Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

78% of the US population believe in angels

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Religion/Theology Donate to DU
 
BlueJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 07:57 AM
Original message
78% of the US population believe in angels
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 08:02 AM
Response to Original message
1. So, what is an "angel"
Perhaps many are using a metaphorical view of angels....i.e., those who choose a kinder, benevolent path towards others.....

Goodness, though... If this is what really really upsets you, I fear for your long term sanity...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
67. A pure spirit. Though it may assume another form as one did, for example,
to Samson's mother. I think more commonly they appear as a flash of light.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vanje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #67
84. Flashes of light
Edited on Sat May-31-08 04:40 PM by sheeptramp
You "think more commonly they appear as flashes of light."



All that time I was mistaking angels for distant thunder storms, and drivers adjusting their high beams.

So...When Zeus hurls a lighning bolt, is He throwing an angel?

How can you tell if any given flash of light is an angel , and not a fire-breathing dragon?



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #84
207. "When Zeus hurls a lighning bolt, is He throwing an angel?"
Don't be silly. We all know that Thor is the god of thunder and lightening.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #84
216. Well, when it happened to me (in my early twenties), I would barely have noticed it - if at all, had
Edited on Mon Jun-02-08 05:47 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
it not been accompanied by the most extraordinary feeling of gentleness in the leading arm I was extending to pick up a cat, which had been unnerved by its owner, the very nice, but neurotic lady who ran the boarding house I was staying at in Reading, as she was tying to catch it and pick it up. I would have subliminally, not even consciously, dismissed it as a trick of the light or my eye-sight. But, the cat was so agitated, I was puzzled that it allowed me to approach it, never mind pick it up. Until that inexplicably strong feeling of tenderness affected my arm.

But when I was talking to my wife about it recently, I said I understood gentleness to be an absence of violence, so I was puzzled at how incredibly strong (and beautiful, even sublime) this sensation had been. She more or less laughed/scoffed, and said "Oh, no. It's love." And I realised she was right.

I don't want to go into the whole story again, as I've written about it a few times on the Net, once, I think at Salon.com some time ago now, but I've also seen a fallen angel/devil/demon/fiend, which appeared as a dull glow. I've had some very unpleasant experiences with them, as it happens, on two occasions, in different places and divided by some years, finding myself being throttled by some invisible force. Both when I was in bed, once dozing, the second when fully asleep. Fortunately, on both occasions the strength of the creature seems to be limited as I was able to withstand its pressure by tensing my neck muscles. Actually, I'm inclined to think (rightly or wrongly) that it was the ghost of a bad person, rather than a devil.

But the weird thing about the devil one I mentioned above was that it seemed to move in a straight line. Well that doesn't sound remarkable, does it? Why wouldn't it? Well, that's what I thought when I heard a woman on TV a few months earlier describing her experience of seeing one moving up their staircase. She'd just moved into this old house and had been told about it by the previous occupants.

Anyway, as I mused on it, it occurred to me that since it had not assumed a physical form, as angels can do for our benefit (however ambiguous re the fallen ones), but just appeared as a glow, the tiny lateral and vertical movements that occur when we walk, but which we don't consciously notice, would be absent, and they would move in a kind of geometrically straight line. Weird.

My fear on these occasion has always been very limited, partly because I feel God's presence at all times, but also because they occur so suddenly and so unexpectedly your initial reaction of nascent fear is not allowed to develop, because all your faculties immediately become so totally engaged, if it's a physically-experienced attack on your body or your soul, that you don't have the time to indulge your initial access of fear.

The only two really big things we really need fear are presumption and the loss of our conscience, if we become inured to sin. It ought to go without saying that loving our neighbour is the one indispensable condition of our salvation, athough it nevertheless predicates others.

Presumption is a very serious sin, because it can lead to many others. It's taking God for granted, and thinking he'll always make allowances for you. Remember Christ was prompted in his incarnate, human nature by the Devil to "put God to the test" by jumping from the top of the Temple.

To understand the madness of our Western leadership, our governments and politicians, you only need to read what the John the Evangelist had to say about seeing our neighbour in want, whe we have more than a sufficiency, and not giving him enough for his needs, to realise there is going to be a terrible judgement on a lot of our rulers who have been seduced into thinking their wealth and status are a reflection of their virtue - as our World always resassures them they are, and they don't need to act to help the homeless and poor people generally, who have been increasing in great numbers and will soon rocket.

The deadening of our conscience occurs when we continue to suppress the still, small voice of our conscience until the only fear of God that can remain is that of the devils, themselves, "who believe in God and tremble."

To revert to the physical or physical-seeming attacks - although it's the daylight promptings of the forces of darkness we need fear - I had a really bizarrre such experiecne one night, in the early hours, which actually led to a stupid response on my part that seemed really comical in retrospect.

It is said and perhaps correctly, that when people see angels and devils, it is invariably in terms of the norms of their own culture. Anyway I suddenly woke up, having seen and heard this terrific swoosh of dragon-like wings as what seemed like this great dragon swooped down and seemed to try to physically wrest my soul from within me. Well, being a Catholic and foolish with it, I immediately started casting about in my mind whether I should call to St Michael the Archangel or Saint Joseph, Terror of Demons to help me, but suddenly, there was no time left (all of it was in a split second, I suppose), so I just bellowed out at the top of my voice, "Jesus"! And, instantaneously, it was over - the thing had gone. Now if I'd been a Protestant - they have their uses, you know - I'd have done that in the first place!

The strange thing was that my wife had evidently not heard a thing and was sleeping soundly. And it occurred to me that my loud shout must have been a shout in the spirit - and no mortal would have heard it. But it made me think of the time when I was in the army and there were a number of appearances of ghosts, and one Catholic lad called McDonagh told how he'd heard this sound of the door handles of the rooms in our troop quarters rattling incredibly fast, and getting closer and closer, one door after another... until it came to ours. He said he bellowed out to Tom Reader, another Catholic lad, but neither he nor anyone can have heard it, because no-one woke up. Having turned towards the window, as he felt it approach his bed on his left and lean over him, he tried to swing at it but was kind of paralysed. Nothing happened, but there were so many strange instances of such things - mostly occurring to Catholics, between Ash Wednesday and Trinity Sunday, when, if we haven't been before in the year, we're supposed to go to confession - it would be too labour-intensive to go into it all. I was always being asked, by the Protestant lads too - to get a rosary to put over their bed, which they did.






Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FatDave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #67
124. Those flashes may just be a migraine. (nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
populistdriven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #67
127. Like This?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
174. and itsn't something like only 40% "believe" in evolution?
We are becoming fast an anti-rational nation. When ID starts getting the same footing as science I worry, and I think this number is a reflection of that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #174
198. 42% for nation overall but 43% for Catholics
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
199. There are no definitions in the poll. It's not even clear how the questions were phrased
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MullenBank Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
2. 78% are dopes.
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
3. which is probably more than
Edited on Sat May-31-08 08:07 AM by iamthebandfanman
people who believe in god.

id LIKE to believe in angels.

if youve ever read about the angel hierarchy and the old catholic church, you know its actually very interesting.

i wish the church would bring back more angel theology
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
4. Well, I'm married to one.......n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mithnanthy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
141. Good answer!
Me too!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DFW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #141
163. Me three!
And the ones we wake up next to are the best kind!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
5. no harm in it, I suppose
but it's kinda creepy, too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MedleyMisty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
6. That's what happens when people are ignorant
They look for magical explanations of the world.

Have you ever read Carl Sagan's A Candle in the Dark?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uberllama42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
29. Maybe my favorite book ever
Every child in American should have a copy of his Baloney Detection Kit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
54. From what I gather, our Carl would be an expert on stumbling around in the dark.
But, you know, that title makes the book sound pretty limited and very, very boring.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uberllama42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #54
100. What are you talking about?
Do you know anything about Sagan, or are you just being nasty as some kind of a default?

The book's actual title is Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark. You might find it fascinating if you took a look at it. Like I said above, the Baloney Detection Kit is great reading. I highly recommend it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Night Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
149. The book is...
The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
170. Then you think that anyone/everyone
Then you think that anyone/everyone who belives in angels and/or demons is ignorant, yes? Or did I read your post incorrectly?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
7. Why does that make you angry? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
46. Because these people influence OUR lives.
We have to, in some effect, bow to the will of these people, these grown adults, who believe in magical, benevolent beings who watch over us. Our society is, by and large, fucked. I wonder how we ended up in this awful situation that we're in now. I wonder how the citizenry could be so stupid to allow this to happen. And then I see statistics like this and it begins to make sense. And it pisses me off.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #46
56. That is too sad to even be funny. It is the combination of atheism (both formal
and posing as Christian) together with economic oppression of the less worldly, general population, that has led to this Gadarene plunge into chaos and destruction. And you blame Christianity! You're beyond help.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #56
61. Where did I even mention Christianity?
If my mentioning magical, benevolent creatures put Christianity in your head, then I think that says more about you than me. I know some fairly rational Christians. But none of them believe in magical, invisible creatures. Oddly enough, not all Christians believe the faerie tales of the bible.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #61
143. "I know some fairly rational Christians. But none of them believe in magical, invisible creatures."

Then they aren't Christian. Christianity is a religion. It's a religion that believes in a magical invisible God. If you're going to start claiming that you don't have to believe that God exists to be Christian then I shall declare myself to be a Satanist that doesn't believe in a magical, invisible Satan. And we shall see hoe the argument progresses.

