Dear Obama: You're destroying education (Diane Ravitch interview)

[tonysam]

A couple of excerpts rom Salon:

Yet why not create competition if the public schools aren't doing well? What about the mantra that my own school's principal says all the time about standards and test scores, that the "data doesn't lie"?

Has your principal heard of Ponzi schemes? Has he heard of Enron? The data lie all the time. Business lies all the time. It's easy to fudge the numbers. In New York, for instance, the Board of Ed dropped the passing mark for the tests. In 2006 a seventh-grade student needed to get 59.6 percent to be considered proficient. By 2009 the mark dropped to 44 percent. That produced a dramatic increase in "proficiency."

...

You've lived and worked through countless moments of crisis in education. What makes this one different?

Public school has always had critics. But we now have for the first time a movement to eliminate public education. We have never in our history had a strong push to privatize a large piece of the public education system. And when you have it coming from the Oval Office, that's different.

Obama and Arne Duncan have completely aligned themselves with the Jack Welches and Joel Kleins. There's this idea that teachers are the enemy. Everybody has drunk the Kool-Aid, because if you want to keep your job, you walk the walk. It's doing a really good job of stigmatizing public education.

[Orrex]

1. Public education has been under attack and under-funded for decades

And then its critics throw up their hands and say "See? It can't possibly work!"

[tonysam]

2. It's all by design and because of ideology

The really bad thing now is BOTH political parties are pushing this privatization shit.

[Orrex]

4. You know, I've spoken with dozens of teachers about this...

Every last one of them, spanning grades K through 12, hates everything about NCLB and its political brethren.

It would be nice if the powers that be would actually listen to public school teachers instead of to the big-wigs in the private school industry.

[Catshrink]

12. It would be more than nice

it would be responsible.

[truedelphi]

24. Thanks Orrex. Good to know.

The kid is grown up and I rarely speak to any one teaching in public schools.

I know something is very wrong because I have tutored kids from well-to-do families and they can barely do any math by the time they are fourteen or fifteen.

Even back in the eighties, something was wrong. Kids were supposed to do math in the "New Math" way That meant they were not supposed to memorize math tables as it would hurt their precious little brains. That is so wrong I cannot even begin to complain about it.

[polichick]

3. One of the areas in which Obama's corporate leanings really show. nt

[tonysam]

5. And this one is the most destructive of all because it goes to the heart of our democracy.

There is no gray area here. If you're in favor of privatizing public education, you're against democracy.

[stray cat]

6. Was it good a year ago? Something has to be good to be destroyed

[wtmusic]

9. +1

[wtmusic]

7. Re: setting people in competition with each other

"There are two ways to look at the business model: One is, produce or die. But there is plenty in corporate literature that talks about common goals, and what happens when you don't set people in competition with each other. So how about finding solutions for everybody?"

What org competes with the NEA? :shrug:

[Tarheel_Dem]

8. Not to be contrarian, but if the privatized schools are attracting the cream...

of the crop educators, doesn't it make sense that parents would want to give their children the advantage? I know this is a touchy subject among educators, but the solution isn't to just keep throwing money at a problem that seems to be ongoing. Education is not about protecting teacher's jobs. The number one goal should be to prepare our kids to be the best & the brightest.

[wtmusic]

10. According to the NEA

(the largest union in the country) the solution is throwing more money at a problem that seems to be ongoing.

[Tarheel_Dem]

11. I hope I didn't sound like I was union bashing. Both my parents were

union members, and benefited tremendously from that membership. My problem, though, is that some people seem to think that no matter how rotten the results, that a union member's job is protected above all else. I don't have that luxury. I know we'll have many debates about this in the future, but I want whatever's best for the kids.

[wtmusic]

13. Not at all. It was exploitation-bashing.

Labor unions are are very capable of exploitation.

Signed,

A Proud Member of Local 47, American Federation of Musicians

[tonysam]

15. It isn't about being a "union member." This is about KIDS, who have the right

to a stable learning environment.

Besides, "tenure" isn't all what people think it is. Public school "tenure" isn't at ALL like college tenure.

[tonysam]

14. They aren't attracting the "cream of the crop" educators

Who the HELL would work in those pits with no job security and having to work even more hours than they already do? The people who work in those schools are like the ones who take work in private schools--they take them because they can't GET jobs in public schools. There is a massive glut of teachers nationwide.

There are some areas of the country where the school districts "sponsor" charter schools--Washoe County School District in Nevada is one of them--and presumably the teachers have the same pay, etc., but even then there have been problems with those schools.

[Tarheel_Dem]

17. We could probably both cite anecdotes all day. My problem is that..

what's been done up to now hasn't worked. Just visit any urban neighborhood, where young minority teens are hanging out on street corners during school hours. Why are so many kids dropping out? And what do we do to address it? That should be job #1, not protecting teacher's jobs. We can't turn a blind eye to this issue just because we're in favor of unions. That would be tantamount to what's gone on in the Catholic church for decades. This problem needs to be addressed, because in this day & age, you can't just drop out of school and expect to find a good manual labor job anymore.

I don't have all the answers, but I do know that sacrificing a kid's education and future success in life, is not a good trade off for holding on to your job.

[Catshrink]

18. And what can teachers do about that?

What can I do about a kid who chooses to stay home and smoke dope instead of coming to school? I have 150 kids in my classes, most of whom make it to school every day.

Where are the parents of these kids hanging out on the street corners? It is the parents' responsibility to get the child to school in the morning.

The issues you raise are societal issues yet you want to hold those with the least amount of power responsible? Address the issues of poverty and parental neglect, address the issues holistically. I know, it's just so easy to blame teachers and teachers' unions for the problems rather than look at the whole picture.

[MichiganVote]

21. And have you seen charter school administrators lining up to enroll those kids?

How about the parochial school chiefs? Think they are going to show up anytime soon to get these kids in their schools?

Where is the data to show that school teachers are responsible for these drop out's? Where is the data that shows that union membership is responsible for drop out's?

And btw, many of these kids DO have manual jobs. They live in the city and they market street drugs. They make a good living at it and there is minimal risk.

SO what part of 'I don't wanna do History to work at Walmart for peanuts' don't you understand?

[proud2BlibKansan]

22. Arrgh!!! Why is it the school's fault that kids hang out on street corners???

This debate is getting ridiculous. Next the schools will be blamed for the rising cost of groceries :crazy:

[Tarheel_Dem]

23. Come on P2B, I never blamed the schools for kids hanging out on street corners.

Please re-read my post. What I am saying is that the dropout rate is ridiculous. As I said, I don't have the answers. I recognize the societal ills that play into a child's ability to attend school and learn, but what is the government supposed to do that they haven't been doing? Do we arrest the parents? Do we make law enforcement responsible for getting kids to school everyday? How do we begin to fix this problem, and where do we throw the money next?

I don't mean to sound "ridiculous" as we're usually on the same page. But, honestly, I don't know the answer. I just know that the o.p. took a swipe at the administration from a union standpoint, and that doesn't address the underlying issue, which is producing kids who are ready to face the challenges (hopefully) of college, and life in general.

My hat goes off to teachers. There are teachers in my own family. I just know that someone has to fix this, or we're going to produce an entire generation of young minority students, who aren't ready for the world.

[Catshrink]

16. Private and charter school cherry pick their students

leaving those who require more resources behind, e.g. special ed students. If the trend continues, public schools will have only high needs students.

No one in education believes that education is about protecting teachers' jobs. The accountability issue is not about avoiding being evaluated for what we do, rather it is about using an abitrary measurement. The oft used analogy is that of a cancer patient seeing a doctor for the first time. If that patient has a stage I cancer, treatment may very well be effective and the patient can go on to live a full life -- in education, this is the student who arrives at school with adequate nutrition, rest, parental support, and a good attitude toward learning. This student will be successful. The patient who visits the doctor with a Stage IV cancer will not fare as well and neither will a student who arrives in 9th grade and has missed huge chunks of school due to the family moving around, has special needs, has parents who don't give a damn, and who would rather play video games. The doctor is not held responsible for the outcome of the patient with the Stage IV cancer but the teacher is held responsible for the student. Does that make sense?

Obviously, this is an extreme example. But, children enter our classrooms as amalgams of experiences and abilities. In the classroom, we try to treat them as individuals as much as we can given increasing class sizes and demands on our time. But the standardized tests treat the kids all the same as if they are widgets to fit in nice little gift boxes. It doesn't work that way. Kids should be measured on individual progress as well as a class standard.

As for the job protection issue -- you would not believe how irrational parents can be about grades and their child's abilities. I avoid teaching honors classes as much as I can because of this. Imagine! Miss Honor 4.0 Student earns a B in a class! The protests! The challenges! Take it to the school board! Sound extreme? It happens. Confiscate an i-Pod because the student is listening to it in class? Start a rumor and get the teacher fired. Speak up at a board meeting about a proposed change in policy that pisses off a board member or a board member's wife? Fire her! All these things have happened either to me or to colleagues of mine. It's this abitrariness that concerns us. We need to be able to do our jobs without these fears hanging over our shoulders.

Compensation? Yeah, I should be paid well. Two masters degrees, 8 years of experience, 14 hour non-stop days. Teaching in exhausting - you are always "on." If you haven't done the job, you don't understand that.

[Tarheel_Dem]

19. I applaud you. And I agree with much of your assessment, especially about the parents.

Like I said, I don't know the answer, but what we've been doing clearly hasn't worked. I don't think there will ever be across the board agreement on what we do to fix our failing public schools, but I'm for any approach that puts the kids first, and gets quantifiable results.

[Catshrink]

20. What are "quantifiable results?"

Some standardized test written and scored secretely? Drop-out rates? How are drop-out rates determined? Numbers are so fudgable, kids are not. I don't know the answer either, but be aware that there is no holy grail of quantifying educational outcomes.

[wtmusic]

25. A big part of the problem

As School Exit Tests Prove Tough, States Ease Standards

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/12/education/12exit.html

[Fire1]

26. Well stated! You got straight to the heart of it. n/t

[wtmusic]

27. "No one in education believes that education is about protecting teachers' jobs."

Actually, several people in education who contribute to this forum do.

In terms of your doctor analogy, a teacher who tells a suicidal student to kill himself is guilty of malpractice (a doctor would lose his license for an equivalent infraction).

But I'm told the teacher has just made a "stupid remark". :silly:

[Catshrink]

28. You are wrong.

And you need to let the suicide thing go.

[wtmusic]

29. I'm curious why you think I should "let it go".

Does it make you uncomfortable? Shall we sweep it under the rug, or admit that some teachers are not qualified and should be fired?

This is part of the reason why CA education is ranked 47th.

[Catshrink]

30. Okay...

I fully admit that some teachers should not be teaching just like some doctors shouldn't be practicing medicine.