my pet peeve: homophobia and why its all our fault anyway.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

everytime i see someone who is homophobic invariably someone else accuses them of being a closeted homosexual. i think this internalized homophobia thing is vastly over marketed.

there are plenty of virulent obsessive racists (i believe they call themselves racialists) who are white and have no black ancestry.

the idea that homophobes are homophobic only because of internalized homophobia, is just another way of blaming us for our own oppression.

yes, there are some racists who are not a 'pure aryan race' and some homophobes who are closeted gays, but people can be hateful for many other reasons.

i am not calling out anyone in this forum ,but i think we should be aware that this logic eventually ends up blaming us for our own problems and absolves society for creating a hostile situation for gay children/teens and adults.

(i am using gay to include all GLBT'ers, sorry about that. also apologize for bad grammar, super busy at work :) )

[LoZoccolo]

1. I think a key part of that theory, though, is that everyone is a little bit gay. n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

2. so everyone hates a little bit of themselves?

i am confused

[LoZoccolo]

4. I'll try to explain it quickly because I'm at work, sorry if I do a poor job.

But it's basically like this...not all GLBT people are homophobic, but you do acknowledge that some people lash out at others due to the fear of their own homosexuality. If almost everyone is a little bit gay, then the potential for homophobia exists in almost everyone, not just those who identify as primarily gay.

I actually agree with you that self-loathing isn't the only reason people are anti-gay; I'm just saying that I don't think that the self-loathing theory is really a way to blame a certain minority of people for their own oppression because I wouldn't be surprised if we found out that like 95% of all people have some homosexual feelings.

[dmallind]

3. You are correct on the whole BUT

There are both anecdotal examples and psychologically valid theory that would indicate that, while no doubt most homophobes are simply knuckle dragging straight folks, there is a likelihood that a greater ratio of homophobes have some homosexual leanings than those people who have no great bias against gays. In other words most of them are mostly straight, but a higher percentage of them are closeted than the percentage of non-biased folks who are closeted.

I mean think of it this way - they have been indoctrinated into thinking beigng gay is filthy and perverted and wrong all their lives. In many cases their religious identity demands this opinion, and yet they find themseleves attracted to the same gender. It's bound to cause the very same self-loathing you want to avoid in the "out" gay community isn't it? To know that you can't help doing or feeling something you are supposed to believe is vile. What more natural response could there be than to convince yourself it's even much MORE vile than you thought it should be - to "talk yourself out of it"? How many drinkers swear that booze is evil and they'll give it up tomorrow? Different scenarios and different causes, but same coping mechanism and same self-loathing.

I'm pretty much convinced that few people indeed are completely straight or completely gay, and that we almost all have some attraction both ways. I'm not saying that being 50/50 bi is the mean value - not all distributions are statistically normal - but that I think a majority have some sexual attraction to their own gender, and more to the opposite gender, but that there are people everywhere on the spectrum. Especially for men, where "gayness" has the added negativity as being perceived as weak and cowardly and all the things men aren't "supposed" to be (clearly these folks have never been to a mostly gay gym), it's very much a survival mechanism to push that down and suppress it and come to "hate" that part of yourself, which quite naturally leads you to hate others who exhibit that behavior,

On the other hand if you are lucky enough to avoid or escape such a mindset and upbringing, and have no problem at all with homosexuality, there would be no reason to hate yourself for having homosexual feelings, and no reason to hide them if you do.

[truedelphi]

7. Didn't a study come out that was purportedly done according to

Scientific principles? The study had allegedly straight people who were tolerant of gays looking a gay porno, and allegedly straight people who were hateful towards gays looking at gay porno. Electrodes were connected in such a fashion as to monitor the brain waves.

And those who were hateful of gays but claimed they were straight had the portions of their brains wherein sexual excitation is contained light up like fireworks.

The study got a lot of press at the time in the Mainstream media.

I should also point out, the study didn't say that EVERYONE who hates gays and claims to be straight is a closeted homosexual, but a much, much larger percentage of them than the tolerant straights were aroused by the gay porno.

[dmallind]

9. I vaguely remember that yes

Not well enough to use it in any way in a debate, but it certainly would not surprise me if it were exactly as you described. If you don't care about being gay one way or the other why would you lie and say you are straight? If you hate the idea of homosexuality you're going to BS on that question, and likely lash out at those who are more comfortable and open than you are letting yourself be.

[hulklogan]

30. The study only involved a handful of self-selected college students

Basing an entire theory of internalized homophobia on a handful of horny college guys is foolish at best.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

31. i think this study should be done on middle aged men to have ecological validity

because young men in college, still have enough time to come out.

:hi:

[ThomCat]

5. I'm sure you'll get a lot of rationalizatins

why it's not really blaming GLBT people, but I agree with you. The knee-jerk reaction from straight people seems to be "That homophobe isn't one of us. S/He must be one of you."

I think it's a similar situation to when someone who is Christian is an obvious bigot. All the other Christians rush to rationalize how that person isn't "really" a christian. "He's not one of us." Straight people are doing the exact same thing. They're protesting their innocense in a desperate effort to avoid responsibility.