It's pretentious NONSENSE to suppose the Christianity can somehow simply subsume humanism because it... what? Thought of being nice to people FIRST?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #143
164. I was referring to angels and other aspects of Christianity.
Not to god. I'm an agnostic myself. I tend to think that it's unlikely that god exists, but I really don't know. I certainly don't rule it out as a possibility. And I don't think less of Christians (or any other religious group) who believes in god. I think god can be many different things to the people who believe in him/her. Science does not preclude the existence of god. However, science does explain where humans come from, so when religion tries to say that "God created man out of mud, then woman out of the rib of that man" I can confidently cry "bullshit". That's my issue with religion. When it attempts to explain what we already know. That may have been fine 2000 years ago, but it just doesn't work now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uberllama42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #56
90. How is atheism leading to chaos and destruction?
And what's this plunge you're talking about? Maybe my history is poor, but I'm under the impression that we have always had chaos and destruction.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #90
208. "we have always had chaos and destruction"
you are correct, and religion has caused most of it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #56
108. Say what?
:rofl: Thanks for the chuckles.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #56
180. You can't get away with that one...
I like how you qualify "atheism" to mean "both formal and posing as Christianity."

Sorry, since it's based on "faith" (meaning: truth is whatever I like it to be), anyone who "poses" as Christian IS Christian.

The worst elements of this "Gadarene" capitalist existence happen to be among those calling themselves Christian. You don't get to blame that on rationalists. Tough.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #46
57. Well I ended up answering my own question by post 25
Edited on Sat May-31-08 03:19 PM by Uncle Joe
from post 25.

"I believe faith is a literal DNA ingrained requirement for survival. From Al Gore's

"The Assault on Reason", he compares faith, fear and reason to a game of rock, paper and scissors. Reason trumps faith, fear trumps reason and faith trumps fear, and they literally take turns dominating in society.

I believe this goes back to the dawn of time, the ability to reason would give one an advantage to survive but if a predator approached and you thought about it too long, you would get eaten, so fear is ingrained as an instinct to survive as well. But if you stayed afraid all the time, you would never come out of your shelter and so faith was required to overcome fear. If you walked about with blind faith again you would get eaten or walk off a cliff so reason was needed to temper faith, until fear took over again.

I believe this societal and personal conflict-ion is what leads to the emotional distress many people experience from people in different stages."

But to to take it a step further and answer your question, see below.

"I wonder how we ended up in this awful situation that we're in now. I wonder how the citizenry could be so stupid to allow this to happen."

I believe reason turned in to science, philosophy, history, mathematics etc. now all of these things are good but they can and have been abused. What for some is exhilarating breathtaking change or progress, to other people is nothing but destruction of everything they know and are familiar with. So I believe people of faith have similar concerns, "those people with reason influence our lives" and the world is getting worse because of it.

I've mentioned reason and faith, their is an old Norse myth about the mischievous god called Loki who basically lived to cause strife.

I believe the analogy for Loki today would be fear, and the demagogues use this to divide the people of faith from the people of reason. Today that would be Cheney/Bush and this is why we need to engage the people of faith to help restore reason because faith trumps fear. But reason would be wise to be sensitive to the needs of faith, or fear and corruption will continue to reign.

That's my two cents worth anyway. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #46
172. Post hoc ergo prompter hoc
Ahhh...

People believe in things you don't and "ended up in this awful situation that we're in now"

Post hoc ergo prompter hoc.

I'm of the belief that we as humans would easily find additional justifications for our greed, our aggression and our incivility to each other were religion not around...

As a matter of fact, it seems that many acts of inhumanity had nothing to do with religion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #172
173. I never said that irrational beliefs caused ALL of our failings as a society.
But it certainly hurts us, though I'm not sure to what extent.

And what you say is true that many acts of inhumanity had nothing to do with religion. By a good deal many more acts DO have to do with religion. Or at the very least were perpetrated under the veil of religion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #172
209. "many acts of inhumanity had nothing to do with religion"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jmunger Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
8. well yeah
As with many other things, they're believing what they want to believe.

It's amusing at worst. There are more important things to worry about.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
9. so? bangin head on wall cause you INSIST people must believe as you?
Edited on Sat May-31-08 11:35 AM by seabeyond
i think that attitude is an even greater danger, problem in our nation by miles to 78% of nation believes in angels.

of all things to be outraged about. who the fuck cares and what business is it of yours
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Atheism. The New Fundamentalism.
At DU anyway...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Why do you label all of D.U. by one or even a few poster's beliefs? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. it is more than a few and the anger and divide grows bigger and bigger
i can understand and embrace, accept the anger because as a christian i too am angry at the christian and am very verbal in my own assault, albeit respectful assault, against the hate being taught in our christian religion.

BUT... (lol lol i hate a but because that is like saying ignore what i just said)

i have seen such an escalation from atheist of downright scorn and rejection of allowing another to have differing views which is the very hypocrisy they are angered about.

yes.... i have never said the atheist is the new fundamentalist.... but i think it is appropriate

i can love the fundamentalist. i have them all around. i dont agree, dont validate, dont justify but i can love the fundamentalist.

i can love the atheist too. not hard.

but i am not arrogant enough to insist and demand that all think like i.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. I would be willing to wager if you took a poll here at D.U.
the fundamentalist belief of any type whether christian or atheist would be in the minority.

My point is that D.U. has thousands of posters across the spectrum of belief from one extreme to another and to label D.U. as being one or the other is selling it short.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #20
43. i NEVER say all none never always..... bah hahhaha. see the funny. you are right
Edited on Sat May-31-08 02:40 PM by seabeyond
it is not all, but many. the op didnt say all, you did, just to point out.

i have done a poll cause i believed it would be more accepting, moderate, middle of road

color me purple on my surprise that it wasnt that and there was so much anger and fight.....

as i say, i have always stood up for the atheists right to anger and am shoulder to shoulder. but..... it works both ways and i perfer to sit in honest and call it when i see it. healthier, less hypocritical and helps ME to stay true.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. My post #13 was in response to post #12, not the O.P.
"Atheism. The New Fundamentalism.

At DU anyway..."

This post makes it seem to me as if the poster was implying all D.U. was fundamental atheist, that's what I was disagreeing with. I believe D.U. is many things.

Peace to you. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #45
53. i understand
thanks....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-03-08 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #20
237. What exactly is a fundamentalist atheist?
I'm an atheist because I don't believe in god. Period.
Is there some sort of atheist bible to read? If I don't read it, does it mean I'm not really a true atheist?

Xians like to fit atheists into neat little categories using their own biases and framing, like saying atheism is a belief system. I think it pisses them off most that we don't buy into their silly framing to start with.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #18
220. "rejection of ALLOWING another to have differing views"
(Caps emphasis mine.)

How is expressing distress over superstitious beliefs the same thing as NOT ALLOWING another to have a differing view?

Why is this such a persistent theme on internet forums everywhere, with people who can't tell the difference between repression and mere commentary?

Why are there so many people who confuse criticism with censorship, who think that one person exercising their free expression to criticize what someone else says or believes somehow amounts to NOT ALLOWING what they criticize?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
88. hmmm, maybe it's because of the numerous times I've seen snarky and disrespectful cliches
aimed at people with spiritual and religious believes. I can't count how many times I've seen the 'imaginary friend in the sky' cliche leveled at anyone with a belief in divinity.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-03-08 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #88
238. Not as many as "believe or you're going to hell" remarks everywhere else.
Have any atheists knocked on your door lately, trying to convince you that there is no god? No? Didn't think so.
Atheists are used to having religion shoved in our faces every single goddamned day everywhere we go and you get pissy because somebody on the internet makes fun of your superstition?
Give me a motherfucking break.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. i was gonna say at du anyway..... i hadn't looked at it that way, but you are right
we are learning to be many of the things we were appalled by from the right. the anger, the divide, the hate, the lack of ethics and character.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ghost in the Machine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #12
145. That's "Hatetheism", not Atheism...
Please don't confuse the two... I had to make up the word "hatetheist" to describe these people who are totally intolerant of *any* religion...

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #145
151. wink. lol. cute. and dont we say the same of the christian that is hate....
Edited on Sat May-31-08 09:44 PM by seabeyond
yes. it is seperate. thanks

maybe it is more to do with people than any belief. probably so.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #145
160. Ironically, some atheists, much like dominionists, seek to banish the essence of faith: mystery
...creating a world of binary opposites, where everything is knowable and predictable.

"The monumentalism of fascism would seem to be a safety mechanism against the bewildering multiplicity of the living. The more lifeless, regimented, and monumental reality appears to be, the more secure the men feel. The danger is being alive itself." ~ Klaus Theweleit, Male Fantasies
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WhollyHeretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #160
166. Your monumental loquaciousness seeks to obfuscate conjecture
that articulates nullity, binary or otherwise.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #166
167. and i thought it was interesting....n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #166
194. And here I thought it was a rather laconic, terse posting
Thanks for the substanceless insult though...it must've struck a nerve.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #160
211. "where everything is knowable"
Oh to only hope that one day we will get to that point. Our inability to answer questions should not AUTOMATICALLY be answered by explaining it away by some supernatural being. We should first start working on the limits of our current comprehension and knowledge. If god did exist, wouldn't he want us to expand our knowledge and not automatically give in to blind faith? How many people respect an asskisser?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #160
221. Utterly and completely wrong
Most atheists are far, far more comfortable with real mystery than religious and "spiritual" believers of all stripes.

"Mystery" means something not known. "Mystery" does not mean filling in what you don't know with angels, demons, deities, psychic vibrations, etc., etc. Truly appreciating real mystery might start with considering all such things, but it ends before embracing a particular set of imaginative but unprovable and unlikely answers and then leading your life as if the superstitions you decide to latch onto are true.

Most atheists don't absolutely reject those things, but they do consider most of the supernatural fancies that people often use to fill the void of our knowledge to be incredible unlikely answers. Embracing superstition, far from being a sign of accepting mystery, is much more a symptom of fearing real mystery, being afraid to live without answers to your questions, being afraid to live without the sense of control that often accompanies believing you've found some of the answers that you seek.

What seems to get a lot of non-atheists riled up is not what atheists claim to know, but that they have the gall to say that what many believers claim to know probably isn't true. How dismissing the imaginative fancies of others gets so confused with "everything is knowable and predictable" I haven't a clue, but it certainly is a common misapprehension.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #145
203. I like it! LOL - Fundamentalist Hatetheists!
:rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #12
159. Check out the latest book by Chris Hedges, I don't believe in atheists
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #159
185. Chris Hedges, pompous blowhard who gets chopped to pieces by Hitchens
At least he's against the war and fundamentalists, so score two for him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dogtown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
169. Catch phrases are so useful...
when you have no cogent argument to support your emotional needs.

:think:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #12
210. That is right-
and we are busy persecuting 78% of the country. Just keep your children away from us, we may eat them :sarcasm:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uberllama42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #9
28. It shows that four out of five people believe something on zero evidence
It speaks poorly about the critical thinking skills of people in this country.

I find belief in angles ridiculous and do not think that particular belief deserves respect. Do we respect those who believe in fairies or leprechauns?

Do we respect those who believe that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction in 2003?

Belief in angles, IMO, is symptomatic of a larger cultural problem in America. Those who believe in supernatural entities for which there is no evidence can make very poor decisions. The fact that critical thinking skills are so rare has negative implications for the rest of us, who have to interact with angel-believers on a daily basis.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #28
42. i can as easily suggest there is a lack in critical thinking per your post
Edited on Sat May-31-08 02:43 PM by seabeyond
that 78% of the nation are shy critical thinking because they believe in angels, not angles. i think to even in anyway suggest that, lacks critical thinking. equal to all the fundamentalists that have been mouthing off righteously without the use of critical thinking.

there are so many ways a person can see the angel issue alone, beyond the little wings and halo and to pass judgment on a whole, because of this stupid poll, is shallow and nonthinking.

but even with that, in all your right to totally dismiss 78% of the population, the anger though, of the op is what i am commenting on. the anger that bats head and continues to escalate an already weary war of them against them. i dont play this silly war.

with a little critical thinking i am well aware it behooves none of us to have this attitude with fellow man. we are all losers. and with critical thinking, i am more inclined toward win win win situations.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uberllama42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #42
96. Do you know what critical thinking entails?
Critical thinking is the process of evaluating the evidence for or against a certain claim. How do I know there are angels, for instance? Have I seen them, or communicated with them? Is there some replicable experiment I can do to detect them? Can I observe some phenomenon that can only be explained by the presence of angels? Do I have it on credible authority that angels exist? What makes that authority credible in this matter?

I don't think that the specific characteristics that any particular believer might attribute to angels have any bearing on the issue. On any account, an angel is a supernatural entity that acts on behalf of God. Even attributing certain events to incorporeal entities does not stand up to critical examination. How can a believer be sure that the a given event was not a coincidence? Is there no possible explanation that relies only on phenomena which can be verified, without appealing to the supernatural?

As other posters have said, angel-believers are a very large majority of the population and decisions these people make affect us on a daily basis. The angel thing is trivial, but if the same people use the same mode of thought in other questions as they do on the question of whether angels exist, there could be very serious ramifications.

I don't know what you mean by "win win win situations." I don't think such a deficit in the rational faculties of the population at large can be described as a win for me or anyone else.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
John Gauger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #42
200. Do you know what critical thinking is?
Critical thinking is a method of evaluating claims based on evidence and logic. It has nothing to do with tolerance. UL's refusal to tolerate the childish belief in angels exhibited by many Americans has precisely dick to with critical thinking.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #42
212. "there are so many ways a person can see the angel issue alone"
and most can be fixed by medication and psychotherapy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #28
82. just because
you don't believe in angles doesn't mean angles don't exist. And there is quite a bit of evidence of angles. Just pick up any plane geometry book. or examine the corner of the table your 'puter is sitting on. Or take a close, close gander at the letter "L."

As far as angels, is there scientific evidence? No. But there was no scientific evidence of a *lot* of things for a long time, until instruments were invented to observe and measure them. Does that mean they did not exist and that the scientists who hypothesized them lacked critical thinking skills?

And for many people there is plenty of non-scientific evidence of angels. Such as their own, personal, direct experience. Non-testable, non-repeatable on demand, non-observable except by the experiencer. But very real to them, nonetheless.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #82
213. My disbelief in angles
caused me to only make a B in my college trig class. I think the teacher was biased :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cyborg_jim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #82
225. Any old illusion can be "real to them"
That's kinda the point.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #28
186. I believe in angles.
:P
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ChazII Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
33. Agree with you, 100% .
People who believe in angels (at least in my experience) are far less of a danger, than those who insist on others thinking as they do.





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlueJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #9
76. I don't believe people should believe in what I believe in....only that...
...this country would be a better place if they thought as I thought.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #76
85. ya, bush doesnt mind living in a dictatorship as long as he is the dictator either
i dont want to live in that world either.

surprising a lot of people feel the same as you. seems to have truly become the thing today, though i think there was a bet of jest in your post. though i think there is a serious to that opinion. it is what i have seen of late.

since i have never been a comformist, or a part of a whole, or really belonged, i have tended to appreciate the different. value and appreciated. we use to be a society where we were better at that type of living. bushco has changed that, and has fed thru out our nation in 8 yrs.... all sides.

i still prefer diversity
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlueJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #85
125. I was 95 percent kidding but what you say is very true.
I truly meant that since I believe in the diversity of culture and letting people be themselves....yet at the same time desire folks to care for and support each other, to try to put themselves in others shoes and try to do no harm to each other and the world.

My point is that any decent person can say the same thing (everybody should think like I do.)
Keep the mind the word "Decent" IE: Decent people would never force others to be unhappy or not have their independent thought. :)

Maybe I'm not making myself clear...I'm a good Musician but not much of a Writer..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #125
126. i figured you were.
i understand where you are coming from. and you probably get from your music exactly what is meant to come from a religion (i dont do religion) or so many other things. doesnt mean it happens for all people. matters how progressive they are on their own personal journey. but i am a believer that balance and stillness, higher vibrations are available to us in many forms, to fit our uniqueness.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
193. I agree as well
Who cares...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
10. True story
Back in the 1930s, my mom's good friend won a scholarship to the elite catholic high school. She was Afro-West Indian - a rare group at that school in those days. At Christmas time, they were picking students for the annual nativity play and she wanted to be an angel. The nun in charge looked at her and said: Tut tut child, have you ever seen a black angel. She always told us that she woke up about angels and catholicism that day to the point that she got her Masters degree, became the Minister of Education and cut their government subsidy.

So called rational people believe in a lot of crazy things.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tektonik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
11. I believe that the Angels suck
Go Dodgers! :P
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Aragorn Donating Member (784 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
31. Rangers
I've been trying to believe for years now...

But I DO believe in Celtics vs Lakers!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #31
214. "I've been trying to believe for years now..."
Well, as a resident of Fort Worth, i pity you. I gave up on believing in the Rangers years ago. (you weren't talking of the NY Rangers, were you?)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
unauno Donating Member (30 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
14.  Choice
I am of the mind that people may believe in whatever they choose.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uberllama42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #14
34. I don't think anyone advocates forcing others to believe or disbelieve anything
The objection is to the ramifications of such widespread belief in the supernatural. We skeptics draw a connection between belief in the absence of evidence and very dangerous mistakes like the War in Iraq. It's not merely a matter of opposing beliefs- it's a matter of decision-making in practical life.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
unauno Donating Member (30 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #34
118.  As before, choice.
How other people believe is not up to you, or me. There are so many different people in the world, and many different ways of thinking.
If you do not believe in the supernatural, that is fine. You can make your decisions however you choose. Just don't take away the rights of others to do so. You aren't forcing your way upon anyone, true. But if a person wants to believe in the supernatural, that is their right. It is not dangerous.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #118
223. Tell that to all of the children
who have died as a result of their parents waiting for "god" and "faith" to heal them, instead of getting them proper medical care.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
15. That's just weird.
:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
16. And?
I'm sure a good many of those who do are smarter than you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vanje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
17. Some say they are theoretical constructs.
Edited on Sat May-31-08 12:58 PM by sheeptramp
....like points and lines....
and dimensions.
But any middle school student with a protractor can measure angles.

I'm a total believer.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
21. It's not about believing there is only one way but
It *is* about believing in things that are *rational and logical*.

And yes, I think that's an incredibly fair distinction to make. Ultimately it's true, if people want to embrace what atheists and agnostics consider to be fantasy and it gives them hope and joy and makes them better people, great.

The problem is when they try to influence laws on abortion, marriage, stem cell research, contraception, HPV vaccination and so on.

The other problem is making people feel ashamed and guilty over nonsense (sex before marriage, masturbation, etc.), or creating and following other rather arbitrary and random rules about how to live life. Not killing, lying, stealing and cheating make perfect sense, with or without a bible. However the same cannot be said about wanting to ban gay marriage, avoiding shell fish or burning in a horrible pit of fire for eternity for not falling in line.

I think the pounding the head against the wall is frustration over the idea that so many people could be duped into believing in things that seem to be nonsensical by any logical measure. And yes, I realize the response might be "these things go beyond logic and reason and shouldn't be judged on those terms" but that kind of proves the point.

In short, religion can result in a lot of wonderful things but it can also result in a lot of horrible (or at least irrational and questionable) things. People can debate about the percentages either way (not that it's that easy to quantify), but it's foolish to pretend that there is no good (and more importantly for the masses, no bad) that can come of it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. I believe faith is a literal DNA ingrained requirement for survival. From Al Gore's
"The Assault on Reason", he compares faith, fear and reason to a game of rock, paper and scissors. Reason trumps faith, fear trumps reason and faith trumps fear, and they literally take turns dominating in society.

I believe this goes back to the dawn of time, the ability to reason would give one an advantage to survive but if a predator approached and you thought about it too long, you would get eaten, so fear is ingrained as an instinct to survive as well. But if you stayed afraid all the time, you would never come out of your shelter and so faith was required to overcome fear. If you walked about with blind faith again you would get eaten or walk off a cliff so reason was needed to temper faith, until fear took over again.

I believe this societal and personal conflict-ion is what leads to the emotional distress many people experience from people in different stages.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Maybe
Although one could argue that it's trial and error, and that you "hope" you don't get eaten if you leave the cave and through trial and error (which tends to be more deadly in earlier history) that you will or won't be eaten by the bear depending on the situation and how long you waie, the time of day, etc.

And for the record I'm a hard agnostic. For all practical purposes I'm an atheist, but I recognize that I can't technically disprove the giant bearded man in the sky :) . I also don't think it's fair to say that not believing in things for which there is no logical or rational evidence is somehow "extreme".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #26
36. I'm somewhat agnostic my self but it seems to me faith and hope
Edited on Sat May-31-08 02:27 PM by Uncle Joe
are at least kissing cousins if not twins. :)

My own view using shape and function as determinants is of the universe as a uterus which began expanding after the Big Bang, rocky planets such as the early Earth being unfertilized eggs, asteroids and comets resembling sperm cells bringing life giving compounds, invisible to the eye Dark Matter being the placenta which holds everything together. We are literally made of the Earth and everything on this visual plane continues to divide and come back in another form as a developing fetus would.

I'm still working on Black Holes but they may be leading to the digestive tract. Some scientists say the universe will start contracting at some point, I imagine that will be the onset of labor.

I can even tie it to Jesus, he said no one comes to the father except through him, I believe his primary lessons were to love your enemy or neighbor as your self, if everyone did this, there would be no war and I believe the chances of a still birth would be significantly reduced.

Of course this just my hypothesis. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
22. Angels don't care about kids in Darfur starving or kids in Rwanda getting arms cut off.
Angels care about Americans, mainly church going Americans, Christians. They care about things like whether a person has a bad accident or not.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RedCappedBandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #22
35. Exactly.
Where are your angels when people actually need them?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #35
49. Always Remember
When something good or great happens, it was God's will and or a miracle from above.

When something bad happens, it was either because we have free will or it's part of a mysterious plan we could never understand (but that we should trust was for some greater good or perspective).

The End
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
23. I do
O8) so does DU
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vanje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
24. I used to believe
Turns out what I thought was my guardian angel , was an errant leprechaun.
He was pretty cool though, until he started stealing my beer.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. That's what happens when you don't pray enough
;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vanje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. Its more complicated than that
Edited on Sat May-31-08 02:13 PM by sheeptramp
Leprechauns are opportunistic. They'll take up with anyone.

Pixies.
Its pixies that'll get you if you dont pray enough.

Elves come into your home if you covet the wrong things and if you dont recycle.

Fairies will fuck with your house-keeping.

Brownies.
Silly idea. Brownies dont exist.How stupid would you have to be to believe in Brownies.

Demons-....These are Brownies in disguise. And its obvious to all thinking people there are no Brownies.

Genies! These are great. I wish I could get me one of these.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #32
38. I agree on the Genies
assuming they look something like Barbara Eden circa 1960.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Exultant Democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #32
77. A Centaur comes into my room while I'm sleeping and puts crust in my eyes
for the sin of sloth.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cbc5g Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
30. Angels only protect white conservatives, didnt you know?
The brown people in poverty and starvation around the world dont have angels because they are infidels.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #30
40. Sez who??? I've been a liberal all my life,
and my guardian angels LIKE me that way!!! I guess that's because *they* are liberals too. Okay, I'm white, but let's not sweat the small stuff.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
37. you don't believe that do you?
I'm not sure where you got that number from or who did the polling, but I seriously doubt 78% Americans believe in angels.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
39. Substantially more than the secular fundamentalists who refuse to accept that science
knows next to nothing in the grand scheme of things.

They know the Peculiarity is outside of space-time, that radiation that emanated from it gave rise to our cosmos, but nothing else about it or about anything else outside of our cosmos. Accept it. Get over it. Don't bury your heads in the sand. Open your minds.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. They accept their ignorance, whereas religion is the ultimate hubris
Belief is based on a cocksure claim of understanding beyond question what's going on out there. To dismiss people who at least admit their limited understanding and continually strive to know more is tiresome silliness. From this ridiculous worldview, certainty without proof and conservative unwillingness to accept doubt are somehow infinitely superior to the humble and orderly attempt to figure things out and live with uncertainty while keeping an open mind.

The mind reels at the elaborate and self-congratulatory mental contortions people use to depict fear and rigid ignorance as somehow ethically superior to evolving rational thought.

Sure, there are asshole non-believers, but there are plenty of asshole believers, too, so this doesn't prove a thing. Obfuscatory psychobabble rises to new heights when it equates secular fact-finding with burying one's head in the sand with. Belief is the mortal enemy of thought and springs from the abject fear of the unknown. Belief seeks to kill thought, while thought seeks to keep the questions alive.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. On the contrary, you show your limited knowledge of both the role of
Edited on Sat May-31-08 03:03 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
particularly zealous Christian scientists in innovative scientific thought and breakthroughs, and of the Christian axiom that God can never ever be fully known.

There is the story, perhaps apocryphal - I rule few things out where the supernatural is concerned - of St Augsutine of Hippo musing on the nature of the Holy Trinity, as he strolled along a beach. Seeing a young boy digging a deep hole in the sand, he asked him why he was doing it, to which he replied, "To swallow up the ocean."

Augustine laughed and said he'd never be able to do that. The boy repied, "And you will never understand the Trinity."

As for belief being the mortal enemy of thought you really plumb new depths of nescience, with that one! Even secular faith is paramount simply in the conduct of our daily lives. When you trip the living-room light switch, you don't know it's going to come on. But you do it. Just as you turn the key of the car's ignition. And both open up endless possibilities because you are prepared to make that small leap of faith, i.e. act upon it. Heck, it's as if I'm talking to a child - it's so elementary. In space-time, faith and knowledge HAVE TO form a continuum.

As long as you only believe in what you can measure, spiritual truths, however modest, will always remain too subtle for you and your secularist fundie confreres to grasp, a closed book.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #50
78. Congratulations, you've once again proven yourself conclusively correct
The sheer sanctimonious condescension is deafening. Childish though I obviously am, I can see the difference between theory and fact, and I'm comfortable living in a world without arrogant and triumphal certainty in my position.

As self-aggrandizing as you are for your complex and nuanced ability to divine subtleties that the rest of us lunkheads are forever condemned to miss, you should be able to see the ridiculousness of your position here. That you aren't shows the hollowness of the claim.

It's not faith that causes one to presume that a light switch will work, it's experience. If one has a knowledge of the elements of the event, one has a leg up on diagnosing it if it fails, but regardless, this is causality: complete the circuit, and it should work. It's not some big supernatural daddy making things right for you, it's you performing a simple task that has expected results. If it fails, I don't think that the big daddy hates me, I think that it's the bulb, the switch or the wiring and I set about to solve the problem.

Could you possibly be wrong? A personal god, an afterlife and all that seems like childish, fear-based silliness, but I accept that some version of that might be true; can you do the same? If not, how does that make you more mentally nimble and perspicacious? We all have biases, but there are differing levels of prejudice, and faith is a pretty severe form of it.

So much of the discourse of this sort is of people going to extremes to justify a continued belief in something that makes them feel safe and special, not a dispassionate attempt at determining reality. That's not subtle, that's blatant, self-justifying terror wrapped up in a cloak of serene self-satisfaction. I don't have the answers, whereas you claim that you do; to me, that makes you wrong. It doesn't matter how many others agree with you; by definition, the vast majority of people are ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT about the cosmos. Even if Christianity is correct, it's only a third of the human race, so a huge majority is incredibly wrong, and wrong with such blithering certainty that many will literally kill themselves on purpose to hasten their reward.


