why would this be a situation for the mods to intervene?

We are having a calm discussion about anti-vaccination and responsibility for the risks it assumes.

There has been no name calling what-so-ever. There's no need to run to the mods just because you disagree with someone. How can you expect to learn anything that way?

And, btw, thanks for the kick yourself. ;)

[Oregone]

89. A broad-brush attack against those opposed to vaccinations (anti-vaxers) as baby murders...

doesn't seem to comply with DU rules

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8603151&mesg_id=8603151

Broad-brush or Extreme Group Attack - When discussing groups of DU members, the following are considered broad-brush group attacks:
- Broad-brush attack - intended to paint all people belonging to a particular group in a negative light. (The word "all" can be explicitly stated or implied.)
- Name-calling - Referring to any group of DU members by names intended to paint them in a negative light.
- Suggesting that any group of DU members are conservatives, disruptors, or similar.
- Belittling people who are new or have a low post count.
- Suggesting that any group of DU members are not Democrats, liberals, or progressives.
- Suggesting that a particular point of view is required in order to be a Democrat, liberal, or progressive.
- Note: As a general guideline, if it is possible to identify specific individuals who are being attacked, then it is against the rules. But if the attack is against a vaguely defined group of "some but not all" people, then it might be permitted.


Not to mention, pointing this out has also led to me being called a "fool" and labeled in this insane group.

Look, I got thick skin, and am not really gung ho about rules, but hey, if they are going to be used sometimes, lets not have them become arbitrary.

[Barack_America]

93. Anti-vaccers are a DU group?

I thought the person who offered the "murderer" description, which was not me BTW, was responding to the people mentioned in the article. Are they DU members?

It sounds like by your interpretation of the rules broadbrush attacks against Republicans would also be a rule violation.

[Oregone]

94. Search the forum, and youll find some post here

"which was not me BTW"

Good to hear, but you did defend it quite a bit (it seems).

[Barack_America]

95. I defended the position of calling Typhoid Mary a murderer...

...and repeatedly disagreed with calling anti-vaccers that.

Some of every group posts on DU. If we're going to interpret that "broadbrush" rule so loosely, we won't be allowed to criticize anyone or anything.

ETA: Not sure if you saw this earlier reply to you.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8620935&mesg_id=8622038

[Oregone]

97. Gotcha

I found invoking her name to be hyperbolic in the first place, and quite tangential.


"we won't be allowed to criticize anyone or anything."

Yep, quite concerning.

[uppityperson]

131. Oregone complains "Its a broad-brush attack that is clearly against DU rules"

If he/she truly thinks it is, then report it.

I'm happy to kick so more people can see about this outbreak.

[Name removed]

174. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzmolly]

184. I would like to suggest that if a VACCINATED child comes down with

fever and a rash they should also be sequestered from others. Any vaccinated kid with a cough should be treated as an unvaccinated child would. Vaccination status should not dictate care or = less precaution. As you know, vaccinated children can get ill with the disease they've been vaccinated against. They too can spread disease. Recent studies have suggested that this may be especially true for pertussis.

[mzmolly]

129. So, your sister is antivaccine?

eom

[mzmolly]

179. When did you have your adult pertussis jab?

:hi:

[JoeyT]

171. Well, when it isn't hyperbole, it is kind of unreasonable.

Would you consider it "murder" for someone that was HIV positive to bleed on a child? Even if they insisted HIV didn't really cause AIDS, so it didn't matter?

Same difference. Denial of science is causing easily preventable diseases to kill children.
Murder may be a bit much. Negligent homicide is actually the correct term, and what they should be charged with if their woo ends up killing someone.

[frustrated_lefty]

141. They do have a reasonable position.

I happen to be in favor of most vaccinations. But, there is a certain lethality rate associated with many, if not most, vaccinations. Sure, it may be one in a thousand, one in ten thousand or less. If it's YOUR child who died in response to the vaccine, it is perfectly understandable and human and reasonable to have a volatile anti-vaccine stance.

I won't apologize for the anti-vaccine crew. I over-rode my ex-wife and insisted my daughter be vaccinated. I would simply suggest that the anger or resentment you feel towards the anti-vaccine crowd might be better devoted to demanding the government fund research to develop better vaccines with lower associated morbidity and mortality.

[Confusious]

150. You got your numbers wrong

Try 1 in a million, or 1 in ten million.

You have a better chance to be hit by lightning or winning the lottery.

Oh, and that's only a MILD side effect. Like an itch or rash at the injection spot.

try 1 in 100 million for something serious.

They have a completely UNREASONABLE, ILLOGICAL position

[frustrated_lefty]

152. No, friend, you are mistaken.

The mortality and morbidity associated with individual vaccines varies tremendously. I really don't know of a single vaccine which has a 1 in a million chance of morbidity or mortality, although the Hep B vaccine is really good.

Odd thing is, you're arguing against a person in favor of vaccines.

But, if you're going to make these claims, why not talk about the anthrax vaccine which is forced on every member of the military?

Some vaccines are pretty decent. Some suck. Almost all can be improved.

[Confusious]

153. When you talk to an anti-vaxxer

They're not complaining about the anthrax vaccine. They're talking about the MMR.

But, if you're going to make these claims, why not talk about the anthrax vaccine which is forced on every member of the military?

Because it would be completely off topic, and nowhere near the point. We're talking about the most common vaccines that have been given since they started vaccines. MMR, polio, whooping cough. The ones every American should get.

1 in 1 Million to 1 in 10 million. That was the swine flu vaccine this last winter. I argue about this all the time and I looked the numbers up.

I really don't know of a single vaccine which has a 1 in a million chance of morbidity or mortality

You have to be kidding. less then a 1 in 1 million of mortality. you think less then 1 in 1 million died from normal childhood vaccines.

I guess it's a sign of how much their lies have worked if you believe that.

[frustrated_lefty]

155. Don't be an ass, quote me honestly:

"I really don't know of a single vaccine which has a 1 in a million chance of morbidity or mortality"

Did you notice, I said "single" and I also referred to "morbidity?" That was clearly stated to mean that all occur with a greater frequency and not with a lesser frequency than 1 in a million. Morbidity, just to clarify, is DIFFERENT than mortality.

And, no, you can't discount the anthrax vaccine. If we're to talk about vaccines in general, we have to consider the best and the worst. One of the greatest obstacles to universal vaccination is parental objection. To obtain parental consent, we have to inform the public about the nature of vaccines. Live, dead, recombinant. Vaccines, by and large, kick ass. We're doing a disservice to the American people if/when we lie to them and pretend they're all hunky dory, and those people whose kids died are just whack jobs.

There is a mortality rate. It's our job to make better vaccines with a lower mortality rate.

[Confusious]

160. Your sentence could have been taken either way

Be more clear next time. You're repeating anti-vaxxer talking points, so that's the way I took it.

and yes I can discount the anthrax vaccine, because that's not the one they are complaining about. They don't give it to everyone, and they don't give it to children.

If you want a lower mortality rate, maybe you should start with cars, or lightning, or dying of a heart attack after winning the lottery, because all those have a greater risk of death.

"I just want a safer vaccine, and if it's not 101%, then its no good"

You want a guarantee for vaccines that you won't get from anything else in life. You certainly won't get it from a disease.

One of the greatest obstacles to universal vaccination is parental objection. To obtain parental consent, we have to inform the public about the nature of vaccines.

Really. Inform people about "the nature" of vaccines. They're going to stop watching "American Idol" long enough to understand, you think? Taking you as an example, you've already bitten into the "vaccines are unsafe" meme. They were screaming about mercury in the vaccines, when there was ethyl mercury in the vaccines. Not the same thing, you can tell me why. When a study found rates NO different between vaccinated and vaccinated, they still said vaccines caused autism. One guy who started "Generation Rescue" said he didn't give a shit about studies, the vaccines caused autism.

They didn't learn enough when small pox was wiped out. No more polio. except of course, small pockets in India, where they don't take it because they they think the UN is trying to sterilize them. So it sits, waiting to return. Other diseases no longer in the United States, but are making a comeback because of people not getting vaccines.

I have never, every heard of anyone dying from vaccines. I have heard of people dying from disease that was preventable.

Oh, I forgot. Big pharma is hiding the deaths. And they hid the deaths of people in my 200+ Irish catholic family.

[frustrated_lefty]

161. The nature of vaccines

Killed. Attenuated. Recombinant. It's only in the last 30 years we've managed to make recombinant vaccines. They work pretty well. Maybe 1 in 200 people can explain the difference? Yeah, I think people should be better educated about what's going to be done to their kids.

If you haven't heard of a person dying from a vaccine, you haven't been paying attention or you're really not up on the literature.

This, though, takes the cake: "If you want a lower mortality rate, maybe you should start with cars, or lightning, or dying of a heart attack after winning the lottery, because all those have a greater risk of death."

Those are all good issues. But, we're talking about vaccines, and I am saying there is room for better vaccines. Your argument seems to be "stop bitching, it's good enough," as though there were a single vaccine for everything and existing morbidity and mortality rates are acceptable.

[Confusious]

162. No, My argument was in there

You have more of a chance of dying from a thousand other things.

Everything the anti-vaxx people have blamed for autism has been shown not to be the case.

Then they move on to the next thing, which is disproved, and then the next, which is disproved, rinse and repeat.

Vaccines -> SIDS

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/vaccine_sids.htm

I didn't read it, waste of time. Viera_Scheibner -> Micropaleontology ( Geologist) That's who they quote in a medical field.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viera_Scheibner

Actually, I kind of looked through it for a laugh:

The bottom line to Dr. Scheibner's scientifically flawless arguments is that those who are designing and implementing vaccine policy are doing so with the full knowledge that their policies are killing babies. Furthermore, published medical literature shows that vaccines are altering the genetic code of people and causing them to suffer damage to their immune systems which is making them vulnerable to numerous physical and psychological complications.

From: http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/vaccine_sids.htm

Dr Stephen Basser has written an extensive critical review of "the quality of the science of ... Scheibner" entitled Anti-immunisation scare: The inconvenient facts. One of his criticisms involves a conclusion Scheibner makes regarding a potential correlation between SIDS and immunisation in Japan. After review of her principal sources and her resultant conclusion, he states that

"Dr. Scheibner's analysis of them...is at best sloppy, and at worst blatantly dishonest."<1>


In 1997, the Australian Skeptics awarded her the "Bent Spoon Award". This award is presented annually to the Australian "perpetrator of the most preposterous piece of pseudoscientific piffle":

"The unanimous choice of the judges was Dr Viera Scheibner for her high profile anti-immunisation campaign which, by promoting new age and conspiracy mythology and by owing little to scientific methodologies or research, poses a serious threat to the health of Australian children."<2>


Lon Morgan, DC, a chiropractor, has written a short analysis of her anti-vaccination stance,<3> as well as an examination of Scheibner's claims of a disappearance of SIDS in Japan.<4> He concludes that:

"Whether it was due to personal bias, lack of relevant health science training, or inept research on her part, or a combination, Ms. Scheibner's claims have not withstood the test of time, or critical examination, and should be rejected."<4>

An extensive critique of her claims and qualifications has been published in an article in the Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics.<5>


Commissioner William Carter, Q.C., who was hearing a Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission enquiry in which Viera Scheibner was called as a witness, dismissed her claims on the subject of vaccines, saying of her:

"...I am not satisfied that her formal qualifications and professional experience properly equip her to provide a valid professional opinion on the complex subject of immunology..." and
"...one must question her capacity to properly evaluate and interpret the results of others' scientific experience. I am not prepared therefore to accept her evidence in preference to that of Professor Pearn and Drs Whitby and Feery." <6>

In 2001, the Hon Dr Brian Pezzutti criticised Viera's anti-vaccination campaigning in the NSW Legislative Council, saying:

"I draw attention misleading information provided by Dr Viera Scheibner ... who continuously writes against immunisation. In the 9 March edition of the Medical Observer, she submitted a very unusual letter makes claims that are not supported by the documentation she referred to. It is very important for people to realise that the information provided by Dr Scheibner is not accurate."<14>

How can I put this simply. You could probably make a better mouse trap out of a piece of wood, a spring and two wires. How much money and time are you going to spend on something that is probably as good as you can make it with today's technology.

In 20 years, there may be new techniques, there may not be. The flu is grow in chicken eggs, and that's how it's been since the 1930's.

Wouldn't that time and money be better spent making things that are safer, like cars, lightning rods and better heart medications?

If you google "mortality rates childhood vaccines" none lists death FROM vaccines. They all talk about death from disease that would not have happened if vaccines had been available. Plus a couple of anti-vaxx sites.

Come up with a link to A reputable source on childhood deaths FROM vaccines. I say very few happen ( 1 in 1 million a year, or less ), and are not the exclusive fault, in all cases, of a vaccine.

as though there were a single vaccine for everything and existing morbidity and mortality rates are acceptable.

You drive a car. That means you accept the mortality rates of the car. why do you not accept the mortality rates from vaccines which are FAR FAR FAR lower then that, and would be higher if it were not FOR the vaccines?

Why not ban bicycles? they caused 225 deaths in one year in fayette county ALONE! http://www.fayettecountyhealthdepartment.org/Bicycle_Safety.htm

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

33. Would you prefer "manslaughtered by willful neglect babies?"

[Oregone]

38. No. Murder is much more exciting. Annihilate, Destroy, Massacre and Whack are pretty sweet

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

42. Either way they've killed a baby for their own twisted ideology.

Anti-vaccers are more comparable to abortion clinic bombers than just protestors.

[Raineyb]

154. There is however, a difference between killing someone and actually murdering them

which apparently in your disdain for those anti-vaccine people you've decided to deliberately overlook them in order to demonize them.

[TZ]

43. What do you think of someone who doesn't tell their partner

That they have HIV? And then that person gets AIDS and dies? People have been convicted and sent to prison on murder charges for that.
Why don't you admit you are ignorant of medical ethics and law along with not having a clue about epidemiology?

[Oregone]

51. So, the law has found those type who knowingly transmit HIV as guilty

Has the law also found anti-vaxxers who believe crazy shit guilty of murder? Closest thing I can recall are Christian Science parents being found guilty of negligent homicide (I think).

Just curious.

Or is this a value judgment you are making?

[Raineyb]

156. Let's see, you're comparing someone who knowingly spreads a disease to someone

who infects by accident?

Why exactly are you trying to make a happenstance passing of an illness someone doesn't know they have to someone deliberately spreading disease? You do your argument no good whatsoever. I don't even agree with the anti-vaccine people but I find your argument hyperbolic and idiotic.

[Confusious]

149. You've never tried having a "healthy dialogue" with one have you?

Nothing you say matters, nobody else matters. Just them, and what they want, and whatever fantasy land they live in, where they are special, and their children are special, and they will never get sick.

[mzmolly]

35. There is no evidence that California parents are not vaccinating. Quite the contrary.

http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/immunize/Documents/2009SchoolIZRateTable1.pdf

[Barack_America]

72. Unfortunately that measles outbreak in San Diego last year argues against this.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm57e222a1.htm

A lot of intentional unvaccinated kids got pretty sick.

[mzmolly]

124. I've read about the single boy who stopped herd immunity in it's

tracks, thanks.

[Xithras]

28. Actually, it has more to do with undocumented immigrants.

Pertussis vaccinations weren't routine in rural Mexico until relatively recently, and a very large portion of the adult population there is not vaccinated against it. California has a very large population of undocumented immigrants (official estimates vary between 2.2 and 3 million people), and most of the pertussis cases are occuring within that population. The immunization programs in Mexico TODAY are very good, but that wasn't the case 25 years ago. Officially, 80% of the pertussis cases recorded in California since 1998 have occurred in the immigrant Hispanic population. Because vaccinations are a standard part of the legal immigration process, nearly all of that 80% has occurred within the undocumented population.

ALL of the infant deaths have occurred after they were exposed to infected adults. Babies can't be vaccinated against pertussis until 6 months, and are completely vulnerable before then.

This has little to do with the anti-vaccers, and almost everything to do with the lack of medical care available to undocumented immigrants.

[jmm]

67. It was nearly an epidemic in my area when I was in high school.

Anti vaccers had nothing to do with it. Vaccination requirements often change causing many to slip beween the cracks.

