Did You See The Recent "Penn & Teller's Bullshit" About Mother Theresa?

[arwalden]

Astounding! I had always thought that most of the "money for the poor" that's been (being) collected by her and the Catholic church wasn't actually being used for the poor, or to help prevent and alleviate their suffering.

Sometimes the show just confirms what I ALREADY knew... and sometimes it TEACHES me something new. For example... in the same episode, I was shocked to learn that Mahatma Gandhi was a racist.

[Modem Butterfly]

1. I knew about Mother T and Gandhi, but not the Dalai Lama

I worked for an IT company that specialized in importing H-1b Tech workers (I know, I know). Many Indians, particularly those from Calcutta, had nothing good to say about Mother Teresa. One guy I knew said that Mother Teresa had "slandered" his city, making Calcutta look like hell on earth when it was really just her "hospice" that looked like that. Another gentleman I knew said that his wife's "ladies club" had attempted to donate bandages and medicines, only to be turned down because Mother T wanted to care for the dying, not heal the sick. Yikes.

[Warpy]

4. The dying got clean sheets and potable water

but they didn't get so much as an aspirin to ease their pain as they died of poverty and neglect.

Did she perform a service caring for the dying, giving them a clean place for the first time in many of their lives? Undoubtedly. Could she have done much more with the donations she was given? You bet your ass she could. Would she have served them better had she told them to follow their consciences on birth control instead of celibate old fools in Rome? You better believe it, but then she might've been out of a job in more ways than one.

Even when you think healing the desperately ill only prolongs their death (as it does even here from time to time), there is no reason why you'd want to encourage the dying to wring every last bit of agony from the final few days of life.

At best, she was a mixed bag. I admire the little she did, but I am disgusted by the things she thought not worthy of doing. Rome will undboubtedly call her a saint because she was obedient to them.

[onager]

2. Great stuff!

I almost fell off the couch when Penn referred to Gandhi as "a racist enema queen."

The info on the Dalai Lama was interesting, too. I couldn't help but notice a really weird and icky tone of voice among the celebs talking about him--almost a form of baby talk, as though they were addressing some Deity itself.

The worst example was Steven Say-GALL blathering about learning Wuv & Peace from the Dalai Lama. Snort! I'd be surprised if Steven Seagal could find Tibet on a map.

But I also noticed Harrison Ford doing the same weird, hushed tone-of-supplication when he introduced the Dolly.

One of these days, I'll take a lot of No-Doze and make it all the way thru Scorsese's movie about His Nibs. Hasn't happened yet, though. Damn thing puts me to sleep every time.

[deacon2]

5. Why delight in slandering great human beings?

I am a fan of Penn & Teller's magic and wit, but their show is as slanted as those people they claim to "debunk." Try reading "How to Practice" by the Dalai Lama, or "Non-Violent Resistance" by Gandhi before you pass final judgement. You might also consider what Gandhi accomplished in India in light of the occupation by the British. That Hollywood sycophants speak in hushed tones about these types of people is to be expected. But to dismiss Moher Teresa, Gandhi and the Dalai Lama and all the remarkable good they have done in the world on the hearsay of two entertainers without your own rigorous study is, to me, intellectually dishonest. These individuals have much more in common with Democratic principles than you may ever know. Why not test the theory and see for yourself?

[Book Lover]

7. May I recommend to you Orwell's Reflections on Ghandi?

Written before Ghandi became a western saint, you will find the balance you're looking for, I think.

http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/898

[shrike]

42. I just skimmed this piece, but what I read was quite fair

Hardly the portrayal of a "gas bag enema." Unless I missed those parts.

[Modem Butterfly]

11. Because they weren't that great?

Gandhi really did do a lot of good. But what exactly have the Dalai Lama and Mother Theresa accomplished?

[Up2Late]

30. You're Joking, Right?

"...what exactly have the Dalai Lama...accomplished?" I'm going to assume you ARE joking, unless you tell me otherwise.

If you are NOT joking, I'll have to assume that you have never read any of his books (or at least not with an open mind), teaching Peace that he himself, has written.

Many of the books that have his name on them, are not actually books he wrote, but accounts of things he has said or taught, during speeches he gave or meetings he had with the author.

Your question is like a non-Christian asking, "What did Jesus accomplish really?"

[Modem Butterfly]

31. Not at all

What has the Dalai Lama accomplished? He's written a few books (with a good bit of help) but how is that different from, say, Susan Powter or Anne Morrow Lindbergh or John Steinbeck?

And I think asking what Jesus accomplished is a really good question.

[beam me up scottie]

32. : )

nt

[trotsky]

33. "asking what Jesus accomplished" - indeed.

* He never wrote anything down, leaving it all to be interpreted and eventually put to paper DECADES after his death, more than enough time for people with their own agendas to put a spin on things.

* When given the chance to inform humanity about the nature of disease, he instead perpetuated primitive thinking by casting disease into pigs, which he then sent over a cliff.

etc., etc.

[Modem Butterfly]

34. Not very nice to those pigs, was it?

I post this in all sincerity: if there were such things as demons, cursing a bunch of innocent pigs with them and driving them off a cliff would be a really shitty thing to do, wouldn't it?

[trotsky]

35. How about cursing a fig tree for not bearing fruit.... OUT OF SEASON!

Yes, all this and more can be had in your savior for the low, low price of your eternal soul! Act now!

[shrike]

43. What about Buddha?

Buddha meditated and the tree began to bear fruit.

[arwalden]

15. "Intellectually Dishonest"?

Oh please. That's so overused that it's lost it's meaning.

Did you even watch it? Or are you just chiming-in with a knee-jerk gut reaction that's based only on the title of the show, its stars, and the subject matter?

If you had watched you would have noticed that Penn & Teller did acknowledge the good things that all have done and their noble causes. Yet you act as if such things don't exist, or that the good makes up for the bad and that it's okay to turn a blind eye to the fraud and deceit.

[carpetbagger]

17. Because the truly good ones rarely get the notoriety.

The saint lives down the street, the holy man works as a landscaper. They'd give their life up for yours or mine in a minute.

[stevebreeze]

24. Penn & Teller are libertarians and when the venture into politics

their bias is as bad as those the claim to debunk.

[Solomon]

38. I agree. Penn and Teller shove a lot of bullshit themselves.

[Gelliebeans]

23. I sent my hubby down

to rent season one and two of P&T's bullshit (like you suggested in A&A forum)and it was already rented (be back in store tomorrow) so we are going to run down early.
Is this the same series?
If it is, I am really looking forward to it.

[salvorhardin]

3. Sounds like a good one

Episode 3x02? I'm downloading it now. I have a lot of criticisms with Penn & Teller's "experts", usually liberally drawn from the Cato Institute pool. However, I really appreciate their uncompromising skepticism of *everything* (except their own "experts).

One of my favorite episodes was where they took on PETA.

[Kolesar]

6. Did P&T talk about the stolen money she got from repuke Charles Keating?

Charles Keating ripped off savings and loan depositors then contributed the money to Mother Theresa. Read the fourth post on this page. It is near the top.
http://www.drini.com/motherteresa/cgi/guestbook_archive9.html

[arwalden]

9. Yes, They Certainly Did Talk About Her Ill-Gotten Money

And someone tried to explain it by saying that the church "had already spent" the money so it couldn't be returned. (As if they are on such a TIGHT budget and didn't have OTHER funds to repay the defrauded investors.)

They also mentioned the money she received from Haiti's Jean-Claude "Baby Doc" Duvalier. Money that was stolen from the people of Haiti and NOT used by the church to benefit the PEOPLE of Haiti. Instead it was used to build a nunnery (or other such nonsense).

[Kolesar]

10. Think of the Ohioans and Haitians forced into poverty by his treachery

Keating was a noted religious-conservative millionaire who meddled in Ohio politics and policy. I recall he had this thing for porn (but I guess none of us are perfect).

[chookie]

8. Sorry to poopoo in your comic book, but...

...all the people cited by Penn and Teller in this "expose" are -- GASP! -- human. Mere mortals.

This is only potentially devastating to people who demand that their heros are perfect, and who can admire only individuals as complex as comic book heroes, and whose favorite colors are black and white, only.

Given the life's work of all these extraordinary individuals, aw, come on -- is it really such a noble endeavor to beat them up because they are imperfect and do not meet the stringent criteria of one-dimensional super heroes?

If you had been laboring under the impression that Gandhi and Mother Theresa and the Dalai Lama had been flawless human beings before Penn and Teller shone the light of the documentary camera upon them, or, before that, the rigors of Christopher Hitchens applied in his scathing expose, you might have found out long ago simply by asking Gandhi, Mother Theresa or the Dalai Lama if they were perfect holy beings. Each would have laughed at you and said that they were nothing but humble mortals, and sinners.

[arwalden]

12. Oh Brother! (Heh-heh!)

<< "Sorry to poopoo in your comic book, but...">>

"Poopoo"? Good grief! :eyes:

<< This is only potentially devastating to people who demand that their heros are perfect, and who can admire only individuals as complex as comic book heroes, and whose favorite colors are black and white, only.>>

And to people who actually CARE about integrity and honesty. And to people who believe that the money they donate to "worthy" causes are actually going to be used to HELP PEOPLE in need.

<< If you had been laboring under the impression that Gandhi and Mother Theresa and the Dalai Lama had been flawless human beings before Penn and Teller shone the light of the documentary camera upon them, or, before that, the rigors of Christopher Hitchens applied in his scathing expose, you might have found out long ago simply by asking Gandhi, Mother Theresa or the Dalai Lama if they were perfect holy beings. Each would have laughed at you and said that they were nothing but humble mortals, and sinners. >>

Oh please! No... I was under no such impression. But many people ARE under that impression. And they offer their support (in all forms) based on such erroneous beliefs.

And there's quite a difference between being an imperfect human being and being crooked, or cruel, or bigoted, or selfish... or who think that human suffering is a good thing.

And now the Catholic church has fast-tracked her route to sainthood. The requisite waiting period has been eliminated and the number of verified "miracles" has been halved. It also appears that the actual standards of what actually qualifies as being "miraculous" has been lowered too.

[Modem Butterfly]

13. That was part of P&T's point, actually

And, as Arwalden said, lots of people think these people were perfect. In fact, the Catholic Church put MT on the fast-track to sainthood.

[grumpy old fart]

14. Mother Teresa squandered the money and good will to no good effect,

except perhaps her vision of the "glory of God". All the millions she took in over the years went to what? Certainly not to the poor and dying of Calcutta for which she is so famously adored.

[tucoramirez2005]

16. Just another reason

for anyone with any religious conviction at all to ignore the mainstream media (and their recommendations on who we should vote for). The media today is so September 10, and four years (and a two Senate and one presidential election) later, they still don't get it.

Mother Theresa converted an impressive number of Indians, considering it was against the law to do so in India.

[arwalden]

18. So Are You Saying That You Don't Like Penn & Teller's Show?

<< The media today is so September 10, and four years (and a two Senate and one presidential election) later, they still don't get it. >>

They don't get WHAT? What's not to get? Besides... Penn & Teller's show isn't really what I'd call "mainstream media" (a phrase that I understood to be generally used to refer to mainstream news sources) ... their show is not a news broadcast.

Did you watch the episode that I was talking about in my original message?

<< Mother Theresa converted an impressive number of Indians, considering it was against the law to do so in India. >>

Impressive? What is it with the Christian compulsion to aggressively and coercively "convert" people? I don't think that converting people is a good thing.

[tucoramirez2005]

20. I made no reference to "news"

and to convert by pure example (aggressive?), since any other means is OUTLAWED IN INDIA, is very impressive.

[beam me up scottie]

19. "Mother Theresa converted an impressive number of Indians"

Yeah, funny how much power you can wield over the sick and the poor when you withhold what they desperately need to live, isn't it?

[tucoramirez2005]

21. What have you done for them?

She looked like she hadn't had a square meal in decades...

Give credit where credit is due; when those Indians come to the US and make their fortune, they still adhere to the faith she demonstrated for them.

[beam me up scottie]

22. Are you being obtuse?

Because I'm having difficulty believing that a member of a progressive board could be this misinformed.

Where do you get your information?

[Modem Butterfly]

28. He pulled it out of his ass

This guy probably doesn't even know any Indian immigrants...

[beam me up scottie]

29. Why, hello Modem, glad to see you.

How are you doing?
If you think that post is a little ... off, check out this one:
http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=20741&mesg_id=20888

[Modem Butterfly]

36. Hey!

We're moving. We sold one house, bought another, and now comes the fun part. We reached the "fuck you" stage yesterday morning at 10 AM, followed by the make-up/inaugerate the new house stage at 12. I figure we'll reach the arson-as-solution stage sometime in the next 48-72 hours.

How's by you?

[beam me up scottie]

37. I hear ya.

I'm planning on moving back to Vermont sometime this year and I'm getting an ulcer just thinking about it.

The A&A group's been too quiet, glad you're back!

[Modem Butterfly]

27. What are you talking about?

The vast majority of Indians coming to the US practice either a variety of Hinduism (there are several varieties) or Islam. There's always been a minority of Xians in India, for hundreds of years before Mother Theresa came along, and seeing as how Mother Theresa confined her "ministry" to the dying, it's doubtful that many of her adherants are over here working...

[Modem Butterfly]

26. "The media today is so September 10"

What does that mean, anyway?

The media still believe we have freedom of speech in this country?

The media refuse to annoit Bush as the Second Coming?

The media draws a distinction between supporting our troops and supporting the Republican government?

[DerekG]

25. This Christian finds nothing admirable about the ethos of Agnes Bojaxhiu

The charity work my church pursues is aimed at *alleviating* pain, not glorifying it; yet, as revealed in Christopher Hitchens' "The Missionary Position," Mother Teresa was averse to providing pain medication and elevator lifts (for the disabled) to her patients. Alas, such "creature comforts" were antagonistic to her perverse devotion to redemptive suffering (an ethos to which I attach poignancy only in respect to the agonies endured by my Lord, Jesus Christ).

The Church needs more Dorothy Days, and fewer Mother Teresas.

[shrike]

39. I would take anything Hitchens writes with a grain of salt

considering his past history and unforgivable pimping of the Iraq war.

[grumpy old fart]

40. You may disagree with his conclusions and opinions about Iraq, but

his facts are usually solid on any given discussion.

[shrike]

41. Ever read his Clinton books?

Do so, and then tell me what you think.