Does Heaven exist or is it only a denial of the finality of death?

[Erika]

My partner of 25 years and I were talking about this subject. There seems to be some kind of craze going on now where something like 85% of people believe in Christ.

Where I believe that Christ in His humility and love was a person to respect, admire, and follow, I have a hard time in the belief of Heaven.

Why, because the spirit of humanity does not follow Christian values of humility, sacrifice, and caring for your fellow beings.

Today's world makes corporate greed, extreme wealth, and war on innocent countries and their people Godly. To me, spending eternity with that type of people, is a definition of Hell.

I believe it is far easier to tell ourselves that our earthly sins will be forgiven and we will spend everlasting life in Heaven, than to acknowledge self accountability and responsibility and that our duty is to make life better here now.

I am sick of the right wingers boycotting commercial ventures for saying Happy Holidays, while they allow Santa and commercialism to be the main message of their movement.

Christmas time is the season for getting in touch with your spiritual side, at least for us. Sorry if this is a rant.

[buddysmellgood]

1. Nice rant. I'll let you know, but not as soon as I can.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

2. I guess I'm crazed, 'cause Heaven is where I'm going.

I'll send you a postcard when I get there.

[Spinzonner]

6. What's the zip code ?

[shenmue]

3. Denial

Where is it? How can people see, hear or do anything after death, without bodies? It doesn't make any sense.

[Erika]

9. Are 85% of us intimidated in today's political environment to

say we are Christians? Do these same people hope Heaven is real and death is not final? How do they reconcile all the poor in the world and all the extremely wealthy?

Do they just wish to say that I chose to allow others to die so I could have a yacht or expensive jewelry. How do some formulate their reason for going to Heaven under these circumstances?

Do they think Christ who taught forgiveness, peace, and caring of their brothers will simply forgive them? Insane.

[FreedomAngel82]

13. Jesus taught

to give to the poor and not lie your treasures on Earth but in Heaven instead. Thus us having tons of money etc. doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to take care of ourselves but to help others too. That money isn't everything in life. Check out Matthew chapter six where it talks about giving and some other stuff as well including praying.

[Missy Vixen]

24. This is one of my big questions, too

>Do they think Christ who taught forgiveness, peace, and caring of their brothers will simply forgive them?<

I seem to remember the following: "What you did to the least of these, you did to Me."

I also just found this quote:

"I cannot believe in a God who metes out hurt for hurt, pain for pain, torture for torture. Nor do I believe that God invests human representatives with such power to torture and kill. The paths of history are stained with the blood of those who have fallen victim to "God's Avengers." Kings, popes, military generals, and heads of state have killed, claiming God's authority and God's blessing. I do not believe in such a God." -- Sister Helen Prejean

Julie

[Erika]

32. God did not instill men with the instinct to kill

Especially those who are innocents. That is not God's work.

It comes back to Christianity and Heaven. How could God reward war profiteers with the salvation of Heaven?

How can we think of them as Godly? I can't. or can I think of sharing eternity with them.

[mcctatas]

4. The only part of my Catholic upbringing that I truly held on to was that

doing good works on earth is a necessity for getting into heaven (unless you bought a shitload of papal indulgences), anyway, I don't know if there is a heaven, but I sure as hell hope that if there is you CANNOT get in just because you spout off at the mouth about your faith! I would like to think that God would rather have a non-believer who gave to the homeless in heaven, than a fundie who spent thier days sending out emails about the "War on Christmas". And alas, you're rant has spawned another;)

[Erika]

16. Thanks. There is no better season to bring these questions

up. Happy Holidays vs. Merry Xmas is the ultimate in the silly and frivolity.

I admired Art Buchwold extremely. He said he would die an anthiest with pride.

[FreedomAngel82]

17. And there is a phrase

from Jesus that is: it's easier for a camel to get through an eye of the needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven.

[wuushew]

5. its really irrelevant in any case

human cognition and memory are incompatible with the experience of salvation or damnation over the course of an infinite span of time.


How could any one say I was a human during the 21st century and remember who they were after several million or billion years? Any being capable of remembering infinite events over infinite time would no longer resemble anything remotely human and thus still be denied an afterlife from a human perspective.

[Erika]

19. Yeah, poker hands are hard to play also n/t

[C_U_L8R]

7. You die

and it's over
lights out
finito
dead

wishing that isn't so is just lalalala crazytalk...
(I believe and wish for lots of things.. it doesn't make em so)
we all do it... it's just human denial.. no one wants to
end up eaten by worms. But hey.... that IS what happens

and there is absolutely no proof otherwise... sorry

[babylonsister]

15. One word... cremation.Worms scare me. nt

[Erika]

18. Yes, we will both be cremated.

Lying in a dark box during winter and summer is nothing I want. I will have my ashes spread in our local mountains. A much faster return to nature.

[babylonsister]

27. I will go into the sea. Sounds nice to me. nt

[neoblues]

55. But wouldn't spreading the ashes

But wouldn't spreading the ashes be adding additional Carbon to the environment and thereby add to Global Warming?

Well, an Entrepreneur/Inventor would respond to your concerns about laying about in a dark box through the seasons in the following way: the development of lighted caskets equipped with a small climate control system capable of managing the temperature and humidity. That in itself would involve development of a compact long term power source (perhaps an atomic powered micro-power plant). Also, a "forever light bulb" (at least a bulb with scores of individual LED lamps such that when one burns out, the next comes on). However, when ambling along this line of thought, it occurs that some provision needs to be made to deal with the terrible boredom and claustrophobia involved in spending so much time in a sealed casket. The best answer would seem to be installing a cable/satellite TV with optional XM radio access. But what about internet access for the dead? It must be highly annoying for some dead bloggers not be be able to share their now deceased thoughts with the living in cyberspace... We can equip the system with a compact computer with one of those split keyboards in two pieces, one for each hand with a trac-mouseball built into one side (after all, it would be difficult to raise your dead hands up to use a standard keyboard/mouse). Anyway, thank Heavens for the new small, long lasting LCD displays (otherwise, the form-factor of the casket would have to be changed to allow for the TV tube). At least given the cramped quarters we wouldn't need to provide a remote (one designed with an eternal power source/battery--or require a wired charger connected to the casket's main power supply). Perhap too, for those dead people who want a casket with a view, we might be able to provide a skylight/periscope--which would have the added benefit of providing natural lighting! Other options might include Tempurpedic casket mattresses and maybe an electric massage pad option. Anyway, the thing is, who needs Heaven when one has cable...

In case you haven't guessed, it's this person's opinion that Heaven... is a handy fairy tale for children, just like Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.

[freestyle]

53. Yes, cremation and ocean scattering for me.

The thought of decay, and worse, of taking up space for years and years, simply repulses me. I also don't relish the prospect of lots of people walking by looking at my dead body and then putting fake flowers over me for years after that. The whole process just turns me off. I'll have a bench placed or a tree planted if people need someplace to visit.

[Psephos]

8. Have you ever seen a ghost?

I used to think the afterlife was a fairy story until the first time I saw a ghost (it has happened more than once).

Despite my rational/scientific mindset, afterwards I found it impossible to square what I saw and heard with skeptical beliefs about a world beyond this one.

"The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible."
- Oscar Wilde

jmho

Peace.

[FreedomAngel82]

20. I've seen plenty of ghosts

I used to help spirits cross over all the time and have seen lots of spirits myself and heard them and felt them. I used to not be sure about that but I've started a few years ago being more involved. I've also had some past life flashes etc.

[babylonsister]

10. The way I was raised was my 'religion'. I don't

have one that I 'worship'.
I was brought up to believe in 'do unto others'.
I think if you have it in your heart to be nice, that's the way you should be. The rest will follow.
My mom died 15 years ago, and told my dad she'd rattle his ice. It hasn't happened. So
I don't think so much that there's an afterlife.
That doesn't mean I will turn into a tyrant. Do unto others is a nice mantra to live by,

[FreedomAngel82]

11. I'm tired of it too

This liberal Christian is tired of it too. I do believe in heaven. I believe it's the place you go when your body dies. It's your personal paradise and you're with God and Christ and other loved ones etc. I've had an OBE once and that helped me to increase my faith in an afterlife. I think religion in general is nice to make people better (only when it's not like the rightwing fascists fundies) in their personal lives and it's a peace of mind for what happens with the afterlife. Of course that goes if you're a believer.

[EST]

12. Not an either-or question, unfortunately.

[bemildred]

14. I don't believe in the tooth fairy or the easter bunny either.

Being dead is no problem. You were dead for billions of years, then you popped up a few years back, for a few years, and then you will be dead again, for billions of years. Or maybe not. Maybe you get to pop up again. It happened once, it can happen again. But anyway, there is no problem, so you don't need to explain it or worry about it.

[greyl]

21. "the spirit of humanity does not follow Christian values" ?

I find that to be a terribly misguided view, on a couple levels.
Why demonize all of humanity for the faults of one culture?

One of the main tenets of Christianity is that God botched the job when it came to making humans, and that we are, unlike any other creature on the planet, in dire need of salvation. I don't think so.

[Erika]

29. I remember a 7th Day Adventist meeting in the 70's

in which they preached that we had so messed up the earth that God would not let us contaminate the rest of the planets. Good way to spend a Saturday.

[greyl]

44. A more hopeful message to you may be

that the culture that has "so messed up the earth" doesn't represent all of humanity.
"The gods" didn't screw up when they made humanity, it's only one culture that is screwing up.
It's not God's fault, it's not the fault of humanity; it's the fault of one young civilizational experiment. As we are participants in that experiment, the "problem" is entirely in our hands to solve.
That sounds like good news to me. :)

[sam sarrha]

22. i think a lot of people are afraid 'Not' to believe in Christ.. there are

alternatives...

i suffer from PTSD from childhood religious extremist torture.

when i discovered Buddhism, i finally realized that Jesus having lived at the crossroads of the Silk Road had to have run into Buddhism.. where else could a jew in the days where they stoned to death their family and friends for ridiculous sub misitmeaners..??

in Buddhism there is no heaven, the goal is to free yourself and all others from the cycle of birth, suffering, old age, sickness, death and karmic rebirth. see the Wheel of Life at http://www.buddhanet.net

heaven is right up there with Santa, and the Easter Bunny.. but i did have a rabbit that screwed the chickens.. so there might be something to that story..

the gods live in their own realm of Samsara.. and suffer the cycle of karma and rebirth also, if only follows that if they cant get themselves out of Samsara they cant help us either.

[Erika]

25. The Dali Lama can teach us much as for living in the now n/t

[greyl]

28. How can you think Nirvana is superior to Heaven?

Buddhism is more like Christianity, than unlike. They are both essentially salvationist religions which view humans as divinely flawed creatures.
There are alternatives. ;)

[Erika]

31. Nirvana is at peace with one's world

Heaven is a reward (or punishment if you go to Hell) for the life we've led.

One is a goal to be reached. The other is a punishment or reward system.

[greyl]

34. No, Nirvana is getting off of the wheel of life.

The end of the suffering incarnations.
It's clearly a reward for good deeds.

(didn't you see the Dalai Lama on Barbara Walters tonight?) ;)

[Erika]

37. I think that, poorly, I said the same thing. n/t

[greyl]

41. I don't think so.

You were contrasting Nirvana and Heaven, Heaven being like Santa Claus and Nirvana being a worthy and more intelligent belief.
I was saying that Nirvana and Heaven are essentially the same, and that in any case, it's incorrect for Buddhists to think they are holier than Christians by default.

[Erika]

43. Huh? Not at all

I was stating my interpretation of the two. If you disagree, that's fine. It's not me to judge either.

[greyl]

45. Ah, ok. :)

It just seemed like your interpretation was friendlier to Buddhism for some reason:

1. "in Buddhism there is no heaven, the goal is to free yourself and all others from the cycle of birth, suffering, old age, sickness, death and karmic rebirth."

2. "heaven is right up there with Santa, and the Easter Bunny..."

I just wanted to show how Heaven and Nirvana are alike.

[sam sarrha]

75. you are VERY wrong about Flawed.. Every being is a Buddha and is prefect

Samsara is a state of Ignorance of perfection

[greyl]

80. VERY wrong? I don't think so.

You see degrees of wrong like Buddhism sees degrees of enlightenment or "perfection".

According to Buddhism (not 20th century pop-American Gary Zukav Buddhism), one is incarnated on the Wheel of Life untill they have learned to be perfect. The subject of mainstream Buddhist religion is a flawed humanity in need of salvation, otherwise fated to be re-incarnated endlessly, and endlessly suffer. Christianity and Buddhism are both from the same culture, and they are both salvationist religions. While Buddhism is more friendly to philosophy than Christianity is, they both point to a "more noble" place outside or above this world as the highest attainable goal of human life. (Re-incarnation was "removed" from Christianity around 500 AD, btw)

I know where you're coming from, but look closer.
Buddhism: You are perfectly what you are. However, unless you get your shit together, you're doomed to suffer with the rest of humanity. Follow Buddhism and you can become most perfect and you won't need to return to this world teeming with "wheels of life" to suffer anymore.

[babylonsister]

30. You didn't check out Hinduism?Sounds good to me. nt

[sam sarrha]

76. that is fortunate for you, but i dont go in for the God/soul thing..and it

is really wordy..stuff

i find Buddhism to be delightfully Logical and simplistic.. see the Four Noble Truths

http://www.buddhanet.net ..Four Noble Truths that is essentially what Buddhism is about, the 4th truth is the 8 Fold Path, how to make the 3rd Truth work

[ima_sinnic]

23. heaven is whatever you believe it is, and what your "karmic work" is

that cornball idiot on abc this evening saying that Jews, Muslims, etc. wouldn't go to Heaven (with a capital H) meant, they won't go to HIS heaven. They'll go to their own versions of heaven, which are all different from each other and from mine, yours, and everybody else's. I always enjoy the description of the afterlife in Autobiography of a Yogi, the vision he got from his departed guru of all different planes of existence, some for serious karmic work, others for "playing," with other spirits all around who are also on their journeys. It's been a while since I read it and I can't remember too much specifically--need to look back at that...

[greyl]

39. on that cornball idiot.

If you mean the one whose bomb malfunctioned, he certainly DID mean "that Jews, Muslims, etc. wouldn't go to Heaven (with a capital H) at all, not just his heaven.
If heaven is whatever you believe it is, why not allow him his belief of heaven? It must be because you think the "authentic" heavens are different from what cornball idiots believe them to be. So, heaven is whatever you believe it is, unless you're a cornball idiot, right? ;)

I think I'll let the phrase "the kingdom of heaven is spread upon the earth and men do not see it" be my answer to the OP.

edit: of course you didn't mean the one whose bomb malfunctioned. my bad.

[ima_sinnic]

51. what ARE you talking about?

Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramahansa Yogananda was published in 1946. He was a Hindu holy man of the highest caliber and his book a classic and engaging introduction to Hindu mysticism.

And I repeat my assertion that "heaven" is whatever you believe it is. If you're offended by that, I can rest assured that I probably won't run into you in my afterlife, which will be far removed from the materialistic Candy Land of the jesus-bots with its gold-paved streets and people with wings running around in sheets. sheesh.

[greyl]

63. I wasn't talking about "Autobiography of a Yogi".

I thought that was clear.
I'm not offended by anything you said.
Why don't you answer my questions?

[ima_sinnic]

64. I still don't know what questions you are talking about

In my original post I was talking about some "Christian" pastor or somebody who was interviewed on abc by Barbara Walters on Monday evening. The whole topic of the interview was the existence of "Heaven." This guy said basically the standard line, that if you don't accept JC as "your lord and savior" you won't go to "heaven." She outright asked him if that included, for example, people of the Jewish faith, Muslims, and *gasp* "atheists," and his answer boiled down to "no, they won't"--as if "Heaven" were some literal stop on the celestial Red Line, a Real Place that people will actually "go to." To that I say GOOD! I would not want to spend eternity with dumb@$$es like him who believe parables and myths are literally true and think they have "the answer" for everybody in the world. I don't believe in his "heaven" so it really doesn't hurt my feelings that he says I won't be there. There is nobody whose vision of "heaven" I would deny. Some mad bomber envisions his heaven, the "Jeezus worshippers" envision theirs, I envision mine, where's the denial?

[greyl]

72. I was confused by one of your sentences.

This one:
"heaven is whatever you believe it is, and what your "karmic work" is that cornball idiot on abc this evening saying that Jews, Muslims, etc. wouldn't go to Heaven (with a capital H) meant, they won't go to HIS heaven."

I read that as the cornball saying "they won't go to HIS heaven".

For the record, these were my two questions to you:

-If heaven is whatever you believe it is, why not allow him his belief of heaven?
-So, heaven is whatever you believe it is, unless you're a cornball idiot, right?

I hope I'm being clear.

[ima_sinnic]

73. sorry to write confusingly--there should be a period after the subject

"heaven is whatever you believe it is, & what your 'karmic work' is. that cornball idiot . . ."
yes "that cornball" DID say "they won't go to HIS heaven."

to which I say, "whatever." Nowhere do I disallow him his belief of heaven. It is HIS belief, he has every right to have it. not sure what to make of your 2nd question. No matter how you shape it, it still boils down to heaven being in the mind of the heaven-seeker, whether it's been shaped by influences like the "cornball idiot's" vision of heaven or some completely personal vision.

[greyl]

74. So, we agree afterall. :) nt

[sam sarrha]

77. heaven is a faith up there with Santa and the easter bunnie

[Kablooie]

26. Heaven does NOT exist!

Only Hell.

[neoblues]

56. And we're probably already there.

[greyl]

33. Check out Denial of Death by Ernest Becker

Denial of Death (Pulitzer Prize 1974)
Ernest Becker / $11.20

Humans share an overwhelming survival instinct with all living species. However, human beings alone have the brain power to understand that this is ultimately doomed to failure. Hence, for humans, death anxiety is more than a response to actual danger situations; it is a psychological constant and is what distinguishes human psychological, emotional and spiritual life from that of other species. Ongoing existential death anxiety must be repressed for normal mental health, and this is the energy which, at its deepest level, is cooking away in the human unconscious. Forces noticed by other investigators of the human psyche, such as sex and aggression, accumulation, will to power, and mimetic desire, are best understood as historically and culturally shaped manifestations of this deeper ontological need to deny death and seek symbolic immortality.
http://www.flightfromdeath.com/books.htm

It should help keep that conversation going with your partner. ;)

[Erika]

36. Thank you.

I find no fear in the finality of death. It's not something that no one has gone through before. It is part of nature. Although I find Heaven a pleasing thought, it just doesn't make much sense.

I would rather believe in my own inadequate way that I tried to live my life in the best way I could, without beating others out of a profit or sending others to war for reasons I could not believe in.

As St. Francis said when he was asked to comment on what he would do if he knew death was imminent , he said "I think I would just keep on hoeing my garden".

[babylonsister]

38. I hope I die while I'm hoeing my garden! That would be

delicious!

[Psephos]

40. Emerson on a life well-lived

To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty; to find the best in others; to leave the world a bit better, whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is to have succeeded.
- Ralph Waldo Emerson

[Erika]

42. The simplicity and eloquence of Emerson is beautiful

It would be good to see humility and a social conscience once again revived.

We have lost our way, whether it be a Christian way, or a humanitarian way.

[greyl]

49. It's not just the finality of death, it's the eventuality of death.

From another angle, it's the temporal limitation of life. No matter how one chooses to live one's life, one's life will end eventually. There may be over 6 and a half billion subtly different strategies that humans are taking at this moment to deal with that one. Some of them at the extreme place a higher value on their imagined immortality than on their own and other's lives. Some withdraw from the world, others are creators and destructors.
The evidence is overwhelming that our culture is preoccupied with belief systems, delusions, and behaviours from numbing to ecstatic, which are based upon the repeating deep-consciousness mantra: "Somehow, I must be immortal, somehow, I must escape this life".

"Although I find Heaven a pleasing thought, it just doesn't make much sense."

I'm realizing that we may be using different definitions of Heaven. The Heaven that's up in the sky with harps, thrones, pearly gates and virgins? Yes, I agree, that's Great Pumpkin territory.

"I would rather believe in my own inadequate way that I tried to live my life in the best way I could"

I wholly agree with the heart of what you said, but why not describe your way as adequate?
Screw self deprecation. :)

[neoblues]

57. With You, I Agree

Death is a part of life. You can't have one without the other, and there's just no reason to think life/consciousness exists beyond this mortal coil. Indeed, there's no reason to think it should.

If there is another plane of existence, I sure hope it involves a vast change in who we are... for if it resembles this existence, it could hardly be called "Heaven". If we don't change in significant ways--beyond our imagnining (and making us such that we wouldn't even be recognized as 'human'), eternal existence is going to be very monotonous. There are only so many things that each of us enjoy, and given a million years doing each will pretty much take the pleasure away... what then?

[Freedom_from_Chains]

35. Well the truth is no one really know what happens when you die

But the upside is, everyone is guaranteed an opportunity to find out.

[NMMNG]

46. Denial of the finality of death

People don't want to admit that we die and become worm food. They'd rather think we live forever in some mystical paradise with a supreme being. It's so much more comforting to think this, that people will comfort friends/family of the deceased with "s/he's gone on to a better place now". It's simply avoiding the reality by dressing it up in a fantasy.

[Erika]

47. and it's avoiding their responsibility for the life they conducted here

They think they will be forgiven for all they sanctioned and the fights for the poor they chose not to fight.

Kind of a strange situation: forgive me for not being perfect, I hired someone else to do the job.

[NMMNG]

48. That too

It's very different when you have to account for your actions in the here and now, because humanity is the sole judge of them, and no mystical being died to wipe away all of your sins.

[newswolf56]

50. Relevant lines (in italic) from Lao Tzu:

The Tao that can be named
Is not the eternal Tao

which applied to the whole notion of "afterlife" suggests:

"The afterlife that can be named
Is not the true afterlife"

to which it is perhaps relevant to add:

When a sage of the lowest order
Hears of the Great Tao, he laughs aloud;
If he does not laugh,
It is not yet the true Tao.

I have experienced ghosts both canine and human (including the ghost of an especially beloved dog and the ghost of my father the moment he died 3000 miles away -- a ghost also seen by my female companion and by my very-much-alive-and-startled dog, who howled like a banshee); I have experienced malevolent hauntings (a haunted house where no dog would enter; a haunted apartment where a rocking-chair seemingly moved on its own and the grotesquely decayed corpse of a suicide was sometimes glimpsed hanging from an overhead light fixture; haunted lands in the back country so powerfully malign not even heavily armed parties of hunters will spend the night within their boundaries; the body-dumping ground of a serial killer over which the very light and air simmered with evil); I have experienced benevolent hauntings (places where the land itself seems to welcome your presence as if in long-delayed homecoming, where the shadows seem to dance as if in joy, back-country rivers where fishers hear the clear and troutly waters seem to take on female voice and call their names) -- but most of all, having worked nearly all my adult life as a journalist and having through my work repeatedly encountered the inexplicable, I came long ago to accept the disquieting fact that our self-assured notions of metaphysical reality whether secular or religious are but a life-raft afloat on a bottomless sea of mystery.

When I am especially shrunken by depression I reject all notion of afterlife as cowardice intensified to ultimate absurdity; I dismiss all near-death experience as final madness: consciousness unable to accept its own termination and driven to insanity and hallucination in one last terror-stricken act of denial -- with ghost phenomenon merely external delusions, equally demented, to ward off the final horror.

Then at other more whole and healthy times I reflect on the fact that in my own consciousness I have discovered knowledge I could not possibly have possessed unless I had lived other lives: the look and feel of times gone by, the forgotten use of antique tools, the meaning of lines from ancient poems, even the whereabouts of archaeological evidence; on those occasions I am certain that something survives, that some part of us is eternal, some pinpoint of consciousness that could as easily germinate in some other species or perhaps even in some other world: note the American Aboriginal experience of life as wolf or raven or bear or eagle or deer or mouse or salmon -- the eternal kinship of all species in the family of being, revealed to human consciousness by the door-opening effect of peyote. But in truth we simply do not know.

Though our conditioning and choices in this realm may surely shape our entire being.

Which is why I regard the Abrahamic religions as the most savagely cruel theological tyrannies in human history: not only their implicit slave-hierarchies and their implacable hatreds of women and nature, but their terrifying notion that after death one might be eternally damned.

As for me, I prefer to believe as my long-ago ancestors believed: that one simply returns to the womb of the Mother, there to be transformed in accordance with the momentum of nature and/or karma -- whether one remains conscious of the transformation or not, at one with Tao.

Hence Lao Tzu:

You look for it and you see nothing special.
You listen for it and you hear nothing special.
You act according to it and you find no end.

And Taliesin, who said it yet more succinctly:

There is nothing in which I have not been.

And of course all the blessed scientists who shaped our knowledge of the conservation of energy and matter.

Thus Fritjof Capra:

The Tao of Physics...my whole environment...a gigantic cosmic dance.

*********

(Erika I hope this contributes to your dialogue.)

[Psephos]

70. This is my idea of a thoughtful post n/t

[newswolf56]

79. Thank you.

It seems we share a connection to Michigan too (though I have not been there for many years): one of those rivers that has the curious quality of seeming to call people by name is the South Branch of the Au Sable.

[freestyle]

52. Faith without works is dead. So says the Epistle of James.

Belief or not in an afterlife is independent of accepting our responsibilities to each other and to the earth. Thinking that you can screw people over, or worse, your whole life and then expect forgiveness seems like a risky proposition at best. I recall something about not putting God to the test. I also see whatever judgement there may be as based on the balance of deeds over your life. But, I don't know.

If you do right here, it really doesn't matter if this is all there is. Even if there is no eternal life, your contributions will live on in the memories of those you touched.

[InaneAnanity]

54. If Heaven exists...

...and the vast majority of Christians go there, i'd rather spend my time in hell, because I can't stand 'em.

Heaven is just a creation to ease our fears of death and the end of our being. It's also, conveniently, used to control the masses, and to convince them to allow the powerful to dominate them, because in the end the pious and poor get eternal bliss easier.

It's an entirely ridiculous concept.

[Goblinmonger]

59. Dude

You, me, the other regulars at A/A, we can PARTY in hell, because I agree with your post 100%.

[ozone_man]

58. Imagine there's no heaven,

It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.

- John Lennon


This sort of says it all, doesn't it? But to answer directly, no, heaven does not exist. It's denial and selfishness that allows people to believe it. The reason why belief in heaven is off the charts in this country is that it meshes with our capitalist greed based system. Promising rewards in heaven allows denial of equity on Earth, and we have the most unequitable country in the developed world. Socialism by contrast teaches equity on Earth, therefore the concepts of heaven and God do not thrive under socialism.

[neoblues]

61. Interesting observation

Especially about how it's used as a tool to allow for much inequity and wrong in this life...

[neoblues]

60. Failure of Imagination: Can't Imagine a Workable Heaven

I can't imagine a Heaven that would provide eternal happiness. Indeed, I can't even figure how much of the life we know (and can't imagine being without) would exist in Heaven. For many parts of what we might assume to be there wouldn't be pleasing to everyone (you can't please everyone all the time). Or are we changed beyond our imagining? Drugged or made such that regardless of our Earthly personalities, everything is pleasing to us?

The Traditional Christian Heaven with angels, communing with Jesus, whatever... holds no appeal for me, especially since I'm not a 'believer'. Some seem to be proposing that there's a Heaven for each faith? Or perhap for each individual? Still, I haven't heard many, if any, descriptions of Heaven beyond the most cursory which state little more than the existence of some happy place.

Alas, starting with the belief that Heaven is a fantasy, the fact that no one can even give a robust guess as to what a Heaven is or should be merely seems like further evidence of it's fantastic nature.

[applegrove]

62. Heaven extists for the people who believe in it. As does re-incarnation.

Who are you or I to say Mrs. X is not in heaven when everyone in her family, and she, think she is there. My grandmothers are in the place they feel they belong. And they are together with those who passed before them.

[Critters2]

65. Yes

O8)

[Zebedeo]

66. Absolutely

Of course Heaven exists. And if you believe that Christ was a person to respect, admire, and follow, then you should listen to what He said about Heaven.

the spirit of humanity does not follow Christian values of humility, sacrifice, and caring for your fellow beings

You are correct. Mankind has a disappointing propensity to disregard such values.

I believe it is far easier to tell ourselves that our earthly sins will be forgiven and we will spend everlasting life in Heaven, than to acknowledge self accountability and responsibility and that our duty is to make life better here now.

We are not "telling ourselves" that our sins will be forgiven. Jesus Himself told us that.

I am sick of the right wingers boycotting commercial ventures for saying Happy Holidays, while they allow Santa and commercialism to be the main message of their movement.

Christmas should not be focused on commercialism or Santa Claus. St. Nicholas was a man, and reportedly a very charitable man. I would have no problem setting aside a day to honor St. Nicholas. But it should not eclipse the celebration of the birth of the Lord Jesus Christ. Commercialism really has no place in any of this, IMHO.

As far as Happy Holidays goes, I don't particularly care for the greeting, but I am not particularly offended by it, either. I wish my Christian friends Merry Christmas. I wish my Jewish friends Happy Chanukah. I wish my Muslim friends Ramadan Mubarak. I tell atheists "see you soon" or "have a nice day." I don't say "Happy Holidays," because it seems contrived and artificial.

[InaneAnanity]

67. Do you hear voices?? n/t

[Zebedeo]

68. Yes.

Yes, I do.:dilemma:

[InaneAnanity]

69. Your doctor

should prescribe you some lithium, or some other drug to combat psychotic tendencies.

[BoneDaddy]

71. Here and Now

Jesus, contrary to Paul (who thought,mistakingly, that the return of Jesus would happen in his lifetime), said the kingdom of heaven is "here and now". Similar to a Buddhist view that heaven is a state of being, like nirvana. Whether or not you believe in a historical Jesus or Jesus as a symbol of human consciousness at it's best, his message is one of compassion, a virtue not practiced regularly at that time. The origin does not matter, the message does.

If we reduce ourselves down to the most minute particle, we contain the entire universe, suns, stardust, matter, gas, liquid in our bodies. We could not come into being if the universe did not exist. We are it's creations, with consciousness, duality etc. When we die, we return to the perfection that is creation, the order, the universe, God if you choose. We are energy beings and return our matter and energy upon death. Energy does not die, it merely changes form. Whether or not we retain aspects of personality or any remnant of our previous selves, I am not sure, but we will all find out

[sam sarrha]

78. Jesus allegedly grew up right on the Old Silk Road, from India.. Buddhists

would have had the opportunity to travel to Palestine for 500 years at the time of his alleged life..

it is Glaringly apparent to anyone who knows anything about Buddhism that what he taught is either Buddhism or influenced by Buddhism. I always thought they put the Old testament on the New Testament to keep it from being confused with Buddhism. he didn't have to travel to India as it is said.. India traveled to him along the Silk Road.

Where else would a Jew at a time where people gleefully stoned to death their friends and family for what wouldn't even be a misdemeanor today come up with a Philosophy of Universal Love and forgiveness..?? there is some obvious references to Meditation in his teachings that were covered up calling it Prayer

[BoneDaddy]

81. agreed

I totally agree. Mahayana Buddhism came about around the same time. Palestine did not exist in a vacuum and neither did India or the near East. Cultures melded, overlapped, incorporated aspects of each into one another. Christianity, Buddhism or any religion for that matter were forays into new aspects of human consciousness and not meant, ever, to be literal