So, perhaps those of my ilk are pedestrian blockheads unable to see anything but what's obvious, but by the same dismissive nastiness, your brethren are fantasists who bend every fact to justify a self-focused supernatural guess out of fear and a need to be loved. At least we can be counted on for our powers of observation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #39
55. Both secularists and theists agree that science knows next to nothing.
But the great part about science is that it RECOGNIZES that it knows next to nothing, and attempts to fill in the gaps. Not by taking guesses or making up wild stories, but through hard work and curiosity. But the religious fundamentalist would rather live by a religion which claims to have all the answers, even though, at the very least, many of those answers should appear ridiculously silly to any adult. A thinking person can realize that they will only learn a minute fraction of what there is to learn out there and be excited by that prospect, rather than get scared and turn to faerie tales which were created by men to explain to other men answers to questions that they wouldn't truly understand for several hundred years to come. If someone were to ask me what keeps the Earth from falling out of the sky, I'd much rather say "I don't know" than "It's sitting on the back of a giant turtle, dear lad."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. That's funny. So would I! You're a great one for strawmen, aren't you?
Edited on Sat May-31-08 03:17 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
So, all of a sudden, theists are in fact humble about the limits of their knowledge. Well, that was quick. Far be it from me to complain about an apt learner, not too proud to own up straight away to the idiocy of his previous post.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. When did I ever suggest they weren't humble?
I stay as far away as possible from people who claim to have all the answers. I'd much rather have a small amount of knowledge than a great amount of belief.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #58
63. And science is humble because it recognizes how much is out there to be known.
Quite often religion claims to have answers where there are none. I understand how it developed, it's just human nature. I can certainly understand how people hundreds of years ago would at least want a nice story about how they came to be. But to still cling to those stories when we're at least beginning to find out how it actually happened is just silly. I'm quite aware that we don't have all the answers, but we know enough to discredit the ridiculous stories out there. If you believe that woman was formed from a man's rib, you're not a critical thinker. If you think an old man rounded up two of every animal on the planet and put them on a boat, you're either a child, or an adult who is afraid to let go. Use the bible as a moral compass if you must, as a book filled with allegory and metaphor. But don't think that it actually happened. That's really kind of silly.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #58
65. I'd suggest reading a bit closer next time.
All I said regarding theists was that they agree with secularists that science doesn't have all the answers. The problem is that theists will take what science doesn't know (and quite often what science already does know) and fill it in (or in some cases, cover it up) with their tales from the bible (or koran, or torah or whatever).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. Too late to try and wriggle out of it. Your multiple successive posts
Edited on Sat May-31-08 03:46 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
reveal your panic. Don't cry over spilt milk. Move on. But read your own posts first. No need to apologise, either.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. Give me a break! You didn't refute anything I said!
I made three posts because I had a lot to say. If I was panicked, I would have edited my posts. But seeing as I stand by everything I said, I won't be doing that. Believe me, I won't be apologizing. You're more than welcome to continue believing in faerie tales. Panic? Are you serious? Would you like to debate the origins of man? Just so you're not unprepared, I don't believe that man was formed from clay.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
41. Magical thinking, the prelude to a new dark age
there, I said it

And so did Carl Sagan before he died
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Exultant Democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #41
80. There is still a culture of reason in many of the major cities and wealth centers
the problem of course is when the barbarians take over and use their magical thinking to try and run things. I have a feeling that thinking people are going to be in charge again for a while, and it would behoove them to make a serious commitment to education so that we can push back against some of this ignorance.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #41
157. the dark ages were surprisingly not all that dark...
and the age of enlightenment has been surprisingly not all that bright. it's just the particular narratives you are willing to put faith in.

many things were happening all over europe and the world, as they are now. no imaginative story (a.k.a. corpus or discipline of knowledge) has ever really been able to encompass all of reality at any time. there is too much that cannot be known and must be supposed, such as your perceptions and our fabricated tools of measuring perception. one can get a lot done by faith; be not confused that any logic used is but a house of cards upon a foundation of sand. at some point any bit of thought necessitates a leap of faith.

but i don't understand this war of disciplines against itself. they do work quite well together as long as you respect their differences, even if they do have their own technical languages. reality is to be savored from a thousand angles, not a purity crusade for establishing the most prominent view. the competition is unnecessary.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
galledgoblin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
47. shrug
so?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
retread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
48. I have seen them. If you look close all of them seem to have this somewhere.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vanje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. How can you really be sure...
that what you saw was'nt a Hobgoblin.
When a Hobgoblin is disguised and heavily sedated, he/she can be indistinguishable from an Angel.

There is no scientifically proven way to discern an Angel from a Hobgoblin.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
51. i think many people are untruthful when they are polled.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #51
59. I can imagine a believer being too embarassed to admit it.
But I can't imagine why a non-believer would tell a pollster they did. I'd imagine for most non-believers, that would be similar to admitting they believe in Spider-Man.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #59
189. That's because you're a professing non-believer...
Edited on Sun Jun-01-08 03:52 PM by JackRiddler
the majority of non-believers remain conformists within their society, which expects them to profess religion or at least give it lip-service. They tend to be embarrassed at not believing the same bullshit as what they are told is the majority.

Anyway, it's a stupid thing to ask. I might have said yes as a lark - do I have an obligation to tell pollsters the truth? I may not believe in angels, but I do think polls are the devil!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #51
87. It's true! Did you know 74% of statistics are just made up on the spot?
Well, OK, maybe 53%. But I'm sure it's a lot.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
60. So? Who the hell are you to tell someone else what to believe or not to believe?
And how does that affect your life in any way shape or form?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. I don't think anyone is saying you *can't* believe it
Edited on Sat May-31-08 03:44 PM by ihavenobias
I think the point is frustration over belief in things not supported by logic or reason in any sense.

What if the poll said that 78% of Americans believe in Leprechauns? I don't ask that to be dismissive or insulting, I ask that in all honesty because as non-theist I see there is just as much (or as little) evidence to support either.

As for how that particular belief might effect the OP's life, it doesn't, but it may speak to the underlying issue of belief in irrational things. As I wrote in a previous post, this *does* become incredibly relevant when irrational belief is used to justify or guide certain actions or laws (trying to ban gay marriage, stem cell research, contraception and HPV vaccines for example, or making people feel extreme guilt or shame over things like masturbation, sexual attraction and sex before marriage).

Now, obviously these beliefs can also lead to wonderful conclusions and actions (be generous and kind, stop war, etc.) but it's potentially dangerous because you can't have a reasonable discussion based on an unreasonable premise.

For example, if a Bush supporting evangelical says God chose Bush to be president and therefore the war must be good, what kind of debate can you have in that context? By contrast if someone argues that the war is good because we're fighting terror, you at least have a *chance* of possibly having a reasonable discussion based on facts, etc.

PS---I believe in the right for anyone to believe in what they want to believe in. But that certainly does not, and should not, mean that I HAVE to respect each and every belief itself. Religious beliefs should not be off limits from criticism and opinion, as they are no different than any other belief.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #64
71. equally i can say love conquers all.
Edited on Sat May-31-08 03:54 PM by seabeyond
it is not a tangible. just a belief. love is no more real. just a perception. yet still. i stand by love conquers all.

a person who is not me, has not had my expereinces in life, does not think like me could hold the exact argument you make that it is fairy tale, it is irrational and any number of things. there is no way i could convince. there is no way without experience a person would even have a clue what i am talking about. i could know it is as real as anything real is. but there is no way i could convince another. so why try

to decide a person is wrong because it cannot be seen or felt by another person is their right, but doesnt make them right. it is the arrogance of the person that insists because the cannot see it, or feel it then it must not be there. but whatever. i am all for someone to chose their journey themselves and i not interfer.

the best we can do is how the u.s. was set up, and we had been following pretty well until the last handful of years.... seperate church from state.

and a little respect and acceptance, allowance of one another will take us a long way.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. The Bottom Line
Edited on Sat May-31-08 04:20 PM by ihavenobias
These terms are all very vague.

"Love conquers all" could many any number of things. What is love? What does love conquer? What does it mean to conquer something? It's too vague to argue in the abstract.

To decide that a particular belief or set of beliefs is irrational and should therefore not be followed or used to influence behavior (because those beliefs are not supported by logic, reason or facts) makes perfect sense.

Again, there is a difference between respecting someone's right to believe in leprechauns and Greek mythology if they so choose and respecting the actual beliefs themselves. I think it's absurd to say you MUST respect everything that someone believes simply because that person believes it.

What if someone believes the holocaust never happened? Should I respect that belief so as not to hurt that person's feelings?

No, obviously not. But of course I won't force that person at gun point to stop believing it, or throw them in jail if they do. I would however refer them to some history books and documentaries with factual accounts of the situation (as opposed to having them take my word for it).

Acceptance, IMO, is not generically saying that everything that could be believed must be respected.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #74
81. with the holocaust there is factual info as proof. a person can deny, dismiss, ignore
Edited on Sat May-31-08 04:35 PM by seabeyond
the facts, but the facts stand.

angels, god... (which i think we are talking about more) one cannot prove it or prove it doesnt exist either way....

a little bit different.

that is where i do not say, because i do not see, feel, know..... it cannot be.

at that point is the arrogance, even limited thinking, i believe. because if a person doesnt believe something because they have not experienced it, i would appreciate the person more saying, you know.... i dont see feel know.... but who is to say, instead of saying.... cause i dont see feel know, it isnt.

from beginning of time, every culture in one way or another has felt a higher power one way or another and has had one way or another to express their feeling of a higher power. thru religion, or spirituality, or culturely, or like my atheist friend lite.... or energy or sound. many different forms, names and styles to explain this higher power.

it isnt mine to convince, to snark at, or to deny of another. BUT if anothers belief is pushed on others, i will defend, be it the atheist or the fundamentalist christian
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #81
86. But that's just it
Edited on Sat May-31-08 04:41 PM by ihavenobias
You wrote: "the facts, but the facts stand.

angels, god... (which i think we are talking about more) one cannot prove it or prove it doesn't exist either way....

a little bet different."

And my point (which is stated very well by popular author Sam Harris in A Letter To A Christian Nation: http://www.randomhouse.com/kvpa/harris /) is that otherwise intelligent humans use logic, facts and reason in EVERY other area of their life. Why is it that they throw these things out the window when it comes to religion?

It's basically saying "yes, this is completely illogical, irrational and not supported by facts, but for just this one thing that's ok".

And look, personal experience can be incredibly misleading. If someone claims they talk to Elvis we put them in a straight jacket and give them a padded room, yet if another person claims to talk to an invisible God, that's perfectly ok. Why in the world do we make such a distinction? If enough people start to believe that they talk to Elvis, do we start to accept that too, because they experienced it?

