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How to disprove God's existence, and Hawking's postulation...

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Cleobulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 03:09 PM
Original message
How to disprove God's existence, and Hawking's postulation...
on the non-existence of a Creator God.

First off, as always, the burden of proof is on the person making the positive claim of God's existence. A negative can't be disproven, unless it is logically inconsistent or there is evidence that contradicts specific attributes of such a being.

The Christian/Jewish/Muslim God, for example, is described in its respective holy texts as all-knowing(past, present, and future), all-powerful(can do anything), all-good and intervenes in the processes of the Universe(created it, answers prayers, performs miracles). This being is also described as having always been, and has existed and will exist for eternity.

There are problems with this version of deity, of course, some of them arguments that even Greek Philosophers postulated 2 thousand plus years ago. The problem of evil is the most common of these inconsistencies, if God is all-powerful and good, then why is their suffering in the world? Either he's not all good, which makes him either malevolent or apathetic to suffering or he's not all-powerful, in which case, why call him God? The argument of free will is usually invoked in this case, but it doesn't explain natural disasters, earthquakes, floods, wildfires, volcanic eruptions, plagues, etc. have nothing to do with free will, yet they all happen, according to natural processes without evidence that a God intervenes to protect it's followers.

Then there's the more abstract arguments, can an all-powerful God create a rock he can't lift? If not, then he's not all powerful, if so, then he's also not all powerful, and again, in that case, why call him God? A God that is all-knowing knows the future, even if its all possible futures, such a God is limited by those possibilities they already know, there's is nothing they don't know, and hence this God has no free will, which is predicated on not knowing everything. Again, this makes him no longer all-powerful, because there are limits on what this being can do, so again, why call him God?

Then there's the problem of intervention itself, there's no evidence for it, either in the past, or the present, God is attributed to have performed miracles, but again, no proof has been put forward for this that can't be explained in a way that doesn't violate natural processes. A cancer survivor who goes into remission is just that, no need to invoke God in that situation, when cancers have been known to go into remission quite a few times.

Some theists will then redefine God, but they encounter problems, because this God wouldn't be the God of the Bible, Torah, or Quran, but rather a God of the Deists, the First Cause. Again, this has problems, the first being where and when did this God come into being, and who created it? This God can't be all-good, for they don't intervene in the Universe, they are apathetic, and the other problems from above still exist for this being.

Then there are the Other Gods, the Gods of both old and more recent belief, Gods of mortality, some of malevolence and Gods of limits. Polytheistic Gods, Pantheistic, Animist, and other types of faith. These all have the same problem where did they come from, what evidence is there for their existence, and more importantly, why call them gods at all? A pantheistic God, a God that is literally everything can't do anything, might as well rename it matter and energy, for there is no difference between the two. The others are sometimes described as products of, rather than creators of the universe, old time superheros and supervillians, in other words. Beings of supernatural power, but not really Gods(except for Magneto, he controls electromagnetism for crying out loud!).

Hawking's postulation is that if there is evidence to back it up, our Universe never needed a first cause, a creator, at all, he postulated even in his famous book, a Brief History of Time, that even if God existed, he didn't have a choice as to when or in what matter the Universe was created. I think the key here is this, the firestorm that his statements made isn't so much the boldness of them, which is bold, but rather marks where theists put an invisible line in the sand for science to go. Science has been shrinking God for years, and now the First Cause, the last refuge, is being threatened by knowledge, and this cannot abide. For many decades now, science hasn't been able to explain what happened those first few seconds or so of the Universe's existence, science simply didn't have suitable theories to explain what happened, everything after those few seconds, yes, but not before that, to point zero of space and time. Now it seems on the cusp of that discovery, and now theists are scared.

What I find interesting about this is, where does faith come in? Why do you need science to strengthen it? Faith requires no evidence, if M-theory or some alternative does given a suitable explanation for the beginning of the Universe without the need for a First Cause, the nature of faith won't change, hell, for some reason I cannot fathom, many people's faith is strengthened more in the face of contrary evidence rather than no evidence at all. Look to the creationists, ignorant though they are, their faith rarely wavers in the face of contrary evidence, rather it is strengthened. So to those with faith I say, ignore Hawking, he's dealing with the real world, you aren't, never have been, so don't worry about it.
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Yeshuah Ben Joseph Donating Member (763 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. .....
:boring:
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I thought you only rested on Saturdays.
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Yeshuah Ben Joseph Donating Member (763 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Just a little power nap
It usually happens when I read long boring postulations on why somebody thinks I don't exist. ;)
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. exactly. nt
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Speck Tater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
5. When are people going to realize that...
1) The non-existence of God or gods cannot be proven.
2) The existence of God or gods cannot be proven.
3) You can't even begin to enumerate evidence for or against the existence of God or gods until you specify, in precise detail, exactly what "god" means, otherwise you are trying to prove or disprove something which you haven't even defined.

It follows that there is no point whatsoever in trying to prove or disprove the existence or non-existence of God or gods. Any discussion on the matter, beyond saying "We don't know and we cannot know" is a complete waste of time. The position of the strong agnostic, that we cannot know, and we are not justified in believing in the existence or in believing in the non-existence of God or gods, is the only rational and defensible position.

The only rational reaction to the whole issue is indifference. If we cannot know, it is because there is no measurable or discernible effect on the real world due to the existence or non-existence of God or gods, and since it has no effect either way on the real world, indifference to the issue is the only justifiable stance. Enthusiastic defense of one extreme position or the other is just a form of neurotic mania. And that applies to the True Believers and and Militant Atheists alike.

The True Believers are like those who say that Batman could beat Superman in a fair fight and the Atheists are like those who say Superman could beat Batman in a fair fight. They are both defending unprovable comic book fantasies that are disconnected from reality. Neither position is defensible, so just shut the hell up and get over it.

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dimbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Certainly a fair question, deserves an answer. Answer:
never.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Pretty easy answers for me
1) Not my claim. I don't believe in any gods. Shouldn't have to worry about this one.
2) Not my claim. Those that do believe in gods have this burden of proof if they are going to do anything but keep their god to themselves and like-minded people. Once they talk to me about it, they have the burden of proof.
3) Not my claim. If someone brings discussion of their god out to me, then they need to define it. If they don't, I will do my best to find a definition.

So you are saying that everyone be agnostic? And you do know that you can be an agnostic atheist and agnostic theist, right?

I will go with indifference when the religious stop shoving their religion down my throat.

Stop using the term Militant Atheists. It's a strawman.

Your last analogy is wrong. Theists are those saying Batman could beat Superman. Atheists are those saying that they are both fictional characters so who gives a shit (to which the theists say we are being mean and bigoted).
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EvolveOrConvolve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. I don't think you have a correct understanding of the actual definition of "atheism"
For most of us, it's simply a lack of a belief in a higher power/deity. That's far different from actively believing that there is no higher power/deity.

And please, don't use the term "militant atheist" (or "fundamentalist atheist", etc) - it's a pejorative used to attack rather than describe. Thanks.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #5
16. What is enthusiastic defense of indifference then?
Edited on Thu Oct-14-10 10:34 AM by BurtWorm
:popcorn:
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Speck Tater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Temporary insanity. nt
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
6. Better look into the scientific method.....
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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
7. Faith is the cheapest commodity in the world.
Whether one calls it self delusion, self aggrandizement, willful ignorance or pure ego, faith is a creation of man that does nothing but reward continued ignorance in the face of evidence.

It's a huge bit of unearned self-importance, set as a balance against the self-loathing that all religions demand.
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
8. Well, so much for God. I can now see billions abandoning their faith around the globe.
But then, maybe not.

Now to disprove that love exists since the burden of proof is on the person who claims it does.
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Cleobulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. That's idiotic, Love can be detected, both directly and indirectly...
love exists, its an emotion, a response to stimuli and something that can be directly experienced, indirectly observed, and the electro-chemical process that creates the emotion can be measured using medical instruments. Can the same be said of God?
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. My guess is that billions of people also believe that to claim there is no God is idiotic as well.
Good luck with that line of thought because it will never work to purge the planet of the belief in a god although some are evangelical about their unbelief in a deity.
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darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Your guess?
Well then perhaps you could guess at whether or not those billions have proof?

Your analogy has been shown as a failure. Don't try to use it now to make some overgeneralized claim in defense of your irrationality.
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 05:45 AM
Response to Original message
14. Pierre Simon LaPlace said the same thing a couple of centuries ago.
Edited on Thu Oct-14-10 05:46 AM by Manifestor_of_Light
He showed Napoleon an orrery, a crankable model of the solar system. Napoleon said, "It doesn't have a God in it" and LaPlace told him it doesn't need a God.

LaPlace wrote a five volume treatise on "Celestial Mechanics" between 1799 and 1825.


The wonders of the universe don't need a god.

And yes the default position is the negative, that there is no god.

On edit: Christopher Hitchens mentions this anecdote very briefly in one of his YouTube debates.



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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Those darned new atheists... n/t
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