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The Good, The Bad, and Everything in Between

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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 02:34 AM
Original message
The Good, The Bad, and Everything in Between
Edited on Tue Jul-10-07 02:35 AM by varkam
Recently I picked up a copy of The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil by Philip Zimbardo. This is not a review, but suffice it say that it is a book that I highly recommend. Anyway, one of Zimbardo's claims to fame is the Stanford Prison Experiment. I won't give a blow by blow account here, but for those uninformed I'll summarize it briefly:

Several undergraduate students at Stanford university were recruited by Zimbardo for a two week study on the psychology of imprisonment. They were randomly assigned to either be prison guards or prison inmates in the basement of the psychology building on Stanford's campus, which Zimbardo made into a makeshift jail. All of the participants were screened to ensure that they brought no psychopathology into the experiment, and people were excluded from participating on the basis of a criminal history. In short, everyone was ostensibly "normal". The experiment was slated to last two weeks, but was called off after less than one week.

What happened during the study was that the guards became increasingly brutal and authoritarian while the prisoners became increasingly docile and passive. Several of the prisoners suffered emotional break-downs and had to be released. One prisoner even went on a hunger strike to protest the treatment from the guards. Everyone involved with the project, from Zimbardo on down, lost touch with this as an experiment: it became a prison. In short, otherwise normal, healthy college kids were transformed into something entirely different.


Now, on the basis of that research (and replications that have been performed), the apparent conclusion is that situational influences can and do have a profound impact on moral decision-making ability and behavior - partially contradicting the western notion of a sort of immutable, individualistic morality (the proverbial "bad apples").

So what would you do? If you're like most people (myself included) you're probably thinking that you would never do such things. You wouldn't mistreat prisoners. You wouldn't deliver 400V of electricity to helpless victims (as fully 2/3 of participants believed they were doing in Stanley Milgram's studies on obedience). You would be the one standing in front of the tank at Tienanmen square.

Zimbardo fully expects that from most people, and relates the idea of a self-serving bias. That we would all think as such in order to protect our own egos and self-esteem. However, he also notes that, perhaps, entertaining such biases would actually make someone more vulnerable to situational manipulation because they are unaware of the forces acting on them.

After about half-way though the book, I read an editorial in my local paper about the book. It essentially stated that all people need to do in order to be good moral people, even in despicable situations, is to maintain a good relationship with god and that morality flows from that relationship.

After finishing the book, and after reading that editorial, I wondered a few things. First and least relevant to the R/T forums - isn't that completely missing the whole point of the book (if anyone else here has read it, please chime in)?

The main thing I wondered is this: is religion a moral "wedge"? When it comes to morality, people like to think in terms of "us" and "them" insofar as "we" are virtuous and "they" are depraved. Moral wedges come in different flavors, such as race, socio-economic status, nationality, mental illness, etc. It runs anathema to the notion of the "banality of evil". In short, such wedges allow us to ascribe some trait to the perpetrators of violence that clearly separates "them" from "us" when, in reality, we have a lot more in common than otherwise. So, I ask again, is religion a moral wedge?




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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 02:42 AM
Response to Original message
1. The idea of a wedge is key
It is exactly what enabled the guards to treat the prisoners so horribly. They were made to see them as something other than and less than their own group.

The way our basic concept of morality flows comes from a combination of our self and our sense of connection to others. We inherently understand what we consider good or bad for ourselves. And we are wired to extend empathy to those we feel connected to.

The problem is that sense of connectivity is flexible. It can be built up so that we feel more connected to individuals or groups or it can be dismantled so that we feel more removed or distant from them.

You are more likely to exhibit altruistic and empathetic tendencies to someone you are close to than you are to a stranger. And someone you consider to be a threat, hostile, or dangerous will elicit even less empathy.

It is for this reason that whenever a leader wants to go to war with another group they must first demonize them in the public eye. They cannot be seen as equals or even people. If they are then it is difficult to rally support to kill them.

Religion often finds itself in the position of creating wedge issues with which to demonize another group of people. Even the word demonize comes from religious connotations. Even if the core message of a dogmatic religion is concerned with peace it can still set people into camps opposing each other and that is the first step to hostility.

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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. In-group solidarity vs. out-group hostility
Edited on Tue Jul-10-07 08:41 PM by varkam
That's certainly one of the effects, whether intentional or not, of religions and other social groups where there is cohesion among the members. It automatically sets up a dichotomy of us vs. them. That false distinction automatically makes it easier to do things like dehumanize the out-group and diffuse moral responsibility among members of the in-group - as you pointed out.

You mention that you think religion "finds itself in the position of creating wedge issues", which I agree with. But I also wonder that if religion, in and of itself, is inherently a wedge.

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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
3. Read it.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=129640

I could barely get through parts of it. It was too much, ya know?
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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-11-07 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. I totally copied you.
My foot tastes pretty good.

:hide:

I do know what you mean, parts were pretty intense. I thought the book was pretty damn profound and had a lot to say not only about situational and systemic analyses, but human nature in general.
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
4. Oh and the author of that editorial....
Edited on Tue Jul-10-07 11:15 PM by Evoman
hasn't he ever seen the effects of religion over the past 2000 years? Hell, you ever looked at present time. You've got to be an absolute moron to not see how religion can be divisive and cause outgroup persecution.
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