A disturbing point about the "God warrior" from Trading Spouses

[EstimatedProphet]

Actually, there's so many disturbing points that they can't all be listed. So here's one of them.

On the show, the woman goes into a rant and starts screaming about how terrible the other family is. One of the points she brings up is that they follow astrology, which she loudly equates to witchcraft and satanism.

Now, I'm not going to critique her opinions-she has the intellectual capacity of a brick IMO. But here's what I find distrubing about this:
according to Matthew chapter 2 there is the famous visit from the three wise men. It is accepted that these men were astrologers, which means the first to experience the Epiphany (other than Mary and Joseph) were astrologers. There's a point to this being mentioned-it was their wisdom and knowledge which led them to find Jesus. In other words, it was the skills with astrology that made it possible for the Magi to validate the newborn Jesus as the king of Jews.

Which means that the nutty woman, or (more likely) her church deny the story of the Epiphany. They are openly preaching heresy.

Am I surprised by this? Yes and no. I've attended fundamentalist churches before, and I know there's some twisted things presented in them. However, they are usually just twisted things. Claiming that astrologers are evil definately includes the Magi, and the point of the story is that they used their skills (which are evil, according to her) to validate that the son of God had been born. This is openly a denial of the Gospel of Matthew.

Can they claim to be Christian, claim that they believe in the literal truth of the bible as the direct word of God, and then deny the Gospel of Matthew? No. IMO this is the straw that breaks the camel's back. There's a lot of fundamentalist churches that corrupt and twist the message of the bible, but this denies it.

[Gman]

1. Oh no, no!

You're not supposed to talk about this! They don't want to think about this.

But you're right on the money.

[SteppingRazor]

2. Yeah, but they would respond with...

The Magi were _astronomers_ not astrologers. They just studied the sky, they didn't try to predict things from those studies. Which makes them OK.

Of course, I'm also against astrology, but for completely different reasons.

[EstimatedProphet]

7. And I would come back with:

They claimed that the star "led" them to Jesus, and that's astrology.

[SteppingRazor]

9. And they would retort:

If you were an astronomer, and you saw three stars suddenly come together in the sky over a location not too far away, wouldn't you want to check it out?

On edit: Why, yes! I HAVE had this conversation with a fundie before! How did you know?! :evilgrin:

[EstimatedProphet]

15. You seriously have had this conversation with them?

Bummer. I hope you were able to wash the taste out of your mouth...ick. I also hope you were able to smack them down.

I would answer:

The bible doesn't mention 3 stars coming together. Also, according to Matthew, they were "led". They weren't just observing and trying to explain (astronomy) they were letting stars guide their actions (astrology).

[SteppingRazor]

17. Probably would have had an answer for that too...

You know, there's answers for everything if you really want to justify something. Pity I didn't know that part of the Bible well enough to reply.

As for fundie conversations, I've had scads of them covering just about everything. I lived in Colorado Springs for four years, home of Focus on the Family, among many, many other like-minded organizations. So, talk like that just couldn't be avoided unless I wanted to wander into the Rockies and live like a hermit.

On the plus side, there was some killer skiing to be had.

[booley]

22. to which i would reply

if you were checking out stars, why would you bring gifts or assume the King of the Jews was being born right underneath?

I am not doubting your conversation with a fundy led this way. I am just still astounded at the mental gymnaastics they do just so they don't have to admit they are wrong.

[Gman]

23. Did they think they were going to ride their camels to the star

or something, I'd ask.

[lazarus]

26. really?

So sailors are also astrologers? A sextant is an astrology tool?

I've used the stars to guide myself hiking (back when I could hike); does that make me an astrologer?

[Ian David]

14. They predicted where they'd find Jesus on the 15th of Tishri..

By the way, did you remember to wish Jesus a Happy Birthday on October 18th this year?

[Neocondriac]

3. Please stop watching that show......

You owe yourself more than that!...imo

[EstimatedProphet]

8. Oh, I didn't watch it

I just watched the online clips of her psychotic breakdown.

[maxsolomon]

4. non-disturbing point

aren't the gothic cathedrals of europe literally encrusted with gargoyles? yes they are.

her interpretation of christianity stands outside the history of the faith, and outside the gospels, as you said.

i could talk about her all day.

[MrMonk]

6. but those are Catholic cathedrals

and every God-fearing Christian knows that the Catholic rites were carried from ancient Babylon to deceive us into worshipping Satan. (ref. Jack Chick, et al.)

[Goblinmonger]

21. I believe the god warrior

was Catholic.

[sui generis]

5. It's that darn little black or white world they live in

if she doesn't reject EVIL and IMPURITY at the top of her lungs and with all the hystrionics she can muster her etarnal soul will be forfeit and her wonderful loving baby jeebus is going to boil her in a lake of boiling fire FOR EVAAAAAAH!

That's love for ya.

Anyway, I've kind of determined that most of these nitwits are barely literate anyway, and almost certainly have not "read" the bible.

They've read a passage here and a passage there and they've pondered the imponderable and they've come away scared to death not of good and evil, but just of being on the least powerful side.

That woman would be sacrificing human children under the full moon if her god told her it was the right and good thing to do, provided he was indeed the almighty and not just second best.

[EstimatedProphet]

10. Oh, no argument there at all

Many of them have no idea of what the inside of the bible even looks like. Many more that have read it believe it's a newspaper, and is a strict reporting of factual information, with no metaphor at all. I don't know which one is worse...

The thing is, for me, this little tidbit goes way past the usual twisting of interpretation to fit someone's wants and ends. This is simply heresy.

[SpiralHawk]

11. the Popes all had public astrologers for the first millennium and more

Then the Vatican decided to hide away a lot of the PRACTICES.

So much is hidden at the Vatican. So much.

"Ad Astra, per Aspera."

[TallahasseeGrannie]

12. If that woman didn't exist

we would have had to invent her.

She is the very personification of the small, radical and incredibly stupid extreme Christian right.

[Ian David]

13. You'd have to be evil to give a baby Frankensense and Mur...

The labels on those things clearly say, "Not suitable for children under 3 years old."

[SteppingRazor]

16. OK, I just watched the God Warrior's mental breakdown on iFilms...

I gotta tell ya, I wasn't disturbed at all. In fact, I giggled. I mean, c'mon -- it was kinda funny.

[Dogmudgeon]

18. What makes a person like that?

Like an obsessive, religiomanic Christian Fundamentalist, that is.

Fear. Lots and lots of fear.

Anxiety, Loneliness. Alienation. Authoritarian experiences.

The Fundy culture is very similar to pre-Christian Celtic paganism. Back in those days, pagan society was incredibly violent and superstitious. Even Caesar was appalled at the customs of his adversary Vercingetorix' people. Both abject fear of the deities and the possibility of being exiled to hell after death played on their minds. They fought among themselves constantly, there were frequent murders over adulterous relationships, they drank heavily, and beat their children often, on the premise that it would make them tougher.

Sound familiar? Wicca, it wasn't.

Fanaticism like that comes from a culture of violence, which explains (to some degree) why the American South has such incredibly high rates of personal crime, higher infant mortality, lower levels of education, and other social problems. It might even be the long-term residue of the Civil War. And of course, it was the Celtic Irish and Scots who initially settled the area. They were a lot more civilized than were the Gauls under Vercingetorix, but somehow, the old insanity was reactivated -- perhaps under the guns of the British, and then the Confederacy, and finally the Union.

This isn't a problem that demands ridicule of Southerners or Christians. I personally have deep affections for both groups of people. We're talking about millions of people across the country. These are our friends, neighbors, and relatives. The recent ascent of the Religious Right has only exacerbated these problems.

We need to find a way to solve them. Soon.

--p!

[manic expression]

19. Come on

Are you serious? Do you think the Romans are a good source? They, Julius Caesar especially, wanted to demonize Celtic culture, as it served as petty propaganda for their campaigns.

First of all, it wasn't "Vercingetorix' people", it was a collection of many tribes. They fought among themselves because they were DIFFERENT TRIBES, much like the Native Americans. There are murders over adulterous relationships ALL THE TIME, in ALL CIVILIZATIONS, INCLUDING OUR OWN. Why don't you run along and claim every people is "uncivilized" for occasionally having the exact same thing happen? Drinking heavily is about as relevant as...oh, it isn't.

You want to see REAL child abuse for stronger adulthood? Check out Sparta. Oh, and guess what? Sparta defeated Athens and fought off the Persians. How "uncivilized" :eyes:

The simple fact that you refer to the Celts as "uncivilized", as well as making no distinction between Celts of Briton and Celts of (modern-day) France is quite telling. Please, before you go around disrespecting other cultures and peoples, get a grip first.

[Dogmudgeon]

24. Well, THAT was amusing.

So little knowledge of of Celtic history, so much political correctness.

Since you didn't bother to read enough of my post before you flamed out, I'll re-direct you to the topic: The paganism and general culture of the pre-Christian Celts, approximately 300 BCE. As witnessed by not only Caesar, but hundreds of lesser-known writers from the northern frontiers of the Mediterranean basin.

They certainly didn't spend all their time dancing around the Sacred Oak Tree, enjoying non-competitive polyamo(u)rous sex, and worshiping the Great Earth Goddess. They were, like the Hittites and Aryans to the East, a feisty, superstitious, and violent bunch. You won't find this information in your Dungeons and Dragons Game Master Manual, the back of a U2 album, or in a book about "Wicca".

They were badasses. Extreme badasses, like many of the so-called "Christians" of whom I speak. 'Nuff said.

Please take the time to read the entire post before you take the part of Internet scold. Failure to do so ain't civilized.

--p!

[manic expression]

25. Really

Try reading my reply. Did I say the Celts were not "feisty" or "violent"? No. However, a warrior culture does not equal an inferior culture, as you were wrongly asserting. On the contrary, the Celtic culture was rich and quite far from simplicity (also, it was far better than the Christian societies which came after it).

Back to reality.... Your reasons for insulting Celtic culture were answered in my reply. They included the way they fought among each other (the Romans, or any other civilization, didn't?), even though Gaul was made up of completely different tribes; the fact that there was murder over adultery (and our society today doesn't suffer from that?); the fact that Celts drank heavily (too bad so many other cultures did the same, even after being "uplifted and Christianized" :puke:); and the practice of beating children to strengthen them (the Spartans did the same, so do many households in America, although perhaps not for the same purpose). All of these reasons for such degradation are more than wrong. Try reading this post, even though you ignored the other one, and you'll see exactly why.

I would also like to know your thoughts on the fact that there were very little, if any, religious conflicts caused by pre-Christian European traditions. With the onset of Christianity and its dogma, intolerance skyrocketed, and the world has been feeling the terrible effects ever since.

Also, the druids DID worship in Oak Groves. Furthermore, the Celts DID worship the goddess, as well as deities of nature. That is obvious. Perhaps if you had the slightest grasp on the reality of anything, or if you could just do a little thinking, you might be able to get somewhere.

I guess I'm just not "sivilized"...:eyes:

[maxsolomon]

20. given that these problems are intractable & ancient

(your example goes back 2000 years), i doubt that solving them soon is an option.

i'm beginning to appreciate the steadying function the catholic church has provided for christianity. do not err too far in either direction, change slowly, keep the hands on the tiller. when martin luther let the genie out of the bottle, the millenial insanity that had cropped up occasionally & been brutally & remorselessly repressed by the catholic church was now free to metastisize.

the end product is The God Warrior Lady.

[manic expression]

27. Umm...

so hierarchical, authoritarian and intolerant religious institutions are now A-OK?

The Catholic Church started the Crusades. The Catholic Church started the inquisition. The Catholic Church brutally repressed other faiths, as seen in Prussia. The Catholic Church stopped scientific advancement, whereas the Greek and Egyptian pagan traditions encouraged them. The Catholic Church sacked Constantinople. The Christians (including the Catholic Church) destroyed some of the greatest buildings of the ancient world, all because of hatred, delusion and ignorance. The Christians burned countless people at the stake for "witchcraft". The Catholic Church stomped upon a myriad of amazing and precious cultures out of sheer intolerance and baseness.

The old religions of Europe, North Africa and Mesopotamia were tolerant and accepting. There was very little, if any, religious conflict between the various faiths of that time period.

That is but a taste.