And yes, from the beginning of time every culture has come up with (factually baseless) claims to explain things they didn't understand. Zeus made lightning bolts, Apollo made the sun shine and any other number of the hundreds of beliefs we have dis-proven and explained over the centuries.

Are there things we (currently) can't explain with science? Of course. But considering how much science has illuminated (about the sun, the stars and even explaining DNA and the central nervous system in many ways), why do people assume these explanations will stop? I'm not saying that "everything" will be discovered, but I *am* saying that a current lack of explanation is not in and of itself somehow proof that an all knowing infinite being with our best interest at heart is somewhere watching and guiding us.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #86
89. personal experience can easily be dismissed when you dont experience it. lol
personal experience can be misinterpreted. it can be flat out wrong. BUT when so many feel know see a higher power, or a play with energy or whatever it is real to them. all of us understand that there is nothing there to command FOR SURE. that is the definition of faith. having nothing to prove it is real, but knowing it is real.

i think being such a pragmatic person myself, i tend to ask, ..... even the atheist i know.... hold on to either lite OR energy and one has sound as the collective for all, all is one, collective conscience, higher power......and being pragmatic, WHY is it so consistant that always people have a belief in the collective.


but regardless, where i come back to is the person that is not open to a possibility and demands that it doesnt exist, probably cause they are not open to the existance.

from my personal experience, consistently i have found, that those that are open find it one way or another.... thru life. be it religion, the bible, koran, spiritual, nature, animals, children, lite, sound (music)......that they are all the same stories told that lead us to the ultimate.

but that is why i can embrace all. i believe it is in all. and we all get to travel our unique journey individually for our reasons. as we do it collectively.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #89
91. It all comes down to interpretation of experience
One can consume certain drugs and have out of body, transcendental experiences and believe they are in fact speaking with a higher power. IMO, that tells you something about such experiences in general.

I don't doubt that people feel "something", but what they ultimately attribute these feelings and experiences to is where they get into trouble. And look, when more and more people hear about it, they're more likely to believe or want to believe or interpret their own experiences in that way.

Kind of like if a psychic tells you you'll meet someone wearing red in the next week. Chances are you'll (consciously or not) be searching out for anyone wearing red. And once you find that person, you'll have created your own self fulfilling prophecy.

I believe in treating others as you would like to be treated. And I have to tell you, if I'm being irrational and illogical about something, I WANT someone to tell me so, as opposed to everyone letting me continue to delude myself out of fear of hurting my feelings. But that's just me. If someone harmlessly believes in religion to cope with death and tragedy, that's great (as long as it doesn't prevent them from actually ever getting over the pain and reality of the situation).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #91
93. but really
you ARE just making an assumption they are being irrational and illogical. having not experienced what they have, .... it appears that way to you. so you can tell a person they are irrational and illogical, but that doesnt make it true.

people hearing voices in their heads where thought to be irrational and illogical yet they have found mental illness that causes "voices" in their heads. so as they had been told repeatedly that they really were not hearing voices in their head, it was later found out that golly gee.... they were. color all of us surprised.

i am just saying

cannot prove it exists. equally, you cannot prove it does not exist. just something to remember. and it hurts no one

if it is an infringement on others.... then i am on your side.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #93
94. That's a completely impractical way of looking at it
That's why we have the scientific method, to test such things. There is no factual evidence to support any of those claims, so until proven otherwise, there is no *logical* or *rational* reason to believe in them.

You can argue (again) that logic and reason don't apply in this case, and that leads us back to square one.

Yes, there might be an invisible unicorn flying above your head, but there is no logical reason to believe there is, even if you believe you feel its presence.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #94
95. that is ok. you dont have to believe a single thing you do not see, feel, know
i am not trying to convince you otherwise. equally, you cannot get me to believe that things i have experienced are not real. now tell me. how silly would it be for me to have absolute proof on stuff that cannot be seen, felt, or known and to dismiss it because you tell me so, when thru out my life there is continual proof that i am right.

i wont ask it of you

you can ask it of me

and i will tell you

no thank you. lol lol

and you know what (i am too pratical, pragmatic) but there are people that are actually NOT pratical, and NOT pragmatic and they still have value and get to be, .... and i wont tell them they MUST be practical.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #95
97. As long as I don't have to respect their irrational beliefs while still respecting
Edited on Sat May-31-08 05:31 PM by ihavenobias
their right to believe them, that's fine :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #97
101. really
i dont care about the snickers, flat out rude, disrespectful comments to put someone down, to belittle a person in an obnoxious manner. i can deal with all that. it really doesnt matter to me. it really doesnt matter to me because it has no effect on me and really effects only the person that has the need to be ugly. BUT... it is the anger and hate i am seeing that wasnt here a couple years ago with the large atheist crowd here on du. i can understand the progression to the anger and hate because of the actions of the rw religion and the actual effects on peoples lives. but that anger and hate will not solve any problems, heal any wounds or make us a better people. it will just continue to do damage and divide.

that is my issue in the whole mess of this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #101
106. I don't know who agrees that hate is a good idea
Edited on Sat May-31-08 06:06 PM by ihavenobias
And yes, there is (rightfully) a lot of anger, disgust and resentment over the religious right and their attempt to replace the Constitution with Biblical law and other small issues, etc.

Obviously most believers are not nearly that extreme. Although there *is* something to be said for how more moderate believers can shield and even enable religious extremism.

This occurs when people are overzealous about political correctness and fear of being labeled intolerant of one's religious beliefs, so they refuse to criticize ANY or most beliefs even if they are incredibly questionable (female circumcision for example).

This does a great disservice obviously, and here in America it allows the Hagee's and Rod Parsley's of the world get to continue spewing hate and right wing religious extremism without fear of backlash. They have their "Faith Shield" and if anyone calls them out on their insane bullshit they cry foul and say someone is being "intolerant".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #106
116. cookin dinner
so cant get into this. but one of my favorite subjects. thanks...

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #97
103. you understand if you go thru our communications, there were a number of times
where in the calmest and nicest of ways you continually felt the need to put others down. over and over and over.

yet

in all my posts, i never felt the need to put anyone down on any of the sides.

again, just a thought... as you continue to be sure your way is the best way.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #103
107. You're viewing it as a personal attack, which it's not
Edited on Sat May-31-08 05:58 PM by ihavenobias
Again, it's not about putting people down. It's about what is supported by facts and what isn't. That's why we are having this disconnect, because I don't give special reverence to religious beliefs vs any other beliefs.

If you think that is somehow insulting, I apologize as that was not and is not my intention.

At the same time I find it interesting that so many people are so easily offended when someone calls their beliefs into question (IMO it's very telling, but I'll let you draw your own conclusions on that particular topic). I'm not saying that is you specifically, I'm just making a general observation.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #107
114. no. i was taking the other side of the argument and i did not feel the need
to make you less at any point. further i think there was effort on my part to have win win...... even in disagreement. and no i am not taking it personally as i have specifically expressed i am not. but a person could take it personally if they allowed. you can give insult, but a person has to receive the insult. they can also say no thank you.

but yes, your language at every point was dismissive, derogatory. and if you feel no shame in that, you can at least be honest that was your intent because it is clear. and again, it is fine with me, but it is an observation.....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #114
117. Miscommunication then
Edited on Sat May-31-08 06:07 PM by ihavenobias
You must be referring to the words "irrational" and "illogical" or variations on those words.

Those words CAN be used without a personal judgment. I mean, that is what those beliefs are to non-theists objectively.

Did you see me use any adjectives like "idiots, dopes, morons, stupid people"? No, in fact I specifically avoided such adjectives. But look, I agree that if someone is looking for a reason to be offended, they will surely find it.

PS---The only exception to my use of adjectives is that I referred to some of what Hagee/Rod Parsley have said as "insane bullshit". I stand by those words.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 05:24 AM
Response to Reply #86
158. you may want to dabble in modern and post modern thought
you are supposing 'otherwise intelligent humans' use the same 'logic, facts, and reason' (we'll not touch on the 'every other area of their life,' just to be charitable. an absolutism like that would wilt before how humans deal with emotions, etc). there is not necessarily a one-size-fits-all standard on such tools, nor has there been over the ages. what we use now in modern western society is our current cultural narrative, which does make allowances for a variety of configurations in the world view department.

i often hear people mistaking their life philosophy of modern materialism as the de facto 'truth', 'logical' thinking, and synonymous with 'science'. it's a method to think, assume, and postulate about the world to be sure, but it holds no special structure in understanding the world separate from other belief narratives. its most zealous adherents just lately found a new antagonistic line of jingoism dismissing "competing?" narratives. sounds rather petty and fearful, but apparently it's the latest auto-da-fe for materialism believers. different ideas, even whole viewpoints, have been suspended in cultures, societies, and individual people without collapse. where this notion that such ideas are competing in some sort of highlander "there shall be only one" melee is rather sad, but seemingly perpetual.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dorkulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #158
178. There are good reasons to see material rationalism as "better."
The fact is, empiricism, reason, scientific deduction or whatever you want to call it produces amazing results. Nobody can pray a computer into existence, and no other approach to reality has produced such incredible, concrete advances in our understanding of reality. Rationalism works.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #64
99. There is more to life than simple "rational" activity.
A great many people, myself included, find that there is something missing in the cold material world.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vanje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #99
102. Whats missing from my life?
Pixies!!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #102
120. Dismiss spirituality all you want. You are not going to sway me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #99
109. Yes, we have emotions
Love, hate, joy, sorrow and everything in between.