By refusing to take responsibility for what members of their group are doing they can insist that their group is really part of the solution, and therefore they're really "the good guys."

[La Lioness Priyanka]

6. exactly.

as i often say on this forum, their are hundreds of ways to rationalize bigotry, doesnt make it any less bigoted.

also :loveya: :hug:

[dmallind]

11. Interesting take. Not sure I buy it,, but interesting.

I don't think this is a "no true Scotsman" parallel like religion is though. After all, it's not as if being homophobic is seen as particularly egregious behavior by all but the most liberal of straight people sadly (and in the celebrity group, where they fear the backlash)- and I think in a lot of cases people would WANT to identify with homophobia rather than want to disassociate themselves from it. Certainly your average bar-going blue collar crowd doesn't exactly get offended by gay jokes etc and I say this as a guy who spends a fair amount of time in blue collar bars. There is of course a continuity of homophobia and I'm not saying people want to associate themselves with the Phelpses of the world. Few however seem to feel the need to disassociate themselves from the groups who use "gay" as a generic insult or make fun of men with "effeminate" voices etc.

[Touchdown]

8. You should put this in GD.

This very thing happens in GD every time a Repug gets caught doing something. It is so tiresome.

Sometimes bigotry is just plain unexplainable bigotry. It's not rocket science.

K&R :hug:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

10. everytime there is an issue of sexuality, gender or race in GD

i get disappointed about my fellow liberals.

this is why i posted it here :hug:

[IndianaJones]

12. I feel vindicated by the liberals. It is refreshing. nt.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

13. what do you mean?

[IndianaJones]

14. as a moderate, when I read threads regarding minority issues...

it makes me happy to be a moderate.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

15. why?

on edit: how do you know moderates are not saying those things and the liberals are?

[IndianaJones]

16. because there are very few that admit to being moderates...

and as one of those few, I am familiar with the posters I see in some of these threads.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

17. ahh i see, well i consider myself a liberal.

i find the sheer ignorance about race issues and gender/sexuality issue to be mind numbing.

[Tyo]

18. this is totally unscientific and subjective....

but it has been my experience that the guys I know who come off to me as being the most totally straight also seem to be the ones who have the fewest hangups regarding gays.

[closeupready]

19. The psychological underpinnings of what causes homophobia is complex

probably. There are probably thousands of reasons why some people are homophobic - is it always internalized homophobia? No, of course not. But what is being said by many of those who do make that claim, I think, is something like this: in undeniably homophobic American culture, the only men who have the luxury of being tolerant of gays are those who are secure in their sexuality, and only a straight man and an openly gay man can be secure in their sexualities, and so a man who is intolerant must belong to another category - a closeted gay man who is homophobic because of internalized homophobia. I think this is true in a lot of cases, but there is more to it than that, in many others.

[Smarmie Doofus]

20. You are correct. The thing is that homosexual homophobe...

.....stands OUT because of the irony involved. I think it's actually pretty rare and by far the more serious ( and much more common) phenomenom is the know-nothing heterosexual homophobe.

Still... people like to speculate on this kind of thing. It's a fascinating spectacle when it does occur. And there are lots of historical precedents. European anti-Semites of Jewish ancestry, for example. Some of the more fantical Inquisitors were conversos... or progeny of conversos; probably driven in large part by a desperate desire to fit in.

Still, Christianity and Christians created and sustained persecution of Jews down thru the ages ; not ex-Jews.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

21. exactly.

[galledgoblin]

22. depends on the person

I believe there is a bisexual spectrum, from 10% of the population for all intents and purposes completely gay, to 80% bisexual to varying degrees, to 10% completely straight.

some homophobes/homomisics have convinced themselves that they would have to "choose" to be gay because they have experienced homosexual attractions but "chose" not to peruse it.

others are just jackasses.

[terrya]

23. Recommended. I hope this makes it to the Greatest Page.

[tjwmason]

25. Just got its 5th recommendation. nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

27. thanks terrya!

[terrya]

28. You're welcome, lioness!

Your post needs to be read...particularly with some of the crap I'm reading right now about Trent Lott...same ol', same ol' "he's a right wing Republican homophobe, so he must be a closeted homosexual" shite. :puke:

Thanks again! :hi:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

29. i think this is a common misperception in our community as well

i think homophobic homosexuals stand out, however most homophobes are not homosexual. which is why they stand out in memory.

if most homophobes were homosexual, this country has a homosexuality 'epidemic' and iran is the gayest country ever.

[Zuiderelle]

24. I couldn't agree more.

:thumbsup:

[JohnnyLib2]

26. Recommended because

discussion and awareness are part of the long, long struggle. :thumbsup:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

32. maybe i should have posted this in gd

[baby_mouse]

33. Well, why not just repost?

I shall K&R happily.

[lightningandsnow]

34. You bring up a very good point...

All I was trying to say was that people who constantly obsess over gay sex...well it seems a little fishy, doesn't it?

You do bring up a very good point, though.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

35. sorry i really didnt mean to call you out. your comment inspired my thread

but in general, i agree with most things that you say.

you are one of my fav posters. :hi:

[lightningandsnow]

36. Aww thanks!

You're one of my favorite posters too!:pals: