Question about prayer in public meetings

[AbbyR]

I cover city council meetings and quorum court meetings (among others) for a newspaper. Each meeting begins with the pledge to the flag and a (Christian) prayer, led by either a member of the group or by a local minister, always Christian (there are no local options.)

About six months ago, I started standing politely for the pledge, but not putting my hand over my heart or reciting it. I just don't think it's right any more to pledge to a symbol. Now I'm wondering about the prayer. I'm not sure it's legal, and even though I am a Christian, I have stopped bowing my head - I do stand, but I won't pray in a public meeting. Seems wrong.

Any thoughts? Does anyone ever object to this sort of thing? Could it possibly be legal? I live and work in the south, and the only answer I've ever gotten when I question such things is "They do it in Congress."

Just wondering.

[Fredda Weinberg]

1. I used to stay seated

at City Council meetings. No one ever complained.

[MADem]

2. Since you've disabled your profile, we can't see what state you are from

If you're living in Afghanistan, well, prayer is mandatory there!

I'll bet if you gripe, you can make an issue out of it.

[AbbyR]

4. I don't think I disabled my profile

If I did, it was an accident. I'll go look at it and see. Why would anyone disable his or her profile.
Anyway, I'm from Arkansas. Now, off to fix the profile, if it needs fixing.


OK, I fixed it. Thanks for letting me know.

[MADem]

10. Ok, Arkansas!!!

I found this bit about public school "coercive" prayer, dating from 04: http://blog.au.org/2004/08/appeals_court_s.html

The federal courts continue to issue rulings against officially sponsored prayers in the public schools.

Earlier this week, the 8th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, whose jurisdiction covers the Dakotas, Nebraska, Minnesota, Iowa, Missouri and Arkansas, concluded that prayers held at mandatory public school staff meetings violate the First Amendment principle of church-state separation....

Ya know, it might save you time, and you can get to the heart of the question, if you contact the Americans United for Separation of Church and State directly. They are pretty responsive to emails, [email protected] <[email protected]> and would surely take your call. It looks like they've been pretty busy in your state!!
http://www.google.com/u/americansunited?q=Arkansas

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

16. Hello from Newton County Arkansas

I knew where you were from when you said quorum court. There might be other states that have them, too, but not where I've lived before.

[Proud_Democratt]

3. Intentional or not...it's indoctrination.

IMO..it is arrogantly assuming that "all that are present" are Christians.
Why not use a subject or topic like "we're all Americans" or "we Americans need to unite against.......".

[Proud_Democratt]

5. What happened to.....

"a moment in silence"???????

[AbbyR]

7. 'Moments of silence'

The folks sometimes use them to mark a death of a local figure, like, "Let's have a moment of silence for our dear friend, Joe Smith, and his family."

[Bill McBlueState]

6. sure seems unconstitutional to me

That looks to me like a government establishment of religion, which is unconstitutional. But I think the courts allow Congress to get away with this if the references to god are so generic as to be ceremonial and not an endorsement of any particular religion. But I bet the prayers in your city aren't generic that way.

In any case, I think the courts' handling of this is weasly, since such a religiously neutral prayer isn't possible. Especially since the very concept of prayer is not found in all religions, and certainly not among the non-religious.

And here's the thing that traditional Christians should be concerned about: Even if a religiously neutral prayer were possible, does such a prayer mean anything? Or is it a mockery of the concept of prayer? In short, inserting displays of religiosity into government cheapens both religion AND government.

[classof56]

8. My thinking, for what it's worth, is this:

It's at most a couple of minutes out of your life and when it's made an issue, it seems to give rise to the "we Christians are so persecuted" response and gets all blown out of proportion. As I understand it, Jehovah's Witnesses and others do not say the Pledge of Allegiance, and so not saying the pledge is your prerogative. Could be a lot of reasons for declining to do so. I say, follow your heart and follow your conscience. The thing about prayer is, it doesn't have to be public or even said out loud for God to hear and acknowledge. At least, that's the way I as a believer have always understood it.

Blessings.

Tired Old Cynic

[MADem]

11. Yeah, but what if "we Christians" happen to be Jews or Hindus?

Ya can't always tell a book by its cover. And I should think it's rather UN-Christian to make ANY one of your number, who have come together for the good of the community, feel excluded or different or separate.

Churches are for praying. And go ahead and do it at home, in your car, while you are pushing your damn shopping cart, I don't care. Just don't force me to participate in it on TAXPAYER time, even if it is a "few minutes." You give some people an inch, they'll take a mile. It's not a flimsy curtain between church and state, it's a WALL.

As it should be.

[Orrex]

17. I believe that you are sincere, but...

In my experience this kind of official public prayer often amounts to a form of strongarming. Even if individual participants are honestly expressing their devotion, a group chanting en masse sends a powerful signal to anyone not chanting just as loudly. That message is: we are the group, and the rest of you are spectators.

If anyone doubts this, I invite you to interrupt the next prayer offered at a similar public function. Or, after the prayer is finished, voice your opinion that maybe just maybe the prayer is out of place. If you're not forcibly removed from the premises, you'll get the cold shoulder of a lifetime.

I accept that this attitude is not consciously nor deliberately held by the vast majority of those who pray at these functions, but it doesn't really matter. If you've ever stumbled onto a scene where you were really out of place and felt wildly uncomfortable (if not actively unwelcome) as a result, you know what I mean. That's fine if you walk into a stereotypical biker bar in your business suit in order to use the bathroom--you'll be out in a minute anyway. But when the scene in question represents your Constitutionally-granted right to access your government, any attempt to exclude via prayer or similar group-effort (deliberate or not) must be combatted.

"But we pray in order to welcome and include people and to share in our community," the prayer-sayers will say. Nonsense. It's an attempt to exclude, either via deliberate effort or else via culpably insensitive group-think.

:rant:

[lslaux]

9. Unconstitutional!

Any public meeting, concerning public business funded by taxes, must abide by the Constitution. This applies to governments at any level: state, county, city or school boards. A group representing the government must not indicate by its actions, for example praying, that it has a preference for one religion over another or for religion over non-religion. In the case you described, many public meetings have been forced to remove public praying from the agenda based on violations of first amendment statutes. Have an ACLU representative attend a meeting with you and tell you what they think. In many cases, just the threat of a lawsuit will make the group terminate praying at their meetings. Also look online at "Americans United for Separation of Church and State", a first amendment protection non-profit, for advice on what to do. They have been a party to many winning law suits.

[lindisfarne]

12. The solution is a court case challenging these prayers in public

government meetings.

[Rabrrrrrr]

13. Kudos to you for not saying the pledge! And shame on the council

for beginning every meeting with a Christian prayer. BOOOOOOOO!

They should not be praying at all.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

14. Always a smart*ass reply

If you're ever questioned as to why you don't participate in pledge/prayer:

"Well, I believe in the 10 commandments and it clearly states that I shouldn't worship idols and have other gods before God. Therefore, pledging to the flag is against my religion.

And since I'm in a roomful of people who pretend to be good Christians but evidently are false prophets, I choose not to enter into mandatory prayer with the group".

It'll confuse them and they'll walk away.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

15. Jehovah's Witnesses have never said the pledge

as they say that is worshipping a graven image. When I am at a group setting where a Christian prayer is uttered, I leave out the part "in Jesus' name". If the Lord's prayer is recited, I say it in Aramaic. And no, I don't think it is wrong to feel uncomfortable in such situations.