[slackmaster]

9. My mom nearly died of pertussis when she was a little girl

This epidemic is the result of the anti-vaccine movement and uncontrolled immigration.

[mod mom]

13. I picked up whooping cough while working on the Kerry Campaign & canvassing.

It was nasty.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

18. Why is pertussis on the rise in CA?

Is it being spread by adults whose immunity from the vaccine has weakened over time, thus they're catching it? I could see that anyway. It's all but impossible for an adult to take the 21-days off work while they're contagious.

[ORDagnabbit]

25. one arguement against our immigration policy (or lack of one) is because of the diseases

that are brought in.


small things like the New York, health department attributed 81 percent of new TB cases in 2001 to immigrants...

but like other things here its verboten to speak of.

[slackmaster]

31. Here's a list of vaccination requirements for getting an immigrant visa

* Hepatitis A
* Hepatitis B
* Influenza
* Influenza type b (Hib)
* Measles
* Meningococcal
* Mumps
* Pneumococcal
* Pertussis
* Polio
* Rotavirus
* Rubella
* Tetanus and diphtheria toxoids
* Varicella

Source: http://travel.state.gov/visa/immigrants/info/info_1331.html

We have occasional outbreaks of food-borne hepatitis here in California, almost always traced to an unvaccinated immigrant.

[ORDagnabbit]

48. so legal immigrants are safe and illegal immigrants aren't. good arguement.

[slackmaster]

56. I think it's a very good argument for reforming our immigration system

So that it's easy to come into this country legally to work.

Some people who bypass the system and haven't had their shots pose a real threat to public health.

[Oregone]

60. Its a good argument for reforming the immigration system, yes...

But to do so at the cost of excluding a path to citizenship is unacceptable to many

[amborin]

102. it's why we must extend health care to EVERYONE here; comm diseases don't respect borders or papers

[Raineyb]

158. It certainly makes the argument for single payer health care that's accessible to

everyone. Of course as per usual, this country will probably learn exactly the wrong lesson from this.

[krabigirl]

128. People come here from all over the world, and yes, some of them aren't vaccinated. (ro)

I am not demonizing them, but it is what it is. I vaccinate my kids on schedule.

[mzmolly]

178. "Is it being spread by adults whose immunity from the vaccine has weakened over time?"

Thanks for the thoughtful question. Chances are that adults (in need of the newer booster) are the main culprit given children are vaccinated in high numbers. Pediatricians are a likely reservoir, so it would be interesting to know how many are up to date on boosters.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

20. My sons couldn't be immunized for it because my older son had a very serious

reaction to his first DPT inoculation. The doctor just gave him the DT shots after that and when my second son was born, only received DT shots as well.

[Oregone]

21. Careful

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8620935&mesg_id=8621129

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Oregone]

40. "Take your anti-vaxx nastiness elsewhere, fool."

Firstly, Im merely pointing out that hyperbolic discussions about science aren't very likely to create constructive dialogue.

Secondly, regarding "fool", please review new site rules

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

44. Please review the rules yourself.

Particularly about pseudoscientific conspiracy bullshit getting posted outside of the 9-11 forum.

[Oregone]

52. Who is posting "pseudoscientific conspiracy bullshit"?

Specific examples would be nice.

[TZ]

47. Its not hyperbole

and you are posting foolish things over and over. Please read about Typhoid Mary before you respond again. There's a REASON why her name is so well known.

[Oregone]

53. I thought she just has a cool name

Seriously...Id name a rock band after her.

I post foolish information? Look, Im not coining baby murderers here.

[Name removed]

175. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

Is what you post "very likely to create constructive dialogue"? It doesn't seem so.

Perhaps a reading of the new rules might be in order for you?

[Oregone]

90. You know where the "Alert" link is

[uppityperson]

132. Naw, just amused at your complaint when you are doing the same

"Firstly, Im merely pointing out that hyperbolic discussions about science aren't very likely to create constructive dialogue. "

[Oregone]

137. I cite every violation since the new rules

Its my hobby. We need to make sure rules don't become arbitrary excuses for selective enforcement against undesirables. Zero tolerance.

[uppityperson]

142. That is a good thing.

I also have concerns about arbitrariness. I'm glad you are watching. (seriously)

[Oregone]

144. No, its an anoying thing

At least I think so

[uppityperson]

145. Again, I agree

It is a good thing and it is an annoying thing. These new rules are a bit much, imo. How they are enforced will be interesting to see.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

63. What else is new here? lol!

[Heywood J]

23. Might be worthwhile to ask the doc about the acellular shot the next time they go.

It's no longer inactivated virus, just the specific antigens.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

62. Thanks for your recommendation but my sons are 19 and 23 now.

[Heywood J]

119. No worries, then!

:hi:

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

181. No! There aren't!

:hi:

[Heywood J]

22. Thank you, anti-vaccine crowd, for bringing back a preventable disease.

The DTaP vaccine (vs DTP) does a much better job on controlling adverse reactions, but that's apparently not good enough. I'm waiting for Jenny McCarthy and others to step forward and claim responsibility for this.

[Oregone]

24. Itll always be around because adults aren't immune

They don't know this until they contract it (like I did)

Pointing fingers isn't always constructive

[TZ]

36. Like small pox?

Adults aren't particularly immune either (they say that the vaccine lasts 10-20 years typically) and YET because of a VERY VERY AGGRESSIVE immunization in this country, its not around anymore.
Funny how countries with active anti-vaxx movements keep having diseases like Polio (in Africa) and Measles in GB keep cropping up whereas in places with active aggressive vaccine programs these diseases are rare. Pointing fingers is actually constructive. I'd quit while you are behind here. I actually have an immunological background, professionally and do know what I'm talking about.
Oh and because of anti-vaxx hysteria in GB, typhoid has been reimported to GB as well from travelers overseas who refuse to be vaccinated.

[Oregone]

49. Well, not every disease is directly comparable

Pertussis is a bit of a sleeper, and difficult to diagnose immediately. This makes containment difficult, practically speaking.

Or do you believe the eradication of one disease implies EVERY contagious disease can be similarly eradicated? Just curious

[Heywood J]

121. Actually, it looks like pertussis uses only humans as a reservoir.

Not all diseases do, but those like smallpox and pertussis that do can truly be eliminated by worldwide vaccination.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bordetella_pertussis

There does not appear to be a zoonotic reservoir for B. pertussis—humans are its only host.

http://sprojects.mmi.mcgill.ca/tropmed/disease/pert/trans.htm

The reservoir for pertussis is human. No animal or insect source or vector is known to exist. Adolescents and adults are an important reservoir for B. pertussis and are often the source of infection for infants.

http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/167/10/1146

Bordetella pertussis is a small, gram-negative rod that causes severe respiratory disease in humans. It has no known animal or environmental reservoir; humans are the only natural host and assumed reservoir.

[Oregone]

138. And?

Finding those human reservoirs is not easy between diagnosis difficulties, incubation time, and the amount of time people are contagious

Its not all so simple, or it would of been eliminated long ago

[frustrated_lefty]

143. The point is

if every single living person on the planet, or at least roughly the same percentage as inoculated against small pox, is inoculated against B. pertussis within a 6-12 month period, it would be eliminated. Yes, it would take a monumental effort. So did small pox. There would be no animal reservoirs, it does not produce spores. It could literally be eradicated, if the will was there.

[Heywood J]

147. Never said it was simple, only that it appeared possible.

We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard.

Eliminating an infectious disease that has the potential to kill infants and cause debilitation is a noble goal and something we could do to raise the quality of life for everyone on this planet. Pertussis is one such disease that can be eliminated solely by vaccinations. That's part of leaving the world a better place than when we found it.

[Barack_America]

68. Actually you can check.

I just had my immune status checked for MMR, varicella, tetanus and HepB checked.

[Oregone]

80. Cool. I didn't know about that.

I wonder if they do that free up north here.

[Barack_America]

84. I don't think they'd even answer that question for free.

Unfortunately.

I'm in health care, so those tests are a little more available to us. The more common approach is to revaccinate/booster because it's faster, cheaper and addresses the same issue.

[mzmolly]

26. Unless you've had the recommended adult pertussis booster, you're an "anti-vaxer"

yourself.

[Barack_America]

69. Got it last December.

:hi:

I'm very careful about my immune status.

[mzmolly]

127. One of the few non-hypocrites

engaged in this debate. Thanks. :hi: ;)

[Heywood J]

118. Had the disease myself as a baby, thanks.

I've also worked seven years on cash in busy retail stores for past jobs and been exposed to just about every germ disease on this continent that's not solely blood-borne. It's part of the reason I touch hardly anything when out shopping (including carts), but I'm well-primed for antibodies.

[mzmolly]

125. So you've not had the booster?

Thanks for the clarification.

[Heywood J]

148. Considering we don't know exactly how long the antibodies last,

I'm not sure it's been long enough to need one yet. I should probably get one in the next five years or so when I re-up for tetanus.

[krabigirl]

130. I've had that, a couple of years ago before traveling.

[mzmolly]

29. This "epidemic" is in spite of high cooperation from parents.

http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/immunize/Documents/2009SchoolIZRateTable1.pdf

The so called "epidemic" is likely due to heightened awareness and a desire to push the new adult booster shot.

[Oregone]

34. Yeah, I didn't even know there was an adult booster before this thread

[mzmolly]

37. Most people don't. I remember our pediatrician being frustrated that there wasn't

a booster in the late 90's because she said that peds. were the most likely to spread the disease.

[PBS Poll-435]

46. Sad

I wish there was a vaccination for that disease.

[Barack_America]

58. Someday people will not have to die from these diseases. nt

[Juneboarder]

65. Because someday people will no longer live on this planet...

Disease will always be around.

[Barack_America]

66. Smallpox seems to be gone.

How did that happen again?

[Juneboarder]

92. It's not gone...

"Today, the smallpox virus is kept in two approved labs in the U.S. and Russia." (http://emergency.cdc.gov/agent/smallpox/basics/outbreak.asp)

All it takes is one nasty person or group to get a hold of this virus to open the potential for smallpox again.

[Barack_America]

98. Not if we start vaccinated for it again.

The small pox vaccine program was amazingly effective.

[Juneboarder]

100. Do you trust Russia to keep their vile of Smallpox

under secured control and in good hands? Wait, why even bother with Russia when our own country could care less about its citizens; they just report to the corporations and let them make all the calls.

[Barack_America]

105. No. Which is why I would love to be vaccinated against small pox....

...and advocate for resuming the small pox vaccination program in this country.

[Juneboarder]

109. I won't jump on that band-wagon...

Sorry, I just don't believe in vaccines. Everyone said that everyone MUST get the swine flu vaccine or else... OMG who knows?!?! Well guess what? I didn't get it, nor did any of my immediate family and we're all still here.

Don't believe the hype.

[Barack_America]

112. Crazy story about the H1N1 vaccine...

I got it six days before my boss returned from a trip sick as a dog and called a meeting. I sat closest to him in the meeting and yet was the only person who did not get sick. I was also the only person who was vaccinated. The illness tore through our workplace and completely shut it down for over a week. One coworker ended up in the hospital. I had never been big on getting flu vaccines before (it was mandatory this year), but after that experience I will be standing in line this Fall.

[Juneboarder]

116. Glad you didn't catch it!!

Nothing worse than being sick while pregnant...

[frustrated_lefty]

157. You mean vial, and America has a similar one

[Juneboarder]

168. Yes, vial not vile. sorry about that...

And yes, I'm aware of USA having a vial as well, as I posted that in the link above. My last post was saying why worry about trusting Russia when we can't even trust ourselves.

[Oregone]

77. My first thought too

[Barack_America]

78. Disease will exist, but targeted diseases can be eliminated by vaccination.

How many people do you know have died of polio, small pox, measles, etc. recently?

[Oregone]

79. If humans even exist

Hey, some Australian scientist just gave us 100 years. But, thats a whole other thread.

[Juneboarder]

99. Acutally, there was just a measles case reported at my son's

pediatrician office here in San Diego County just last month, May 2010.

[Barack_America]

106. Too coincidental. I just posted to you a CDC article about the SD measles outbreak of 2008...

...in which an unvaccinated child contracted measles abroad, which subsequently spread to other unvaccinated children in his school and community. It's scary to think that event may still be affecting your community even 2 years later.

Looks like I won't be able to visit San Diego any time soon. Bummer, I've heard it's beautiful.

[Juneboarder]

108. That's okay...

we get enough visitors here to keep the economy going :)

[Barack_America]

110. But not from Arizona anymore, I hear.

:rofl:

But I also must admit that I was more concerned with my loss than San Diego's. I guess this is my new life now that I know I have this bizarre immune deficiency. Boo. Heck, maybe after I have the baby and it gets vaccinated we should do a tour of areas with these diseases so I can contract them and see if I can get immunity that way.

[Juneboarder]

114. On a positive note...

Having a baby is such a wonderful time for all in the family. Do enjoy each moment as they are all so precious :)

[Barack_America]

120. Thanks so much!! nt

[alarimer]

54. Blame the pro-infectious disease crowd for this.

These "anti-vaxxers" (I call them pro-infectious disease because that is what they are) are entirely to blame and should have to pay the costs to society of these illnesses. If you do not want to vaccinate your kids, you should have to live isolated from the rest of society.

They are fucking murderers as far as I am concerned.

[Oregone]

57. "They are fucking murderers as far as I am concerned"

More appropriately, baby murderers.

But we shouldn't hope this language inspires a martyr to bomb their anti-vaxxer clinics.

[trackfan]

70. My wife and I had it, starting last summer.

It didn't fully clear up until a couple months ago.

[thelordofhell]

75. Chronic coughing in California

If they didn't say whooping cough I would have attributed it to some bad weed. The last couple of times I've been to L.A. have been like being sealed in a bong. There's more weed smoke than smog in that place now.

[PADemD]

81. Can someone get pertussis more than once?

[Oregone]

82. Not sure. But your childhood vax can wear off in adulthood

So, probably.

[PADemD]

146. I know. Mine did at age 11.

[Barack_America]

88. Absolutely.

So if you last remember being vaccinated as a child, you could ask your doctor about the Tdap vaccine, which would cover your for diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis.

[Juneboarder]

87. Wow... such broad strokes here!

My wife and I chose to not vaccinate our son. My wife spent months researching this, debating with the pediatrician and coming to a conclusion based on studies and discussions with the licensed pediatrician to not vaccinate. How dare anyone affirm that not vaccinating is equivalent to murder. If that is the case, then we could try for murder in so many different examples.

A vaccination is something that doctors have come up with to help PREVENT diseases. When you go and receive vaccinations, you do not receive a contract stating you will not incur that disease you were just vaccinated against. It is a form of prevention. Disease will always be around, and disease will continue to morph so that scientists must continue to come out with new forms of vaccines.

As well, look at the companies that manufacture these vaccinations. Who here trusts that Merck & Co., GlaxoSmithKline, Pfizer, and other pharma companies are, bottom-line, looking out for our best interests? My opinion is that these companies are all a part of the big cabal going down right now. Welcome to the United Corporations of America, my friends... they're here to take our money, screw us, and leave us high and dry.

I have never given much thought to it other than my personal beliefs; however one must keep in mind that they call it the "practice of medicine". I personally don't want to be injected with formaldehyde, aluminum products, blood cells from sheep, fluids from calf skins, chick embryos, and other stuff I don't feel is safe for my body.

As for the whole pro-life/pro-choice argument; does that even pertain to this topic? That debate is about fetus' and has nothing to do with vaccinations. If not vaccinating your child is murder, then wouldn't putting your child in a car be considered murder? What about letting your child cross the street? What about giving folks the CHOICE to decide?

I hope I don't piss too many people off; just wanted to throw my two cents into the equation.

[Barack_America]

91. I wonder if you considered the risk your choice would put others at?

I've always wanted to ask this question.

Was your decision focused entirely on yourself and your family, or did you also consider responsibility to your community and the risks your decision might mean to those in your community who cannot be vaccinated or do not respond to vaccines?

I very much intended for this question to be read as polite and civil, however, I do apologize if there is a bit of an edge to it. You see, I'm a pregnant MMR non-responder who's basically a shut-in these days due to poor vaccination compliance in my community. And I'm a bit cranky about paying the price for other people's choices when I myself don't have one. I hope you understand.

