Was Jesus Christ a Muslim?

[Boojatta]

Poll question: Was Jesus Christ a Muslim?

[Bicoastal]

1. Total nonsense!

Everyone knows Jesus was into Scientology. :evilgrin:

[JeffR]

2. Re: that first vote there

Jes' messin' with ya. I'm a Boojatta fan. Good poll. Uh, I think.

[Xipe Totec]

3. Jesus was a Jew

and he predates Islam so, by definition, he cannot be a Muslim.

But he is a very important prophet in Islam.

[hlthe2b]

7. correct... the RW fundies choose to ignore that Jesus is

a very important prophet in Islam. Just not convenient to their warped "hate the muslims" message....:eyes:

[ironbark]

14. correct....and many LW fundies demonstrate the same contempt

for islam.

On three or four occasions I have made reference to the fruits of Islam and the consistent response from DU atheists has been to ignore/deny any Islamic contribution to civilization and immediately expect literal interpretation of the Quran and evoke 9/11.

I was kinda expecting that from RW fundies but it came from those who are to be called "progressives" but must not be called fundamentalists- even if they take the same literalism approach and black/white (no grey) world view.

According to the LW fundamentalists if you read "an ant talking to Solomon" as metaphor that's a cop out and you are as bad as the Bible Bashers...it's literal or nothing (and I thought that was a RW fundie trait).

The OP question re Jesus being a Muslim is a good and valid one for a "progressive" Religion and Theology board. To be a 'Muslim', is as I understand it, to have (literally ;-) 'surrendered' unto God....so the question (devoid of the 'been to Mecca crap) invites- 'Jesus- Man 'surrendered' unto God?, God made manifest?, Bit of both? Son of God?

The potential for Jesus to be a man 'surrendered' unto God is valid...it has been a core concept since the beginning of Christianity.

Personally I doubt that any such questions re Christianity or Islam have a snowball in hells hope of being discussed round here without the devastating responding argument provided by the animated emoticon.

[RaleighNCDUer]

17. Dude, you got issues.

Take a pill.

[More Than A Feeling]

18. I'd like to discuss atheist responses to religion with you.

But you'll have to get rid of the strawman you are knocking down.

Interested?

[ironbark]

19. Sure........I'm interested.

"you'll have to get rid of the strawman you are knocking down".

Ok....Identify it and I'll see what I can do.

[On the Road]

24. Muslim Traditions on The Old Testament

provide an interesting contrast and IMO are sometimes preferable to Christian traditions, since they developed outside the scope of Romanized Christianity.

I know Jesus is considered a prophet by Muslims, but I don't really understand the way in which he is seen (despite buying "Jesus in the Koran" a few years ago). I suspect it is an interesting complement to the Sunday school version of the gospels.

[Boojatta]

45. Have you considered making a DU Journal?

On three or four occasions I have made reference to the fruits of Islam and the consistent response from DU atheists has been to ignore/deny any Islamic contribution to civilization and immediately expect literal interpretation of the Quran and evoke 9/11.

It's difficult to avoid ignoring something if one doesn't have ready access to it. "Out of sight, out of mind."

[Random_Australian]

56. "the consistent response from DU atheists"

You know, while some would consider it reasonable, I must admit that I've never been a fan of "tell people what they believe rather than ask them". You wouldn't, perchance, care to explain your use of it, would you?

[Fed_Up_Grammy]

4. Islam wasn't around then.

[Buzz Clik]

5. I'm pretty sure Jesus was a Mormon.

[Xipe Totec]

9. If he wasn't then, he is now

In the Mormon faith, you can retroactively baptize your ancestors.

So, all you have to do is prove you're a direct descendant of Jesus and, Bingo! you can baptize him into the Mormon church.

I know, more than a few of my ancestors are now Mormons thanks to this escape clause, even though they were born, raised, and died Catholic, and are descendants of Sephardic Jews.

[Buzz Clik]

12. Outstanding! How do you think he'd look in a pair of black pants, white shirt, and tie?

"Elder Jesus"?

[Yael]

6. Islam wasn't invented until 632AD. I'll take no.

:hi:

[baldguy]

8. Jeeesus was an American!

[Somawas]

13. Who spoke English!

[baldguy]

15. Blond haired, blue-eyed

good Aryan stock

[sakabatou]

30. He also was muscular like Ah-nuld and carried an AK47

[baldguy]

31. If you hate America the Jesus will KICK YOUR ASS!!

[saltpoint]

10. I like a provocative religious poll now and then, and this one's a humdinger.

Thank you for posting it.

I don't think it's as likely that Jesus of Galilee could have been influenced by (or was a convert to) the belief system that became Islam as much as it may have been that he journeyed east and fell under the influence of the various religious ideas throughout India, for example.

Possibly a Buddhist influence there. Or possibly a wild jumble of other ideas.

It's odd that we don't (so far) have a record of where the guy got off to from his teen years to about his 30th or so year.

He must have been someplace.

[Why Syzygy]

20. He was in Egypt. n/t

[saltpoint]

28. Hi, votesomemore. Well, he could have been. His folks reportedly spent

a little time there early on...

He likely was a pretty smart guy and wanted to head out and see what the world was like.

[Crunchy Frog]

11. Was Jesus a Rastafarian? n/t

[TechBear_Seattle]

16. No, as Islam did not exit until six centuries latter

Anyway, he was a Jew, duh! :hi:

[Random_Australian]

21. Uh, why are you tying someone's religion to whether or not they had visited a place,

rather than what they believe?

Yes, I know about the whole Muslims-should-visit-Mecca-once-in-their-lifetimes thing.

[TZ]

33. Wow--great reply....

Thats like saying I can't possibly be Jewish because I have never been to Israel.....:thumbsup:

[Boojatta]

36. If I may be so bold as to reply to a statement not directed to me...

I do not know whether or not you are right to say "that's like saying" et cetera, but if I am sadly misinformed, then perhaps an older thread contributed a bit to this situation.

Near the beginning of this thread, DU member Kutjara wrote:

Islam doesn't require attendance at a mosque.

The Five Pillars of Islam (the criteria for deciding if someone is a Muslim) are:

Believing the Shahadah, the statement that there is no god but God and Mohammed is His Prophet.
Praying (Salah) five times per day, while facing the Kaaba in Mecca.
Giving Zakah (alms) to charity.
Ritual fasting (Sawm) during Ramadan
Making the Hajj (pilgrimage) to Mecca at least once.

If you do these things, you are a Muslim.

Are you willing to compose some words on this matter and post them in the thread referred to above?

[Random_Australian]

39. Ah, now your original poll is much clearer.

So you are more saying "can someone be a catholic without following the Pope?" (Or as applicable).

Ok, so it that case one needs the composite of both believing the correct things and going through some motions, so just one or the other will not count.

Would you please reference where you are coming from and perhaps explain your reasoning in future polls? I'm afraid without context, almost any statement can appear esoteric or unreasonably ambiguous.

[Boojatta]

40. I hope that this post will make things extra clear.

So you are more saying "can someone be a catholic without following the Pope?" (Or as applicable).

Sorry, but I cannot say "yes" to that. It doesn't matter what ideas about catholicism and the Pope that you might try to bring to the discussion by way of analogy. If you are going to talk about who is or isn't a Muslim, then you ultimately have to get back to the word "Muslim" and what it means.

If the word "Muslim" doesn't actually have any specific meaning, then perhaps it would be best to avoid it. In that case, it is not just this poll thread that is confusing, but any discussion that hinges upon the meaning of the word "Muslim." I encourage you to participate in this thread about a related word.

Would you please reference where you are coming from and perhaps explain your reasoning in future polls?

If the word "Muslim" lacks clear meaning, but is nevertheless being used frequently, then problems are inevitable. If I am creating threads that are case studies in some of these problems, then isn't that a good thing?

Please note that there are strict limits on how long an option in a poll may be. It would be difficult or inconvenient to provide, along with each poll option, a detailed argument in support of it. Although you may consider a particular poll option to be absurd, others may judge it differently. I try to provide a variety of options for people who vote in polls that I create.

[Random_Australian]

44. Ugh, not what I meant at all.

"Please note that there are strict limits on how long an option in a poll may be. It would be difficult or inconvenient to provide, along with each poll option, a detailed argument in support of it."

For instance, in this poll you don't appear to be asking about what the term Muslim means, but presuming some definition and asking people whether or not Jesus fit that definition.

When I meant provide context, I meant a few words at the start of the poll about the particular problem you are trying to address.

In this case, you might have said. "In thread zzz we were having a discussion about the meaning of the word Muslim, and I wonder if it is even properly defined. So, if I were to present the argument (for the sake of argument) that Jesus was a Muslim based on yyy, then would it be valid? What criteria do we use to judge, and why? Are we even talking about the same thing when we use the label?"

[Boojatta]

46. "I wonder if it is even properly defined."

Who cares what I wonder? People use the word "Muslim" without hesitation. If questioned, they can always make brief, sarcastic comments. If pressed, they can find a definition that supports their claims. The problem is that the various definitions are incompatible.

[Random_Australian]

48. Note: I was using an example. You did not have to use it word for word.

You did not have to use anything even remotely similar.

What I am talking about is explaining what you are getting at. In this case, you could have said "People use the word "Muslim" without hesitation. If questioned, they can always make brief, sarcastic comments. If pressed, they can find a definition that supports their claims. The problem is that the various definitions are incompatible."

and gone from there.

[Boojatta]

49. I couldn't have written that at the beginning.

I had to start this thread and observe the results.

Also, if I had somehow predicted the outcome, I suspect that there would be no shortage of people saying, "Stop obfuscating. We don't need boring discussions of word meanings. Just say something about Muslims and stop talking about the word 'Muslim'."

[Random_Australian]

50. Why could you not have written that at the beginning? If it is because you

had no concerns over the meaning of the word, then why start the poll?

If it was for some other reason, then how do the results of this thread change or interfere with that set of statements?

And do you not know that some of the longest arguments and flamewars were about word definitions? (Specifically the definition of atheism. Seriously, if I have to explain one more time about the whole "I may not be certain about the existence of God but my views on religion are not well described by "agnostic" one more time..... I think I'll be quite practiced)

[Boojatta]

52. I don't think that mere concerns over the meaning of the word

would have given me the idea of writing that at the beginning.

If it is because you had no concerns over the meaning of the word, then why start the poll?

I had concerns about the use of the word. Now my concern is that some people are motivated to associate the word "Muslim" with some person/concept etc. and other people are motivated to disassociate the word "Muslim" from some person/concept.

Polls are helpful. A poll sets up an idea that people can react to. People look for ways to justify their reactions. Different polls put forward different ideas that provoke different reactions.

It seems that in one particular thread (or one part of one particular thread), the word "Muslim" is assigned a temporary, disposable meaning primarily as a tactic to arrive at a pre-ordained conclusion.

[Random_Australian]

55. So you did have concerns about the meaning! And other concerns too!

Now we get to the very simple crux of the matter - yes, polls set up an idea that people can react to. Now, a poll with a couple of words of explanation as to what your concerns are - now that sounds like an improvement to me.

For what it is worth, the style you have set up here seems to not be getting so much in the way of answers - excepting a well-seconded "WTF?" - now, if you had put forward two situations first in which people use commonly accepted but inconsistent notions of the word "Muslim" - you would have an interesting discussion on your hands. :)

Whatcha think?

[Boojatta]

57. I have no regrets about this thread.

[Random_Australian]

58. Aye, but I still think you could get a much wider discussion by providing more to talk about.

And providing the necessary context. You might get the responses you are looking for this way, but it is impolite to create a discussion in which you get something and others get bewilderment, you know.

[TZ]

54. Yay!

I think I started an "depends on what your definition of is...is" argument!!
Thats a change of pace for me, but hey, not only am I beginning to get used to"stirring the pot" so to speak, I am giving R_A a chance to be "quite practiced"!!
:loveya: :popcorn: ;-)

[Boojatta]

37. Please see post #36 in this thread.

I encourage you to make a contribution to the thread referred to in post #36. You can simply follow the link. Thank you.

[and-justice-for-all]

22. Before I can answer.....

I first need some circumstancial evidence that he, indeed, existed. I for one, highly doubt he even existed.

[On the Road]

23. Dude, I Like Your Poll

although IMO "Christ" and the Mecca bit are out of place.

It's just as legitimate for Muslims to appropriate Jesus as it is for Christians to appropriate Isaiah or Moses.

Considering the transformation of Christianity beginning with Paul, a Muslim Jesus is probably a lot closer to the original. If you want to know what Jesus sounded like, his brother's epistle is probably the closest you can come. The one Martin Luther almost threw out of the Bible.

[Boojatta]

38. There are two quite different ways to "appropriate" Isaiah (for example).

People might make efforts to translate writings attributed to Isaiah; print books that contain as chapters both those writings and also some writings more central to a particular religion; sell or buy such books; and actually read them.

Alternatively, one might simply invoke the name "Isaiah", just as Lysenko invoked the word "science" in the process of promoting "Lysenkoism/Michurinism."

[On the Road]

47. What I Mean is That

Isaiah looks a certain way to Christians and has a certain meaning and place within Christianity. I expect it's very different from Isaiah's place in Judaism.

I don't know what Jesus looks like to Muslims -- what principles he stands for, what his character or purpose is, what sayings he is best known for. And it's strange because there's a lot about Jesus both in the Koran and in the history of Islam.

[Marrah_G]

25. Does visiting Mecca make you a Muslim?

[onager]

34. If you're not a Muslim, you CAN'T visit Mecca

I lived in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia for a little over 2 years. Mecca is not very far away. Sometimes on our day off we would take the highway from Jeddah to Mecca. There are some interesting things to see on that road, like a big camel market.

A few miles outside Mecca we had to make a U-turn. To enter Mecca, you must (1) live there or (2) have a special visa in your passport noting that you are making a pilgrimage. Saudi Arabia does not issue Tourist Visas, or at least it didn't when I lived there. You are either in the country working on a Business Visa, or you're a haji (pilgrim).

Every road into Mecca is heavily guarded by police/military checkpoints and they do not fool around. That's a legacy from the 1979 seizure of the Grand Mosque by heavily armed fundamentalists during a pilgrimage:

According to one source, French paratroopers were called in and they flooded and electrocuted the insurgents and hostages in the underground caves where they were hiding.

Lawrence Wright reports that only three Frenchmen were called in, members of the highly trained GIGN counter-terrorist squad.

Because non-Muslims are not allowed in the holy city, they converted to Islam in a brief formal ceremony by Saudi religious leaders.

Saudi officials deny the French actually entered Mecca.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Mosque_Seizure

Now that tickles my atheist heart. God may be great and all that, but apparently he's no substitute for massive firepower.

[Marrah_G]

35. Heh--- sort of like the Popemobile with bullet proof glass!

I SERIOUSLY ticked my mother off when I questioned that one at like age 12. She was NOT amused. (picture old fashioned, Boston, Irish, Catholic mother)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

26. No, because he lived 600 years before Mohammed?

:shrug:

That's the only answer that makes sense, but then Boojata has a reputation for weird polls.

[moggie]

27. Can you imagine life in the Boojatta household?

7 a.m.:

Given that sustenance is necessary for life, and taking into account both the extant diurnal situation and current western dietary habits, is "what shall we have for breakfast" a meaningful question at this point?

( ) None of the above
( ) Yes
( ) Waffles
( ) Drink your coffee, dear
( ) I like bacon

[Evoman]

29. !

:rofl:

[moobu2]

32. Was jesus even a christian?

No.

[Az]

41. This one depends on who you ask

According to Islamic teachings Jesus was a Muslim prophet. The bible according to them screws up the story about Jesus.

Basically in Islamic history everyone that had anything to say about the God of Abraham was a Muslim.

[Boojatta]

42. Did anybody accurately transcribe what was said?

Basically in Islamic history everyone that had anything to say about the God of Abraham was a Muslim.

[Az]

43. You don't have to have accuracy when you have faith and doctrinal authority on your side

Thats the fun thing about creating a religion. Whatever you claim is the absolute truth. And any that question it are doomed to Hell. So Jesus is claimed as a Muslim because they say he was a Muslim. Of course Christians would beg to differ and proclaim the Muslims to be heretics or infidels. Meanwhile the Jews simply claim he was just some guy.

[Igel]

51. Depends on your Jesus.

Mine wasn't. He was born a Jew, but wasn't likely to mess with what he gave Moses, unless he put an expiration date on something.

Now, there are Muslims who would argue otherwise. &category=Islam

"A question may arise as to earlier messages, which Islam confirms to have been given by God Almighty, such as those of Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them). The answer is simple: in their original forms, these messages were true and provided light and guidance." "Original forms", alluding to the corruption and apostasy that Jews and Christians are alleged to either have wilfully committed or fallen into, corrupting the writings containing an imperfect message. The Wahhabis are a gnat's wing from being takfiris as regards other "people of the book".

'... Jabir ibn Abdullah reports that Umar asked the Prophet: “We hear certain things from the Jews which we admire. Do you think that we should write some of these?” The Prophet said: “Are you to rush into wrong like the Jews and the Christians did? I have delivered it (i.e. God’s message) to you clear, without any blemish. Had Moses been alive today, he would have had no option other than to follow me.” (Related by Ahmad and Al-Baghawi).' Whether or not you accept the hadith depends mostly on your level of ego and exclusivity; but there it is, for those who want to believe. What's true of Moses would be no less true of Jesus.

Now, the Jesus I believe in wouldn't follow Muhammed any more than he'd hump a goat or break the Sabbath. It's not for nought that Byzantium at first viewed Islam as a Xian heresy (then again, I'm sure the Primitive Christians viewed Byzantium-style Xianity as a heresy). If you say that Pete is a dark-haired Jewish boy who attends college at U. Chicago, while I say that Pete is actually an red-haired Scottish haggis-maker outside Glasgow, we're obviously talking about different Petes, or at least providing irreconciliable attributes for the One True Pete--and arguably have different mental referents in mind. Perhaps one of us is insane, deluded, or wrong; perhaps both; but we cannot both be right, and short of producing Pete the dispute won't be resolved. But for someone to say that "my" Pete is obviously the same as the other's Pete, given just that information, is simply a display of overweening pride and arrogance bordering on idiocy.

Personally, I flip the reported words of Muhammed around: "We hear certain things from the Muslims which we admire. Do you think we should write some of these?" "Jesus said: Are you to rush into wrong like the Muslims did? I have delivered it to you clear, without any blemish. Had Muhammed believed, he would have had no option other than to follow me." Of course, there are more than a couple Muslims who would find that offensive and insist that such utterances be kept under wraps (at least), if not be a cause for a blasphemy trial (in a appropriate country showing proper tolerance and peace), while most Xians will find what's attributed to Muhammed to be perfectly ok or maybe a bit insensitive.

[tammywammy]

53. Jesus was a Jew

Mohamed lived hundreds of years after Jesus, though Jesus is a prophet in Islam.

[rayofreason]

59. Turned on its head!

Jesus was a Jew, plain and simple. Early Christians saw themselves as Jews also, and Jesus as someone who fulfilled the covenant with God.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them" Matthew 5:17

It was only under the influence of Paul that the early Christians agreed (after much discussion) to admit Gentiles without requiring circumcision or adherence to the dietary laws. So it is clear that Christianity emerged as a sect of Judaism, of which there were many in the 1st century. After the revolts, and the Roman wars to put them down, only a non-messianic branch of Pharisees, what we call Rabbinic Judaism, survived along with Christianity, which now saw itself as different from Judiasm (in part to avoid being tainted with the stigma of revolt). However, Christianity itself was far more diverse back then than it is now. Gnostics, Paulicians (Christian/Manicheans), and others thrived in the eastern

So where did Islam come from?

Recent work indicates that much of the Koran (specially the confusing bits) makes sense when considering Aramaic Christian texts of the time. In fact, some of the language is likely Aramaic, not Arabic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christoph_Luxenberg

Thus Islam came from a stream of Christianity, bringing with it the stories of the new testament, as well as elements of the Tanakh (which in turn contains Sumerian stories like the flood story, though now infused with a moral meaning). That is how these stories got there, and how Jesus got to be a Muslim prophet (along with Adam and Abraham).

Mohammed is thus best seen as a schismatic Christian prophet whose group declared themselves something different. And to establish legitimacy, they claim all that came before them. We see the same pattern with the less successful (and hated in Iran) Bahai faith that claimed to advance Islam. But Moslems don't like that because they claim Mohammed is the "seal" of the prophets.

[Boojatta]

60. For future reference: link to a related thread

Was Albert Einstein a Muslim?