"God" vs "No God" - does it really matter???

[cbdo2007]

Really I can't think of a more useless argument than whether or not God exists. Who cares??

So you believe in God, good for you.

So you don't believe in God, good for you too.

There isn't anything that can be gained or lost from either believing that God exists or believing that God doesn't exist, and neither side can prove the other one wrong, so what's the point?

[sudopod]

1. "There isn't anything that can be gained or lost..."

:3

[HeresyLives]

2. Well since the belief in a god,

has killed millions in our history, and continues to do so, I'd say it was rather an important point.

[cbdo2007]

5. You think if no one believed in God that all the killing would stop?

[HeresyLives]

7. Religion gives people an enormous number of reasons

for killing, so it would eliminate all of those.

As to our other reasons, and mostly they come down to resources, we'll have to learn to see ourselves as one world, with only one race....humans.

[cbdo2007]

15. This is due more to how someone believes in God rather than the belief itself.

I can't think of any reasons why believing in God gives someone a reason to kill someone else, any more than us all living as one world, as the human race, gives someone a reason to kill someone else.

[HeresyLives]

16. That's just one of the many religious arguments

that leads to killing. LOL

'MY god is the real one, MY god is the only true belief, therefore what you believe in a lot of nonsense and I'm the only 'real ______fill in the blank with the name of any religion'

There IS no one belief. Everybody has a variation. So they have to kill the others for heresy apparently.

I said we have to see ourselves as one world and one race....I didn't say THAT would give us a reason for killing.

[RaleighNCDUer]

9. Of course not - but the fighting over THAT issue would stop.

Humans will always have excuses for fighting - we don't need to make up fairy stories to fight over as well.

[whathehell]

57. "Fairy Stories"

My Ass!

Your post is ironic in the extreme as one "excuse for fighting" is doing what you are doing right now!...That is, mistaking your "opinion" for Absolute Reality and dismissing, with as MUCH disrespect as possible, everyone else's.

You, RaleighNCDuer, are doing precisely what you criticize Theists for and that is pushing your Non-belief on others via insult and condescension.

"Atheists "don't prosylytize" ...Riiiighht!...You are, in fact, the ONLY ones on this board "fighting about that issue".

This type of Shit is EXACTLY why I, and many others here, would like to "hide" entire forums.

I've never seen such an unpleasant, disrespectful group as the "fuck you if you're not an atheist" crowd here.

If this is what atheism does to people, it's not surprising that you're still a minority.:eyes:

[darkstar3]

58. Hmm...now let's see, which of these two posts seems more hateful? n/t

[Goblinmonger]

59. Is somebody holding a gun to your head making you come in R/T?

Cause that must suck.

And the tone of your post is probably the most hateful and angry on this thread.

When has anyone ever said "fuck you if you're not atheist"? Usually, that perception comes from the fact that we atheists are actually vocal on here when in real life you aren't faced with that so you think we are rude.

Why does religion get a pass on DU in your mind? Why can every other issue be discussed but not religion?

[whathehell]

24. Please...Greed, Ego, Rage, Power lust and other human traits have "killed millions" too...

and they don't even come with a "thou shalt not kill" precept.:eyes:

[HeresyLives]

25. And where do those emotions come from?

[whathehell]

42. I don't know, Heresy!...Where do YOU think they come from?

[boobooday]

3. It matters a lot to some who believe in God

And would dictate that we all follow their religious prescriptions.

To me personally, it doesn't matter, but it has a huge influence on our discourse and our society as a whole.

[Mugweed]

4. It's the constant push of religious ideas into everyday life

I get tired of seeing our government start the day with a prayer. I get tired of people who demand that the religious belief of intelligent design be taught next to the scientific theory of evolution. I get tired of "in god we trust" or "one nation, under god". I get tired of establishments that have different hours or are closed altogether for Sunday. I get tired of other peoples' religious beliefs interfering with my attempt to live a life free of dogma. Keep it in the church.

[cbdo2007]

13. Whether ideas are "religious" or not....people will always push their ideas

on other people, even if it was proven there is no God.

That's the nature of humans and building a society, is that people will have to base the rules on something. A belief in God is no worse than if someone were to push any ideas on you, especially if it makes you upset when people close a business on Sunday for whatever reason they choose.