There's nothing cold about that. Besides which, I recognize that the blanket of faith can keep one warm in a seemingly cold world, but I recognize that faith for what it is and don't pretend it's somehow objective truth.

It's a way of coping, of providing context (that some need and or desperately want) and comfort. And again, if it doesn't hurt anybody that's fine. Unfortunately in many cases (I won't say most, I will only say many) it *does* hurt someone. Major examples are suicide bombings and interfering with potentially life saving stem cell research.

Extreme guilt over sexual preference or arbitrary rules about sex before marriage and non-adherence to arbitrary rituals (eating meat on a designated non-meat day for example) are in the mix too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #109
121. As I said, I feel there is more to this world than logic and reason.
I don't believe everything comes down to equations. I used to, but no longer.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #121
128. as i say, i am a very practical pragmatic person, and i too use to live life like that
not anymore...... in some areas....

it is my character. that hasnt changed, but i have grown and evolved.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #121
129. That's fine
Edited on Sat May-31-08 06:44 PM by ihavenobias
You don't have to.

I just don't see the leap (logical or illogical) from "not everything comes down to equations" to "all knowing, omnipresent being who's got my back assuming I devote my life to him OR who makes me burn for eternity if I don't".

I'm open to the idea that there is a "something" out there, but not that the "something" is a rather clearly defined bearded guy who monitors our actions and has our best interest at heart.

Why do people assume that if there is a higher power that he/she/it ("it" is more appropriate IMO because I don't picture this supreme being with genitals) is benevolent as opposed to malevolent or more likely, indifferent?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #129
132. you are really limiting view to religion. religion was needed
in a time in order for a progressive step forward in mankind... but i too am a believer we are at a place and time beyond religion. it is just that (in my view) all are not (or a large enough number) at a place in their journey to step beyond.

i believe we are given many opportunities and one of those clear times was after 9/11. we could have stepped forward in evolution in love in a collective conscience that would have been huge. instead fear won out and i feel we took a huge step backward in the old testament/patriarchal mentality of protect out of fear. we were not ready collectively to step forward. i think election 2004 was another big opportunity and both the religious and now some of the left chose to continue in battle.

i think another of those opportunities are coming our way. many of the "fundamentalist" have seen their error of their ways and how misguided they were in hate. i think having a black candidate will allow them to step out of fear and make that progressive step forward,..... again.

but, it is simply we are given opportunity. whether we chose it or not as a whole or majority that can feed to a greater whole is our choice

that is why i am spending the time on a thread like this with atheists who have gone from being rather accepting/allowing to anger/hate. we need each other.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #132
134. Well to be fair
if I'm limiting the discussion to religion it's because the original topic was angels, and I'm not aware of angels being very common outside of religion.

And of course we ultimately need to come together for common causes, not doubt about it. If someone wants to fight global warming because they believe they are protecting God's creation, I have no problem with that, because even though I disagree with their reasoning, I know their conclusion is correct (and logical and pragmatic).

On the other hand if someone is trying to ban gay marriage because of their particular interpretation of what it says (what *they think* it says) in a 2,000 year old book, *that* I have a serious problem with.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dorkulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #99
179. Aren't you tacitly admitting that you choose to believe in the supernatural
simply because it makes you feel better?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cbc5g Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #60
68. If you believe something without evidence you can be persuaded to believe anything n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #68
72. why would anyone believe such a stupid statement.
are you saying believe what you are saying, without any evidence......how totally ironic
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Inquisitive Donating Member (480 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #72
115. the statement is axiomatic
If one requires substantial amounts of critically evaluated evidence before accepting something as truth than it will be difficult if not impossible to convince them of that which there is no legitimate evidence. If one requires little to no proof before consenting to the belief of something then they are much more prone to believing that which is false. You'd be extremely hard pressed to come up with a coherent and sensible argument otherwise.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cbc5g Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #72
135. I dont need to give evidence for what I am saying
Edited on Sat May-31-08 06:58 PM by cbc5g
The person making the extraordinary claim that there are angels is the one who need to provide evidence.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs." - Carl Sagan

We've come far as a species because of the scientific method. If not for requiring proof then we would still believe the Earth is flat.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #135
137. you are claiming if they believe this, they will believe anything. i dont think it is true
i think it is an extraordinary claim on your part. i think you need to provide proof that if a person believes in angels they will elieve anything.

so ante up the proof in a scientific method that these 78% will believe ANYTHING.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #60
110. I don't think the OP was telling anyone what to believe.
For my part, I think people should be able to believe as they wish but I also share the OP's frustration that so many believe in such things.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-03-08 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #60
239. People can believe what they want
even if it is incredibly stupid. And the rest of us have the right to laugh our asses off at their stupidity.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
70. So what?
How is that harming you?

People believe all kinds of things.

And how is that so very different from the large number of people who believe in God?

Doesn't mean they can't think, can't reason, etc.

It just means that they believe in something you don't.

Now, stop banging your head against the wall. You'll give yourself one nasty headache.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Phred42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
73. So how many of THOSE beleive Elvis is still alive?
Edited on Sat May-31-08 04:06 PM by Phred42
or Oswald killed Kennedy?
or Bush was elected (either time)
or the DLC or Blue Dogs are democratic organization?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Phred42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
75. The REAL question is - How many can fit on the head of a pin!
:rofl:


:popcorn:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HuffleClaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
79. LINK ???? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlueJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #79
131. Here >>In this newest poll the % are slightly changed...
Edited on Sat May-31-08 06:39 PM by BlueJazz
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
83. Only because they keep leaving their droppings on my car. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheFarseer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
92. Prove there AREN'T angels!
As long as they don't want it taught in schools or something, who cares?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uberllama42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #92
105. The burden of proof rests on the person making the positive claim
I don't have to prove a damn thing to justify not believing. I refrain from believing in angels until I am presented with sufficient evidence to convince me that they do exist.

If I claim that there is a fire-breathing dragon in my garage, do you believe me, or do you ask for evidence? I apply the same standard to the claim that there are angels.

As others have written, the willingness of so many people to believe something without evidence has real implications for the rest of us. What about all the decisions these people make that affect us every single day?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #92
111. Prove there isn't a teapot in orbit...
between Earth and Mars.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #111
140. Bertrand Russell concept.
The orbiting teapot.

Furthermore, you CANNOT prove a negative. Not proper according to the rules of logic. First you prove that something DOES exist.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
John Gauger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #140
202. Technically, you can prove a negative.
You do it by proving something that is mutually exclusive to the inverse of the negative. It works like this:

Suppose somebody sets fire to a building. Could I prove that I didn't do it? Sure, if I prove that somebody else did do it. Since that is mutually exclusive to me doing it, that proves it wasn't me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #202
228. Right, it should be "you cannot prove some negatives".
Excerpt from Robert Stein's "I Am Not a Giraffe, and I Can Prove It":

In writing and discussion, it is sometimes appropriate to explain the difficulty (or even the impossibility)of proving some negatives. It is an unjustifiable stretch to jump to the universal declaration that it is impossible to prove a negative.

We must consider the precision of the definitions, the size of the item for which we seek proof, the size of the universe in which this item is supposed to exist, as well as other considerations.

For example, suppose someone says: I believe that unicorns exist. Although I cannot prove it, you cannot prove that they do not exist. So we must keep an open mind about the subject.

The problems: We would have to agree on a precise definition of unicorn. Next we would have to determine how to test and validate it. Even after we do that, it would still be impossible to prove that there is not even a single unicorn anywhere in the universe.

More, beginning on page 14 of this pdf

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uberllama42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #111
154. I was going to use that
but I figured I would rather plagiarize Sagan's dragon than Russell's teapot.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
John Gauger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #92
201. Please tell me you are joking. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
98. sure, if the question is phrased right
i believe in angels, and as the tee-shirt says, i know they must be angels because they have wings



i also believe people love to fuck with poll takers who ask idiotic questions


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
104. I don't believe in headbanging angels. eom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
quiet.american Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
112. Definitely count me in! Love my angels! nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Buck Rabbit Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
113. I'd believe more ... if they had better left hand pitching.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
119. Hmmm...
I'll tell ya what.

If they just want to believe in angels, it's no skin off my back. They can believe in cookie monsters or two-headed alligators or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. No problem.

If they want to come in with "I believe in angels therefore we must get rid of abortion/liquor/dancing/gambling/whatever their church says is Bad" that's a problem, for it affects people who don't believe in angels, or who believe in them but like to drink and dance.

Like Eric Schwartz says, "I don't tell you how to pray so don't tell me how to screw."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
122. That percentage seems awfully high.
I'd like to know the questions leading up to that question...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #122
148. Where is the link to the poll numbers anyway?
What would it matter if there where some of them anyway?


Like us mortals would have some say about it :rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #148
152. That's another good question.
This is like the thread the other day talking about the Catholic church encouraging ladies to be nuns, or staying virgins...I reckon I don't have a use for either one.

:P
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
123. Angels of course, angel!
:applause: angels!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Contrary1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
130. Several years ago, as I was visiting my uncle in the hospital...
something interesting happened. He was dying of cancer, and was semi-comatose. As far as I could tell, he was not even aware that we were in the room. His lips had become so dry, that they were cracked. I went and got some water on a washrag, to dab them.

He immediately opened his eyes, looked at me, and smiled broadly. "You're an angel", he said. I replied no, it's just me. He then looked at my husband, "It is an angel, isn't it?" My husband told him yes.