[Juneboarder]

96. I love to discuss...

and definitely no need to apologize, as it was not taken personally :)

I would have to say that we did take that into account, as my wife spent many hours back and forth with the doctor and to this day he has yet to sway her thinking. Every bit of information that my wife researched was said to be true by the doctor and he had no way to prove her wrong. As well, we would take it into consideration again if we were to take our child out of his usual surroundings, and say, go to another country.

If you were to compare my son to any of our friends' children, you would see one healthy boy comparatively speaking. I believe it to be propoganda that vaccines are a must; look at who (or should I say what organization) is pushing the issue. Have you looked at the list of ingredients in these vaccine "cocktails"?

There is a lot more to staying healthy than taking drugs.

[SunnySong]

101. Unfortunately your choice may lead to death of your child and others.

It is similar to not buckling up your children in a car. Honestly as long as you don't get into an accident it is perfectly safe. The reason for the law is that accidents happen. And no matter how safe you drive someone may hit you.

While you would never knowingly expose your child to a disease there simply are too many venues (as noted above undocumented workers in food service) that are out of your control.

It is something we do as a community to promote heath. Not vaccinating is one of the most selfish and foolish choices a parent can make.

[Juneboarder]

104. I really must disagree with you.

I have asserted all of my opinions, none of which you responded to. You feel one way, I feel another. As well, keep in mind that your choice to get behind the wheel of a car, whether strapped in or not, could result in the loss of your life. Crossing the street to say hi to your neighbor could result in the loss of your life. Using your cell phone could result in the loss of your life.

I choose not to live in fear.

[Barack_America]

103. And if the diseases were to return? As they have in several clusters of unvaccinated children?

As most recently evidenced by the San Diego measles outbreak of 2008.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm57e222a1.htm


My main concern regarding the decision not to vaccinate is that you are counting on others to take a risk that you yourself are unwilling to take. I'm very glad that your son is healthy, but I'm inclined to give as much credit for that to the parents of children in your community who decided to vaccinate their children as I am to you and your wife. For if they had also decided their risk was also too great and made the same decision you made, the chance of your son having had contracted a potentially disabling childhood disease, such as polio, would be much increased. Perhaps because of the still relatively high vaccination rates nationwide, the luxury* of a choice still exists. But I wonder how much longer that luxury will last, and what that will mean for those of us like myself who have no choice in the matter?

*assuming that parents would almost exclusively elect to take on the perceived risks of vaccination over the risk of things like paralysis and death than come with formerly common childhood diseases.

[Juneboarder]

107. Assuming vaccination prevents paralysis and death

is surely a talking point of the political figures and pharmaceutical companies. Why not trust everything else they tell us as truth?

[Barack_America]

111. Just out of honest curiosity, how else do you explain the near eradication of these diseases...

....since vaccines were implemented?

Or are your issues more with the new vaccines than the vaccines of old?

[Juneboarder]

113. Near eradication... key phrase

I just don't believe in vaccinations. I feel corporations are the ones pushing them, and their agenda is not my optimum health. It's more like, "here take these drugs. It will cause you heart disease and other complications down the road, but don't worry because we have other drugs for you to take when you get to that point..."

[Barack_America]

115. Okay, but why did they decrease after vaccines were invented?

I'm just trying to get a sense for what you think caused the decline. If it wasn't vaccines, what was it?

[Juneboarder]

117. Healthy lifestyles and nutrittion?

More studies on what is good and bad for a person?

The fact that doctors switched from smoking is good to smoking is bad?

[Heywood J]

123. Heh. That subject line just made me laugh (in a civil way)

What did it was the phrase "healthy lifestyles and nutrition" combined with the pervasiveness of fat-dripping fast food, junk ingredients and filler on store shelves, and the overall decline in exercise and activity in the last thirty years. They don't call it the obesity epidemic for nothing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm fond of trying to eat better and exercise. I just don't think that most of the country lives that way in any meaningful fashion.

[Juneboarder]

163. No, I'm not claiming to be an expert...

Someone asked me what my opinion was and that is why I put question marks at the end... it was a question, not a statement. :)

[Warren DeMontague]

126. You are suggesting, here, that Polio went away on its own? B/c of "healthy lifestyles"???

That it had nothing to do with vaccines, that vaccination is part of a "conspiracy" foisted on us by a "cabal"?

I'm old enough to have an aunt with Post-Polio Syndrome. I think your argument, if there is one, is completely friggin INSANE.

[trotsky]

135. We are a victim of our own success.

People today are SO FAR REMOVED from the deadly effects of all those long-feared diseases, they have absolutely no clue. And worse, fancy themselves "experts" because they researched a bunch of articles at Google U. Oh and some doctors were wrong once, therefore they are wrong about anything I decide I'm right about.

The logic is not strong with them. Yes, they will bring disease, injury, and death, and their ignorance is worn as a badge of pride while doing so. My family and I are fully vaccinated, I fear not so much for us but for all the innocent people who for quite legitimate reasons cannot get vaccinated. They depend on us - and the anti-vaxers don't give a flying fuck.

[Juneboarder]

164. I'm not trying to argue anything other than what I believe.

I don't believe in vaccines. My last post was questions, not statements.

[Warren DeMontague]

183. Yes, well, "not believing in" vaccines is like not believing in gravity.

They work.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

186. Do you understand that it's not about what you believe?

It's more about what the science tells us. Because you "don't believe" in vaccines that doesn't mean that they aren't effective. I know that you truly feel that vaccines aren't right for everyone, and that you think you have the right to make the choice NOT to vaccinate your child. Unfortunately, that puts your child at risk and puts other people at risk. Vaccines are meant to be prophylactic - that is, they're a preventative. Would you have sex with something that is HIV positive, and not wear a condom? The same idea applies to vaccinations.

I don't agree that you're guilty of child abuse or neglect, but I do think that you are creating the possibility that your actions could cause harm or death to another person. That's not hyperbole, that's fact.

[Withywindle]

133. What? That doesn't make any sense at all.

Smoking can cause a lot of nasty things, but polio and smallpox aren't among them.

I bet the average American eats a LESS healthy diet now than 100 years ago - more processed chemical crap, farther away from farm production.

[Juneboarder]

165. I agree with you there...

the diet has taken a dive in the last 100 years. I'm not sure how to explain the decrease in deaths, but I also still don't agree with vaccines. It's my personal choice not to put that stuff in my body, and we're all about pro-choice, right?

[SunnySong]

151. Actually reducing smoking doesn't reduce smoking related diseases,.

Vaccines do eliminate the spread of deadly and crippling diseases. From what you are posting above I'm starting to think your views are not reality based. Perhaps someone else should be medically supervising your children.

[Juneboarder]

169. Thank you for your insight here

However, my child is perfectly safe. You know nothing of me, so no need to throw out a personal bash there buddy.

[DatManFromNawlins]

172. Your child is perfectly safe until he encounters a child with a communicable disease

[Juneboarder]

173. And even then, he will still has the potential to remain safe and healthy.

Vaccines are no guarantee to a perfect bill of health.

[DatManFromNawlins]

180. Of course they aren't

What they ARE is protection against certain diseases. The fact that your child has not contracted any of these diseases has more to do with the vaccination of his playmates than anything you've personally done. And if he SHOULD contract such a disease, then you should go get your wife and stand there looking in the mirror, because you'll have only yourselves to blame.

Your argument thus far makes about as much sense as someone promoting a bacon and sausage diet because that's what their grandfather ate. Anecdotes are not evidence.

[Juneboarder]

182. My wife breast fed our child for a year...

his antibodies are very strong, and his doctor is most impressed. Your argument doesn't sway me, as my argument doesn't sway you. The one difference is that you're trying to change my thinking, while I was just offering my two cents without trying to change anyone on the board here.

[depakid]

134. That's child neglect- no two ways about it

[PBS Poll-435]

139. Completely Agree

:thumbsup:

[Juneboarder]

166. I totally disagree, sorry. nt

[frustrated_lefty]

159. The choice argument sucks.

It's like saying your kid can get Chlamydia and screw everyone he wants, because, after all, it's their choice. Individual infections create pandemics.

There is one very true statement you made, in essence. Vaccines are something scientists have developed to prevent disease. How, exactly, is this a bad thing?

[Juneboarder]

167. Nothing other than it is preventetive and not guaranteed.

Why put that stuff in your body? I don't trust the CDC or the pharma companies that push the drugs, so why trust that the drug will benefit my body. They do not have MY best interests in mind; just their bottom line.

[trotsky]

185. Aspirin isn't guaranteed.

People have died from taking aspirin. Do you take aspirin? By your logic, you shouldn't.

And I thought preventative medicine was a GOOD thing? Guess it's easier to just suffer through the measles and oops, a little bout with encephalitis, sorry about becoming deaf or brain damaged. Well at least you didn't inject ANTIFREEZE (an anti-vax lie, by the way) in your body, huh?

[Juneboarder]

187. I rarely take aspirin... maybe 2-3 times a year?

I never said Antifreeze was in vaccines; but there are aluminum products, chick embryos, formaldehyde and other nasty items in vaccines that I would NEVER consider putting in my body.

I don't assume everyone that I, or my family, come in contact with has every contractable disease that is out there. This is why I don't feel I need the preventetive measures. IF I were to travel abroad, let's say, then yes I would consider the proper vaccines for the area I am travelling to; but until that day, I remain un-vaccinated.

[trotsky]

188. No there aren't "aluminum products."

Many viruses are cultured in chick embryos, yes, to weaken them so when we are exposed to them in a vaccine they aren't nearly as virulent. Very careful steps are taken to purify the vaccine but yeah I suppose a molecule or two might slip thru. I assume that since you are afraid of chick embryos you don't eat chicken either?

Formaldehyde is similarly removed, however did you also know that your very own body makes formaldehyde as a waste product? Yup, and your body can also sweep that right away. So while you might think you'd NEVER consider putting it in your body, YOUR BODY ALREADY DOES. MUAH HA HA HA HA.

I don't assume everyone that I, or my family, come in contact with has every contractable disease that is out there.

Oh sweet irony. You do realize you have the rest of us who vaccinate to thank for that, right?

Plus you're only one short plane ride away from being exposed to just about anything. Good luck.

[Juneboarder]

190. Thanks but I don't need your luck.

I don't live in fear.

[trotsky]

191. No, you don't have to live in fear.

Thanks to the rest of us who, you know, actually give a flying fuck about everyone else in society.

[kestrel91316]

170. Triumph of the anti-vaxers.........I think I got whooping cough several years

ago - WORST, most horrible, lingering cough I have ever had. I think I cracked a rib from it, because it hurt like hell there for months and months, and ever since that section of rib has had a big knot on it.

[Name removed]

176. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Greyhound]

177. Sounds like a jobs for our corporations...

[LaurenG]

189. We have had quite a few cases here too-it started last year

We updated vaccinations on staff who wanted it.