[HeresyLives]

19. Ideas are good, killing for them is not.

No, I don't think that's the 'nature' of humans...that in itself is a religious idea, that we are somehow hard-wired for killing.

We are not. Humans have always been inclined to cooperate more than kill...and cooperation has helped us survive...wars certainly haven't.

Religion unites a tribe...makes them different that that other tribe...and of course, better. Religion causes division, not unity....

[tama]

67. Tribal ways

Shamanhood and animistic world view - and experience - need not to be defined as 'religion' in anthropology and there are good reasons not to, as the Western concept of "religion" is not really universal but culturally dependent, as all concepts are.

Shamanhood and animism unite tribal ways with the natural environment into undivided interdependent whole - if we have the humility to ask remaining native peoples themselves how they experience the world instead of claiming always to "know better" with dearly held Western culturally conditioned prejudicies.

There is beauty in difference and uniqueness that does not mean division. "Civilizing" native tribes by exterminating them and/or homogenizing them into parts of Western globalizedd mass society obviously does not find beauty in difference and uniqueness. Such forced "unity" is very divisive indeed and there are better ways of finding peace and harmony as I'm sure you agree.

[Jim__]

70. Chimpanzees have "wars" very similar to the wars of "primitive" people.

Humans have always been inclined to cooperate more than kill...and cooperation has helped us survive...wars certainly haven't.

Humans (like chimps) cooperate in-group, tend to fight out-of-group.

Religion unites a tribe...makes them different that that other tribe...and of course, better. Religion causes division, not unity

Not-my-tribe is other-tribe. Other-tribes on my territory are a threat.

[tama]

72. Bono-bonos hump constantly, make love not war

Not-my-tribe is other tribe. Other-tribes in our land are best presumed friends that we can learn from and exchange experiences so let's first offer them hospitability - intertribe sex could also be fun and valuable. My-tribe gives Columbus presents. OK, that other-tribe didn't treat my-tribe well, but that is no reason to presume that all other-tribes would be as insane as that tribe.

[Jim__]

73. Obviously, today, we get along with other "tribes."

But, the indications are that vary early-on, before migrations out of Africa, humans were fighting each other - i.e. war is very deeply embedded in our species.

[tama]

75. Obviously, you don't

Your tribe still keeps on exterminating other-tribes and stealing and destroying their land and way of life for consumerist purposes like no other tribe before. Your tribe has the biggest war machine ever on Earth, your tribe is waging war as we speak, your tribe is ruled by your bloodthirsty war god whose names are "Military-Industrial Complex" and "Profit-Margin" etc.

We "other-tribes" know your tribe and how it behaves, you don't fool us anymore. We can't make war against your tribe and don't want to, we cant make your tribe leave other-tribes in peace, what we can do is speak with you and wish that you listen. And wish you well.

[Jim__]

76. Yes, humanity is still warlike.

"Other-tribes" keep on killing each other too - not just "my-tribe". Look at the news, look at history.

[tama]

77. Not all humanity

and not just humanity. Ants make also war.

There are tribes that make no war, like Kalahari Bushmen, tribes that make only sport-like ritual war etc., many kinds of tribes. No doubt war has some purpose, something to be learned from. Maybe the lesson or experiment is to learn how not to make war, but can't say I know.

[BurtWorm]

20. It's a good thing when people who believe in god are given pause.

It's not a good thing when the dominant culture behaves as though the god issue is settled in favor of there being a god. It's better if the dominant culture behaves as though the issue is unsettled and unsettlable. Until then, it's necessary for atheists to speak up and challenge the notion that there is a god who cares about us and our culture.

[cbdo2007]

23. Why challenge the notion that there is a god.....

rather than the believers ability to determine right from wrong regardless of their beliefs? Or their interpretation of their god's intent?

[BurtWorm]

33. god comes with a lot of baggage, in case you haven't noticed.

Just to take one of the most ostensibly harmless bits of god-baggage: the oath. Why should atheists have to swear on a Bible, or swear to god before the law that their word is true? Of course it's no big deal in some respects, but when you get right down to it, it's downright discriminatory.

It bugs me when people ask questions like yours and it turns out they're really asking, "Why don't you atheists fuck off?" Why don't theists go fuck off?

[cbdo2007]

36. What makes you think I'm asking atheists to fuck off???!?!?

Good grief...

Again, your complaint about the oath is not something relevant to the actual belief in God, but rather to our society and governments use of the oath to "validate" someone's moral authority, when historically they can blatantly see that someone swearing on the Bible does not have a positive or negative effect on their actions, in the same way that their belief in God has no effect on their actions.

That's my point...whether someone is an atheist or a theist...they are still going to do good things and they are going to do bad things. Neither the belief in god or the belief that there is no god has an effect on how someone lives their life.

[BurtWorm]

38. What makes you think I was suggesting your question was a hidden fuck off to atheists.

I was just stating that I get bugged by that phenomenon. Maybe you've seen these threads that pretend to be even-handed in their scolding?

To answer your question, the god question, I agree, is a pointless one to debate about. But I disagree that the god-baggage question is. That one has much greater bearing on our individual lives than the pseudo-profound god question.

[RaleighNCDUer]

6. When a basic precept of the believers is to force their will on the unbelievers,

it matters.

It's not their god I have a problem with - it's their god's followers who scare me.

EDIT: Put it this way - having that discussion with a Buddhist provokes an interesting discussion. Having that discussion with any of a number of adherents of proselytizing faiths - principally christianity and islam - provokes discrimination, murder and war. They believe their god demands that everyone believes as they do, and since most people WON'T believe as they do it is the source of endless conflict. And these conflicts are NEVER provoked by the unbelievers.

[Mojambo]

8. I consider myself a solid apatheist when unprovoked

When provoked by the religiously overzealous I become militantly atheist.

[RaleighNCDUer]

12. Apatheist - I like it.

That was me - for years at a time I would give no thought to religion at all, and it impinged on my consciousness no more that curling did. I knew it was there, but it had no impact on me at all.

Then I moved to the bible belt, where one the first things people ask is 'What church do you attend?'

After 15 years, it makes me kinda twitchy.

[Gman]

10. Spoken like a true agnostic

[Birthmark]

11. Yes, what difference can it possibly make...

...that 3/4ths of our fellow citizens believe in a magic sky being that will rescue them from their mistakes? I'm sure they'll act wisely anyway. :sarcasm:

[cbdo2007]

18. You imply that the 1/4th of people who don't believe in the magic sky being will

always act wisely anyway as well.

So can we at least agree that a belief or no belief in God, has little bearing over someone's ability to act wisely?

[Birthmark]

30. No, you inferred that.

My implication -maybe- was that those who believe in a god are willing to believe in magic. From that it follows that non-believers have one area at least where they disbelieve magic. That's hopeful...as far as it goes anyway. But there are all manner of other irrational beliefs in which they may indulge --and many do.

[whathehell]

22. Oh, screw the "magic sky"

shit and EDUCATE yourself on the vastly differing concepts which make up the world's religions...Most non-atheists do NOT belive in a "sky god":eyes:

Really...Your ignorance and bitterness spilleth over into insulting, tired cliches.

Welcome to my ignore list.

[dmallind]

32. Actually the J and E traditions derived from a sky god and a war god

One from the Canaanites and one from the Edomites.

Whether people believe in such a being now is debateable, and I suspect you'd find it embarrassing to know how many believers really DO believe in an "up there" rather than a more ineffable and transcendent deity.

[whathehell]

47. Yeah, dude...and our human "derviations" are from Apes..

But some of us have EVOLVED since then...Hello?

I don't find a thing "embarrassing"!...Like the OP, I'm simply not that "invested" in the whole concept since I'm agnostic, meaning "I don't know"...As one DUer put it "The people who talk MOST about religion here are atheists"!


Buh Bye!:hi:

[dmallind]

52. So origins are unimportant? Beliefs of believers are unimportant?

So many have not evolved, as any survey on detailed opinions about the nature of God and heaven will tell you.

[Birthmark]

54. That's incorrect.

Humans and apes evolved from the same ancestor.

[Birthmark]

35. Keep telling yourself that.

Your defensiveness is amusing.

[whathehell]

50. As is your ignorance.

You just keep telling yourself it's that Big Ole' Bad Religion!

Honey, I'm sorry for whatever pain religion may have caused you, but no one needs to "keep telling themselves" about the obvious flaws in human nature...Unless you're very young or very unschooled.

[Birthmark]

53. Oh, sweetie, you disappoint me!

That putting me ignore stuff was nothing but *drama*?! You seem to make my point.

I don't know where you got the "Big Ole' Bad Religion" stuff. Musta fell from the sky, because it sure wasn't in my post.

The hilarious thing is that I've actually gone fairly easily in this thread. Disproving gods is a walk in the park. ;)

You see, there is in fact something called "God." It is a job title. Humans invented it. That cannot be disputed. However, applicants for that job *can* be disproved, or at least shown to be irrelevant (indistinguishable from Nature, therefore, sliced by Occam's {Ockham's, if you prefer} Razor).

It's just possible that I've studied this subject to some degree, no? :bounce:

[Goblinmonger]

61. Why do you need to keep going to the atheist canards in this discussion

Atheists do not have a god-shaped hole in their heart. We weren't someone injured by religion. I went to a Catholic seminary and have very fond memories of my time there. I am still good friends with a number of my classmates some of whom are priests.

But keep thinking whatever you need to think about why we become atheists so you protect whatever it is you need to protect.

For someone who is bitching so much about broad-brush attacks, you sure like to spout the ignorant chestnuts about atheists.

[whathehell]

44. And you...

just keep telling yourself it's that Big Ole' Bad Religion!

Honey, I'm sorry for whatever pain religion may have caused you, but no one needs to "keep telling themselves" about the obvious flaws in human nature...Unless you're very young or very unschooled.

[Goblinmonger]

60. OK, I'm calling for numbers here.

Certainly the religions of Abraham believe in a sky god, yes? I always thought those religions made up the biggest percentage in the world.

Got any numbers or a link to back you up.

[tama]

69. Let's see

Judaism, Chistianity, Islam. Thats three religions. How many religions are there in the world? By any usual definitions certainly much more than three. So nope, those religions don't make up the biggest percentage.

Or did you mean which world religions have the most followers? ;)

[TZ]

14. Not to me, either

I live my life that way as much as possible. Too bad that some of the zealots can't keep their beliefs to themselves. I'm not a elimated all religion type person. I just think beliefs are personal and should never be pushed on ANYBODY.

[whathehell]

17. There IS something to be gained by believing in an Afterlife....Hope.

The religion haters will no doubt disparage the idea, but, like the existence of God itself, they can't "prove or disprove" it...And it keeps a LOT of people going.

This idea that religion is ONLY a source of evil is stupid..Religion has also been the source of good, engendering MANY charitable endeavors...I mean, effing a..Do you imagine Mother Theresa to have been a bad sort?...In addition, it's given us things like the Ten Commandments, whose precepts, at least those which prescribe "loving your neighbor" and not killing or stealing from him/her provide a decent ethical guide.

The degree to which religion is good or bad probably reflects that same duality in human nature.

..Greed, selfishness, revenge -- all those impulses live on nicely minus religion.

[HeresyLives]

21. Hope doesn't come from a fairy tale.

We don't know what happens aftr death, so there is no reason to feel either good or bad about it.

And yes, Mother Theresa was a bad sort.

The ten commandments are dreadful, and only one of many moral set of rules in the world.

Surely you don't need fairytales to act in a moral way?

[cbdo2007]

28. Then how can you explain fairy tales giving people hope?

You can't just say, "Hope doesn't come from a fairy tale" because it isn't your decision where people get their hope from. It's obviously a true statement that people HAVE gotten hope from fairy tales, so this just doesn't make sense.

And...what about the ten commandments are more dreadful than the other moral sets of rules in the world?

[HeresyLives]

29. Fairy tales are for children.

So presumably many humans haven't yet matured.

Gods are a bloodthirsty lot, so any one that starts off by saying 'I am a jealous god' is dangerous. No other gods, no swearing...sounds like a petty tyrant to me. And 'coveting' is the basis of the consumer society...the only way we get ahead economically.

Reason alone would tell you not to lie, steal or kill. Every moral code in the world has them, so presumably people figured that much out, long time ago.

[tama]

68. Huge generalization

Not all gods are bloodthirsty - godforms like the military-industrial complex certainly are bloodthirsty by their make-up and other gods of war by definition, but great majority of gods are nice and kind. Maybe the bloodthirsty gods need our help to feel and act less bloodthirsty and start behaving better...?

I'm an adult and now reading a book about fairy tales among many other things, what people have actually told about their contacts with fairy folks (in cultures that interprete the beings encountered as fairies, obviously). What makes them very interesting are the many striking crosscultural similarities between fairy tales, shamanistic art, experiences interpreted as UFO abductions and Western scientific studies of trance experiences with psychadelics.

Telling that adults should not read fairy tales - and/or use psychadelics to meet "fairies" and what not - sounds to me like another petty tyrant godform being channelled. Or maybe it's the same old god of power and greed that goes by many names, now manifesting in form of globalized capitalism and ideology of perpetual growth. Growing is what children do, mature beings stop growing in material size but can and do continue spiritual growth.

[whathehell]

41. Sorry, atheists are still in a minority, so most don't accept that premise!

You may not know what happens after death, but a LOT of people who have been clinically dead have ideas...If you've not "been there", I'd re-consider disputing them.

Mother Theresa a Bad Sort??...Oh, well...You probably find the people of India to be a Stupid Sort, since they clearly felt otherwise, giving her a monumental state funeral and considering giving her the title "Mahatma", which means "great soul".

You need not tell me about the "many sets of rules in the world" dear..I've studied world religions and all manner of ethical systems.

So precepts against killing and stealing are "terrible"?...Or is it just that "love your neighbor" thing you don't like?...Yes, indeed, that's some bad stuff there. eyes:

BTW, I used the Ten Commandments because their most relevant to our culture AND the crank atheists here seem predisposed to equate Right Wing Christianity with ALL religion, that being the only one they know of even though it's RARELY, if ever, reflected on this board.

Have a nice one, dear...This is the Big Buh bye.:hi:

[Goblinmonger]

64. Nice fallacy

Got anything else to back yourself up?

[tama]

71. How do you know?

"Hope doesn't come from a fairy tale."
That is obviously unproven and counterfactual. Fairy tales about kind and wise beings in fairylands/spirit worlds/other dimensions willing to help and teach in times of trouble do give cause for hope to people who take such fairy tales seriously and/or are in contact with spiritworlds.

Western culture is exception in the regard that it is probably the only culture in world that actively denies the reality of spiritworlds, when most natural assumption is that if the experiences of spiritworlds feel real - and deeply meaningfull - then so they are. As for narrow definitions of what is real and what is not, reality has bothersome habit of defining them... :)

[dmallind]

34. Actually yes -Mother Theresa was a cruel tyrant

who believed unnecessary suffering was good. She let thousands suffer agony that could have been prevented. That said sure religion can give hope, agreed. However not ONLY religion can give hope, nor is it necessary to be religious to be charitable (at least 3 of the top 5 philanthropists are nonbelievers, as was the organizer of the world's single most successful charitable event).

The human to human precepts in the Decalogue all predate it by the way. Earlier codes outlawed stealing, murder, etc.

[whathehell]

49. So you think the Indians -- who knew her best...Were stupid?..wrong?

What?

BTW, I sense a subtext here that I must address: I do NOT think it's necessary to be a believer to be a "good person".

I have atheists in my life who are fine people...We get along, because in addition to being ethical, they are also MATURE and respectful in that, unlike so many here, they don't feel the need to lash out and insult believers at every turn....Got that?

[dmallind]

55. Nope - just talking about the issue at hand

Religion certainly CAN inspire charity, and certainly CAN give hope to adherents. I can't imagine anyone lasting too long trying to say otherwise when we have many many examples of both.

My point is that religion is not necessary for those things, just as yours seems to be that it is not the only cause for war and bigotry etc (which I certainly agree with too). So whether individuals derive hope abnd charity from religion or from secular ethics or just kneejerk response to conditioning as a child, is largely immaterial.

That does not mean people who do good things for the sajke of religion are uniformly good. Many Indians criticize Mother Theresa as I have done, and with much more first hand data. She raised a good deal of money and attention for poverty-stricken Indians, driven at least in great part by her faith. All good. She deliberately chose to let many of them suffer horrible pain unnecessarily for the same reason, believing suffering brought them closer to Christ. All bad. Both for the sake of religion. It can inspire both. Got that?

[YankeyMCC]

40. Greed, selfishness and revenge live on

in all of use regardless of religion.

I don't argue that a person can find hope in a belief in gods or afterlife. Perhaps they can I can only speak to my own experience that I never found hope there and have found hope in the here and now and discarding any concern about gods or afterlife.

[stray cat]

26. Self-righteousness by both sides?

[HeresyLives]

27. No, self-defence.

You need it around religious people.

They use stakes ya know.

[tama]

66. Curiously

The witch hunt mass hysteria coincided with passage from Medieval times to Modern time of "rational Enlightment".
"There were early trials in the 15th and early 16th centuries, but then the witch scare went into decline, before becoming a big issue again and peaking in the 17th century."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Modern_European_witchcraft_trials

Child or rational enlightment and ideologically materialistic and atheistic technocracy, Soviet Union mass murdered shamans of native peoples. Global capitalism "scientifically" prohibits people under its control from using psychadelic substances that open gates to contacts with beings of spiritworld and use other drugs for psychocontrol, to "normalize" people who have spontaneous experiences of contacts with spirit worlds (including "UFO abductions" etc.).

What is going on, besides the old game of pot and kettle?

[dmallind]

31. If it were just that discussion, then it would only matter to those who answer "yes"

Unfortunately in real life we need to have discussions about what this putative deity seems to encourage people to enact into laws gocverning all of us. We have to have discussions about why people who answer differently from the majority are not alklowed to serve in office in several state constitutions, and are the most politically despised and socially mistrusted of all groups.

So it matters a bit more that the basic question should if everyone were reasonable, and could decide for themselves whether there was a god and apply the conclusions only TO themselves.

BTW even you are begging the question, By capitalizing the word and using it as a proper name you are assuming that the existence of only one god is debateable.

[cbdo2007]

43. Wow.....reading a bit too much into my capitalization....

I apologize if that threw you astray, capitalizing God was more of a grammatical assumption than a theist one :) Like talking about the Moon, I never know if I should be capitalizing "Moon" or not so I just do it for the appearance of being intellectual.

[dmallind]

45. A common assumption, but a major difference.

It would be perhaps clearer to work out if you substituted "Allah" in your mind (which after all just means "god" in Arabic). If you wouldn't use Allah (as an English speaker), you should not use big G God.

[cbdo2007]

46. Thanks for the clarification....but that still doesn't help me with the "Moon" :)

Just kidding. I'll take more care on the g front.

[dmallind]

51. Actually same thing (he said knowing full well you don't want an answer!)

If you would use "Deimos" in an analogous sentence about the moons of Mars, use the capital. If you are just talking about generic planetary satellites, go lower case.

But seriously...

No biggy of course - most people are used to guessing what you meant with the big G - but it DOES reveal something about why the question is more important than it at first appears - because using the big G IS such a common assumption in the US, where any mention of A god is assumed to only be relevant to THE big G God of the Bible. Atheists are asumed to hate God quite often for example, whereas really our belifs about the big G are no different from our beliefs about Zeus (how much we care about the intrusion of their respective believers in our lives is of course likely to be different!) and very very little different from Pat Robertson's beliefs about Zeus. It's silly to talk about Pat hating Zeus, and it's silly to talk about me hating big G God, but it's assumed so often.

[damntexdem]

37. I don't know. I'm agnostic about your question.

;-)

[YankeyMCC]

39. Nope

What matters is what people do with the lives they lead.

If a belief in gods is what helps a particular person live a wholesome and happy life then that is good for them.

If a lack of believe in gods takes nothing away from a person's ability to lead a wholesome and happy life then good for them.

What matters is what people do, including what they do when interacting with others, if their beliefs drive them to treat others in a way to cause them suffering that is a problem.

People can debate which beliefs promote wholesome or unwholesome actions, my inclination is that living your life based on what is right in front of you without worrying about an afterlife or judgment of gods leads to making more wholesome choices. But I have that inclination only because it is working for me. It is everyone's responsibility to figure out what works best for them.

[trotsky]

48. The people who fly airplanes into buildings care.

The people who set off bombs at abortion clinics care.

The people wanting to codify their beliefs into U.S. law care.

The people who don't like any of the above things and want to stop religious beliefs from having unwarranted respect and deference in society also care.

If every believer kept their religion to themselves, we'd have no problems with this. But they don't, and that's primarily because the most destructive religions have within their core message the need to either proselytize, convert, and/or kill those who won't convert.

[Jim__]

56. I think it does matter.

In the book The Faith Instinct, Wade talks about why most of the surviving societies in the world have a belief in god. Namely, it helps to unify the society. Also, humanity is a warlike species, and a belief in an after-life (usually associated with a belief in god) makes people more willing to sacrifice their life for their group.

It may be important for matters other than war. For instance, my understanding of why Europe has a large immigrant population is because its birth rate is not high enough to replace workers (different numbers for different countries). I believe that a declining population is a good thing, there are far too many people in the world. However, there is a notable tendency for the immigrant population (generally more religious than the European population) to out reproduce the Europeans, leading to little real benefit to the environment of low population growth, and increased problems with culture clash. In modern societies, there does seem to be some correlation between birth rate and religious belief see, e.g. Factors affecting birth rate.

I think belief in god is related to issues that have to do with the survival of groups and the survival of the human race. We don't have a good understanding of exactly how they are related. The issue deserves to be studied.

[Goblinmonger]

62. If the religious would keep their paws out of my life, I'd be fine with it

But as a teacher I need to rise and listen to a pledge that tells me that we are a nation under god EVERY DAY.

I have to use money EVERY DAY that tells me that I trust in god.

I have to see gay and lesbian friends of mine not have the right to marry because of religion EVERY DAY.

It goes on and on and on.

If people could believe in a god and not feel the need to shove it down my throat, I'd never speak another word of it. Hell, I LONG for that day.

[rug]

63. Only if you believe in God.

The argument is usually about anthropology and politics.

[Odin2005]

65. I find the fact that people beleive in a magical sky daddy troubling.

Adults are not supposed to have imaginary friends.

[tama]

74. Hmm

What would be troubling is not magical sky daddy telling some people not to have imaginary friends, but people taking such advice so seriously that they forbid other peoples of having imaginary friends and if they cannot obey that rule burn them at stake or lock and drug in mental asylum.

[whathehell]

78. I find people who state opinion as Absolute Fact

to be rude and arrogant asshats...and screw the magical sky daddy.:hi:

[whathehell]

79. I find people who can't spell "believe" troubling.

:rofl:

[Odin2005]

80. Oops, I spell that wrong a lot!

[Deep13]

82. That's a more interesting point than one might suppose.

Telling the difference between reality and fantasy is a hallmark of mental maturity. But like so much else in religion, insisting on belief in an impossibility arrests people's intellectual development to the level of children, at least on that point. Further, I don't think the ability to believe the impossible can be adequately compartmentalized to prevent that kind of thinking from leading one astray in other matters.

[Deep13]

81. I respectfully disagree on two points.

First, whether or not god exists is a scientific question which is capable of being proved or disproved, at least in principle. I think that an objective evaluation of the evidence as it presently exists makes god a practical impossibility.

Second, the truth matters. A society governed by divine rules and oversight (or one that pretends to be) is fundamentally different than a society that is not. Most of our basic attitudes and social norms are the result of Christian thinking. Most of those norms are destructive. Further, believers by and large have no live-and-let-live attitude. Even if they do it peacefully, they still want to eliminate all suggestion that their beliefs might not be valid. The next time someone says, "we are all sinners" try telling that person that only believers are sinners because only believers accept the idea of sin. See what kind of a reaction you get. And most believers feel perfectly free to impose their religious prejudices on others. You see, to accept religious values are merely an individual preference is to accept the invalidity of those values in the first place.

[anonymous171]

83. Metaphysics in general is a useless pursuit. nt

[cynatnite]

84. It's a problem for me...

when government is supporting one over the other, when it's being used to make law, and when I'm considered unAmerican for not believing.

There are a few more that's not coming to mind right now, but most of the time I don't care...except in these situations.