Now, I have no idea what he was seeing. But I would like to think that if angels do exist, he did indeed see one that night. I only know that whatever he saw when he looked at me made him happy, and put him at peace. His last words to me were that he was amazed that anything could be so beautiful.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
unauno Donating Member (30 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #130
147. Yes
I think that most people who believe in angels believe in something like you just described.
A loving, caring presence...especially at a time of great pain. Peace is something we all will wish for at the end.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
133. why not, gotta believe in somethin'
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cbc5g Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #133
136. I think there are bigger forces at work than ghosts and angels flying around
Edited on Sat May-31-08 07:04 PM by cbc5g
But to each his own.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #133
138. Nope, I don't have to believe in anything. period.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AgadorSparticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
139. oh please, not this again. It seems every few months, someone has to truck this same wedge
issue out. Let it go!!! REALLY! Who gives a fuck right now if your fellow DU'er believes in angels or so called "concrete, rational constructs" when gas is $3.70 a gallon and fast approaching $4.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #139
144. ya.... wink. lol. priorities. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
142. Could be a lot worse.
People who believe in benign angels don't get in my face and harass me.

They don't argue with me to convince me to believe in their angels, unlike those who harass me to believe in their angry old vindictive Bastard-of-a-Gawd.

The ones who believe in an angry old vindictive Bastard-of-a-Gawd insist that I believe in their psychotic God, and also tell me I have free will but that I am definitely going to hell because I don't accept their Bastard-of-a-Gawd; oh, but they insist I have free will. The legal term is "duress".




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mutley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
146. So?
Edited on Sat May-31-08 09:45 PM by mutley_r_us
Does it hurt you when someone believes in angels?

Oh and another thing. Do people who believe in ghosts anger you this much? Do Wiccans anger you this much? Pagans?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
150. Angels are the bacteria that dance on the head of a syringe
Until they infect you with their toxins...in a holy way of course
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
153. Not all angels have wings.
:loveya:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #153
165. I've got to ask. What is that horrific thing?
It looks like something out of one of those grotesque Japanese horror films made by the likes of Miike and others. I might have to give it a rental.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
windoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
155. whoa chill out
imagining angels=not bad
imagining voice of god telling you to start wars, dominate the world=bad
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
156. I don't know about angels,..
...but I definitely believe in demons.

What do you think has been running the country for the past 7+ years?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spinbaby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 06:56 AM
Response to Original message
161. As long as they don't decorate with angels
I have a relative with a pink angel theme going on at her house. I find it very disturbing, especially the rotating laser-light-show angel and the statuette of an angel stalking Hansel and Gretel.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DFW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 07:13 AM
Response to Original message
162. I'd rather be part of the 22% than the 28%
I don't begrudge anyone their beliefs, as long as they don't begrudge me mine.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
galledgoblin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
168.  Teen: 'I don't feel like a hero'
http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=6926...

"Then the infant's grandmother, Catherine Laverty, 48, took Anthony into her arms. She was asked if the baby was injured.

"No; got a guardian angel though. I'll tell you that," Laverty said."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dorkulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #168
176. Hah, yeah screw the kid that actually saved him, it must have been an angel what did it!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
galledgoblin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #176
183. don't be silly
the kid is a hero, but people also like to add another level of spirituality to events like this. there's no harm in it and it does not take away anything from the human courageousness- maybe it even adds to it, making your fellows the hands of God.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dorkulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #183
188. Exactly--people "like to" add spiritual import
where none objectively exists. Doesn't God care about all the babies that do die?

It's obviously anyone's right to believe whatever they want, but I have to admit it seems childish and unserious to me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #168
184. wow. that mom was really on super mom alert!
Jeez.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
galledgoblin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #184
196. first time parents should all get Andy Garcia
dressed up in his costume from The Untouchables to follow them around and dive to catch the baby
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TroglodyteScholar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
171. Source for this? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dorkulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
175. If you believe in the bible, then you believe in angels.
I don't believe in any of it, but I'm pretty sure there are a few stories about angels in the bible. So I guess if you think the bible is true, then you ought to believe in angels. It's no less preposterous than believing in God or ghosts or any of the other unseen, undetectable supernatural agents nearly everyone believes in for some reason. I find it frustrating too, but at some point you just have to accept it and move on.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
matt007 Donating Member (299 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
177. 78% are fools
ok i now believe in fairies and elves.......same stupid shit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
181. I don't care what people believe.
As long as they treat others with fairness, dignity and compassion. I'm a live and let live kind of person. I also believe that there are "more things in heaven and earth Horatio..." I am also willing to work very, very hard to achieve a fair and just living for all people. Why do you care if I believe in angels? Why does it offend you?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
182. So what
My dad and I love watching the "angel" shows - makes us feel hopeful.

It's just human nature to want to believe in people from the afterlife are here to do good. We're not religious at all BTW.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
187. But let's be honest now...
About 2 percent believe they are the Messiah (or a Messiah of some kind), and they make a lot more trouble per capita.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
190. I'll join you in that "head against wall" thing
Had a woman walk into my office a couple of days ago and said she had just been certified as an "angel counselor".

Then she asked my wife if her father had died recently - She didn't know he's got cancerous spots on his liver - and my wife bought into the whole nonsense.

I laughed at the whole charade - Mrs GoS has made it an open secret that her dad has cancer and I'm sure that this actress has heard the stories.


:wtf:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
191. Who Cares.
It still "is" a free country, isn't it? People can believe what they want.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
192. I believe in angels. n/t.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gatorboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
195. Aw geez...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uberllama42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
197. It was only a matter of time before this ended up in R/T eom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
onager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
204. Angels didn't care about European kids, either.
TexasObserver: Angels don't care about kids in Darfur starving or kids in Rwanda getting arms cut off.

Or about kids in the largely Xian and rational nation of France not so long ago:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drancy_deportation_camp

I recently saw a documentary featuring a French woman who survived Drancy as a small child. She said something like this:

I don't know how the people around Drancy can say they never knew what happened there. The children were crying and screaming 24 hours a day.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #204
205. Nope. Angels only care if you are rich, white, and American.
God is an American, after all :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
206. I just can't see how angels can exist.
How did they evolve? Where did they come from? Why can't we see them? Don't they reflect light? If they are light, how can they have any corporeal effects? Human beings obviously share a common ancestor with other mammals and apes, but where do angels fit in phylogenetically? If they are from other planets, which planets?

Don't people who believe in angels ask themselves these questions?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #206
219. They come from Zoroastrian angelology n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
John Gauger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #206
226. It's one of the many, many things you're not supposed to think about.
You're just supposed to believe it without putting any thought into it. Sure, it's contrary to what we already know about the universe, but that shouldn't get in your way. Don't give up that easily; let's see some mental gymnastics!

It's just one of the many ancient superstitions that falls apart as we learn more about the world in which we live.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
215. ...so? If you're a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, and you believe in your religion's holy texts,
then you believe in the existence of angels. This does not mean that you have to believe in:

Little winged children.
Pretty winged ladies.
Protector spirits that are assigned to individuals.
Personal intercession to prevent injury/pain.
Personal Holy Vending Machines that follow you around.

Belief in holy messenger/intercessionary/glorifying creations of the Divine doesn't entail belief in any of the above.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fox Mulder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
217. I don't see anything wrong with that.
Edited on Mon Jun-02-08 11:19 PM by Fox Mulder
If that's what they believe, then so be it. As long as it doesn't directly affect my life, or anyone else's, then I don't care.

As for me, well I don't know what to believe.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
218. I don't think it makes people stupid, but it is disappointing.
Angels and saints are basically the minor gods of what is ostensibly monotheism. People have a need to believe in them. I know it is a product of the specific workings of psychological processes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-03-08 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
222. And a large portion of the population also believes in UFOs...
both of which have NO empirical evidence to support their existence. This also goes for all the other supernatural claims around the world.

Without empirical evidence, we can say that such things, in fact, do not exist.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
224. I do. I even pray the Guardian Angel prayer with my kids.
A PRAYER TO YOUR GUARDIAN ANGEL

O Angel of Christ, holy guardian and protector of my soul and body, forgive me everything wherein I have offended thee every day of my life, and protect me from all influence and temptation of the evil one. May I nevermore anger God by any sin. Pray for me to the Lord, that He may make me worthy of the grace of the All-holy Trinity, and of the Most Blessed Theotokos, and of all the Saints. Amen.

It helps them sleep through the night sometimes. My daughter likes to sleep with her icon in her arms when she's scared, too.

I don't care if that lowers me in your opinion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-19-08 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #224
227. That is a really creepy prayer...
It seems unhealthy for children.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #227
235. So is them not getting enough sleep.
It helps my kids sleep, and if they decide when they're older not to believe, that'll be their choice. For now, we pray before meals and at night and go to church, and they like it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Help_I_Live_In_Idaho Donating Member (432 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
229. What's an Angel?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
230. I wonder how that compares with other countries
Believe it or not this number might be "low" comparing with some other countries. I wonder where the US ranks in angel belief category.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
231. is that 78% of the *adult* population?
if they polled the entire population, they'd probably find a fairly scary-looking percentage that believe in santa claus.

i'm kidding. i'm sure it's the adult population. which is to say...

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MullenBank Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-21-08 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
232. Evidence 78%
of americans are really fucking gullible.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
New Dawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-22-08 02:32 AM
Response to Original message
233. Strange how it is "good" to believe in angels, but "bad" to believe in UFOs
I'm thinking of how Dennis Kucinich was demonized...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uberllama42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #233
236. George Carlin (pbuh) had a bit about that
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-76094635083979...

Spot-on, as usual. I'm so sad he bit it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
elshiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-24-08 02:48 AM
Response to Original message
234. .....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed Sep 17th 2014, 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Religion/Theology Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC