Yay for this forum! :) I have a question....

[OneGrassRoot]

Do you feel it's possible for someone to believe in a literal interpretation of the bible or any other sacred text, yet still be able to engage rationally in a secular world?

Those I know who interpret the bible literally truly see the world, and engage in it, differently than someone such as myself.

They cherry pick what they choose to live by as far as "God's word" -- they don't see it that way, but it's true...how can one live by the words of the Old Testament AND the New Testament? To me, it seems impossible...direct contradictions. Sadly, most fundamentalists prefer the violence of the Old Testament to the kindness of Jesus' words.

But, the fact that they BELIEVE they are living strictly by God's word -- and it's their mission to proselytize and convert others -- seems to preclude rational discussion and choice.

Thoughts?

(sorry if this is an incoherent post...my brain is much after trying to understand a right-wing, evangelical relative tonight)

[aquart]

1. Go dig up President Bartlett's speech about that in West Wing.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. Well, I know that faiths other than Christianity don't tend to proselytize

In Islam, there is a great gap between the fundies and the rest. I know that I feel most uncomfortable when I am around fundamentalists of any persuasion, maybe because their whole demeanor is one of "I am right and YOU are wrong." Doesn't really matter what faith they had, either.

[nosillies]

3. People of faiths other than Christianity proselytize heavily, just no so much in the U.S.

Spend some time on street corners around the world, and you'll see plenty of it.

But you're right, fundies who believe in absolutes are scary, whatever brand of religion or non-religion they practice.

[skepticscott]

13. It's not just fundamentalists

they're just a lot less circumspect about it than most. "We are right and everyone else is wrong" is one of the guiding mantras of the Catholic Church, but they're cagey enough to tiptoe around it most of the time when the cameras are on. Underneath it all, though, that is unalterable Catholic Doctrine.

[metapunditedgy]

4. I think it's dangerous...

to say someone (or some group) is incapable of rationality. There's a very conservative branch of Christians ("theonomists") who, according to one of their leaders (Greg Bahnsen?), believe that *non-Christians* are incapable of rational thought. They think rationality requires a theistic (and perhaps literal-fundamentalist) viewpoint.

Furthermore, a person can be logical but have wacky premises that lead them to be "out of touch."

To be precise, you'd have to define what you mean by "rational."

But I'm very wary of saying people-groups are incapable of rationality... it's a step toward de-humanizing them, and things usually get worse after that.

[Rancid Crabtree]

5. You bet! All one needs to do is avoid those with an edifice complex!

[knitter4democracy]

6. They can even be hyper-rational about many things.

Sure, they can be rational. They have a totally different world-view, of course, but that doesn't mean that they can't be good at math or physics or even philosophy, all of which are based on rational thinking.

This is just my opinion, but I think that one of the problems with Western Christianity (Catholic, Protestant, post-Protestant, etc.) is their belief that everything has to be rational at its root. They have to have an explanation for everything. Read some of the Catholic explanations of transsubstantiation, for example. After awhile, the head spins from the logic. Sure, they make a logical argument, but that doesn't mean that it makes sense. Having studied Nazarene theology in college, I started feeling the same way about them--in their drive to have all the answers, they often resort to an almost hyper-logical argument that ultimately falls apart because it's based on things we really cannot know or prove for certain.

[ZombieHorde]

7. !

Luke 18

22When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

23When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth. 24Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

26Those who heard this asked, "Who then can be saved?"

27Jesus replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."

28Peter said to him, "We have left all we had to follow you!"

29"I tell you the truth," Jesus said to them, "no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life."

Luke 14

25Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. 27And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

[CLANG]

8. My answer is no. If you believe that then you are nuts.

I am going to plead the first, because it's just my damn opinion!O8)

On edit, I asked my son what he felt about religion - he said he was an apatheist. When I asked what that meant he said "it means I don't give a crap about religion"! A chip off the old block!

[Random_Australian]

9. Yeah sure, I got some creationist relatives and they're great and do well.

Engage most of the world just fine, aside from issues of evolution and gay people.

Oh, but they don't proselytize. We just avoid the issues of religion and evolution when I'm around.

[OneGrassRoot]

10. Thank you all very, very much...

your thoughts are SINCERELY appreciated.

:hi:

[John Gauger]

11. No.

The literalists, the people that actually believe what they claim to believe, are not capable of rational thought. They don't engage in the modern, secular society, because as long as they cling to their antiquated faith, they can't.

[metapunditedgy]

12. Strongly disagree.

If you want to say they're not being rational about their religious beliefs, then fine. But many literalists work effectively in the rational world (e.g., software engineering) every day.

If you want to criticize their religious beliefs, or make specific criticism of their everyday lives, that's one thing. But it's simply unjustified to say that they are not rational in the general sense.

[John Gauger]

14. If they take part in the modern world,

then they don't really believe what the bible says. Or at least, they don't act as though they do. They can talk about believing everything in the bible, but if they wear blended fabric, eat food grown with modern agricultural techniques, turn the lights on on Saturday, or save money, they're not really following what the bible says.

[Taverner]

15. Not really - they get hung up on the logical backflips they need to do to stay rational