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Why Satan might have been right. A case against the Christian god.

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howard112211 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 03:11 PM
Original message
Why Satan might have been right. A case against the Christian god.
I will make the case that, provided one believes the teachings of the bible to be literally true, Satan might be actually a heroic character, and that philosophically he represents traits that are desireable from a modern point of view, and that historically and politically he represents elements that the ruling elites had interest in surpressing. I will argue that his role is similar to that of Prometheus in Greek mythology.

Here is the central question: What kind of god would create living and feeling creatures, bestow the freedom to make choices on them, but keep the wisdom to make the right choices from them? What kind of god would then say, „I give you a choice, but blindly choose me, or I will cast you into the flames“?

Let's examine the teachings of Genesis and what role Lucifer actually did play in that story. God created humans and gave them consciousness and free will. He gave them the power to name things. He created them „in his own image“ except for one thing: They did not know good from evil. So essentially, they had to rely on god for any decision of relevance. He stored the fruit of knowledge in a special place of his realm, and ordered humans not to eat or suffer death. He created angels to watch over the humans and created Lucifer as his assistant. He essentially created humans as toys, creatures who are a nice decoration to a nice garden, but with no real substance.

So what did Lucifer do? Apparently, he got fed up with the situation. He said onto himself, „I will set these poor dumb creatures free.“. So he came to Eve and said „Eat this fruit and you will be like god and know good from evil. And you will not die.“. Lucifer had enough foresight to realize that, even if god could keep humans from eating from the tree of life also, the knowledge of good and evil would empower them, to a point where they would surpass god, and would in fact not die.

God of course punished humans severely for eating, and moreover damned Lucifer to eternal suffering. Here is how this story resembles greek mythology: Prometheus stole the fire from the gods and brought it to the humans. The fire is often said to represent enlightenment. The gods punished Prometheus by tying him to a rock and having his liver be eaten over and over for all eternity, but the damage was done: Humans knew good from evil. Even the name „Lucifer“ i.e. bringer of light, implies this analogy.

All throughout the bible, god's will alway appears in form of a command. The new testament is no better than the old one in this regard, but we will get to that. Let's fast forward the story a little: So Moses gets the ten commandments. Those commandments which people like to advocate as the prime source of morality in our society. But are they really good? At first glance it may seem so, but I think there is a better alternative. Aside from the first commandment, which is god's jelousy in the purest form, what are the others? Thou shalt not kill, steal or desire, and thou shalt love thy neighbour. Pretty good right? But what they really say is „love your neighbour or I will cast you into the flames“, „don't steal or I will cast you into the flames“ and so on. Always there is an implied threat behind them. How can one truly love, if one is forced to love? What did Lucifer say in contrast? He said „Thou shalt not anything. Here I offer you the knowledge of good and evil. The same knowledge I and the gods have. No go forth and put it to use, and make your own decisions“. Wouldn't it be much better if, instead of having rules forced upon them, humans relied on their knowledge of good and evil instead? Is it always bad to steal? What if I am stealing something that is making the owner sick?

Christianity will tell us that humans are sinful, because of our original sin of knowing good from evil. But how can it be a sin, if it is the same powers that god is putting to use? What kind of god would keep this knowledge from us. Christians will tell us, that our efforts are doomed to fail, and that god will end the experiment at some point, when we admit our failures. But the signs are pointing the other way. Violence between humans has been on steady decline, from century to century, and our lifespans and number have ever increased. As a species, it is becoming less and less probably that we will become extinct completely, and as individuals, knowledge and science will put immortality within our reach and some point.

Ok, someone might say, that was the god of the old testament. Jesus is better right? But is he really? We are told he died for our sins. But again, the sins he died for are essentially the sin of knowledge of good from evil. Moreover, it is claimed he died for all the sinners who were not able to live Leviticus by the letter, because humans are inherently sinful and unable to follow all these rules.

But the thing is, is it really impossible to live a flawless live in accordance with Leiviticus, if that is what one desires? I would never choose to even try, but as an orthodox Jew for instance. They actually do follow all the rules, at least the ones modern society allows them to follow, and if it weren't for modern laws preventing it, there would be people who really follow every rule to the letter. It is not desireable, but not impossible either.

In the parables of Jesus, the element of force is ever present. „What you have done to the least of my brothers you have done to me.“ In other words, „treat others well or I will cast you into the flames.“ Not „treat others well because you know good from evil“. God is always the judge. No where is stated the Satan will burn anyone. Satan will lead people away from god's rule, but god is the one who casts you into the flames. Jesus said „no one comes to the Lord except through me“. So in many ways, his rule is even more strict than that of god the father.

„Blessed are the meek“, but what about those who rise against oppressive power? Why are they not blessed?

One of my favorites is the story of the adulteress. This is always presented as the prime example of how wise and forgiving Jesus is. But is he really? Let's look at the story. A woman get's brought forward to be stoned, as the rules imposed by Jesus (or god, they are the same right?) demand. People gather around to carry out god's will. What does Jesus do? At least, what he doesn't do is say „listen people, this rule was stupid to begin with, let's not stone her.“ No, he says „Who is without sin shall cast the first stone“. But what sin is he talking about? Chances are, there were a few people who led pretty decent lives among those who gathered around. What he is saying is, „You creatures are unworthy of carrying out MY justice. You creatures who think you know good from evil come here and pretend like you want to carry out MY word, while in reality you are questioning whether all of this even makes sense. Go from my eyes you sinners“. And then he tells the woman „go forth and sin no more“ and spares her. So finally he does demonstrate that the rules that he imposed were flawed. They are not universal. He is above them and can negate them if he wishes. Thus he establishes himself as the ruler once more and demonstrates that his word is above and beyond any rules. We are told that Lucifer would have probably said „go and stone the woman“. I find it more likely that he would have said „Use your knowledge of good and evil. Perhaps you will find that the rule that was imposed by god was evil and the woman should not die“.

Judge not or you will be judged yourself. But justice deliverd by a „jury of peers“ seems to be quite effective these days.

I like it when people say that the USA founding fathers were Christians. But in fact, the founding documents rather suggest that they were inspired by Lucifer. Take the declaration of independence. The first, and most crucial sentence is „We the people hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal and are thus equipped with the same inalienable right.“ In other words, we humans are setting an axiom. The equality of all is nothing that can be proven or disproven, or derived from some deeper principle. It is something that has to be „seen as self evident“, in other words, derived from the divine knowledge of good and evil. The document does not say „We the people pledge to live by the rule of the Lord“, it says „WE hold these truths as self evident“. And the church and the British crown hunted them down for this blatant heresy.

One more of my favorites is gods unwillingless to reveal himself. God demands „blind“ obedience. He does not come forth and say, here I am. He leaves us in doubt of his existence, but demands obedience regardless. How cruel is that? Lucifer realized this, when he came to Jesus and said, „Ok, so if you are god's son, then fly up this tower“. In other words, „prove it beyond the shadow of a doubt, instead of tormenting humans with uncertainty.“ But Jesus of course is dismissive and says „do not try god“. „Don't pick a fight with me“. Again the implied threat.

And of course he died for our alledged sins, but what kind of death is it if you are really god and can rise from the grave?

We are told that at the end of times, human society will fail, and god will return to sit on the throne once more, with all the sheep who blindly followed below his feet. Lucifer, and those he could tempt to use their knowledge of good and evil will be destroyed, and will be damned live in the wasteland, the ruins of the world they were to flawed to maintain. But what if that is not how it plays out? What if humans, with their knowledge of good and evil, are indeed able to create paradise on earth? Would that not prove god wrong? I am not convinced that this will not eventually occur. The claim that Satan is evil appears as heavy propaganda to me. He is depicted with a distorted and ugly face, much like what the nazis did to their enemies. How can that even be true, if he was once Lucifer, „the bringer of light“, the most beautiful of all angels?

People tell us, well the fundamentalist Christians are bad, but only because they are not TRULY following the teachings of the Christ. You know, loving your neighbour and all that, and not casting the stone since you are a sinner yourself. They are only bad because they are hypocrites. Sometimes Christians sound like Libertarians who say, „oh come on, the only reason why the deregulated markets failed were because they were not deregulated enough. What we need is even MORE of the same“.I am thinking, maybe the real reason why Christianity sucks is because even as a philosophical concept it is a failed ideology. Maybe humans should dwell less on their alledged sinfulness, and rely more on their personal ability to see good from evil, which Lucifer brought them and god and the churches did not want them to have and have defined and condemned as the original sin from which all other sins follow.

Perhaps Adam was lucky that his wife Eve was smart enough to accept Lucifer's offer and convince him to accept it as well.


(this text represents my own original work. I bestow it with a GNU public license, see http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html)



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d_r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. Interesting thoughts
You didn't sell me on it, but I liked reading your thinking. It has me thinking about "what the knowledge of good and evil is."

The stoning the adultress parable. I always thought of this one as really demonstrating how courageous a guy Jesus was. Imagine that you had lived your whole life knowing that the law said you should stone an adultress. And you were taught that law came straight from God himself. Your parents believed that, your grandparents. Everybody in society around you. It was the way it was. And this guy Jesus has the balls to get up and so no, this isn't right. That impresses me.
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howard112211 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Don't take it too serious.
Edited on Tue Oct-19-10 03:41 PM by howard112211
I just kinda miss writing highschool essays ;)
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howard112211 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. About the point you are making:
Isn't Jesus god, and god Jesus, according to Christian teachings? So wasn't the law Jesus was challenging his own law then? The law comes from Leviticus. God says adulterers shall die. Also, if Jesus was god, then did it really take courage to face off some mere humans? He could have just blasted them away, or not?
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d_r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-10 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Yeah if he was God
But if he was just some guy making a living for himself by pulling a hoax and going around and telling people they should be nice to each other, he was balls out.
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-10 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Two things:
There really is not any historical evidence for a REAL jesus at all, and considering that Christianity did not really get a start until well AFTER the death of the alleged jesus, that would make it difficult at best for him to be the "balls out" guy you describe.
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-10 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. Yes, it's my favorite story with Jesus. So rich and provocative. Trouble is, it is
most likely fake. It is not found in the most ancient manuscripts. Check it out.
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d_r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-10 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. aw that's a shame.
I think I'm going to keep it though. If somebody made it up later, it was a good thing that he did or we still might be stoning people.
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. Good cop/bad cop.
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randr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
4. From the Rock and Roll Bible
Please allow me to introduce myself
Im a man of wealth and taste
Ive been around for a long, long year
Stole many a mans soul and faith
And I was round when jesus christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made damn sure that pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fate
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But whats puzzling you
Is the nature of my game
I stuck around st. petersburg
When I saw it was a time for a change
Killed the czar and his ministers
Anastasia screamed in vain
I rode a tank
Held a generals rank
When the blitzkrieg raged
And the bodies stank
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name, oh yeah
Ah, whats puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah
I watched with glee
While your kings and queens
Fought for ten decades
For the gods they made
I shouted out,
Who killed the kennedys?
When after all
It was you and me
Let me please introduce myself
Im a man of wealth and taste
And I laid traps for troubadours
Who get killed before they reached bombay
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But whats puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah, get down, baby
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But whats confusing you
Is just the nature of my game
Just as every cop is a criminal
And all the sinners saints
As heads is tails
Just call me lucifer
cause Im in need of some restraint
So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse
Or Ill lay your soul to waste, um yeah
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, um yeah
But whats puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, um mean it, get down
Woo, who
Oh yeah, get on down
Oh yeah
Oh yeah!
Tell me baby, whats my name
Tell me honey, can ya guess my name
Tell me baby, whats my name
I tell you one time, youre to blame
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
6. Well, a careful reading of the silly Genesis story
Edited on Tue Oct-19-10 11:17 PM by Warpy
leaves you with the impression that the serpent told the truth and god lied. Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge and, contrary to the warning god gave to Adam, alone, neither one of them died. Part of the reason for god's hissy fit might have been that he was exposed as having exaggerated, at the very least. He might also have been annoyed at Adam for being such a useless wimp that he blamed everything on Eve.

Add to that the fact that the first part of the creation story was carried out by the Elohim, or plural gods, and you're left with another impression, that the god in Eden was maybe a kid, a god in training who really didn't know what he was doing but wanted some pets. The rest of the Elohim might have given him whatever people would accept him to get rid of his pestering.

And this is all predicated on your ability to suspend skepticism long enough to take the whole business at face value.

Personally, I think it's turtles all the way down.
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-10 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. The common belief is that they were to be immortal
in paradise, but upon eating the fruit, they had to leave and, eventually, die.

Which doesn't make a liar out of God. But, it is a story..... not exactly a living historical account of what actually happened.
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-10 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. That's right, it seems to me that God lied. My Christian friends would say the "death"
was spiritual death, which is to say that they became sinful. But the same people will insist that there was no physical death prior to this cosmic event (no evolution, remember?). Death entered the world with Adam's sin. OK, fine. But in that case God lied when he said,
"in the DAY that you eat from it you shall surely die." Genesis 2:17.
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sakabatou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-10 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Well, there had to be death in the Garden
Adam and Eve had to ingest and digest living matter. Therefore, there was death.
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darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-10 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Fruit and veg can "die"?
And here I thought those bananas I just threw out were "spoiled"...silly me.
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sakabatou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-10 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. No, they're designed
Just talk to Ray Comfort!
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Sal316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-10 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #6
21. That may be a simplistic interpretation....
...that the serpent told the truth and God lied, but that would have to assume that creation, and everything in it, was perfect. This isn't the case. Things are called "good", and not "perfect". Additionally, man is placed in the garden to tend and care for it (Gen 2:15). What do you do when you tend a garden, you weed it, trim the dead stuff, thin out the seedlings....all so that the health of the stuff in the garden is improved.

Perfection is stagnation. If things are perfect, then nothing will ever change.

Taking this to the tree of knowledge, when man ate from the fruit, although they gained knowledge of good and evil, their knowledge wasn't perfect. You can see this today in the fact that everyone THINKS they're right while those who oppose them are wrong. Also, people like the Third Reich believed they were doing good... the Taliban.... you see my point.

Does this mean there is no true good and no true evil? Not at all. But what it does mean is that our view of it contains biases that come from being imperfect.

Oh, and just to twist your noggin a little more, up until the serpent was cursed (Gen 3:14), it was probably one of the most beautiful creatures in the garden. Common interpretation of being tempted by a snake is nonsense. The snake wasn't what we know a snake is until after Eve ate the fruit.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
7. Very interesting post!
:) (or should that be :evilgrin: ?)
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-10 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
10. K&R
A very well thought-out essay. And you're absolutely correct in saying that the serpent gets a bad rap in all this. The serpent spoke the truth when he told Eve that they would not die if they ate of the fruit, because they didn't. It was Yahweh who lied to them. And then there's the observation about this allegorical tale which I find utterly callous for a god of love. And that is: not only did Yahweh create human toys incapable of making any judgments of their own, but he did so with the intent that they remain this way -- forever. Because Yahweh, at first, had no problem in allowing Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of life (immortality):

Genesis 2 (9) And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 2 (16) And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: (17) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

So Yahweh tells them that they can have it all except for the knowledge fruit. The immortality fruit they could have along with all the rest apparently, but they couldn't have any fruit that would give them any higher knowledge -- like Yahweh. So it would appear that ignorant immortal human cattle was to have been the pinnacle of Yahweh's creation objective. Which is not such a great creation if you ask me. Particularly since they were made in Yahweh's image.

But now after man has elevated himself to a godly level with the knowledge of good and evil, Yahweh suddenly becomes fearful that they'll also be immortal -- a point which makes absolutely no sense at this point, because they'd apparently been eating these "tree of life fruits" all along. Duh.

But then the most curious of all the verses (I think) happens, Yahweh refers to the existence of other gods:

Genesis 3 (22) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: (23) Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. (24) So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

One can only wonder why an Omniscient Yahweh would become worried that man would achieve immortality since he'd been allowing him to eat the fruit from the tree of life all along (Chapter 2 Verse 16).

But we now know that these tales were never intended to bear too much scrutiny and were written for a much less discerning audience. It wasn't until the last couple of centuries that most people could read. And prior to this there were few who had the courage to openly questioned the bible, or its veracity, or any of the illogic that can easily be found within its pages.

- But most of us have since eaten the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of myths and facts.......
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-10 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
18. If you're looking for a discussion with Biblical literalists, I think you're in the wrong place
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howard112211 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-10 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I am not looking for that particular discussion.
Edited on Fri Oct-22-10 08:40 PM by howard112211
The key argument in my text is that, even as a non-literalist, there are certain core elements of christianity that one cannot get around, that I reject as philosophical concepts, such as the inherent sinfulness of humans due to their knowledge of good and evil, and the necessity of salvation. Even if there is a god, I do not think we should crawl before him and apologize for being the way he created us. There is furthermore no reason to adhere to any rules imposed on us by such a god.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-10 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. These old wisdom texts have survived for millennia because many people have found
them rich in meaning

What, for example, does it mean -- In the midst of the garden, the tree of life grew, and there also the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? And why, in this garden, where one might eat from the tree of life, would anyone choose to eat instead from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

Knowing good from evil, of course, is knowing that we may should yes to some impulses but should say no to others: this moral knowledge brings with it commandments and injunctions -- as well as lost innocence. So the story introduces an injunction: But from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat, for on the day you will surely die

But perhaps nothing is more appealing than the forbidden, for (though mortal) we want to believe ourselves gods: the lie you will be like G-d always tempts us to explore good and evil further; and so from our very beginnings we try things that we know we should not try, and our innocent Paradise is lost

The tree of life remains there, where we once could have enjoyed it but chose otherwise, protected by a flaming sword flashing back and forth, lest we find our way back to it and destroy it

Thus -- I set before you life and death, blessing and curse: choose life, that you and your children may live (Deuteronomy 30:19)
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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Is that where the term "ignorance is bliss" comes from?
That we shouldn't seek out knowledge, but instead should just remain blissfully ignorant in hopes that we might have longer-life instead?

Not try to understand it, but just be content with it as is?

I think you may have stumbled upon the root conflict between science (seeking knowledge) and religion (content with not knowing).
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. You read carelessly: if the text said "Tree of Knowledge," perhaps
your comment would make sense; but it was not the fruit of some "Tree of Knowledge" that is forbidden in the tale -- it was the fruit of the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil," which seems a rather different thing

You might, I suppose, ask What is the difference? And, truth be told, I cannot say exactly what the text contemplates, beyond that it clearly does contemplate the possibility of varieties of knowledge we do not want to obtain. Surely, in seeking knowledge, we do not wish to learn everything: there are varieties of knowledge that uplift us, and there are varieties of knowledge that degrade us
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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-25-10 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Okay, but how do we know good knowledge from bad knowledge if we don't try to learn?
Sure, some of it may be displeasing to us, but isn't it better to have known than not known?

I mean, surely an "omniscient" God knew Adam and Eve would try to eat the forbidden fruit. Is it not our curious nature?

Why then is this "omnibenevolent" God punishing men for all eternity because of that inevitable choice?

I just can't wrap my head around an omniscient deity being also omnibenevolent the way most Christians describe.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-25-10 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. I suspect anyone with a conscience can imagine things they don't want to learn about
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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-25-10 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Such as...?
I mean, the only thing I can think of off the top of my head that someone might not want to know about is if something bad happened to a loved one.

Imagine if a wife was raped, or a child was molested. Sure, such knowledge would hurt in the short-term, but if it meant finding out and bringing the perpetrator to justice, wouldn't even such 'bad' knowledge be better to know than to not know? Would you rather NOT know that something bad happened to a loved one? Would that make it any better?

I just can't think of a situation where having more knowledge, in and of itself, would be a net negative.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-10 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. *sigh*
We currently have, for example, various rules governing research on human subjects; and most of us do not regard such rules as ridiculous restrictions on our desire for "knowledge," but rather as a reasonable ethical wall blocking off a spectrum of behaviors that, at the extreme, seem motivated by only sadistic curiosity and are indistinguishable from mere psychopathic brutality. I'll say again that anyone with a conscience can easily imagine kinds of knowledge that we could seek but that would degrade us if we did actually seek them
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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-10 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Ok, fair enough.
So certain research on human subjects might not be advisable. But is it the knowledge gained from such research that isn't useful, or is it just the MEANS of obtaining such knowledge that is bad? I think most of us would agree that we shouldn't torture people to try to get information out of them. But is the actual knowledge itself, not good and useful? If it saves lives?

I'm not saying the ends should justify the means, but you seem to be arguing that the means ARE the ends.

Back to the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, the only way Adam and Eve could gain knowledge was by the MEANS of eating the fruit. But would the knowledge in and of itself have necessarily been bad if the MEANS weren't prohibited by God? I mean, back to my torture example, there are other ways to gain knowledge from a terrorist suspect without resorting to evil means... persuasion, for example. In your example, we can research on animals or humans who volunteer their organs after they die. But God offered no other way for Adam and Eve to gain knowledge. Did he really expect them to remain blissfully ignorant with no other "good" means of obtaining knowledge? Even when he programmed them with such curiosity? Just seems kind of strange that a "just" God wouldn't have given them any other outlet to fulfill their curiosity and increase their knowledge without offending him.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-10 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. My point is not simply that there be illegitimate ways of obtaining
knowledge we might reasonably want to have, but further -- that there really are forms of knowledge that we do not want to have at all, kinds of knowledge that are very degrading and very far from being innocent

Since I have no idea who might read my internet posts, or what ideas I might give them, I really have no inclination to elaborate further: I've pointed in a certain direction, and I'm reasonably confident that anyone who has both an imagination and a conscience can figure out reasonably well what I am saying here
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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Okay, I think I see what you're getting at.
For example, "gruesome" or "obscene" pornography for example? Snuff films. Kiddie porn. Things of that nature?

I guess that would be one kind of knowledge most people wouldn't want to know about.

But is knowledge of them necessarily bad though? I mean, law enforcement uses such knowledge to try to identify victims and track down the perpetrators. It just seems like knowledge in and of itself isn't "good" or "bad", it just depends on what you do with it and how its obtained that determines whether or not it is "good" or "evil."

It just seems so subjective to me, depending on the context.
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